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Question about Malas?

zpwestonzpweston Explorer
edited October 2010 in Meditation
What is the best way to explain to my girlfriend why she can't touch my mala, without offending her?
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Comments

  • edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    What is the best way to explain to my girlfriend why she can't touch my mala, without offending her?

    Get her one of her own or give yours to her since it already has been used and has some heat to it.
    I am not too rigid about this personally. If I have practiced with a mala and someone else touches it I usually just hope that some of the heat of practice rubs off on them.
  • TreeLuvr87TreeLuvr87 Veteran
    edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    What is the best way to explain to my girlfriend why she can't touch my mala, without offending her?

    Just explain gently that the mala is a tool for you, and one that you don't want anyone else to touch for your own spiritual reasons. That shouldn't offend her. Make sure to emphasize that you wouldn't want ANYONE to touch it, so she doesn't think it's just her. That's the only way I could see her being offended.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Could someone explain why it's so important to have no one else touch it
  • edited October 2010
    Could someone explain why it's so important to have no one else touch it

    Karma Cooties!

    ;)
  • edited October 2010
    Could someone explain why it's so important to have no one else touch it

    There is a lot of personal intimate connection with the implements that make it a bit taboo to share them with others.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited October 2010
    There is a lot of personal intimate connection with the implements that make it a bit taboo to share them with others.

    Could you elaborate further? Are you referring to a "clinging" sort of connection, or something more metaphysical?
  • edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    What is the best way to explain to my girlfriend why she can't touch my mala, without offending her?

    Just tell her that the attachment you have for your mala, exceeds your attachment for her - that should do the trick :D
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Just tell her that the attachment you have for your mala, exceeds your attachment for her - that should do the trick :D
    Me thinks there's a message in between them there lines. :)
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    What is the best way to explain to my girlfriend why she can't touch my mala, without offending her?

    Get her one of here own.
    Also tell her that the Mala is a personal tool used to channel enlightened Energy Into Increasing the efficency of your practise and that If used by others without the proper know how and Intentions that the Energy will dissapear.

    Of course me having said this is rather bogus as the actual energy it accumulates is upon your mental continuum. :)
    :lol:
  • edited October 2010
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by allanstevns viewpost.gif
    Just tell her that the attachment you have for your mala, exceeds your attachment for her - that should do the trick :D

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Me thinks there's a message in between them there lines. :)



    I second that about the OP. :confused: Is this a side effect of some other issue?
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I'm glad this message awoke such a conversation. Thank you all again. May all beings be peaceful.
  • edited October 2010
    Could someone explain why it's so important to have no one else touch it


    Superstition ? :)



    .
  • WonderingSeekerWonderingSeeker Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I know everyone seems to have different opinions on malas (depending on traditions I guess?) but I found this youtube video by Tsem Tulku Rinpoche very interesting.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHdbLJo2kPs

    I hope it is ok to post a link to it? :confused:


    The reason I post it here is because I have been looking for information about malas & I saw this thread & was concerned about the "sacredness" (probably not quite the right word but I hope it conveys the right meaning) which seems to attached to malas in general. There seem to be quite a few "rules" to using them, wearing them, handling them, who can touch them etc & I was beginning to think I should not have one at all. Then I saw this thread & thought the video might be helpful/interesting.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I know everyone seems to have different opinions on malas (depending on traditions I guess?)

    It depends very heavily on the tradition. Tibetan tradition seems to have most of the "rules" so to speak. Other traditions don't have any rules on them. I think my wrist mala is under the couch right now since my cats seem to enjoy playing with them. That would probably be a big no no in Tibetan practice. :)
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I think, much like everything else aside from certain traditions everything depends on the person. It's just a matter of what works for you. I mean you could think of your mala as a positive energy storage and anyone who touches just adds to the universal energy, maybe there shouldn't be so many restrictions on something like this. The more i read the answers it seems to differ person to person, I mean isn't a little non-Buddhist to restrict someone from receiving your karmic energy. I mean aren't malas mostly to chant loving kindness mantras or things of that nature and by saying no one but me can touch it doesn't that kind of seem non productive. So many maybe everyone should touch it, or not. You decide for your own mala.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    I think, much like everything else aside from certain traditions everything depends on the person. It's just a matter of what works for you. I mean you could think of your mala as a positive energy storage and anyone who touches just adds to the universal energy, maybe there shouldn't be so many restrictions on something like this. The more i read the answers it seems to differ person to person, I mean isn't a little non-Buddhist to restrict someone from receiving your karmic energy. I mean aren't malas mostly to chant loving kindness mantras or things of that nature and by saying no one but me can touch it doesn't that kind of seem non productive. So many maybe everyone should touch it, or not. You decide for your own mala.
    I think you've reached a good, workable conclusion. In the end, it's a "tool." One to help you along your path. So you either share that tool with others, or you present them with one of their own. If they are not Buddhist, then your gift is one of loving-kindness. And that can't be bad.
  • edited October 2010
    Could you elaborate further? Are you referring to a "clinging" sort of connection, or something more metaphysical?
    It depends I think.
    Certain practices develop a connection and power through implements that are used over time. The implements are usually only used by the person they are intended for. I think there is a metaphysical level because we are using a lot of different methods that are associated with the implements and that is something very personal and profound.
    It shouldnt be a clinging thing although I am sure it is in many cases.
    If you ask me there is a bit of a taboo thing going on but I also think the idea of intimacy of practice can be useful.
  • edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    Superstition ? :)



    .

    Why even post in this thread?
    Your post is ignorant.
  • edited October 2010
    Why even post in this thread?
    Your post is ignorant.

    More attacks on me coming from you again shenpen nangwa?

    What's wrong with saying 'superstition' ? I was an offline Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for a long time, and its a valid point as far as I'm concerned.


    .
  • edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    More attacks on me coming from you again shenpen nangwa?

    What's wrong with saying 'superstition' ? I was an offline Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for a long time, and its a valid point as far as I'm concerned.


    .
    It wasnt an attack.
    You are good at attempting to play the victim though.
    If you had actually added an explanation that might have been relevant to the thread rather than smilies etc. you post might have come across as less ignorant.
    But, the way it was posted was simply rude, ignorant, and in no way contributed to the thread.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    its a valid point as far as I'm concerned.
    Validity aside, your presentation could use work. You thought you were being succinct, but it can easily be read as dismissive or abrupt and then the smile becomes patronizing. Taking a moment to contextualize your point at the onset probably would've avoided the exchange entirely. ;)


    //edit: Ah, shenpen largely made my point for me while I was typing.
  • edited October 2010
    So its ok for him to say that my posts are ignorant and I'm good at playing the victim is it?

    Jeez - if my smilie was patronising then so is yours, Lincoln!


    .
  • edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    So its ok for him to say that my posts are ignorant and I'm good at playing the victim is it?

    Jeez - if my smilie was patronising then so is yours, Lincoln!


    .
    Dude, read the thread.
    Your post was clearly patronizing and then you did accuse me of "attacking" you, which was just plain weird by the way.
  • edited October 2010
    .

    Don't call me 'Dude' please. I'm a woman, and I'm not American....and you're starting the ad homs again. Back off bully boy.


    .
  • edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    .

    Don't call me 'Dude' please. I'm a woman, and I'm not American....and you're starting the ad homs again. Back off bully boy.


    .
    "Bully boy", interesting.
    Whatever you say Dazzle.
    Maybe if you keep your posts relevant and leave out the clear bias behind them you wouldnt feel like you are being "attacked" when I respond to them indicating problems that they contain. Just a thought.
  • edited October 2010
    .

    Returning to the subject of malas, a Tibetan teacher once gave me his own mala which I used afterwards for several years myself.

    Another mala that I used for a long time I lent to a novice monk for a day when he was involved in chanting and ceremonies.

    No draining of energy took place. Everybody was happy.

    I maintain that in my opinion it's just superstition to think otherwise.

    Kind wishes to all and goodnight. :buck:



    .
  • edited October 2010
    A small point of order: Only arguments can be valid, not points.

    The reason not to have others touching your mala in the Tibetan tradition is mostly to do with the concept of "drip", which could be translated as obscuration or in a more vernacular sense as "bad vibes". Mipham Rinpoche describes this very well in the excerpt here:

    http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=15835

    As with most seemingly obscure things in Tibetan buddhism, there are precise reasons behind them that are shared as oral instructions in the course of one's deepening relationship with a lineage master. These teachings are never suspected to exist by the spiritual tourists that flit from master to master and tradition to tradition like starving bees.
  • edited October 2010
    karmadorje wrote: »
    A small point of order: Only arguments can be valid, not points.

    The reason not to have others touching your mala in the Tibetan tradition is mostly to do with the concept of "drip", which could be translated as obscuration or in a more vernacular sense as "bad vibes". Mipham Rinpoche describes this very well in the excerpt here:

    http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=15835

    As with most seemingly obscure things in Tibetan buddhism, there are precise reasons behind them that are shared as oral instructions in the course of one's deepening relationship with a lineage master. These teachings are never suspected to exist by the spiritual tourists that flit from master to master and tradition to tradition like starving bees.
    These are good points Karma.
    Drip is pretty interesting and also plays into Tibetan/Ayurvedic medicine as well.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    So its ok for him to say that my posts are ignorant and I'm good at playing the victim is it?
    No, it was excessive. I was trying to focus on the root cause rather than refereeing another spat. Unfortunately shenpen wasn't able to step up to the challenge of responding skillfully either. You both lose again.

    Let's move on.
  • edited October 2010
    your girlfriend can touch my mala if she wants zpweston
  • edited October 2010
    how do you use malas?
  • edited October 2010
    Tell her, NO.
    If she offends herself, then I think she is being childish. Simple as that; I don't want you to touch this which is from my property, and you are not going to do it because you should respect my space. And, if she asks why, then you explain. No need to reformulate some arguments from information here imho, you already have a reason why she shouldn't do it.
  • edited October 2010
    There are certain vows about keeping your ritual implements for your own personal use only. Not that I know them explicitly. Besides you need to have a certain empowerment of a certain yidam (tutelary meditational deity) to hold this vow. Of course, this applies to the Vajrayana only.
  • edited October 2010
    people who have broken their samayas, have no faith, wrong views, done many negative deeds etc... their obscurations and contaminated energy will contaminate your malas... using such a mala, one will not get attainment...
  • edited October 2010
    people who have broken their samayas, have no faith, wrong views, done many negative deeds etc... their obscurations and contaminated energy will contaminate your malas... using such a mala, one will not get attainment...
    Hahaha, nah, don't be so extreme; I'm for sure that there are non-buddhist person who have a much higher view and have benefited sentient beings much more than lots of "buddhists". To not have faith in the 3 jewels I think it is not so important (in the general sense of this, contrary to other religions were not having faith means annihilation).
    If you have some kind of empowerments, lots of practice, etc. it is not a good idea for them to touch your mala, it has a heavy karmic connection. But that doesn't mean that in the moment he/she touches it is going to start having weird dreams, etc.
  • edited October 2010
    It is not negative karmic connection... it is contamination / 'drip' as someone above mentioned...

    I am sure of what i said, but of course anyone here can choose what they want to believe...
  • edited October 2010
    Any objects one has on the altar, be it a Buddha statue, a mala, or a bell, should all be treated with "respect". One should not casually touch these objects. I would be quite happy to allow anyone to practice at my altar, but I will feel it inappropriate for anyone to just "toy" around with objects on the altar. But this is just me....
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited October 2010
    sukhita wrote: »
    Any objects one has on the altar, be it a Buddha statue, a mala, or a bell, should all be treated with "respect". One should not casually touch these objects. I would be quite happy to allow anyone to practice at my altar, but I will feel it inappropriate for anyone to just "toy" around with objects on the altar. But this is just me....

    They are just objects, no?

    I mean, I understand not wanting someone to pick them up and play around, but surely holding would be okay?


    Don't mind me, I'm new to all this stuff anyway.
  • edited October 2010
    They are just objects, no?

    They are objects... yes. But not just any object... they represent the Buddha and His teaching. It should not be looked as just a shelf with some ornaments.
    I mean, I understand not wanting someone to pick them up and play around, but surely holding would be okay?

    I'd say it would be ok if someone were to hold an object for closer examination, but not ok if all they want to do is just toy around with the objects. This is just my POV... you may view it differently, as would others.
    Don't mind me, I'm new to all this stuff anyway
    Not a problem... ask away.... :)
  • edited October 2010
    They are just objects, no?

    I mean, I understand not wanting someone to pick them up and play around, but surely holding would be okay?


    Don't mind me, I'm new to all this stuff anyway.
    Because the only reason to have an altar, is because we use them as a support for our understanding, i.e.: finally, in an ultimate sense, what it is in the altar it is not difference from our own nature. So, disrespecting the altar, is disrespecting oneself, the teachings, etc. And because of interdependence that is not a good idea. Now, of course it is totally different from a person who doesn't have idea from one that does, consequences are different.

    Also the Buddha said, before dying that in the future he was going to manifest in the form of scriptures, images, etc. That means, at least from my point of view, that the Buddha finally is not different from the teachings, and the teachings are not different from the internal transformation of the mind, so, if one is going to use an altar, then it is supposed that one bears in mind the significance of using a support and not as a veneration object.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2010
    Welcome to NewBuddhist, Alfonso. :)
  • edited October 2010
    Lincoln wrote: »
    Welcome to NewBuddhist, Alfonso. :)
    Thanks :D
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I feel as if everything that is being said is very much against everything that Buddhist believe. It sounds very western Christianized. I mean nothing is permanent and nothing should be worship, right. So what is the point of making this big deal about alters or malas. My question was asked without really consulting my own self first. So after much thought and from what I have learned thus far, isn't it kind of rude and not at all loving kindness to assume that someone is any less spiritually cleansed than yourself. I mean ya I agree my buddha statue is not a toy and should be respected, but respect and prohibiting are two different things. I mean lets put it in Christian terms, rosary aren't supposed to be worn around the neck, out of respect of sacredness, but they can be presented to others. I mean why would highly enlightened gurus and teacher give pieces and even full malas to students if it was a contamination issue. I highly doubt it's a superstition either, and should not be assumed as one. I believe it was meant as a safe guard, because in general others do not respect spiritual tradition. I mean do you bow in front of a cross every time you walk in front of one, or lay prostate towards the east five times a day in accordance to Allah. So how can Buddhist expect other religions to respect our spiritual beliefs we don't there's. Yes the prayer, and bowing are extreme cases, but it's the same thing. I think if the Buddha were a part of this conversation he would probably ask are you following someone else's idea or are you testing it for yourself. It's kind of like a spirit stick, don't let it touch the ground. Why? It will loose all it's power. Will it? Is anyone willing to find out or are we all so caught up in attaining enlightenment that we won't even see what happens. May all beings be peaceful.
  • edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    I feel as if everything that is being said is very much against everything that Buddhist believe. It sounds very western Christianized. I mean nothing is permanent and nothing should be worship, right. So what is the point of making this big deal about alters or malas. My question was asked without really consulting my own self first. So after much thought and from what I have learned thus far, isn't it kind of rude and not at all loving kindness to assume that someone is any less spiritually cleansed than yourself. I mean ya I agree my buddha statue is not a toy and should be respected, but respect and prohibiting are two different things. I mean lets put it in Christian terms, rosary aren't supposed to be worn around the neck, out of respect of sacredness, but they can be presented to others. I mean why would highly enlightened gurus and teacher give pieces and even full malas to students if it was a contamination issue. I highly doubt it's a superstition either, and should not be assumed as one. I believe it was meant as a safe guard, because in general others do not respect spiritual tradition. I mean do you bow in front of a cross every time you walk in front of one, or lay prostate towards the east five times a day in accordance to Allah. So how can Buddhist expect other religions to respect our spiritual beliefs we don't there's. Yes the prayer, and bowing are extreme cases, but it's the same thing. I think if the Buddha were a part of this conversation he would probably ask are you following someone else's idea or are you testing it for yourself. It's kind of like a spirit stick, don't let it touch the ground. Why? It will loose all it's power. Will it? Is anyone willing to find out or are we all so caught up in attaining enlightenment that we won't even see what happens. May all beings be peaceful.
    I think you should be a little more careful with your judgments regarding what is buddhist and what is not. This issue is different from what you said in your post, if you really did good research (and read the entire thread), you would have realize that this is not a mere "respect and devotion" protocol that we are speaking of, but about direct interdependence.
    At least from the Tantric point of view, when one has tantric empowerments, and one's own instruments are "blessed" by a Lama (or your root Guru) they become "charged", also when doing the practice.
    If you don't agree with tantric tradition that's another topic of discussion.
    Now, regardless if it is tantra or not tantra, as I said before: In the first place why do you have an altar? If you have one, then you must be conscious about the points I exposed before. If not, then it is because of faith. If it is by faith, then it is not a good idea to destroy the faith of others, even if it goes against Buddhadharma's point of view... you can't just disregards others' Dharma.
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I think you miss understood me, I am not speaking of other Buddhist, when i started this thread, if I was my girlfriend would not have had to been told that she could not touching. All I am saying is that I feel that in some ways Buddhism has become less about the product and more about the tools. A carpenter doesn't boast about how wonderful his saws are but about how great his bookcase is. So why set such a high importance on tools when they are just means of getting you towards enlightenment. I do understand the importance of respect, but I think a lot of people are misjudging respect and fear. I mean can you honestly say that you are more fit to handle malas than anyone else, isn't that presumptuous and egotistical? I'm not saying to allow anyone to touch them, but I don't think things of this nature should be so worrisome, too me this causes attachment and suffering.
  • edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    I think you miss understood me, I am not speaking of other Buddhist, when i started this thread, if I was my girlfriend would not have had to been told that she could not touching. All I am saying is that I feel that in some ways Buddhism has become less about the product and more about the tools. A carpenter doesn't boast about how wonderful his saws are but about how great his bookcase is. So why set such a high importance on tools when they are just means of getting you towards enlightenment. I do understand the importance of respect, but I think a lot of people are misjudging respect and fear. I mean can you honestly say that you are more fit to handle malas than anyone else, isn't that presumptuous and egotistical? I'm not saying to allow anyone to touch them, but I don't think things of this nature should be so worrisome, too me this causes attachment and suffering.
    For you there is not a difference between a common and mundane tool, and the boat that rides you to the other side of the endless sea?
    Then again, you are not understanding all the points that I put on my post; I don't want to re-write them again, but check again there the issues about interdependence and about mind attitude.
    If you continue to have doubts, then I'm sorry for not being more pedagogical (maybe it is because there is much still for me to master in English language) and please go to your teacher and ask him this same question... you could even comment him the answers you have received here.
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I feel that I am not going to take such things so seriously as my mala I will treat it as a counter until which time as I learn higher mantras, then maybe I will view my mala as highly as everyone here, but I doubt it. Like I said again, and as Buddha would say. Use me as the raft to the other side, but do not carry me on your back. Short paraphrase but I'm sure most have heard or read this. I'm not here to have a theological, or tradition based discussion with anyone, all I said is that should we all really hold something at such high accord to cause suffering?
  • edited October 2010
    zpweston wrote: »
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I feel that I am not going to take such things so seriously as my mala I will treat it as a counter until which time as I learn higher mantras, then maybe I will view my mala as highly as everyone here, but I doubt it. Like I said again, and as Buddha would say. Use me as the raft to the other side, but do not carry me on your back. Short paraphrase but I'm sure most have heard or read this. I'm not here to have a theological, or tradition based discussion with anyone, all I said is that should we all really hold something at such high accord to cause suffering?
    You are a tantric practitioner I see, then you have a tradition, a lama, a lineage. Go ask him about tantric instruments and debate him if you still have doubts (it is not bad to debate him in good terms, always in respect of course).
    I think I don't have anything new to say more than what has been said in my previous posts.
    Try not to jump off the raft before arriving to the other side.
  • edited October 2010
    Dear zpweston,

    I do not view my altar as a symbol but rather as the living presence of the body, speech and mind of the Buddhas. It doesn't merely represent something, it is that which is represented. In my house, the shrine room is off-limits for people that are not either practitioners or interested in becoming one so there really is no problem.

    I am not saying that other people should not touch other malas. They can do as they please. I am saying that the mala that I use for sadhana I keep free of any outside influence as much as possible, though sometimes I will wear it so that those who see me with it might make a connection with the Dharma however slight. If people see the mala around my neck and touch it without asking me, I don't freak out about it. I explain to them that it is a personal spiritual item that only I should touch and I have yet to have a single person tell me I am being elitist or condescending. To a person, they have been respectful and understanding.
  • zpwestonzpweston Explorer
    edited October 2010
    I'm not a tantric practitioner, and for that not to be clear, by my post then I guess we are both misunderstood. I don't follow anyone school for the simple reason that it seems far and beyond pointlessness. Plus I don't use a mast head for people to easily be able to stigmatize me, based on what is know about one tradition or another. All I can say for sure is that I am a practicing Buddhist. I am not here to insult anyone nor to assume anything, if I have I apologize, and for any obvious misunderstanding on my part I am sorry. This thread was never started for this purpose, I thought there was a clear laid out answer to my question and not a theological debate, that is still unanswerable. I have read the entire thread multiple times, but maybe I am missing what is truly being sad, and for this I again apologize. Maybe in my youth as a Buddhist I made an ultimate mistake in attempting to undertake a lofting topic as this as my first real question, and for this again I apologize. I hope no one lost sleep or meditation time over this heated topic, but I wish for all beings to be well, happy, and peaceful.
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