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Pledge of Alleigance Unconstitutional??

edited September 2005 in Buddhism Today
Pledge of Alleigance Unconstitutional?? Some people consider that the pledge of alliegance is unconstitutional because it refers to God. In my opinion It doesnt matter because in American there is religious freedom so you can practice whatever you want. Some people who recite the pledge are of other religions anyway and practice them.

Comments

  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Given the history of this country, I wonder what "god" it is that we're under?

    I don't really like the idea of "under God" but then I don't think it's that big of a deal to me - so I don't worry about it - as long as there continues to be a separation of Church and State.

    The Pessimist.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Apparently, the Supreme Court have spoken on this Eisenhower addition to the Pledge. SCOTUS ruled, I am told (I may be able to find a reference, if I must) that the 'God' to which it refers is a 'State Deity'. by which I take them to mean that it is a general statement in the existence of a Supreme Being as understood by the individual. The said deity represents what the Chinese would have called the "mandate of Heaven". This would fit pretty well with the mindset of the 18th century rebels, although it could be argued that it is somewhat old-fashioned today.
  • edited September 2005
    Well, I personally didn't like saying the pledge even when I was Christian. I find it a hollow lie. Whether or not there is a deity, (s)he is definitely not the head of state. As an atheist, I find making kids lie on a daily basis about a deity they might not believe in ... well ... dumb. Not to mention the uselessness of making kids pledge allegiance to a country in the first place when they are too young to understand the impact of their words. It reminds me of my childhood as a Catholic having to recite the Nicene Creed.

    And yes, I do find it unconstitutional. I think it's very clear that the "God", capitalized and singular and male, that the pledge talks about is supposed to refer to the Abrahamic deity, and specifically to the Christian version. The fact that the pledge puts this country supposedly under the control of that specific deity seems like a prettty clear endorsement of that deity and his religion as THE state religion by the government.

    Of course, there are those that say it's tradition, the deity of the state, etc. and therefore ok. I find this an ironic twist seeing how many of the first Christians chose martyrdom instead of succumbing to public pressure to go through the motions of the Roman state religion. Granted, no one here is being killed for not saying the pledge yet, but the Roman state was actually quite tolerant to Christians at times. Things can change quickly, though.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited September 2005
    I think they should remove the pledge. It is another symbol that people cling to. Patriotism doesn't mean saying it.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2005
    An interesting perspective: http://www.borndigital.com/founders.htm

    I am personally neutral on the subject, however, I do see how certain people can be for or against it. From some of the things I have read about the Founding Fathers, such as the link I provided, I feel that many of them did believe in a "God", but that "God" was not strictly defined. I see it as a more personal interpretation of the Creator rather than the scripturally wrathful Yahweh. In light of this I would agree with DharmaKitten that it is unconstitutional. They clearly wanted church and state to be two completely entities.

    Unfortunately, all things are impermanent and even the Constitution will one day cease to be. I feel that the present day United States is a far cry from the vision that our Founding Fathers had. One of the main reasons for the Revolution was Britain's increasingly large taxes on various good and services, and yet today how many more taxes do we have? http://www.harlingen.isd.tenet.edu/coakhist/amrev.html

    As wonderful as this country was, and still is, it will not always be that way. The conditions for this country's greatness are fading into the sands of time, and eventually they will cease. One day America will pass into antiquity along with Sumer, Persia, Rome, ancient Egypt, along with countless others.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    As a Brit, I can understand offering allegiance to a person but to a flag?

    Anybody else remember the story of William Tell who would not bow to the dictator's hat?
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    ... Not to mention the uselessness of making kids pledge allegiance to a country in the first place when they are too young to understand the impact of their words. It reminds me of my childhood as a Catholic having to recite the Nicene Creed...

    Good point DK.

    I remember when I was a child - we had to stand up in class - along side our desks every morning to do this.

    For the longest time, I couldn't understand why being "invisible - under God" was so important or why he would want me invisible.

    I wonder if Hitler Youth had to stand up and recite a whole bunch of statements that they didnt understand...

    It is my understanding that if someone doesn't understand something or is too young to understand something - and everything they're saying - it doesn't amount to much.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    buddhafoot wrote:
    It is my understanding that if someone doesn't understand something or is too young to understand something - and everything they're saying - it doesn't amount to much.

    -bf


    IMHO it is a form of brainwashing.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005



    IMHO it is a form of brainwashing.

    You keep talking like that and you'll never make it Stateside, my friend...

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    If I am given a choice, I shall continue to speak my truth and dance my friends' wedding over here! It would be a poisoned present to give to them, as First Americans, if I were to bend the knee to the genocides.

    And I am opposed to brainwashing of our children by whomsoever, as, indeed, you have shown us that you are, too, BF. Let's free our children's minds: it may be the best thing we can do for the future of the planet.

    And isn't it fascinating that the 'pledge of allegiance' does not originate with the semi-divine Framers of the Constitution. And that the "under God" stuff was only added in the '50s, when the techniques of "brainwashing" were being studied and used by the combatants in the Korean conflict.

    I find it deeply worrying that our UK government is also considering some sort of oath of loyalty as part of the nationalisation process. To the Queen? To Tony Blair? or to the USA (sorry!)? Unacceptable!

    As one who will not take the oath in court (I affirm), I find the whole process distasteful - and deeply anti-Scriptural (altho' I've noticed that Christians are reluctant to see it).
  • edited September 2005
    buddhafoot wrote:
    I don't really like the idea of "under God" but then I don't think it's that big of a deal to me - so I don't worry about it - as long as there continues to be a separation of Church and State.

    The Pessimist.

    Hmmm...but is there really a separation of church and state in this country right now? I cerainly do not feel llike there is sometimes. If it were up to our current President, there would be no separation of church and state!

    I personally think the Pledge Of Allegience is silly.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Funny how, whenever we elect a President, their "Christian" beliefs always come into play.

    Could you imagive how far someone would get who stated they were an atheist?

    Zip.

    -bf
  • edited September 2005
    lol if someone in politics said they where atheist... it wouldnt be too pretty he would probably "mysteriously dissapear" if you know what I mean.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    More fertilizer for the corn in the Bible Belt.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    We have no difficulty with non- and atheist Members of Parliament, Lords, even priests and bishops!
  • edited September 2005
    Sadly it appears that every sports person, celebrity, oh and President has to show the world that they are Christian. Why do sports people constantly make the sign of the cross and thank God for their talents, it just sticks in my CRAW....whats God got to do with the Superbowl result.....my team never wins and George Bush is still in power....so much for God and the power of prayer :doh:

    Oh and is the Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional.....no idea, but it sounds sweet when small cute little children recite it :usflag:
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Abraham wrote:
    ... Why do sports people constantly make the sign of the cross and thank God for their talents, it just sticks in my CRAW....whats God got to do with the Superbowl result.....my team never wins and George Bush is still in power....

    Because, silly, God loves the two-point conversion.

    I mean, American Football is very religious. Haven't you ever heard of the "Hail Mary" or the "Immaculate Reception"?

    Both wonderful, God-fearing American Football terms.

    Not like Aussy football (with the guy in the butcher coat they wrangled in to play ref) or European Football also known, in the Latin, as "Sukkerus Wankus" - both sports of the Devil.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Oh Abraham!

    So did the Hitlerjugend when they sang the Horst Wessel Lied.

    Anything that stifles original thought and implants pre-packaged nationalism is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.

    The same goes for the bellowing of Jerusalem by the English crowds who have never read another word of Blake and do not recognise his call to socialism and free love!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Oh Abraham!

    So did the Hitlerjugend when they sang the Horst Wessel Lied.

    Anything that stifles original thought and implants pre-packaged nationalism is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.

    The same goes for the bellowing of Jerusalem by the English crowds who have never read another word of Blake and do not recognise his call to socialism and free love!

    What!?!?!

    Could you please explain both the Hitlerjugend and the bellowing of Jerusalem means?

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Hitlerjugend = Hitler Youth

    Jerusalem is being sung by English sports fans as a celebration of England. It is a poem by William Blake:
    And did those feet in ancient time
    Walk upon England's mountains green?
    And was the holy Lamb of God
    On England's pleasant pastures seen?

    And did the Countenance Divine
    Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
    And was Jerusalem builded here
    Among these dark Satanic mills?

    Bring me my bow of burning gold:
    Bring me my arrows of desire:
    Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
    Bring me my chariot of fire.

    I will not cease from mental fight,
    Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
    Till we have built Jerusalem
    In England's green and pleasant land.



  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2005
    They sang it on the final day of the Ashes, too.... and By Golly, EGad and Gadzooks, Me fellah - we won - !!
  • edited September 2005
    buddhafoot wrote:
    Funny how, whenever we elect a President, their "Christian" beliefs always come into play.

    Could you imagive how far someone would get who stated they were an atheist?

    Zip.

    -bf

    I think we are far far away from having an atheist president. First a woman, then maybe a Jew, then a Hispanic guy, then a black guy, then a minority woman, then a Jewish minority woman, then maybe a deist, then maybe - when they run out of people who want to be the president - including foreigners (after they change the constitution for Arnold) - maybe, just maybe, they'll punish an atheist with the job.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited September 2005
    The problem with all this pledge and non pledge stuff and most of th eproblems with political views is that if someone has a different idea than the majority they are considered anti-US. I get blamed all the tiome because I have a different view than most people. Makes me want to beat their ass but I don't. Frustrating really.
  • edited September 2005
    Abraham wrote:
    Why do sports people constantly make the sign of the cross and thank God for their talents, it just sticks in my CRAW....

    They do that to make up for the times they are out cheating on their wives. They think that if they "thank god" then it makes the cheating ok.

    I am joking, by the way.......
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