Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Afterlife?
As I know nothing really about buddhism other than what I read on that "So You want to be Buddhist?" site that somebody posted, i'm wondering, I know Brian has told me that it's not a religion but a path for life to follow but does this incorporate any thoughts for afterlife? Is there any thought process on that or is it just kind of once your life is over you're done?
0
Comments
Just as christians and other theists believe that there is some sort of heaven or hell, so do most buddhists.
The goal is to become a perfect human being, to acheive enlightenment. This obviously doesn't happen in most people's lives. Therefore, when they die, the life energy needs to have another chance at corporeal existence to try it again. You are reborn, according to your accumulated kammic energy (karma in english). If your karma is horrible (say, you were hitler in a previous life) you are "set back" quite a ways, and you are born into a suffering existence (say, as a chicken at a KFC farm or something), but you have a chance to live slightly better until you can reach the highest form of life again (human, we assume - although some monks believe it may be dog or something like that) whereins you have the conscious ability to improve your karma until the point you reach enlightenment.
Okay, put it this way:
Heaven == NOT being reborn again, acheive Nibbana (Nirvana) a state of total eternal peace and serenity
Hell == Constantly being born again and again, suffering through life in a variety of ways.
This is my limited, novice understanding of things. It gets much more detailed and deeper than this, and I'm sure someone more educated than me can explain it much more clearly and convincingly.
Basically it boils down to "we believe in reincarnation" but I hate using the word believe. It's observable. People on earth can recall past lives with clarity and convincing detail. There are many documented cases of this.
What does make sense to me is the repetition of the human experience, ie. reincarnation. Its almost like the conservation of energy; souls cannot be created or destroyed, only transfered into different forms.
At least thats my semi-scientific thoughts on the matter.
And reincarnation seems the same way, that magically you turn into a new being because of your spirt or life energy or whatever.
My bet is that you die, you die, that's it, drab as it may sound, some things just are what they are, ya know.
It's part of the lesson, man... The lesson of impermenance. NOTHING is forever, therefore there's no point in being attached to any of it. The concept of reincarantion frightens me because I am weak and I am attached to all those things. The thought of losing them all scares me.
That's the beauty, the true essence of Buddhism, to me. The fact that anybody can acheive enlightenment. You do NOT have to "give up everything" to become enlightened. The more you give up, the easier your task gets, but as tycho was saying in another thread, sometimes it can be the opposite. Being attached to the idea of giving up on everything can also hinder your progress. Some people might go a little nuts, you know, and say like "I'M GONNA GIVE IT ALL UP. I'M GONNA TORTURE MYSELF."
The Buddha himself did this. He chose the life of asceticism. He chose a life of starvation, nothingness, and self-deprivement.
After nine years of that, he realized how much it sucked. He thought "this is pointless. I am accomplishing nothing except the wasting away of my own body. How does this do anybody any good?" And that's when he discovered the middle path.
The middle path is exactly what it sounds like. Do everything in moderation. Live life in moderation. Always take the middle path in life. If you can do this, you will reach enlightenment.
has a discourse by The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw on the question of karma.
read more from the actual website but i shall copy part of it here :
Question 3: On the death of a sentient being, is there a 'soul' that wanders about at will?
ANSWER: When a sentient being leaves one existence, it is reborn either as a human being, a Deva, a Brahma, an inferior animal, or as a denizen of one of the regions of hell. The sceptics and the ignorant people hold that there are intermediate stages--- Antarabhava--- between these; and that there are beings who are neither of the human, the Deva or the Brahma worlds, nor of any one of the states of existences recognized in the Scriptures,--- but are in an intermediate stage. Some assert that these transitional beings are possessed of the five khandhas: *
Some assert that these beings are detached 'souls' or spirits with no material envelopes and some again, that they are possessed of the faculty of seeing like Devas and further, that they have the power of changing at will, at short intervals, from one to any of the existences mentioned above. Others again hold the fantastic and erroneous theory that these beings can and do, fancy themselves to be in other than the existence they are actually in; thus, to take for example one such of these suppositious beings. He is a poor person —and yet he fancies himself to be rich. He may be in hell—and yet he fancies himself to be in the land of Devas, and so on. This belief in intermediate stages between existences is false, and is condemned in the Buddhist teachings. A human being in this life who by his Kamma is destined to be a human being in the next will be re-born as such; one who by his Kamma is destined to be a deva in the next will appear in the land of devas , and one whose future life is to be in hell, will be found in one of the regions of hell in the next existence.
The idea of an entity or "soul" or spirit "going", "coming" , " changing", "transmigrating" from one existence to another is that entertained by the ignorant and the materialistic, and is certainly not justified by the Dhamma: there is no such things "going", "coming", "changing", etc.,, as between existences. The conception which is in accordance with the Dhamma may perhaps be illustrated by the picture thrown out by the cinematograph, or the sound emitted by the gramophone, and their relation to the film or the sound—box and disc respectively.
For example, a human being dies and is reborn in the land of devas. Though these two existences are different, yet the link or continuity between the two at death is unbroken in point of time. And so in the case of a man whose future existence is to be the nethermost hell. The distance between hell and the abode of man appears to be great. Yet, in point of time, the continuity of " passage " from the one existence to the other is unbroken, and no intervening matter or space can interrupt the trend of this man's kamma from the world of human beings to the regions of hell. The "passage" from one existence to another is instantaneous, and the transition is infinitely quicker than the blink of an eyelid or a lightning-flash.
Kamma determines the realm of rebirth and the state of existence in such realm of all transient beings (in the cycle of existences which have to be traversed till the attainment at last of Nibbana)
Kammas in their results are manifold, and may be effected in many ways. Religious offerings (Dana) may obtain for a man the privilege of rebirth as a human being, or as a deva, in one of the six deva-worlds according to the degree of the merit of the deeds performed. And so with the observance of religious duties (sila). The five jhanas or states of enlightenment, are found in the Brahma worlds or Brahma-lokas up to the summit, the twentieth Brahma world. And so with bad deeds, the perpetrators of which are to be found, grade by grade, down to the lowest depths of the nethermost hell. Thus, our kammas, past, present and future, were, are, and will ever be the sum-total of our deeds, good, indifferent or bad, according as our actions are good, indifferent or bad As will be seen from the foregoing, our kammas determine the changes in our existences.
"Evil spirits" are therefore not beings in an intermediate or transitional stage of existence, but are really very inferior beings, and they belong to one of the following five realms of existence, which are namely World of men; World of devas, the regions of Hell; --Animals below men ; and Petas.
They are very near the world of human beings. As their condition is unhappy, they are popularly considered as evil spirits. It is not true that all who die in this world are reborn as evil spirits, though human beings who die sudden or violent deaths are apt to be reborn in these lowest worlds of devas.
* Khandha: The 5 'groups' are called the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to be the ignorant man as his Ego, or personality, to wit: (1) the Corporeality-group rupakkhandha), (2) the Feeling—group (Vedana-kkhandha). (3) the Perception-group (sanna-kkhandha), (4) the Mental—Formation group (Sankhara-kkhandha), (5) the Consciousness-group (vinnana— kkhandha). "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the Corporeality-group. Whatever there exists of feeling ... of perception . . of mental formations ... of consciousness . . all that belongs to the Consciousness-group '' (S VIII. 8f) ("Buddhist Dictionary", Nyanatiloka.)
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
There's all kinds of, 'propaganda' as I would call it, all over the internet. I certainly am not meaning to put down anyone's religion, as this is my own personal thought after reading such material, that some of the 'evidence' given about where we go, what happens and how a place could exist such as this just seems pretty ludicrous to me, this 'diagram' for example.
Saying that because the earth's core is molten it proves that references to hell thousands of years ago are being 'proven by science'
I am worrying much less and less about some of these ideals that were instilled in my head at a young age because now that I have an analytical mind capable of critical thinking it just seems crazy to me.
Is there anybody on here that doesn't consider themself a real devout Christian but still have ideas of "Heaven and Hell" in their mind? Only curious because it seemed to me that I was this way for a long time and am finally being able to see these things for what they are worth.
Finally I was able to quash the final lingering doubts and fears that a lifetime of catholic upbringing had poisoned me with, and felt so much lighter and happier. The best part was that I felt free - free of fear and guilt.
Although Buddha’s teachings are too complicated than I can explain, in short, he wanted to prevent believers to commit sin by bringing a story or a vision of afterlife (hell or heaven) to them. By making a vivid comparison about hell and heaven, Buddha accomplished his goal by having his followers to listen, remember, believe, and think along about his teachings. Ultimately, those followers led a peaceful life. And, thus, they passed on Buddha’s teachings to many others until today.
NOTE: It is not my poor choice of word when I use “lure”. Imagine yourself two thousand ago when man believed in animal and human sacrifices. If you simply told them not to do so, for it was a sin, would they even listen to you? I did not think so. By luring into a vivid images of heaven (in the sky with many lovely and beautiful things) and hell (down below earth with many scary and ugly things), Buddha took all attention from them, and he began to insert his teachings into his stories about those heaven and hell images.
I know this elderly Jewish lady living in Chelsea, who saw her family decimated by the Nazis in the war. Only she and her brother survived.
her brother was subsequently murdered by a mugger. Her husband died in a car accident, her eldest daughter was raped at knifepoint, and her son is a hardened drug-addict. If anyone is actually living through Hell at the moment, it is she.
Yet I know her to be one of the most loving, forgiving, stoïc, resolute and patient people I know. She does voluntary work for the homeless, takes in countless stray cats & dogs to neuter, feed and to re-house, she is a wonderful friend and neighbour to those close to her, and never says no to anyone. She would put many so-called pious religious people to shame. But she doesn't practise Judaism. She is an angel and Heaven-sent to those around her. There is your Hell. That is how to manifest Heaven, here & now.
Personally, I do hope that there is some sort of immortal soul that would carry on. If there is, I'll be pleasantly surprised - assuming that the afterlife isn't too bad. I don't see any reason to believe this, though, except for the fact that I find it a pleasant notion. In the meantime, I do fear death but assuming that death is how I expect, my over-attachment to life is the only problem since it sometimes interferes with my current mood (thinking about death a lot is really depressing). In a way, death might be nirvana for everyone - no thoughts, no attachment. However, it is the acceptance of our impending deaths in this life that really matters. As unorthodox as my beliefs might be (and they are really more like theories, thoughts), I find Buddhism to still be very relevant and helpful for me. In the end, we'll all know what happens after death - or not.
... I remember them like this....
Right VISA BEAM...
V = View
I = Intent
S = Speech
A = Aim (or Intention....)
B = Business (or work, career....)
E = (our friend) Effort
A = Awareness
M = Meditation (reflection, cogitation)
However, one old lady remembers them as "Right Everything" and if that don't cover it, nothing will!
The notion of re-birth was something taken as normal, even by christians, right up to the 14th century or so.... then the big 'I am' folks came along, and in order to exert pressure and fear on the masses, taught that re-birth was only possible in heaven and by God's will. Why bother having to behave, if you can always try again? is what they feared, so they literally scared folks out of their withs by threatening Fire & Brimstone... right up to the last generation, God was seen as a God of mercy, but only if you toed the line.....
the reasons why im not so sure about reincarnation are:
A. no one can prove or disprove it, leaving us to rely on faith
B. I dont understand why people cant accept that maybe when we die, THATS IT. ZILCH, END, PRESTO, we dont know it just like we dont know what was going on before we were born. when we die we are not alive and before we are born we are not alive. IF, indeed reincarnation is true, we wouldnt know it anyways. (see D.) essentially what we call ourselfs, our souls, our thoughts feelings emotions ideas, our conciousness, would be erased... we would have no memory of it therefore there would BE no us.
C. IF reincarnation is true, then where does new life come from? i mean, hypothetically if microscopic plankton were the first life forms, and all they ate was sugar water and sun rays, where did their "existance/soul" come from? when they reproduce where does the new lifes existance/soul come from? other life? there was no other life....
D. the concept doesnt make sense, I cant come back as anything because what i call I, what i am, this body... will die, and if i reincarnate and dont remember anything about my past life, my mind will die too. whatever i called ME, whatever i thought was me will cease to exist as far as i know it. of course my energy wont DISAPPEAR, ur right we learned this in grade seven, but it will CHANGE, not from the thoughts and ideas i have now but into other kinds of energy that will disipate and ultimately end
maybe buddha was using reincarnation as a metaphor, to say that there IS nothing in the afterlife because "I" am nothing in the afterlife, just like "I" was nothing in the beforelife. a SOUL is a concept, not able to be proven or disproven, leaving us to once again rely on faith
I'm open to being convinced otherwise (as always).
I'm new here refered by a wandering boddhisattva. I have an interesting way I like to explain reincarnation/birth /death.
Find a blank sheet of paper. penetrate deeply what it took to get the paper in your hands. water from the clouds to the soil in which a seed lays. nutrients from the soil. tree grows. man cuts down tree.....you get the idea. this is only a minute fraction of what it took. now do you think this is the final incarnation of the paper/rain/soil......? If you do then find a match, light the paper on fire watch very closley as it burns. what do you see?. is the paper gone? no. it is now ash, soot and smoke. it did not dissapear. it was not destroyed. it has simply incarnated, if you will, into its next state. now if you like to imagine the ash may go back to the earth and fertilize the soil, the smoke goes to the sky...do you see where we are going? the paper does not have to become paper again to be reincarnated, it can become an intricate part of thousands of things. all of this can be traced in a great circle of the 10,000 things (lao-tzu) the fallacy is that the paper would remember its past as paper. In true Zen fasshion I'll tell you that you defiled it by seeing it as paper in the first place. do not defile it again by placing expectations on its next state. all this as with you.
A deep and profound ^gassho^ to you all
I hope you find this forum more 'user' friendly than that at that 'other' place!
Thank you for that extemely insightful and illuminating thought.... "It was so good, that we're all enlightened now, and we can go home - !!"
Seriously, it is a rather nice way of seeing things, and very helpful..... what was the tree before it found the ash.....?
I also read the comment from your nephew. frankly, it leaves us all behind - !
Are you really a monk-to-be? When is this happening, then?
Thanks for coming in, it's nice to see you here. :bigclap:
before I can truly take my vows I have a daughter to raise. untill then its laity for me! Thanks for the welcome. hello lunatic. thank you for the guidance.
^gassho^
You can say that again, Zen....!!
tho I'm sure this has been addressed many times here. lets try again. First you have a visual image in your head of what heaven and hell look like. where did you get these images? ahh from the writtings and teachings of men who have never seen the places they are describing. this is dangerous for several reasons. not to deny any religion but you said you were a christian. what does jesus look like? (same answer as above) now this is attachment to non-reality. the danger is that what if jesus/god/alah...etc were to walk up to you on the street. being attached to your inncorect self manifested vision you would walk right by him/her. this applys to all things. once you say "I know": what this is ,looks like, tastes like etc you have closed the door on your window to reality. I am abbreviating this as much as I can. now secondly to follow a rule/commandment just because you fear some retribution is not any where near morality. the jist of this is that if they changed the rule would you still live by it? obidience is not morality. if you are in fear of a rule then you dont understand it OR ,and this is big, it shouldnt be a law in the first place. as a Buddhist my path is to live the precepts, BE the precepts, then there will never arise in my mind doubt or fear that I am doing the right thing. true compassion (this is all morality is anyway) is the natural human state. if we uncover this we can be free from the dogma created by men, and their manipulation of religions.
^gassho^
I am Adiana and I want to welcome you both here. I look forward to getting to know you both.
Adiana
As far as morality is concerned I couldn't agree with you more, it should come from within and not be forced because you fear the consequence. However this crucial point seems to be overlooked in Christianity in particular, where the teachings stress that you are rewarded for you're morality. In turn one of the main motives for acting in a moral way (although you may be a moral person anyway) is to be rewarded in heaven. It doesn't emphasize the fact that morality and compassion should be rewarding in themselves, and not require further recognition.
^gassho^