Meditating on the Breath, versus Contemplation, Placement Meditation...

Tosh

Hi guys,

I'm a little confused and would like some advice.

I've heard that meditating on the breath has good benefit, however, it's just 'meditating on stupid' (that's the phrase I heard). And it was contemplation, placement meditation that was being pushed (Lamrim), because that actually changes you into an Enlightened being.

But I've been listening to Adyashanti True Meditation CD set (he's Zen), and he basically meditates on 'nothing', just allowing the moment to be as it is (well that's the 1st of the 3 guided meditations he gives).

So, I was wondering, what's your views? Should meditation be more about contemplation - placement meditation for best effect?

Do you mix 'n' match meditation types? What?

Sorry for the vague questions, but I'm hoping you'll get my drift here! :crazy:

newtech

Well if the buddha use it, cant be so bad..if he use it, how can no be contemplation in awareness of breath?

The instructions say: When he remains understanding the breath, he also remains contemplating the body, or contemplating the feelings, or contemplating the mind, or contemplating the mental qualitie.

When he remains contemplating the body: "he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself."

So u remain contemplating the body, also u remain contemplating dependent origination, 4 noble truths, ...so on...

SeaOfTranquility

It wants to analyze everything all the time.

This habitual action causes us to confuse what is real with the illusion of what we think.

Through our practice of meditation, we learn to place our concentration on something (breath, mantra.) As thoughts come up and we become aware, we just let them go, without analysis or judgement, and return to the object of our concentration.

I am not trying to poo poo insight meditation here. IMO it should only be done once the practice I have described here is completely understood and firmly established.

Whoknows

Every part of experience, even the boring ones, have the potential to lead to insight. The trick is to pick something and go with it, getting past the point where the mind says "this is a waist of time" and going beyond.

Cheers, WK

username_5

The purpose of breath awareness meditation is to develop mindfulness or attention to the moment. It occurs automatically and the benefits carry over to time off the mat just as time at the gym is of benefit to the body even while not at the gym.

Insight meditation if often discouraged by many teachers until after concentration/mindfulness has developed a bit. Without the ability to quiet the thinking brain down and rest in mindfulness, insight meditation can become an exercise in thinking which is of only small use.

Tosh

Thanks guys. Your posts have been very useful to me.

naturelover

Somewhere along the way I learned to meditate by focusing on the inside of my closed eyelids. As thoughts come up, I simply let them go and return my focus trying to keep focusing and make my mind a blank. I works pretty well for me. Is it necessary that I give this up in favor of focusing on my breathing?

username_5

nature lover wrote: »

Somewhere along the way I learned to meditate by focusing on the inside of my closed eyelids. As thoughts come up, I simply let them go and return my focus trying to keep focusing and make my mind a blank. I works pretty well for me. Is it necessary that I give this up in favor of focusing on my breathing?

Mindfulness meditation only requires a single point of focus/awareness for the mind to rest on. Using the breath is very common, but if you are used to the inside of your eyelids I can't see any problem with that.

username_5

One thing I wanted to mention is energy. Not the new age, froo froo kind of energy, but the real world kind.

Mindfulness meditation doesn't just strengthen mindfulness, it provides it with energy. Think of it this way. Every time one sits with their awareness on the breath and this thought or that feeling pull the attention away the practitioner puts attention back on the breath. This is an energy battle. It's a battle of the energy of intentions (placing awareness on the breath versus established patterns controlling awareness).

Initially the energy powering established patterns wins every time. With a little discipline (this is why all meditation masters insist on a daily practice) mindfulness starts to get more energy. Each time we successfully put attention on the breath we suck the energy out of the pattern that pulled our attention away and mindfulness absorbs it. Mindfulness becomes stronger.

Imagine getting some really crushing news. Imagine your source of income just disappeared. Imagine someone you love and depend upon suddenly dies. Imagine the worst example of impermanence you can think of coming true. Would you be able to keep your mind still and respond skillfully?

A meditation master could, but we probably could not.

Our mindfulness simply doesn't have the energy powering it that our established patterns do. With practice mindfulness can overcome our weaker patterns, but not the really massive stuff that floors us. More practice is necessary. More draining energy from patterns into mindfulness is required.

That, it seems to me, is the value in mindfulness meditation.

TheJourney

nature lover wrote: »

Somewhere along the way I learned to meditate by focusing on the inside of my closed eyelids. As thoughts come up, I simply let them go and return my focus trying to keep focusing and make my mind a blank. I works pretty well for me. Is it necessary that I give this up in favor of focusing on my breathing?

I've been doing breath meditation, but during it's occured to me to possibly try that. Rather than thinking of my eyes being closed as not seeing anything, thinking of it as actively looking into darkness and focusing on that. Maybe i'll try tomorrow...

Whoknows

username_5 wrote: »

Imagine getting some really crushing news. Imagine your source of income just disappeared. Imagine someone you love and depend upon suddenly dies. Imagine the worst example of impermanence you can think of coming true. Would you be able to keep your mind still and respond skillfully?

A meditation master could, but we probably could not.

You would be surprised. At one potentially bad time in my life when someone I care for was in mortal danger, samadhi kicked in. It didn't take me away from the situation but allowed me to act appropriately. The danger passed and we moved on. Yet I'm no expert, we all have the same problems with our meditation. The mindfulness of meditation can exert itself at any time to anyone that meditates. That's part of our refuge and well worth regular meditation practise. It didn't help save someone's life but it could. In other words "don't sell yourself short!"

Cheers, WK

caz

Meditation on the Breath is fine but you can only go so far with this friend, Meditation on the Breath is a mundane Object of meditation, The point of meditation in general is to move your mind to a positive subject, In order to calm the mind it is best to engage in the preliminaries of Meditation upon the Breath to turn your mind toward a tranquil state ready for positive minds to rise via the Lamrim practise. Mundane Objects do not yeild great results, Concentration upon Supramundane Objects however move the mind sufficently to make it permenantly peacefull and blissfull.

Contemplation and Placement meditation are the essential for training the mind This is how the great masters have attained, and this is how the Buddhas have attained remaining single pointedly upon the breath may take you into deep states of bliss arising from concentration But without the minds motivated by renunciation and Bodhichitta we shall still remind bound to Samsara.

So take Breathing meditation as a preliminary to Contemplation and placement for the most effective.

sukhita

Breath meditation, by itself, is the development of one-pointedness of mind. In this practice, you fix the attention on the breath until the mind enters as deep stillness. This quietens the mind and suppresses mental impurities such as anger, greed, etc. When you stop meditating, however, the negative emotions eventually return. This practice leads to calm and tranquility, but to attain "insights" into the true nature of phenomena, one needs to also practice other forms of meditation.

ShiftPlusOne

sukhita, I don't think that's the case. The tranquillity and calm goes away, but the training doesn't. You can recognise ignorance/anger/craving when it arises and act accordingly.

I haven't done other kinds of meditation and I don't practice mindfulness in everyday situations. However, mindfulness does kick in when appropriate.

sukhita

ShiftPlusOne wrote: »

sukhita, I don't think that's the case. The tranquillity and calm goes away, but the training doesn't. You can recognise ignorance/anger/craving when it arises and act accordingly.

I haven't done other kinds of meditation and I don't practice mindfulness in everyday situations. However, mindfulness does kick in when appropriate.

Breath meditation has its benefits, it does include being "mindful" of the breaths; and I agree with you that it enhances ones "mindfulness". But that, in itself, is only a part of the Path. When the time is right, one should include other forms of meditation.

ShiftPlusOne

Agreed

seeker242

Tosh wrote: »

Hi guys,

I'm a little confused and would like some advice.

I've heard that meditating on the breath has good benefit, however, it's just 'meditating on stupid' (that's the phrase I heard). And it was contemplation, placement meditation that was being pushed (Lamrim), because that actually changes you into an Enlightened being.

But I've been listening to Adyashanti True Meditation CD set (he's Zen), and he basically meditates on 'nothing', just allowing the moment to be as it is (well that's the 1st of the 3 guided meditations he gives).

So, I was wondering, what's your views? Should meditation be more about contemplation - placement meditation for best effect?

Do you mix 'n' match meditation types? What?

Sorry for the vague questions, but I'm hoping you'll get my drift here! :crazy:

I would not say breath meditation is "meditating on stupid" as is developing the essential powers of concentration which leads to what "right concentration" is.

Adyashanti's "True Meditation" meditating on "nothing" is essentially Dogen's Shikantaza that is being called a different name. Which leans more toward insight rather than just concentration.

TheJourney

sukhita wrote: »

Breath meditation, by itself, is the development of one-pointedness of mind. In this practice, you fix the attention on the breath until the mind enters as deep stillness. This quietens the mind and suppresses mental impurities such as anger, greed, etc. When you stop meditating, however, the negative emotions eventually return. This practice leads to calm and tranquility, but to attain "insights" into the true nature of phenomena, one needs to also practice other forms of meditation.

Just curious, what other forms of meditation would you recommend? That lead to insight?

sukhita

TheJourney wrote: »

Just curious, what other forms of meditation would you recommend? That lead to insight?

I would recommend vipassana meditation (also called Insight meditation) This type of meditation is not just about stilling the mind, but about observing it. The general idea is to note sensations, emotions and thoughts as they arise, and to let them pass through your mind without attaching to them. The goal is to experience direct knowledge of impermanence (anicca). Both moving and sitting forms of Insight meditation are taught. There will be some differences in the methods employed, depending on the traditions or specific teachers. Another type of meditation that leads to direct realization is Zazen, which also has variations in the way it is taught. Just google "vipassana" or "zazen" for more information. I hope this helps....