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OBEY AUTHORITY
MindGate
United States Veteran
Step down, America, your God is in control.
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Your thoughts?
0
Comments
Parents will listen to the first few minutes and give approval for their kids to watch it. The message is a good one in the first part. THEN at the end the Christian message is slipped in: totally sleazy. Parents will have no idea what the message is!!
Like those TV commercials for Betterlife.org (?I'm not sure exactly what it's called). Nice encouraging, heartwarming, apparently secular scenarios resulting in more website hits where they sell Jesus.
Kind of like those Bosley Hair restoration ads where they never mention "hair plugs" until they absolutely have to.
Oh well...,
Resisting Influence
Prepared by Philip Zimbardo and Cindy X. Wang
Cialdini’s Principles of Social Influence
Authority [Context: Credibility]
The Basics
Milgram’s studies of obedience provide evidence of a strong pressure for compliance with the requests of authority figures
Strength of tendency to obey comes from systematic socialization of society members that obedience constitutes correct conduct
Frequently adaptive to obey dictates of genuine authorities because such individuals usually possess high levels of knowledge, wisdom, and power
Deference to authorities can occur in a mindless fashion as a decision-making shortcut
Tendency to respond to "symbols and signs of authority" rather than to its substance
Failure to distinguish between Just and Unjust Authority
------------------------
We learned alot about society's obedience to authority and what it makes people capable of.
I don't think Jesus would even consider himself a Just Authority.
:thumbsup:
I think if the message was specifically about listening to and respecting your parents, it would have a similar message but a bit better. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
I believe the video is just reinforcing what the schools do, condition someone to automatically submit to authority type of thing. Not question anything.
I dont know, maybe it's cuz I used to listen to this type of message when I was an young teenager:
kinda, but not really.
respect.
Ahh I've learned that the kids wrote this song... weird.
Wow, now I see how freeky that video is!
"children listen to what your father teaches you
and respect your mother's teaches too"
reminds me of lyrics from the Bikini Kill song "Suck My Left One"
"mama says:
you've got to be polite girl
you've got to be polite
show a little respect for your father
WAIT UNTIL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME!"
except the lyrics in "suck my left one" are meant to be sarcastic because her father used to sexually abuse her. hrm.
Here's to the authority and my attachment to God. Some Mischief Brew...
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but here goes:
I'm sure that if HH Dalai Lama were to tell me to do something (for my own good) I'm going to do it.
If I'm hostage in Iraq and a squad of special forces commandos bursts into the room cuts my chains and commands me to run away with them I will do it.
If there's some commotion on the highway and a cop tells me to stop and pull over: I'll do it.
If a heart surgeon and his team tells me to do stuff on the day of my surgery I'm gonna do EVERYTHING they tell me to do without question.
In the Kalama Suttra, and elsewhere, The Buddha explains pretty clearly that one should not follow any authority for any reason. Not because of tradition or assumption or even respect. The only authority is that which is created within oneself when they understands and cannot doubt that such and such a thing is right, or wholesome or able to be known directly.
Where did the authoritarian aspects of Buddhism come from?
It's almost as if the Buddha's profound doctrine of non-authoritarian self-illumination wasn't popular with the authorities?
Sppppppoooooky
Milgram's work is one of the most important peices of research around and clearly shows the dangers of mindless obedience. Other research has shown that knowing about Milgram changes people as they are less likely to mindlessly obey orders.
Zimbardo's work shows the dangers of depersonalization and institutionalisation for both those in authority (the guards) and those being controlled (the prisoners). Everyone thinks that they would not behave in cruel and sadistic ways if put into authority, this research shows that to be untrue.
Reminding people that they are individuals and are responsible for their behaviour decreases abuses of power and mindless obedience. The research shows
that too.
Balance is essential. Even in Buddhist monasteries there is authority and the ordained are expected to follow instruction, but to think about why they are doing it and whether it is wholesome to do so.
Sure, but I am guessing you mean state controlled authority, rather than cooperative authority (anarchism).
>>>>Even in Buddhist monasteries there is authority and the ordained are expected to follow instruction...
Do you think this is how it was in the Buddha's time?
The crucial point is that of the informed conscience. Parents, schools, universities and churches seem to me to have the reciprocal duty to enable and furnish this informed awareness in our young. I'm not sure that they are doing the job.
Yes, if you are told by military commandos to do things when you're a hostage, you should do it, BUT QUESTION IT FIRST. Don't follow any orders mindlessly, unless theres no time to think. I wouldn't listen to anyone without questioning it first. Any advice or instructions I will refuse to follow if they don't add up with my own logic.
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I had a full on argument with a teacher today in school for being a dumbass. I was chatting with my friends as we were doing work (at appropriate times, such as when someone was looking up a translated word), and she yelled at us and told us to stop, so I did. My other friend kept talking though, so I told him to stop talking and the teacher spazzed on me. Pretty much went like this:
Teacher: I'll write you up! Stop talking and do your work!
Me: I was telling Tom to stop talking and I am doing my work.
Teacher: No you weren't I heard you talking this entire period.
Me: And I stopped when you told me to. Though, we need to talk to do our work too, but at this point I was telling Tom to stop talking.
Teacher: Oh, yeah, ahuh, I see. Come sit up here, okay, away from everyone and do your work!
Me: I am working with them. All of our work is on this one paper. You can't do that.
Teacher: Then stop talking.
Me: I can't. I have to talk to work, we're in a group. Plus I wasn't even doing anything wrong, I told Tom to stop.
Teacher: I heard you talking the entire period. I'll write you up.
Eventually I gave up and just refused to do anything the rest of the period and then wrote up on the board: "If you have a job and you are doing your job, and someone of authority tells you that you are not doing your job, you are automatically wrong. Step down, America."
Sitting in class my friend pokes my back from the seat behind me.
"What are you doing"
"Nothing"
The teacher looks at me.
What did you say?
"Nothing"
You're lying I heard you talking, what did you say?
"Nothing"
Then he kicked me out of class
ahahaha classic.
We're never taught the answer to that question are we.
As far as monasteries, yes, there is an authority structure, but those who practice in those monasteries willfully do so. This would be clearly different than a non-voluntary caste system.
We don't know what the Buddha made clear on any matter, as I often remind those who state such bold claims. However, wit seem's very reasonable to assume that were any part of the Buddha's doctrine to be intentionally or accidentally expunged from the Cannon it would be that which directly confronted the very authority that because the Buddhist authority.
We do know that there were schisms and fractures in the doctrine and message, I imagine these were more likely to be about authority, than, say, the best mudra for level 30 stream stepping;)
>>>>As far as monasteries, yes, there is an authority structure, but those who practice in those monasteries willfully do so. This would be clearly different than a non-voluntary caste system.
Clearly the culture that is dominant is the culture that dominates. I do not believe that the idea of a "buddhist monastry" is an idea of the Buddha.
Incidentally, I am not at all against monasteries, I have spent lots of time in them all over the palace and my favourite place is a particular Bhodi tree in a therevardan monastery in Sri Lanka.
But you stated this in an earlier post: And I stated that the Buddha made it clear that castes are fictional.
No, I think there are some truths we know totally, such as non Contradicton or Anica.
There are also empircale truths that we can know certainly, such as "I am hot."
>>>>"Deformed">>>>>But you stated this in an earlier post: Yes, including the kalama suttra:) This should be the first suttra we try to reject.
>>>>"Deformed">>>>>And I stated that the Buddha made it clear that castes are fictional.
Sorry, I don't follow this:)
>>>>"Deformed">>>>>Perhaps everyting in the canon is a verification of what can be found when practicing the core teachings: the eightfold path and noble truths.
Yes, about those and other things, but about rebirth, titans, magic, miracles and the non dharmic monastic precepts (as opposed to the clearly dharmic five precepts)?
>>>Yes, schisms are typically a power struggle. If we saw Buddhism as "above" or "unsusceptable" of that, we wouldn't be practicing.
Sure. It amazes me how many buddhists cowtow to authorities, still.
Remember = teachers see kids come and go over the years. They've dealt with "your type" dozens of times before. IMHO? You gotta introduce some Buddhist wisdom into your dealings. In effect develop a new type of student. You'd be the first member of that type. My bet is they never saw THAT "type" before. Mischevious and fun yet respectful and aware of where the lines can be crossed. Supportive of peers' and teachers' often mutually exclusive interests without either getting offended or concluding you are less than genuine..
>>>>"Deformed">>>>>But you stated this in an earlier post: Ok, I understand more clearly about where you're going with this. Yes, question the Buddha with our own insights! I can understand why now, because I didn't understand you before.
It would depend on how you looked at those things, correct?
It amazes me less, the more I find bits and pieces of this in my own experience. Then I question what I didn't see as an "authority" before.
Romans 13:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
My thoughts....
>>>>>deformed>>>>It would depend on how you looked at those things, correct?
No I don't think so. I think there is a dhrama that we can term "core" that is shared between all views of Dharma.
Annica, Anataman, Dukka
The Four Noble Truths
The Noble Eightfold Path
These are all generally agreed on, internally consistent, interexplanatory and interdependent. Most importantly, "core dharma" is unable to be doubted, however hard we try.
I simply think it is obvious that the same cannot be said about "rebirth, titans, magic, miracles" or any specific practice.
>>>>(authority)it amazes me less, the more I find bits and pieces of this in my own experience.
We are constantly subjugated, but we must be realistic in that big parts of that are cooperative and even karmically "wholesome", eg obeying speedlimmits.
>>>>Then I question what I didn't see as an "authority" before.
Still, I think it is closed minded to not see that the dukka of global oppression and injustice is still the same kind of dukka that is conected with you getting annoyed because the resturant is closed.
The most important authority you revolt against is your ego:)
Fight the wars you can win;)
namaste
Yes, the core teachings are generally agreed upon, however, not because they are the core teachings, but perhaps because the reality of them can be found in practice. As words, they are just as empty as rebirth, titans, magic and miracles.
And as those core teachings contain an expression of the reality of impermanence, it seems fitting that our views of rebirth, miracles etc. would change. But that is for us to find for ourselves, isn't it?
The suffering that comes with constantly wanting what we don't have and overlooking what we do have can be painful enough to bring us to the practice of mindfulness. Egos are funny.
Namaste
The core dharma can be experienced, cannot be doubted (though we should try very hard) and is internally consistent and explanatory.
>>>>it seems fitting that our views of rebirth, miracles etc. would change. But that is for us to find for ourselves, isn't it?
I am not sure, because I think that such views may be as delusional and attachable as views about the imaginary ego.
>>>If we can ignore nonsensical laws (eg. You may not wear a hat past 7 pm) then it illustrates again how empty words are, because we may make decisions from rule to rule, based on our views of the action we take and the rule itself.
Sure, but the analogy needs to attach genuine penalties to the disobeying of such nonsensical laws to work with reality. A nonsense law that sends you to jail is terrible.
>>>The suffering that comes with constantly wanting what we don't have and overlooking what we do have can be painful enough to bring us to the practice of mindfulness.
Sure, and dharma is the path through that process.
>>>Egos are funny.
I think, in the history of humanity, egos have caused more frowns than smiles:p
if not, Arkadia is good enough. (the environment - nature - has power)
"Think for yourself
Question authority
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.
Think for yourself.
Question authority.
"
The Dharma is the "only Law in town" :rockon:
badge in, get high, go green.
Oh, yeah I respect my Dad
and his wives
and all his other wives
I love what he asks me to do
and especially, yea yea,
when he wants me to marry
the Bishop
yea yea
come on come on, Obey, authority, yea yea,
its ground in to my brain now.......