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Profound Inner Peace and Laziness
From http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showpost.php?p=127995&postcount=18The absorption state, when cultivated over time, assists the mind in being able to retain its sense of quietude and stillness, even beyond its practice in meditative states. Such a state of peacefulness outside of meditation is known as passaddhi, which just means "calm" or "a profound inner peace." This translates into an increase in the practitioner's ability to remain in a "mindful" state of mind for increasingly longer and longer periods of time away from meditative states.
I seem to be able to get passaddhi, the peaceful state right after having gone through jhana. Been able to do that at will since young, able to "slow down and observe just about anything". I learned languages, music, and any form of mimicry that way. But I'm lazy.
You see, this passaddhi that I experience makes me so "at ease" that I can just die, and be nonchalant about it. Makes me passive and detached.
The moment I start working hard for something, I snap out of this passaddhi. I become intense, even corrupted. People around me will say things like "oh you should keep at that, you do it so well". I then start having goals (piano, music, languages, sports, anything), hobbies. I then start to lose my passaddhi, as I start craving for excellence, to toy with my potentials. Comes to a point where I actually think "I wish you can have my skills and potential, so I don't have to bother with them!"
I seem to latch on to other people's cravings, completely empathizing with them, and 100% making their cravings my own.
Is it wrong to want nothing from life, and just pass away as a matter of course? Am passive and observant, even to the point of observing my own ailments and pains. How do I renounce samsara (and the household life, and other "normal" worldly possessions)? I have family to feed, and I don't have a palace of wealth to feed them (unlike Buddha). Perhaps I put on hold my "renunciation tendencies", and live out my current karma in feeding my family? Perhaps next life, I will have a more conducive setting?
How do I enter jhana? I do feel a lack (or diminish) of "physical sensation". But I have to constantly maintain posture, and maintain mindfulness. I don't think that means I am totally detached from "physical sensation" (a symptom of jhana?).
I have so many illusions, I wish a teacher can dig into my mind and help me identify the "fakes". The passaddhi suppresses my 5 hindrances for days on end, and I mistakenly think I "directly experienced detachment". The hindrances can come back anytime, even with the slightest aromas and imageries.
I don't even think I truly have passaddhi. Maybe I really am just a "very observant and lazy person".
Doubt. A terrible hindrance.
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But I do like to experiment and study. I take a new hobby, a mad interest in something, and I let it go at its peak. I go into meditation and "let go". I feel a detachment from the hobby, from the person selling the hobby, from my peers into the hobby (I give up competing and having fun with them). I let my peers surpass me, and I wished them well. (Mind you, I'm mad about this hobby).
In that way, I've cut off many addictions in my life.
So, I think I had attained passaddhi (really?). But give it a few days, without meditation, I see a new band playing a new song, and I'm all intense again. Jhana is not enlightenment.
The most i can say is that I "comprehend" all that is taught by the Buddha. But mere comprehension does nothing for me. It's like watching a musician on TV, and going "oh i know how he does that", but me personally not training to do that. At least with music, my ears can tell me whether "I'm there yet" or not. With meditation, I get no peer reviews!
A "I can stay like this" feeling. Calm-abiding?
A "There is nothing to do" feeling.
A "Just Be" feeling.
A feeling of detachment also because I realize that no one in this world is truly in danger, only in suffering. Ya, a big stress to me is seeing others suffer vicious cycles.
A "I'm free from having to maintain a body" feeling. (I eat a lot). Free from foul and decaying attachments.
Ditto lol, it has been 18 months of non progress on and off for me... I also can relate to what you said about being peaceful during meditation but as soon as you attempt to do something as in a hobby or anything of this nature, you quickly resort back to the striving and monkey mind.
Try reading Mind at Ease by Traleg Kyabgon, it is great book on insight meditation that focuses directly on mind. I think both of you may benefit from this book.
Lastly, or rather firstly, see your teacher.
Cheers, WK
I have tried insightful meditation, something I have tried after some focusing on the act of breathing. I found that my mind was so still and so relaxed I could not think a single thought... Therefor could not gain much insight what so ever.
But yea, I feel the same now as I did one time at school in a math lesson. I was okay at math, I was lumped in the top group but I was the lower part of the top group. There was one lesson I distinctly remember where there was a process being explained and we all had to go through it as a class. I fell behind and did not understand properly and became very frustrated and emotional. It is similar to how I feel about meditation right now, I feel I have failed at it and seem to make no progress at it what so ever
Coincidence?
Now, my question is this. How do I know if I've successfully gone into jhana? I'm a pretty observant person, can slow down and precisely experiment with different techniques. If someone can just bring me to jhana, and show me "now that's jhana", I'll know the "end-goal" (so to speak). As I try different aspects of approach, I'll know "this works, that doesn't".
I now have a new question, related. How do I know when I have severed the 5 hindrances? Enlightenment? Is it even possible, given that the sense-bases (eye, ear, etc) are still there?
Is there a jhana master I can seek help from?
(My only attachments are to responsibilities. If I'm all alone, I'll be able to let go. I'm rather industrious, so I'm not stranded in a desolate world after realizing everything is unsatisfactory, impermanent. "Nihilism" isn't even a problem for me, since I'll just be converting my "energy (matter)" to fertilizers at least. Rebirth and teething pains is more worrying than nihilism.)
EDIT: From
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level2_lamrim/advanced_scope/concentration/achieving_shamatha.html
Now, that definition is useful. That's the end-goal I seek, to know "I've been there, or not". I can concentrate on anything for as long a I wish, which is how I can analyze and learn just about anything I put my mind to (complex little skills, not voluminous medical studies). So, I now know I have Shamatha, at will. What about jhana? I need to know I'm "there on 1st base", then I can confidently reach for 2nd jhana and beyond.
You need wisdom to move on, for that you need insight. What methods are you using to achive insight. You can watch your breath or body for ever and go nowhere. There are stories that I've read from Tibetan teachers who talk about a cave in the mountains where Chinese found a group of meditators who had been there so long there bodies were essentially mummified. The teachers were saying that these meditators had found a false state where all they could do was stagnate. They probably thought they were really good meditators
You need to take the next step, that doesn't involve more shamata meditation. Also fixation on results will lead you absolutely nowhere, it won't work.
Viewport what's your motivation? You shouldn't really answer that here but you should seriously consider it within.
Good luck
My motivation. Hmm. Ever since i was born, I've had this longing for a place. Like a forest, but, pristine, gentle. No violence. I was among monks. This world is so peaceful. No one had violent thoughts or bad thoughts.
We were kids. Even the old teachers (monks too) behaved like kids. We had fun. All kinds of games, unwavering good sportsmanship. We were all... gymnasts, it seems. I brought the natural agility and flexibility (I stretch easy) to this life, it appears. Born with it now. We were having so much fun doing cartwheels, flips, flying around. And then, I had to leave. I forgot why.
This life, I was born with dexterity (i use both hands), speed, fun-loving nature. I always open and close doors and cabinets "3 at a time" (2 hands, 1 leg). I find that fun. I haven't met anyone to play with on that "level".
My motivation? I think, maybe I miss home. Or... I don't really like it here in this current world. It all seems so different, the people, the thoughts and inclinations. But I'm here now, for better or worse.
You probably notice, I never go for noir fiction/movies. I'm a happy person, and mean people make me sad. Just hearing a friend say "I'm so happy to see him suffer, hah! that'll show him". That made me feel so bad.
Gotta go. Talk later.
EDIT: Oh, 1 more thing. In that world, there were no females. No families. No boy-girl relationships. Unheard of there. I have no idea how we all came into being.
I would start reading some about how the Buddha recommended one to cultivate Energy (viriya) because a lack of that seems to be your problem yes?
Yes, you're right about me encountering idleness sometimes during meditation. That means, I need to go about my day normally (food and exercise, cleaning, housekeeping, etc), in order to get the requisite energy and conducive setting for jhana. I understand that this "jhana" can feel "sparse in awareness/attention" when I'm weak in energy; I drift in and out of consciousess, that is. I've tried fasting and meditating, and that gave me a "high" feeling which I thought was jhana. But that feeling was useless, I was merely resting and doing nothing.
Which comes back to my original question. During proper jhana, I'm able to apply my mind (think of anything I want), and able to sustain my attention (even to rotate and solve a rubic cube in my mind). Problem is... that jhana feeling seems perfectly... normal to me. Nothing special.
Point is... I don't know what true jhana feels like. I'm sure there's a spot-on description of it somewhere. I need to know what jhana feels like, so I'll know when I'm there. Otherwise, I might tread away from jhana itself, not knowing I'm already there.
EDIT:
I'm not feeling idle in meditation; I can create solutions and analyze problems in there. I'm feeling detached and disinterested in this world, that's what I meant by "mummified during jhana". Call me weird, but I have this feeling that it's not quite normal to be around people with ill will. I was born into a normal family with normal squabbles, so I really don't know where this "weird perspective" comes from. I deal with angry people normally (appease, assist). See my previous post on some weird world.
Also ,as I understand it, if one can truly "let go", then being around people with ill-will is no problem. Not making progress in meditation is no problem. What progress is there to be made? Being around people who are craving is no problem. Living in an empty world is no problem. Having worldy goals is no problem. Perusing hobbies is no problem. As I understand it, all these problems, if fact ALL problems, come from a craving for something. When there is no craving, there are no problems, regardless of anything. What is it that you are craving for? Find that and let go of it and then I think your problems will disappear. Easier said than done!
Also, what I posted above I think equally applies to daily life as well as meditation practice.
Yes, I would wanna let go of it if it's an impediment. Currently, it calms me to the point where I can even avoid flinching from any pain. (It's weird, kinda like shutting down the nervous system, dangerous, because we're supposed to flinch away from pain). I almost feel like I'm a robot, with artificial memories and thoughts.
Is jhana so dangerous that I must let it go? Despite the incisive tools i get with it? I need to know if I'm actually having jhana in the first place. I wish someone can just dig into my mind and tell me.
Actually, I find it hard to get out of jhana. As I mentioned, I kinda become "mummified in jhana". The mind is separate from body, and there isn't even a need to seek physical refreshments. Now this happens only if I'm lyind down. If I'm meditating sitting up, I'm still attached to the body via "maintenance of muscle tone" (so the body doesn't collapse into an unconscious heap).
The heart sutra? Isn't that in Mahayana? I don't know, but I'm not too inclined to believe in a wide myriad of mystical bodhisattvas. In my meditations, there are no sense feelings, no music, no zen-like setting. Just pure thought, no imageries.
Not that it's a problem for me. Hmm, maybe I wrote too much. Gist is... I miss a place where there was no ill will. How about this... if you lived among gentle spirits, would you miss that if you were suddenly thrust into a prison with crude people having shallow or bad thoughts?
I understand your "letting go" advice. However, I'm nowhere near that ideal state of nirvana. I can barely identify my own jhanas! The only thing I have could be passadhi (inner peace?). Mastery over the mind, cravings and aversions... that doesn't mean I have insight enough for nirvana.
My concern isn't about making progress in meditation. It's about laziness! (The title of the thread?).
Long story short. I have extreme agility, fast, quick. Dunno how to explain that, but I suspect it comes from calm-abiding (verify?? not sure). Yet, whenever I get into jhana, I get a passadhi that makes me "lazy to live in this world". My problem is in "letting go"! Ironically.
You know what. Maybe this will cut through all my messy words. I wake up every day expecting to see a decrepit old face in the mirror. To me, my body is already broken. A foregone conclusion? I enjoy it, yes, the vitality and dexterities. But I see it as "already gone".
I'm being told by normal folks in life "you, son, are wasting your talents, go do something big!". But I wanna leave everything behind (everything that I know will fade off). It's so.. hard... to explain!
Maybe if you'll see me play the piano for you, sing, play a sport, flip and fly around. And then, after I catch my breath, I face you squarely, and say "I wish you can have all of that, because people always slap me for not appreciating any of that".
I know this isn't a shrink's couch. I just thought I might give some background, because somebody mentioned "know thy motivations".
Look, my question is simple. I think I enter jhana at will easily (2 seconds or 2 minutes, depending on what my previous activity was). I need a teacher to tell me if I'm doing it right, and whether I'm in any danger. Yes, I enjoy the jhana. Problem is I'm getting lazy (as in "I don't feel like I want anything in this life").
Ah, that's it, I think. After having jhana, I don't think I can apply myself "normally" to normal daily life.
2 questions:
1. Am I having jhana, or am I in danger?
2. Is it normal to feel lazy once I have jhana?
Have you tried using applied and sustained thought to something that is applicable to the path, instead of rubic cubes?
A wise master teacher can do that.
Yes it is Mahayana. It is hard to tell who is what tradition on these forums.
If one could truly let go, then I would think the answer would be no, it would make no difference whatsoever.
"Now what do you think, Sona. Before, when you were a house-dweller, were you skilled at playing the vina?"
"Yes, lord."
"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too taut, was your vina in tune & playable?"
"No, lord."
"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too loose, was your vina in tune & playable?"
"No, lord."
"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned[1] to be right on pitch, was your vina in tune & playable?"
"Yes, lord."
"In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune[2]the pitch of the [five] faculties[to that], and there pick up your theme."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.than.html
Your strings are too loose? Perhaps tighten them up with more emphasis on development of right effort (Vīrya) and less on concentration?
So go get a teacher.
If you become too lazy to eat or take care of your body, then yes I would say you are in danger.
A few nagging details remain.
Nagging 1. I have sense bases, and they sense things. I do all I can to regularly diminish their flames. (Easier to do when I see the unsatisfactoriness)
Nagging 2. I can at most deposit myself temporarily in jhana and passadhi, my only temporary refuge from the naggings (of body, hindrances, etc).
I can and do help others along the way. But I realized long ago that I best leave things to "the flow", and I merely point out feasible paths to help. I often find that things get better without me trying, and get worse with me interfering (an extreme illustration to show that "natural order of things is higher than me").
Sorry. I had a prejudice against a tradition that paint fantastical imageries that incense the senses. But you're right. I can't knock something I don't know, and this heart sutra could be true. I seem to be focusing too much on the unsatisfactoriness of my "raft", rather than on crossing the river.
Perfect.
You mean I should "be normal" in daily life as much as possible? Joke with my friends, indulge with them a bit, get on with normal life? And yet, balance that with my jhanas and path to nirvana?
My strings are too loose for normal life. But I suddenly realized, perhaps from your words, that I should find my practice within my normal life. Practice calm and perseverance using my work as a "raft", not an end-goal.
It seems somewhat naturally contrasted, the household life and the path. But I'm still gonna continue trying. I'll snap out of my jhana habits (they feel so good!).
Which is why I'm asking for somebody here to tell me about my jhanas. I can't find anybody elsewhere.
Sigh. I do take care of it. But I eat so much. It's such a hassle. I really tried eating less, I see myself weakening below functionality. I really have such a high energy requirement.
I'm not lazy in jhana. I organize things, solve problems, in my jhanas, until I decide to rest and let it all go.
Maybe I should give up my jhana, because they highlight a contrast with body life. A contrast too stark to ignore or reconcile. I can't find any jhana teachers anyway.
how about reading 7 factors of enlightenment (saptha-bojjanga) again(?)
and
think over it
when there is laziness, Buddha advices to work on Dhamma-viccya, viriya and prithi
when there is unsettled mind to work on passadhi, samadhi and upekka
Someone once asked my teacher how long should we practice meditation each day. He said "24 hours a day, 7 days a week"
I do that 24/7, minding my own vedana and such (vipassana). On a normal week, I can miss as much as 80-90% of my thoughts and volitions. With passadhi, maybe just 5-10%. (by "volitions", i mean the selfish thoughts! for eg, when I say "I feel tired this week", I catch myself feeling "I don't feel like doing this")
One curious phenomenon I'd like to share. When I am applying my mind, and sustaining it on a subject (a skill, hobby, work, or even meditation on dhamma), there seems to be less room for "my own thoughts". Or rather, less room for wild and random monkey thoughts.
I did try "idling the mind" before. A lot of rubbish came up. Even in jhana, I have to "apply and sustain" my mind at all times. It's hard to explain how such "effort" can be relaxing. Maybe it's like you said, a well-balanced string can "hum" forever; a taut or loose string will ring or wobble out soon.
i glanced through your posts and replies to them... it seems to me that you are not on the right track. The purpose of meditation is to realise or see the true condition of reality. Which frees us from all the delusions and sufferings attendant to the delusions... for instance your question of should you be lazy in the jhana or not, or are you in first jhana or not etc... all these are more questions, every jhana you reach there are further questions, further sense of maintenance and potential of losing the state.... We need to reach a point where there is no more question and there is nothing to gain or lose, and that is the real goal of meditation, which brings the mind back to its original awakened home... To reach this ultimate realisation where we wake up from all our ordinary delusions. Questioning, doubt, maybe-yes, maybe-no, am i sure, all these nagging haunting thoughts are creating subtle suffering in you. If one reaches true absolute clarity and wisdom, even such subtle sufferings will all end.
Practice the true path of Buddhism... which is to have realisation. Not just experiences that fade with time... for eg. can you have jhana all the time when you are working etc. But if you have realisation, it is functioning all the time, you can't lose it even if you want to... it changes you completely.
My suggestion is that you take some time to study the real viewpoints of Buddhism, in terms of non-self, emptiness and pursue the meditations that bring you to true insight.
Just my opinion, hope helps!
I second many of what people have to say here. I think that there is already enough information here for you to find something. Whatever you try make sure you follow it through and don't jump onto something else on a whim when it hits. We are living in an age of short term solutions, short term selling tactics and short term tweets. Everything flashes into existence and fades away. Ideas like perseverance and discipline are lacking in our society. Our news is quick flashy and superficial, our companies work on short term goals. What we as Buddhists need to do is go against this trend. There is a trend in modern Buddhists to try something for a while until laziness kicks in and we try something else. Normally we justify our reason for not persevering, but it is just an excuse. Really, to some degree, we are creations of our society.
So basically, when the answer is there, it is our responsibility to make a commitment and follow it through.
As to what you describe above in your dreams, one interpretation is you are having memories from a previous higher birth. You know what that means you are on the way down! You may not believe in the traditional rebirth model of Buddhism, though with dreams like that I would at least give it some possibility if I were you. So, possibly being on the down hill slope, I would seriously try to work on a beneficial motivation. At the moment the motivation appears to be to regain what's lost, that's not a very good motivation. If possible, boddhicitta would be the best goal rather than personal liberation but personal liberation is very good as well. With both of these you can reverse the downward trend and be of benefit to yourself and others. But really, the reason why your meditation is not successful is because you lack sufficient motivation. I suggest you work on that and the rest will follow.
Good Luck, WK
I know all that theory the Buddha put to us. There is no constant unchanging self, and no self (merely fabricated). There is emptiness (minus fabrications, but not nihilism). Since there is no nihilism, something else is there (awareness?).
As I mentioned in my posts, mere comprehension of Buddha's teachings don't work for me. I need to personally experience his teachings, test them, dispel doubts about them.
Moreover, there are parts of Buddha's teachings I can't reconcile. How do we have metta without thoughts? We don't have thoughts without mind, no mind without consciousness, no consciousness without dukka. So, let me see. Without ignorance, there will be no consciousness. This is an age-old contradiction, to reach a place of "no consciousness" while riding the raft of "consciouness (meditation)". Only direct experience (insight PLUS comprehension) can let me see "the other shore" that Buddha mentioned.
Ok, I'll persevere. I'm already born into this world, so I should calmly observe the dukkahere, not jump in with the dukka. I'm already with a body, so I should calmly care for it without attaching to it.
The Buddha did mention that every good karma will be used up. Liberation is the only end to suffering. Perhaps next life, I can be born without a family to take care of, and can give up the household life. In this life, I seem trapped. I've been hit by cars (my body), had accidents, fallen from high. The body just can't manage to die off (not that I'm suicidal). I'll persevere, and live through this life (or sentence).
Done that. Helping others while I myself am ignorant, I do more harm than good. Anyway, most people in dukka are not conditioned to receive true help. Perhaps the only "boddhicitta" proper is to just offer them the dhamma, and let them help themselves.
I do find it natural to teach others what I can (all the odd skills I seem to be born with). Many honestly-seeking people have benefited (learned what I know), even though they still don't "see" instinctively as I do. There are so many ways to "learn" a skill, so interesting.
Maybe I shouldn't be "trending" anymore? Everything oscillates, back and forth.
I am of no benefit to others. I inspire envy, greed, lust, anger in people (those who are already thus inclined, though), even if I do nothing. But I do inspire and help those who are "better inclined". It really seems people just benefit themselves around me; I am of no benefit to anymore.
But you're all right. I have craving for a "better past", and aversion for the current life. No sanctuary (my past?) can last forever. No suffering (my present?) can last forever. But when I remove craving and aversion, I am left quite empty. Maybe I should abide in this "empty" feeling? But that's when the "laziness" kicks in. I don't feel a need for ambition, for aversion (correcting others). That's what I mean by "laziness in this society". I am very organized, diligent, meticulous person (I even organize my dad's stuff, and he likes the organization).
Cheers, WK
From my understanding of what "Jhana" is, there is no organizing nor problem solving whilst absorbed.
Ajahn Brahm is always talking about Jhanas.
I believe that you might have wrong perceptions about what Jhana actually is. But then again, I don't know because I have never experienced Jhana.
My jhana (if you can call it that) are of 2 types.
First type is constant awareness (applied and sustained thought). I get to observe anything in there, solve any problem.
Second type is absolute emptiness (only possible when lying down). I lose all muscle tone (that is, muscles don't sustain enough effort to even hold up the neck). It's deeper than sleep. No dreams, no thoughts, no awareness.
I'm not sure which is a jhana. As you can see, the 2 types conflict. (Hence my question on laziness, pertaining to the second type).
No craving, nor aversion. Ok.
Neither experience sounds like Jhana to me.
Cheers, WK
I haven't read any other stuff from Robert Miller, but his book is very good. The book is based more on the meaning of emptiness rather than any sutras as such. I think Roberts Buddhist background is Zen, but to be honest, I can't really remember. I read the book because my teacher publishing house published the book. This book is good but Mind as Ease by Traleg Kyabgon is better.
Sorry, my tradition doesn't focus on the jhana's at all, the focus is on emptiness and boddhicitta. The jhana's happen as they will, we don't have any correlation between them and progress. You know that seems quite interesting in this context, but another story for another day. As to your notion of emptiness, that's not correct. Emptiness is already there, we just don't know it, it is not anything artificial or newly created. Basically, if you loose muscle tone then something else artificial is happening, emptiness should not result in loss of bodily control. Try keeping the absorption lighter, find a coherent meditation practise and don't make it up as you go along.
Cheers, WK
Viewport, from reading your posts, I get the impression that you are trying too hard and you have certain expectations about how things should be.
Maybe try relaxing and living your life and not trying to force things would be helpful.
look for a teacher and try to follow him properly... by 'properly', i mean listen and follow his instructions carefully, not just interpret everything thru your ego... it is important to drop that 'i know' attitude... sometimes, we react to everything said and suggested by our teacher with 'i know' attitude whether verbalised or not... it is quite deep sub-consciously, and deep down, we think we know better... that is a form of pride and very detrimental to the path...
you want to experience the buddha's teachings? your wanting to is itself a barrier... only a skilled teacher with realisations can truly guide you, provided you work with him with an open mind, devotion and drop that pride or 'i-know' attitude...
many things we don't even 'know' conceptually... we just 'memorised' it... even conceptual 'knowing' is not that easy... not to say experiential knowing... there are many layers of insights, don't imagine we know... when we say we know, that is already a sign that we don't. people with insight always learn for life and never limit themselves to a 'i know'
hope what i'm saying helps...
Cheers, WK