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The Tipitaka has guidance on how to spend your income - 25% to spend, 50% to invest in your store and 25% in savings. It's hardly of any value today.
Why? I personally follow this rule. Now. Today.
When reading or dealing with religious rules and ideas, it's invaluable to have the time and place of the religious rules and ideas in mind.
I disagree. Religious rules & ideas have a spiritual & social purpose. For example, in the same place the 25%, 50%, 25% rule is stated, it is also stated a husband & wife should be faithful to eachother. Watching pornography arguably trangresses faithfulness. Having sex with one's wife physically and thinking about some porno sex mentally is a kind of "mental adultery". This can potentially weaken faithfulness, trust & bonding in relationships (but not always).
Furthermore you should have your own cultural background in mind. Thus you will avoid drawing false conclusions or be deluded by worth- and meaningless babble.
There are at least two kinds of culture. One is social & another is spiritual (mental).
The porn/sex/masturbation-talk is a leftover from a period, where that talk was especially relevant.
I disagree. In the period you appear to be referring to, porn was hardly accessable. My mother & father would have never seen porn in their lives.
Porn/sex/masturbation talk is relevent to today. From the perspective of spiritual freedom, it is an obstacle.
Christianity is responsible for the over-focusing on sex in the west.
Mere rhetoric IMO.
Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it.
I have not had sex or masturbated in 20 years. Obviously your point is inaccurate.
I don't believe that even the most vigilant of monks never indulge in masturbation.
Now this believe of yours in definitely 100% incorrect.
For dedicated spiritual practitioners, it is not a matter of vigilance. It is a matter of moving on to another form of happiness. For a mature practitioner, moving on from sex is the same as a 15 year old boy who has moved on from playing with toy trucks in the sandpit and instead he starts chasing girls.
So for ones own sake, the issue is best left in its natural state - something to have a little time alone with.
Is the internet porn something that is of a "natural state" or is it technological development?
The "natural state" is quite a broad term.
I will also add, that I have a girlfriend who likes it rough enough - it's not only in movies you'll find that.
Indeed. Your views are very subjective. Time well tell what becomes of you and your girlfriend. What is sustainable lasts. That which is of essential worth will remain.
Generally, girlfriends like their boys committed. Sometimes they do different things to keep their teddy bear hooked.
I once had a girlfriend who liked things tender & intimate. I also once had a girlfriend who liked things which ever way she thought I would like things. In the end, they both were the same. They just wanted marriage & children & a man to look after them.
Many women boast about their [conditioned] extreme sexual needs but generally they have one thing in common.
On the other hand I accept core Buddhist teachings as The Four Noble Truths, The Noble Eightfold Path...
"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to stress, knowledge with reference to the origination of stress, knowledge with reference to the cessation of stress, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.
And what is right resolve? The resolve for renunciation, for freedom from ill will, for harmlessness: This is called right resolve.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
"And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing & from sexual misconduct: This is called right action.
"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
I will add that I do not support the exploitation of women or men. I will also add, that I have a girlfriend who likes it rough enough - it's not only in movies you'll find that.
Maybe your girlfriend thinks she is in a movie?
You are saying the movies represent your girlfriend but maybe it is the opposite?
Have you ever noticed people, especially young & impression ones, follow what they see & read in the media, on TV, in the movies, etc?
This is called "pop culture". It is a little like Jesus and his sheep. There are different kinds of sheep.
It is meant for appliance in a society where people are self-sustaining in family groups. Of course you can apply that simple, economic plan given you have a shop or other personal entrepreneurship going where the model is applicable. In the modern world there is a multitude of different ways to form companies and lead them, where this would not be wise. If I myself was to follow it, I would not have money to pay my apartment, or I would not have money to buy food, or books for my studies. My rent is more than 50% of my income in itself, add thereto the monthly bills.
Watching pornography arguably trangresses faithfulness. Having sex with one's wife physically and thinking about some porno sex mentally is a kind of "mental adultery".
It is only unfaithfulness if you have an agreement that such behavior is not ok.
There are at least two kinds of culture. One is social & another is spiritual (mental).
You will have to elaborate on this. I have a feeling that we might use the term "culture" a little differently from each other. I mean culture as in human society, the classic, dictionary-way. I haven't heard of other kinds of culture (only plants on a farm, but I guess we agree that isn't relevant )
Porn/sex/masturbation talk is relevent to today. From the perspective of spiritual freedom, it is an obstacle.
Sorry. Of course it is relevant today. All the talk about how "filthy" it is, is not necessary and only demeans people unnecessarily for being human. I agree that it is an obstacle on the path to spiritual freedom.
I have not had sex or masturbated in 20 years. Obviously your point is inaccurate. ... and forward...
Ok, I will take your word for it and admit I might have been a bit hasty.
Is the internet porn something that is of a "natural state" or is it technological development?
The "natural state" is quite a broad term.
Last thing first: "the natural" is the only existing state. Humans can bend naturally occurring material to their liking, but they cannot invent something which the world did not make possible in the first place. Therefore Internet porn is natural, and the Internet in itself too. It might be artificial though. As RenGalskap has explained, what porn is varies from culture to culture, person to person. It's in the eyes of the beholder. The ancient Greeks had lots of highly detailed pictures showing humans having sex - it might have been considered porn at the time. It is here and will always be.
That it's an obstacle on the path to Nibbana because it's of a sensual nature does not make it less natural, nor more condemnable for the non-seeker to indulge in.
I for instance, have no intention of striving for Nibbana, I just wanna be happy.
Indeed. Your views are very subjective. Time well tell what becomes of you and your girlfriend. What is sustainable lasts. That which is of essential worth will remain.
We're both 20 years old and have been together for the last six years this very Saturday. We are very much in love.
Generally, girlfriends like their boys committed. Sometimes they do different things to keep their teddy bear hooked.
That might hold true to some, but the fact in this case is that I like it softer. We've been together our whole youth and now into our adulthood, and we are "in tune".
The way you have sex is not the business of either religion or other people, it's simply meaningless. Not necessary to mention that all involved must be mature and willing.
That sex and partnership is essentially about making babies can hardly shock anyone - if not overly-romantic, self-alienated prudes (this may sound harsher than it's meant).
In response to the posts I did not see being posted, as I was answering to the first, long one by DD:
Please do not attack my private life further, and please do not assume that I am interested in living like a monk. You are a tad too aggressive in imposing your wide array of rules on me. I am a lay practitioner if anything, and have never claimed to be otherwise. It is possible that you are very devout, but accept that not all people want to live like you do.
Generally, girlfriends like their boys committed. Sometimes they do different things to keep their teddy bear hooked.
I've talked to a couple of women who were bottoms and looking for a male partner. As one of them put it, she was looking for a man who would get sexually aroused from spanking her to the point of bruising her. Neither had any reason to lie to me about this, since both were aware that I'm not into BDSM.
We all try to accommodate our partners sexual desires, but I doubt that anyone could handle a long term BDSM relationship unless it was really what they wanted.
They just wanted marriage & children & a man to look after them.
I know lots of women who want that. But I also know of women who don't want to be tied down to a single partner. And I know women who don't want children.
Have you ever noticed people, especially young & impression ones, follow what they see & read in the media, on TV, in the movies, etc?
There are people who are attracted because they think it's cool, and there are people who are attracted because it's what they really want. It's the second group that forms the core of a sexual community. Without them, there would be nothing for the first group to be attracted to.
It is meant for appliance in a society where people are self-sustaining in family groups.
It was for those who carried on a business. The Buddha generally taught upper classes.
However it does give a fitting example of financial plan & prudence.
I would not have money to pay my apartment, or I would not have money to buy food, or books for my studies. My rent is more than 50% of my income in itself, add thereto the monthly bills.
That is your karma.
It is only unfaithfulness if you have an agreement that such behavior is not ok.
The impression you give is sex does not have an emotional content or any kind of moral commitment.
Sorry. Of course it is relevant today. All the talk about how "filthy" it is, is not necessary and only demeans people unnecessarily for being human. I agree that it is an obstacle on the path to spiritual freedom.
Only you mentioned the word "filthy". I am concerned with suffering & happiness.
That it's an obstacle on the path to Nibbana because it's of a sensual nature does not make it less natural, nor more condemnable for the non-seeker to indulge in.
Nature is two fold: dukkha nature and buddha nature.
It is not about seekers & non-seekers. It is about dukkha.
I for instance, have no intention of striving for Nibbana, I just wanna be happy.
That is very contradictory because Nibbana is happiness (Nibbanam paranam sukkham). You mean you wish to get excited about sex? You mean the pleasure of pleasure?
We're both 20 years old and have been together for the last six years this very Saturday. We are very much in love.
Therefore what does porno and doing it rough have to do with anything? Are porno movies about love & commitment? What would happen if your internet broke down or she injured herself and could not "do it rough" for a while? Would you still be in love?
That is not karma, it's called being a student and choosing an apartment which looks nice in a big city.
The impression you give is sex does not have an emotional content or any kind of moral commitment.
No, I give the impression that adult people themselves choose what is appropriate for them based on their feelings and preferences. If they are not honest with themselves, it's really not any of our problem or business.
Only you mentioned the word "filthy". I am concerned with suffering & happiness.
It was in relation to my views on the Christian church and it's influence on the way sex is seen in the Western world - sex is given way too much time and space and way too much guilt.
Therefore what does porno and doing it rough have to do with anything? Are porno movies about love & commitment?
Nothing. But still you got a problem with it, and I don't....
What would happen if your internet broke down or she injured herself and could not "do it rough" for a while? Would you still be in love?
You need to re-read my last post, I did in fact anticipate this response.
That is very contradictory because Nibbana is happiness (Nibbanam paranam sukkham). You mean you wish to get excited about sex? You mean the pleasure of pleasure?
It is not. I could live without sex, it's not a matter of difficulty but of option. If my arms fell off and I lost my girlfriend I would live without sex and just deal with it. I like to listen to good music, but if I became def I would deal with that. Maybe in your monastic world one has to pull a lot of ascetic rules on oneself, well I don't. I gladly take what the world bestows upon me, and I do not cry for what I'm not given.
Thus I experience both the happiness of the one who receives and the one who is complacent.
Furthermore I do not go out and judge people for the way they live. You could try and live on the bottom of the Atlantic for all I care, as long as it's what you've chosen for yourself. I think all humans are equal and have equal right to live and seek happiness in the way they want. This does not entail infringing the rights of others. Accepting the attack on rights is not protecting the basic, human rights. As far as I understood, Buddha taught a way which you could follow or not, or follow part of as you see fit - and he did not force it on anyone.
being a student and choosing an apartment which looks nice in a big city
is karma or intentional action...
No, I give the impression that adult people themselves choose what is appropriate for them based on their feelings and preferences. If they are not honest with themselves, it's really not any of our problem or business.
I cannot disagree with you here. But your original post sounded like it was gospel truth. My personal feelings is pornography is not only crap but its adherents are like brainwashed sheep; that it is more advantageous to be a brainwashed catholic than a brainwashed porno addict. To me your original post sounded like you were the leader of a pornographic cult.
It was in relation to my views on the Christian church and it's influence on the way sex is seen in the Western world - sex is given way too much time and space and way too much guilt.
I was raised with Catholic influences. It did not notice any guilt. Is your view something real, you have experienced...or just some propaganda you read.
The Catholic Church likes its members to make many children so obviously they are not anti-sex.
Nothing. But still you got a problem with it, and I don't....
I am not promoting the virtues of pornography, as tho it leads to happiness rather than dukkha
no problems here
It is not. I could live without sex...
how do you know?
many monks & nuns try to live without sex but then ending up disrobing & taking up with eachother
the list is quite long...
Furthermore I do not go out and judge people for the way they live.
You don't? You certainly judged the Catholic Church alot, which is a body of people. You judged the whole of humanity when you said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it."
You could try and live on the bottom of the Atlantic for all I care, as long as it's what you've chosen for yourself. I think all humans are equal and have equal right to live and seek happiness in the way they want.
I have not noticed any apart from yourself speaking otherwise. You said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it".
As far as I understood, Buddha taught a way which you could follow or not, or follow part of as you see fit - and he did not force it on anyone.
I almost agree totally here.
But the Buddha did not really teach "a way". He did not his way was about "following". His way was about understanding dukkha and true happiness rather than just "following a way of behaviour".
As a feminist, I think so yes. It pigeon holes women into being "breeders".
As a "feminist", your views would generally not represent the reality of most women.
As a "feminist", your views would be an extreme fringe element.
In my opinion, it is best to be a "Buddhist" rather than a "feminist".
A "Buddhist" can live differently from the norm rather try to identify themselves with the norm and consider themselves a spokeperson for the norm.
The vast majority of women breed. Now I stand up in my office and can see 14 women. One is not ready to breed, two will not breed, another says she will not breed (but probably will - following partners wishes) and ten have already breed.
Obviously, whatever you regard your views to be, they do not represent the majority of women.
Feminist is like a communist. The majority of the community are not interested in communism yet the communists call themselves "communists", even though they do not represent the community.
I have found from my own experience (as a woman) that the majority of women I've met, both in my career and in private, do seem to prefer to have a partner and children rather than live alone.
I have found from my own experience (as a woman) that the majority of women I've met, both in my career and in private, do seem to prefer to have a partner and children rather than live alone.
Most men prefer not to live alone also. And most of them seem to want children also, although it's frequently not quite as high on their list of priorities as it is with women. For the most part, I think the differences between what men want and what women want are overemphasized.
In my opinion, it is best to be a "Buddhist" rather than a "feminist".
Feminism is a political stance about the equality between men and women, something Buddhism doesn't have that great a record on, though better than the other extant world religions.
Feminism is a political stance about the equality between men and women, something Buddhism doesn't have that great a record on, though better than the other extant world religions.
I disagree here plus your point is irrelevent to the discussion.
It is a matter of empathy.
So what is the general female condition?
Wishing for things like family &/or commitment or wishing for pornographic experiences?
That erotic display of panda bears and barbie has scarred me for life :eek:
Seriously I think porn and masturbation are not different from a hot bath and a story. Its the shenpa {hooking... poor translation is attachment} that is the problem. The antidote isn't to have a strong reactionary rigid thinking but rather increased mindfulness. Be mindful when you masturbate or have a brownie hot bath drinks whatever..
Just jacking off will not leave somebody psychologically scarred. It is nothing more than a nocturnal emission.
The shenpa however can and has caused people to jack off so much that blood is coming out. True story from a friend who was a therapist. Shenpa is the scabies that you are itching and you keep scratching until you are bleeeding..
If you feel the need to masturbate? Congratulations you have an opportunity to be mindful and confront the shenpa. This is your manure for your garden.
Feminism is a political stance about the equality between men and women, something Buddhism doesn't have that great a record on, though better than the other extant world religions.
Yeah, that's what the dictionary defines it as - but have you ever actually TRIED to reason with a feminist?
That erotic display of panda bears and barbie has scarred me for life :eek:
Seriously I think porn and masturbation are not different from a hot bath and a story. Its the shenpa {hooking... poor translation is attachment} that is the problem.
If one is making karma, one is already attached.
Just jacking off will not leave somebody psychologically scarred. It is nothing more than a nocturnal emission.
Jacking off is karma. It has a disturbing & addictive effect within the body & mind. It does not release tension but merely temporarily moves tension from one part of the body/mind into another.
Nocturnal emission is purging & purification. It is actual release. It is not karma.
I am not being critical of masturbation. I am just saying it is different to nocturnal emission.
I don't see a difference between masturbating and nocturnal emission. You could claim that voluntary acts can also be purging and purifying. Like taking a shower or bath. I feel good when I do those.
At the same time even the bath can have shenpa with it.
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that all volitional action implies attachment? Eating food, buying groceries, listening to a dhamma talk, etc. necessarily implies attachment?
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that all volitional action implies attachment? Eating food, buying groceries, listening to a dhamma talk, etc. necessarily implies attachment?
No.
But when the root of motivation is lust and that lust is acted out, that is attachment.
Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset ;" class="alt2"> Originally Posted by Jeffrey You could claim that voluntary acts can also be purging and purifying. Like taking a shower or bath. I feel good when I do those.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Murdering another human being is a 'voluntary act'.
What? For me bathing and tying my shoes does not involve murder. Nor does masturbation.
In that sense correct. But I don't think they are different in a moral sense.
coughing and clearing the throat are different. One is voluntary and one is involuntary. We have that established. But I don't agree that coughing is better than clearing the throat just on the basis of being involuntary. Likewise I do not believe that masturbation is worse than a nocturnal emission on the basis of being voluntary.
I have already stated that I feel the shenpa is the problem. I think lust is the translation of same thing. Attachment.
So I think the lust is the problem. Not the fact that your body experienced an orgasm.
I also believe it is possible to have good experiences without lust. You can enjoy morning coffee and it can be a nice thing for your life. For someone else who morning coffee has a lot of lust or shenpa there can be a lot of suffering with the same practice.
Don't you have any things you do that you enjoy? Like wearing a pair of socks that you like? Does everything have to be a big deal? For some people masturbation isn't a big deal. Some people it is terrible and they do it so much they bleed!
masturbation is probably in most cases a karma-generating act, but i think it's a bit far-fetched to generalize all cases to have a "disturbing and addictive effect" as you say deedee, you might as well say the same thing for eating a sandwich..
sometimes, you can genuinely have some good old fashioned manual love making with yourself free of attachment and free of *dirty* lust. from a buddhist perspective, a specific buddhist perspective like the one deedee is coming from, all sexual acts are considered lust and attachment (to existence).... but lust is being used practically as a pejorative term and i don't know if that's appropriate....
i don't know what you're talking about. i've had plenty of sexual experiences where sex is just sex, sweet and easy and no attachment, even the more lonely experiences with just me and myself and old righty here have been just fine
well, some of them
but be careful with the masturbatory temperament of response, it kind of makes me feel like my flesh is being eaten by a vulture
take it easy on here
It's necessary if you don't want mold on your walls, and an education. Which is of course worldly, sensual-based problems...
I was raised with Catholic influences. It did not notice any guilt. Is your view something real, you have experienced...or just some propaganda you read.
I mean the way Christians (the only anti-sex - (yes anti-sex - apart from in a marriage for the sake of making babies) religion gaining major influence in Europe and maintaining it for hundreds of years. Neither Romans, Vikings or the Ancient Greek had any problems with sex. They even had gods for it) in the past criminalized sex have an influence on us, today. The Christian church is based on guilt, and the only way out is to have faith in Christ (Lutherans) or live correctly (Catholics).
how do you know?
many monks & nuns try to live without sex but then ending up disrobing & taking up with eachother
the list is quite long...
Yes, but they have a choice still. I never said I would, but I do know that sex is not vital for maintaining life. As said, if I had no partner and no arms, then I would have to live without sex. And I'm not the least doubting that I would still have a fine life.
You don't? You certainly judged the Catholic Church alot, which is a body of people. You judged the whole of humanity when you said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it."
No, I said that the Christians are guilty of tabooing sex in the West. Your average Catholic is not to blame or look down upon - and I wouldn't. I would never tell them that they are wrong, or shouldn't live their life as they do. But that does not mean that history is any different, or that I personally will have their rules pressed unto me.
There's a difference between criticize ideas and dogmas, and then people. You go for the ball, not the man. All have equal rights and worth as humans, but of course any idea is not equally good.
I have not noticed any apart from yourself speaking otherwise. You said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it".
First of all I don't see how that conflicts with the ethic standpoint, that all humans are born free and equal. Second of all I've already confessed that I was a bit too hasty in my conclusions, saying that.
Nice to read your posts & chat
Sure, you too:) You obviously know a lot about Buddhism, and it's always inspiring to debate with someone with an apparently quite different take on life ...
Many women boast about their [conditioned] extreme sexual needs but generally they have one thing in common.
Are you speaking for all women in the world DD? If you do, then I have to say that you are mistaken. I am a woman who doesn't want to have sex with the hope of having children. If I have sex I have sex for pleasure.
As said, if I had no partner and no arms, then I would have to live without sex.
Well someone just isn't very creative, then.
Are you speaking for all women in the world DD? If you do, then I have to say that you are mistaken. I am a woman who doesn't want to have sex with the hope of having children. IfI have sex I have sex for pleasure.
Manywomen boast about their [conditioned] extreme sexual needs but generally they have one thing in common.
i am not professional but i think it is normal for lay people i don't care what monks think cuz i am not monk therefore i won't understand monk's advice n way of perceiving reality
i think as long as u have postive people to support u and u improve urself daily is ok. cuz i used to set my standard so high, that my reality n dream were far distance from each other. at that time, religion didn't help me i am a tibetan buddhist, i have pretty good knowledge of buddhism, but my parents n sister helped me i am sorry again, i think buddhism helped me indirectly cuz my dad listens to h.h. dalai lama so much that helped him realise and understand my behaviour problem n helped me improve and change.
so thank you buddhist again but don't forget to use ur brain, cuz if u put too much pressure in ur brain, n u achieve nothing make u feel messed up n guilt n more suffering, it doesnot matter who is right and who is wrong but it matter if u r using ur mind more wisely and smartly to survive and help others.
i heard of many monks who have abondoned their monastery n married women
If you do, then I have to say that you are mistaken. I am a woman who doesn't want to have sex with the hope of having children. If I have sex I have sex for pleasure.
Right view leads to samadhi, insight, dispassion & Nibbana.
:om:
"It has been said by the Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Fully Self-enlightened One: 'Come, monks, whatever woman is a mother, think of her just as a mother; whatever woman is a sister, think of her just as a sister; whatever woman is a daughter, think of her just as a daughter. That is how these young monks... can practice the holy life... to the end of their days.'"
Comments
I disagree. Religious rules & ideas have a spiritual & social purpose. For example, in the same place the 25%, 50%, 25% rule is stated, it is also stated a husband & wife should be faithful to eachother. Watching pornography arguably trangresses faithfulness. Having sex with one's wife physically and thinking about some porno sex mentally is a kind of "mental adultery". This can potentially weaken faithfulness, trust & bonding in relationships (but not always).
There are at least two kinds of culture. One is social & another is spiritual (mental).
I disagree. In the period you appear to be referring to, porn was hardly accessable. My mother & father would have never seen porn in their lives.
Porn/sex/masturbation talk is relevent to today. From the perspective of spiritual freedom, it is an obstacle.
Mere rhetoric IMO.
I have not had sex or masturbated in 20 years. Obviously your point is inaccurate.
Now this believe of yours in definitely 100% incorrect.
For dedicated spiritual practitioners, it is not a matter of vigilance. It is a matter of moving on to another form of happiness. For a mature practitioner, moving on from sex is the same as a 15 year old boy who has moved on from playing with toy trucks in the sandpit and instead he starts chasing girls.
Is the internet porn something that is of a "natural state" or is it technological development?
The "natural state" is quite a broad term.
Indeed. Your views are very subjective. Time well tell what becomes of you and your girlfriend. What is sustainable lasts. That which is of essential worth will remain.
Generally, girlfriends like their boys committed. Sometimes they do different things to keep their teddy bear hooked.
I once had a girlfriend who liked things tender & intimate. I also once had a girlfriend who liked things which ever way she thought I would like things. In the end, they both were the same. They just wanted marriage & children & a man to look after them.
Many women boast about their [conditioned] extreme sexual needs but generally they have one thing in common.
:smilec:
Is it 2010 where you are?
The photos are from 2010 or there abouts.
So tell us. Where is your mind?
In which realm does it dwell?
:smilec:
:smilec:
You are saying the movies represent your girlfriend but maybe it is the opposite?
Have you ever noticed people, especially young & impression ones, follow what they see & read in the media, on TV, in the movies, etc?
This is called "pop culture". It is a little like Jesus and his sheep. There are different kinds of sheep.
Different people can have different sexual tastes in private. What is the point of mentioning this ?
.
.
Our new friend has a girlfriend that likes it rough.
A little play in the mud.
But if our friend leaves her, dumps her....how is her mind?
A girl who has been with our new friend since they were 14 years old.
Do you think she will be heart broken?
Are you sure people in 2010 are different from the year 10?
It is only unfaithfulness if you have an agreement that such behavior is not ok.
You will have to elaborate on this. I have a feeling that we might use the term "culture" a little differently from each other. I mean culture as in human society, the classic, dictionary-way. I haven't heard of other kinds of culture (only plants on a farm, but I guess we agree that isn't relevant
Sorry. Of course it is relevant today. All the talk about how "filthy" it is, is not necessary and only demeans people unnecessarily for being human. I agree that it is an obstacle on the path to spiritual freedom.
Ok, I will take your word for it and admit I might have been a bit hasty.
Last thing first: "the natural" is the only existing state. Humans can bend naturally occurring material to their liking, but they cannot invent something which the world did not make possible in the first place. Therefore Internet porn is natural, and the Internet in itself too. It might be artificial though. As RenGalskap has explained, what porn is varies from culture to culture, person to person. It's in the eyes of the beholder. The ancient Greeks had lots of highly detailed pictures showing humans having sex - it might have been considered porn at the time. It is here and will always be.
That it's an obstacle on the path to Nibbana because it's of a sensual nature does not make it less natural, nor more condemnable for the non-seeker to indulge in.
I for instance, have no intention of striving for Nibbana, I just wanna be happy.
We're both 20 years old and have been together for the last six years this very Saturday. We are very much in love.
That might hold true to some, but the fact in this case is that I like it softer. We've been together our whole youth and now into our adulthood, and we are "in tune".
The way you have sex is not the business of either religion or other people, it's simply meaningless. Not necessary to mention that all involved must be mature and willing.
That sex and partnership is essentially about making babies can hardly shock anyone - if not overly-romantic, self-alienated prudes (this may sound harsher than it's meant).
Please do not attack my private life further, and please do not assume that I am interested in living like a monk. You are a tad too aggressive in imposing your wide array of rules on me. I am a lay practitioner if anything, and have never claimed to be otherwise. It is possible that you are very devout, but accept that not all people want to live like you do.
It has been mentioned earlier, that porn does not depict reality, which is not always correct
A realm in which femininity is respected and valuable...
We all try to accommodate our partners sexual desires, but I doubt that anyone could handle a long term BDSM relationship unless it was really what they wanted.
I know lots of women who want that. But I also know of women who don't want to be tied down to a single partner. And I know women who don't want children.
There are people who are attracted because they think it's cool, and there are people who are attracted because it's what they really want. It's the second group that forms the core of a sexual community. Without them, there would be nothing for the first group to be attracted to.
However it does give a fitting example of financial plan & prudence.
That is your karma.
The impression you give is sex does not have an emotional content or any kind of moral commitment.
Only you mentioned the word "filthy". I am concerned with suffering & happiness.
Nature is two fold: dukkha nature and buddha nature.
It is not about seekers & non-seekers. It is about dukkha.
That is very contradictory because Nibbana is happiness (Nibbanam paranam sukkham). You mean you wish to get excited about sex? You mean the pleasure of pleasure?
Therefore what does porno and doing it rough have to do with anything? Are porno movies about love & commitment? What would happen if your internet broke down or she injured herself and could not "do it rough" for a while? Would you still be in love?
So is acknowledging the still general inclination of woman to bear children 'femininity disrespected and considered not valuable'?
No, I give the impression that adult people themselves choose what is appropriate for them based on their feelings and preferences. If they are not honest with themselves, it's really not any of our problem or business.
It was in relation to my views on the Christian church and it's influence on the way sex is seen in the Western world - sex is given way too much time and space and way too much guilt.
Nothing. But still you got a problem with it, and I don't....
You need to re-read my last post, I did in fact anticipate this response.
It is not. I could live without sex, it's not a matter of difficulty but of option. If my arms fell off and I lost my girlfriend I would live without sex and just deal with it. I like to listen to good music, but if I became def I would deal with that. Maybe in your monastic world one has to pull a lot of ascetic rules on oneself, well I don't. I gladly take what the world bestows upon me, and I do not cry for what I'm not given.
Thus I experience both the happiness of the one who receives and the one who is complacent.
Furthermore I do not go out and judge people for the way they live. You could try and live on the bottom of the Atlantic for all I care, as long as it's what you've chosen for yourself. I think all humans are equal and have equal right to live and seek happiness in the way they want. This does not entail infringing the rights of others. Accepting the attack on rights is not protecting the basic, human rights. As far as I understood, Buddha taught a way which you could follow or not, or follow part of as you see fit - and he did not force it on anyone.
You were talking about women and girlfriends in the bits I replied to.
As a feminist, I think so yes. It pigeon holes women into being "breeders".
I cannot disagree with you here. But your original post sounded like it was gospel truth. My personal feelings is pornography is not only crap but its adherents are like brainwashed sheep; that it is more advantageous to be a brainwashed catholic than a brainwashed porno addict. To me your original post sounded like you were the leader of a pornographic cult.
I was raised with Catholic influences. It did not notice any guilt. Is your view something real, you have experienced...or just some propaganda you read.
The Catholic Church likes its members to make many children so obviously they are not anti-sex.
I am not promoting the virtues of pornography, as tho it leads to happiness rather than dukkha
no problems here
how do you know?
many monks & nuns try to live without sex but then ending up disrobing & taking up with eachother
the list is quite long...
You don't? You certainly judged the Catholic Church alot, which is a body of people. You judged the whole of humanity when you said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it."
I have not noticed any apart from yourself speaking otherwise. You said: "Sex and masturbation is an integral part of being human, and theres no way to escape it".
I almost agree totally here.
But the Buddha did not really teach "a way". He did not his way was about "following". His way was about understanding dukkha and true happiness rather than just "following a way of behaviour".
Kind regards
Nice to read your posts & chat
As a "feminist", your views would be an extreme fringe element.
In my opinion, it is best to be a "Buddhist" rather than a "feminist".
A "Buddhist" can live differently from the norm rather try to identify themselves with the norm and consider themselves a spokeperson for the norm.
The vast majority of women breed. Now I stand up in my office and can see 14 women. One is not ready to breed, two will not breed, another says she will not breed (but probably will - following partners wishes) and ten have already breed.
Obviously, whatever you regard your views to be, they do not represent the majority of women.
Feminist is like a communist. The majority of the community are not interested in communism yet the communists call themselves "communists", even though they do not represent the community.
.
Feminism is a political stance about the equality between men and women, something Buddhism doesn't have that great a record on, though better than the other extant world religions.
It is a matter of empathy.
So what is the general female condition?
Wishing for things like family &/or commitment or wishing for pornographic experiences?
:smilec:
Seriously I think porn and masturbation are not different from a hot bath and a story. Its the shenpa {hooking... poor translation is attachment} that is the problem. The antidote isn't to have a strong reactionary rigid thinking but rather increased mindfulness. Be mindful when you masturbate or have a brownie hot bath drinks whatever..
Just jacking off will not leave somebody psychologically scarred. It is nothing more than a nocturnal emission.
The shenpa however can and has caused people to jack off so much that blood is coming out. True story from a friend who was a therapist. Shenpa is the scabies that you are itching and you keep scratching until you are bleeeding..
If you feel the need to masturbate? Congratulations you have an opportunity to be mindful and confront the shenpa. This is your manure for your garden.
If one is making karma, one is already attached.
Jacking off is karma. It has a disturbing & addictive effect within the body & mind. It does not release tension but merely temporarily moves tension from one part of the body/mind into another.
Nocturnal emission is purging & purification. It is actual release. It is not karma.
I am not being critical of masturbation. I am just saying it is different to nocturnal emission.
Nocturnal emission is like menstruating.
:smilec:
You are a man, correct?
At the same time even the bath can have shenpa with it.
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that all volitional action implies attachment? Eating food, buying groceries, listening to a dhamma talk, etc. necessarily implies attachment?
But when the root of motivation is lust and that lust is acted out, that is attachment.
What? For me bathing and tying my shoes does not involve murder. Nor does masturbation.
All I am saying is it is different than masturbation.
:smilec:
I have to agree on this one. Very different things. Nocturnal emissions you have zero control over and they don't involve volitional lust.
coughing and clearing the throat are different. One is voluntary and one is involuntary. We have that established. But I don't agree that coughing is better than clearing the throat just on the basis of being involuntary. Likewise I do not believe that masturbation is worse than a nocturnal emission on the basis of being voluntary.
I have already stated that I feel the shenpa is the problem. I think lust is the translation of same thing. Attachment.
So I think the lust is the problem. Not the fact that your body experienced an orgasm.
I also believe it is possible to have good experiences without lust. You can enjoy morning coffee and it can be a nice thing for your life. For someone else who morning coffee has a lot of lust or shenpa there can be a lot of suffering with the same practice.
Don't you have any things you do that you enjoy? Like wearing a pair of socks that you like? Does everything have to be a big deal? For some people masturbation isn't a big deal. Some people it is terrible and they do it so much they bleed!
Special thanks to Windy Hills Nursing Home for letting me use one of their patients as a model...
And thanks to this guy I found on the street... Such a lovely man.
sometimes, you can genuinely have some good old fashioned manual love making with yourself free of attachment and free of *dirty* lust. from a buddhist perspective, a specific buddhist perspective like the one deedee is coming from, all sexual acts are considered lust and attachment (to existence).... but lust is being used practically as a pejorative term and i don't know if that's appropriate....
I was talking about the psycho/physiological effect. In that way, they are different.
"dirty" is in your mind...
i am concerned with suffering & its cessation
most sexual acts are lust and attachment
it does not mean they are immoral acts
when one is masturbating, both mind & hand are certainly attached to something under the power of lust
why deny it?
generally, most human beings have a need to "cool off" their natural psycho/physiological sexual desires
you are way off the mark here
lust is craving...engaging in it is attachment
the impression you give is your mind is caught up in kinds of denial & superstitions about it
well, some of them
but be careful with the masturbatory temperament of response, it kind of makes me feel like my flesh is being eaten by a vulture
take it easy on here
I mean the way Christians (the only anti-sex - (yes anti-sex - apart from in a marriage for the sake of making babies) religion gaining major influence in Europe and maintaining it for hundreds of years. Neither Romans, Vikings or the Ancient Greek had any problems with sex. They even had gods for it) in the past criminalized sex have an influence on us, today. The Christian church is based on guilt, and the only way out is to have faith in Christ (Lutherans) or live correctly (Catholics).
Yes, but they have a choice still. I never said I would, but I do know that sex is not vital for maintaining life. As said, if I had no partner and no arms, then I would have to live without sex. And I'm not the least doubting that I would still have a fine life.
No, I said that the Christians are guilty of tabooing sex in the West. Your average Catholic is not to blame or look down upon - and I wouldn't. I would never tell them that they are wrong, or shouldn't live their life as they do. But that does not mean that history is any different, or that I personally will have their rules pressed unto me.
There's a difference between criticize ideas and dogmas, and then people. You go for the ball, not the man. All have equal rights and worth as humans, but of course any idea is not equally good.
First of all I don't see how that conflicts with the ethic standpoint, that all humans are born free and equal. Second of all I've already confessed that I was a bit too hasty in my conclusions, saying that.
Sure, you too:) You obviously know a lot about Buddhism, and it's always inspiring to debate with someone with an apparently quite different take on life ...
Are you speaking for all women in the world DD? If you do, then I have to say that you are mistaken. I am a woman who doesn't want to have sex with the hope of having children. If I have sex I have sex for pleasure.
i think as long as u have postive people to support u and u improve urself daily is ok. cuz i used to set my standard so high, that my reality n dream were far distance from each other. at that time, religion didn't help me i am a tibetan buddhist, i have pretty good knowledge of buddhism, but my parents n sister helped me i am sorry again, i think buddhism helped me indirectly cuz my dad listens to h.h. dalai lama so much that helped him realise and understand my behaviour problem n helped me improve and change.
so thank you buddhist again but don't forget to use ur brain, cuz if u put too much pressure in ur brain, n u achieve nothing make u feel messed up n guilt n more suffering, it doesnot matter who is right and who is wrong but it matter if u r using ur mind more wisely and smartly to survive and help others.
i heard of many monks who have abondoned their monastery n married women
okkk pse n tc love u all
Ohh, that ...
Right view leads to samadhi, insight, dispassion & Nibbana.
:om: