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Enlightenment in different traditions

JoshuaJoshua Member
in Buddhism for Beginners
Since there's very large amount of adherents to both Vedic and Shramanic traditions alike who earnestly believe they're reaching Nirvana/Moksha if I'm to have an integrity as an individual practising Buddhism I must assume they'd all reaching the same transcendental truth, correct?

Gautama thought the Vedic practises completely wrong (though probably the traditions, pantheon and caste more than the actual transcendentalism) so he opted rather to chase after Shramanic ones, only to find extremes that warranted his new philosophy of the "middle-way" as a superior alternative. Yet 2,600 years later people still maintain staunch convictions in their religion's doctrines no doubt fueled by their gurus' apparent enlightenment.
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Comments

  • TheJourneyTheJourney Member
    I can't say whether they achieved enlightenment. You can achieve very high levels of realizations within any religious tradition, however. I don't doubt that any person I meet can be very wise, regardless of religion.
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  • xbrokenfacexxbrokenfacex Member
    It has always seemed to me that since people are so different that it doesn't make much sense that there is only one path to enlightenment for every person. :)

    Just my opinion i guess.
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  • JoshuaJoshua Member
    Perhaps, but to a degree. How the hell are the monopoly of dualistic Vaishnavas achieving enlightenment? Or is that simply a farce for the religious man to live out the capitalistic life until the age of 80 when the truth that Vishnu isn't separate from you as you've always vehemently proselytized is bestowed upon you by the guru and finally you can achieve moksha? Or as I suspect this isn't the case and in fact the scriptures and philosophies don't matter? Non-dual and dual alike, we all find liberation? Then why be Buddhist? Why not some New-Age Transcendental Agnostic?
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  • TheJourneyTheJourney Member
    valois;140771 said:
    Perhaps, but to a degree. How the hell are the monopoly of dualistic Vaishnavas achieving enlightenment? Or is that simply a farce for the religious man to live out the capitalistic life until the age of 80 when the truth that Vishnu isn't separate from you as you've always vehemently proselytized is bestowed upon you by the guru and finally you can achieve moksha? Or as I suspect this isn't the case and in fact the scriptures and philosophies don't matter? Non-dual and dual alike, we all find liberation? Then why be Buddhist? Why not some New-Age Transcendental Agnostic?
    There is no reason to be buddhist, other than the fact that it explains the truth and the path to discovering it yourself/enlightenment. Yes, we will all find liberation, but why does it bother you if someone else doesn't follow buddhism and yet will eventually achieve enlightenment? "Buddhism" is just a word, like any other. It's insignificant. There is only the path. Follow your path, and don't worry about others beyond caring about all and helping all on their path.
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  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje Member
    TheJourney;140778 said:
    There is no reason to be buddhist, other than the fact that it explains the truth and the path to discovering it yourself/enlightenment. Yes, we will all find liberation, but why does it bother you if someone else doesn't follow buddhism and yet will eventually achieve enlightenment? "Buddhism" is just a word, like any other. It's insignificant. There is only the path. Follow your path, and don't worry about others beyond caring about all and helping all on their path.
    Word.
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  • JoshuaJoshua Member
    The anomaly for me is that one person can believe in an omnipotent dualistic God, Vishnu, and somehow achieve liberation, and then there's the tenets of Buddhism, which I'm obviously attracted to, but somehow these are both the truth? Like a dog chasing a car am I struggling with conviction in Buddhism because of these hypotheticals.
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  • upalabhavaupalabhava Member
    valois;140781 said:
    The anomaly for me is that one person can believe in an omnipotent dualistic God, Vishnu, and somehow achieve liberation, and then there's the tenets of Buddhism, which I'm obviously attracted to, but somehow these are both the truth? Like a dog chasing a car am I struggling with conviction in Buddhism because of these hypotheticals.

    It is not the adept's beliefs that are the cause of liberation, or even a hindrance to liberation. Rather, the removal of emotional obscurations is the cause of liberation. Cognitive obscurations will remain, however, even for a liberated being; beliefs, IMO, would fall under this category of cognitive obscurations.

    Fully enlightened beings (such as Buddhas) have removed both types of obscurations.
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  • TheJourneyTheJourney Member
    valois;140781 said:
    The anomaly for me is that one person can believe in an omnipotent dualistic God, Vishnu, and somehow achieve liberation, and then there's the tenets of Buddhism, which I'm obviously attracted to, but somehow these are both the truth? Like a dog chasing a car am I struggling with conviction in Buddhism because of these hypotheticals.
    None of it is true. That's the thing. Ultimately there is no separation, and in attempting to describe it you're separating "truth" from "untruth" and as such it is not the truth.
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  • JoshuaJoshua Member
    upalabhava;140784 said:
    It is not the adept's beliefs that are the cause of liberation, or even a hindrance to liberation. Rather, the removal of emotional obscurations is the cause of liberation. Cognitive obscurations will remain, however, even for a liberated being; beliefs, IMO, would fall under this category of cognitive obscurations.

    Fully enlightened beings (such as Buddhas) have removed both types of obscurations.
    this is intriguing, is there any way you can elabourate?
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  • upalabhavaupalabhava Member
    valois;140787 said:
    this is intriguing, is there any way you can elabourate?

    Well, what I am implying is that liberation (remember: this is liberation from suffering uncontrollable rebirths in samsara) is the cessation of those causes and conditions of suffering. A belief that the world was danced into being by Vishnu might not be a correct description of reality, but it doesn't cause suffering. It is an ignorance, for sure, but it is not the ignorance (avidya) that, along with greed and hatred, are the three causes of suffering uncontrollable rebirths. The ignorance that is a cause of suffering is one of not knowing behavioral cause and effect. This ignorance of karma is due to the blindness caused by emotional obscuration.

    The belief in Vishnu is an ignorance of anatman and sunyata.
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  • exonesionexonesion Member
    valois;140731 said:
    Since there's very large amount of adherents to both Vedic and Shramanic traditions alike who earnestly believe they're reaching Nirvana/Moksha if I'm to have an integrity as an individual practising Buddhism I must assume they'd all reaching the same transcendental truth, correct?

    Gautama thought the Vedic practises completely wrong (though probably the traditions, pantheon and caste more than the actual transcendentalism) so he opted rather to chase after Shramanic ones, only to find extremes that warranted his new philosophy of the "middle-way" as a superior alternative. Yet 2,600 years later people still maintain staunch convictions in their religion's doctrines no doubt fueled by their gurus' apparent enlightenment.


    The yogis of old had already developed Samatha(calm) but Vipassana(insight) begins with Lord Buddha.
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  • TheJourneyTheJourney Member
    upalabhava;140792 said:
    Well, what I am implying is that liberation (remember: this is liberation from suffering uncontrollable rebirths in samsara) is the cessation of those causes and conditions of suffering. A belief that the world was danced into being by Vishnu might not be a correct description of reality, but it doesn't cause suffering. It is an ignorance, for sure, but it is not the ignorance (avidya) that, along with greed and hatred, are the three causes of suffering uncontrollable rebirths. The ignorance that is a cause of suffering is one of not knowing behavioral cause and effect. This ignorance of karma is due to the blindness caused by emotional obscuration.

    The belief in Vishnu is an ignorance of anatman and sunyata.
    After ending the cycle, however, you may choose to come back for the benefit of all living beings and with the desire to yourself become a buddha.
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  • JoshuaJoshua Member
    exonesion;140793 said:
    The yogis of old had already developed Samatha(calm) but Vipassana(insight) begins with Lord Buddha.
    I believe Jain gurus taught Siddhartha the highest jhana meditation. Apparent the first taught him three and the second taught him the final, fourth jhana. Somehow being an inch from enlightenment wasn't fitting to find final release? Though I was under the impression that the meditation sequence usually goes samatha -> vipassana -> jhana. Is it possible that Siddhartha made lofty claims but was in all actuality taught vipassana by Jains. But as TheJourney says:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by upalabhava image
    Well, what I am implying is that liberation (remember: this is liberation from suffering uncontrollable rebirths in [I]samsara) is the cessation of those causes and conditions of suffering. A belief that the world was danced into being by Vishnu might not be a correct description of reality, but it doesn't cause suffering. It is an ignorance, for sure, but it is not the ignorance (avidya) that, along with greed and hatred, are the three causes of suffering uncontrollable rebirths. The ignorance that is a cause of suffering is one of not knowing behavioral cause and effect. This ignorance of karma is due to the blindness caused by emotional obscuration.

    The belief in Vishnu is an ignorance of anatman and sunyata.[/I]
    After ending the cycle, however, you may choose to come back for the benefit of all living beings and with the desire to yourself become a buddha.
    I don't think any of this really matters because I don't even believe Gautama existed and all the stories are legends.

    The only real important thing is as upalabhava said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by valois image
    this is intriguing, is there any way you can elabourate?
    Well, what I am implying is that liberation (remember: this is liberation from suffering uncontrollable rebirths in samsara) is the cessation of those causes and conditions of suffering. A belief that the world was danced into being by Vishnu might not be a correct description of reality, but it doesn't cause suffering. It is an ignorance, for sure, but it is not the ignorance (avidya) that, along with greed and hatred, are the three causes of suffering uncontrollable rebirths. The ignorance that is a cause of suffering is one of not knowing behavioral cause and effect. This ignorance of karma is due to the blindness caused by emotional obscuration.

    The belief in Vishnu is an ignorance of anatman and sunyata.
    But as rational as even Buddhism is, there's quite a bit of faith. Using the noble truths as an alternative to popular psychology is one thing, but in order to circumvent rebirths is an entirely different thing laced with many dogmatic implications.
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  • exonesionexonesion Member
    valois;140800 said:
    I believe Jain gurus taught Siddhartha the highest jhana meditation. Apparent the first taught him three and the second taught him the final, fourth jhana. Somehow being an inch from enlightenment wasn't fitting to find final release? Though I was under the impression that the meditation sequence usually goes samatha -> vipassana -> jhana. Is it possible that Siddhartha made lofty claims but was in all actuality taught vipassana by Jains.

    Here is a quote:
    Now the records show that the yogis of ancient India practised these jhānas long before Buddha's time, and he himself practised and attained them under two teachers of yoga. Dissatisfied by finding in them nothing ultimate, however, he abandoned them in disgust and turned his attention to severe
    austerities of mind and flesh. These austerities, however, neither culminated in enlightenment nor the extinction of passion and rebirth. And, why? In his struggles under the Bodhi-tree, we witness him reflecting upon the fact that it is impossible to kindle a fire by rubbing wet green sticks. Even so, those
    ascetics no matter how they carried their self-tortures to extremity, attained neither enlightenment nor release because of the passion and lust unextinguished within. Thus if ascetics perished in any of the above jhānas they took up their abode among the deities of the Brahma or Arūpa-Brahma planes, remaining there often for kalpas (aeons, or world-cycles). Their merit exhausted, however, rebirth became inevitable.
    This suggest that Jhana is a part of Samatha--> Vipassana.
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  • upalabhavaupalabhava Member
    valois;140800 said:

    But as rational as even Buddhism is, there's quite a bit of faith. Using the noble truths as an alternative to popular psychology is one thing, but in order to circumvent rebirths is an entirely different thing laced with many dogmatic implications.

    I thought we were talking about moksha in various traditions. Moksha is liberation from samsara.

    And, yes, faith is involved. Before you can come to know what enlightenment is, you must have faith that enlightenment is possible. Even rational science is built upon faith, a faith that (empirical) evidence is sufficient for proof.
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