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I find the question unsettling. Slightly insulting, even. I'll have to think about why that is.... _________________________
@ federica -- Is it perhaps because, in some measure, you concur with the notion that anyone could mark or measure the realms of practice? You know, the whole "stages" routine? Just noodling here, but which of us hasn't tried to contrast one "anguish" with another or compare one "love" with another? Which of us hasn't wanted to know that s/he isn't wasting time and longs for a gold star to prove it. Yo Adrian -- I'm a Buddhist and I have a gold star to prove it ... something like that.
It doesn't work, but that doesn't mean it's not a magnet in this practice.
Yes, reading about someone else putting in 4-6 hours meditation a day certainly gave me something to think about!
I also tried to work out how long it would take me to reach the benchmark of 10,000 hours practice that is referred to in many studies of 'serious' meditators! Its going to be a while apparently until I qualify as a 'serious' meditator!
Perhaps, there lies the difference between Mahayana & Theravada.I am less concerned about helping others before developing myself. Mainly because I dont feel well-equipped to help others when I could be coming from an unwholesome state of mind.
I just read the question for the first time, and thought, "The folks here will certainly have a good time discussing what it means to be serious about Buddhism" And I was right.
I think I know what JLL was asking, but it's kind of hard to answer. I've never felt the burning desire to be a monk, for instance, but then again in many Buddhist cultures, neither have many of the monks, probably. It's just something available to young men as a career.
How about secular versus non-secular? Formal versus informal? Or those who make the effort to join a local sangha, or community of Buddhists instead of going it alone? I don't know if one is more serious than another.
Let's try this. When I first started many years ago, finding a sangha to help me with my practice and being part of a community was very important to me. More important than living close to my family or moving to where there was a good paying job. Over the years my practice became much more private and my life revolves around being a good husband and grandfather and providing for a family. I moved far away from old Teachers or any temple I'd be interested in joining without a hesitation because it was needed to provide for my family.
So I still meditate and follow the 8-fold path, but to look at me, I'd rate a "zero" on the scale right now. On the scale of trying to help all beings, I remain pegged at 11. And who knows? Maybe in the future I'll be the oldest monk ever ordained in Kwan Um.
When you figure out do tell us. For an analogy, I will use the example of preparing for an important examination. As a student, I will gauge how disciplined I was in studying for the exam. You could say it is a very subjective measure. But after putting in a certain number of hours of revision and having a good grasp of the materials, I feel satisfied & fairly confident going into the exam. I would use the same measure about my seriousness in buddhism. Again, I must emphasize, it is for self evaluation, not to live up to others' expectation or to judge other people. But I suppose if you are a monk or practsing with a teacher, your teacher will evaluate your seriousness. Basically, if human rebirth is extremely rare, I think I should be more serious. Here is a popular story about how rare human rebirth is. The following analogy illustrates just how rare it is: Imagine that upon the surface of a vast ocean floats a yoke tossed continuously by wind and waves. Within that ocean swims a blind tortoise that surfaces for air once every hundred years. Of course, it is possible for the tortoise to emerge with its head [passing] through the yoke that bobs on the surface, but the chances that this will occur are extremely rare. Obtaining this precious human birth is just as rare as the tortoise surfacing for air one time in a hundred years with its head [passing] through the bobbing yoke. Surely this [surfacing] is possible, but it is so difficult and unlikely that it is next to impossible. Obtaining the precious human birth is likewise difficult.
I find the question unsettling. Slightly insulting, even. I'll have to think about why that is.... _________________________
@ federica -- Is it perhaps because, in some measure, you concur with the notion that anyone could mark or measure the realms of practice? You know, the whole "stages" routine? Just noodling here, but which of us hasn't tried to contrast one "anguish" with another or compare one "love" with another? Which of us hasn't wanted to know that s/he isn't wasting time and longs for a gold star to prove it. Yo Adrian -- I'm a Buddhist and I have a gold star to prove it ... something like that.
It doesn't work, but that doesn't mean it's not a magnet in this practice.
"Perhaps, there lies the difference between Mahayana & Theravada.I am less concerned about helping others before developing myself. Mainly because I dont feel well-equipped to help others when I could be coming from an unwholesome state of mind."
I am lead to believe that my mahayana teacher agrees with your feeling. That is why lamas take retreats rather than spend as much time as possible with their students. They come out of the retreat better able to help.
because if 1 is reading books, coming on here, and trying our best to put his teachings into our daily life. and then 10 is ordaining as a monk then what 23456789??
I think you either practice buddhism in your daily life or you dont. You either become a monk or you dont. ALOT of people on here will be ranked at 1. I doubt very much you are talking to monks from thailand.
Once, a long time ago, a Buddhist Master used to tell his monks that he knew of a family living nearby where Father, Mother, and Daughter were all enlightened after hearing the words of the Patriarch only once, so if the poor lay people could do it, then certainly the monks should know they can do it. One monk, tiring of hearing this and wondering if the Master was being fooled, found out the name of this family and went to see what they were like.
He first encountered the Father working in his orchard, and asked how difficult it was to be enlightened. "Oh, hard, hard, hard!" the Father replied. "It's like counting every peach on every tree in my orchard, every single day!"
He then encountered the Mother, who was busy preparing the daily meal for the family. He asked this woman how difficult she found it to be enlightened. "Oh, easy, easy, easy!" she replied. "Like putting your shoes on when you get up in the morning!"
The monk started to leave, pondering this, when he encounterd the daughter coming back from the stream with a bucket of water. He asked the girl if she agreed with her father, that enlightenment was difficult, or her mother, that enlightenment was easy.
"Not difficult, not easy," the girl replied. "On the tips of every blade of grass, the Patriarch's meaning!"
With that, the monk's eyes were opened to the true Dharma.
This story is not saying that the Father was wrong, or that the Mother was wrong, or even the Daughter. They all took their Buddhism seriously.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@ federica -- Is it perhaps because, in some measure, you concur with the notion that anyone could mark or measure the realms of practice? You know, the whole "stages" routine?
No, I think it's just that I find the question intrusive, and none of anybody's business but the person's themselves. Besides, as I've said, my number 3 (being vague, unscripted and undefined) may be miles ahead of somebody else's number 3. Or miles behind. Who's to know? And who's business is it but mine?
Does seriousness imply pretentiousness - obsessiveness - indulgence - or devotion?
Impermanence casts a silly shadow on rating how serious one might be - about anything!
If "great effort" equates to "serious" - then, okay there is validity in learning about Buddhism "seriously".
Multitudes don't get it in this life - even though the Dharma is splashed all over the place. How fortunate to have found the path - the punchline to the rude joke of reality. How seriously can we take absurdity? The Buddha's great compassion for all sentient beings intended only that they "awaken" to the truth of existence and realize the great peace of liberation from ignorance - not be some sort of fanatic to dogma or rules....
Buddhism has more to do with what I am rather than what I do. I guess after 45 years of living with Buddhism that makes it my entire frame of reference.
So I guess I'm a 10. I wanted to go to Dharmsala but I "waited" ( ) long enough that Dharmsala came to me. I guess if the monks from Dharmsala and HHDL came to where I lived, that would be even better than going to Thailand, so I myself and all the people who experienced that must be 10s.
Where does wiping other people's butts (who are unable) as part of "right livelihood" place me?
I don't know where I fit on this scale, I am a full time mum to a (nearly) 7yr old, partner, part time university student (3rd year) and part time work with special needs students. I read as much as I can find time for, spend a lot of time working out the right decisions on the big things and make sure I do my best to follow the precepts. By your definition I am probably not very high, but I feel very serious about changing myself and the bits of the world I affect for the positive.
I think that someone would have to be just a little bit past 1 if they are reading Buddhist books. I would say that 1 is when people simply participate in forums or online sources of information.
I suppose since the descriptions constrain one's answer, I'm at 1. Although that seems very low in my actual "seriousness" I feel about learning Buddhism! I'm actually quite serious, just not capable, yet, to really explore anything other than online information.
Who is wiser, the one who can spout doctrine like a kettle spouts steam but finds kindness and honesty hard to practice, or the one who can be kind and truthful, but knows little doctrine?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I would say the sprouting kettle because in his quiet moments alone,e he has to reflect on all the words that came out of his mouth. Mother Theresa is wonderful but does she know anything about Buddhism?
Who is wiser, the one who can spout doctrine like a kettle spouts steam but finds kindness and honesty hard to practice, or the one who can be kind and truthful, but knows little doctrine?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2011
Mother Theresa is wonderful but does she know anything about Buddhism?
One, Mother Teresa (no 'h') is dead, and two, yes, she knew a great deal about it. She and HHDL corresponded often.
I was named after mother Teresa... I have to say I go with thickpaper here, it makes more karmic sense that somebody who knows little about actual Buddhist teachings but works hard to be good to others, than somebody who knows 'everything' but has a lot of difficulty putting it in to practice.
I was named after mother Teresa... I have to say I go with thickpaper here, it makes more karmic sense that somebody who knows little about actual Buddhist teachings but works hard to be good to others, than somebody who knows 'everything' but has a lot of difficulty putting it in to practice.
I guess given my exposure and experience in Buddhism, I'm a 1 according to @jll. However, my desire to really live and follow the Dharma is totally serious. So according to ME, I'm a 10 *shrugs*
On a scale of 1 to 10. 10 means going to Thailand to ordain. 1 means reading Buddhist books and coming to this forum. Please describe what you intend to do or are doing.
When I first found Buddhism, I did four ten day silent meditation retreats in a row and practised at least six hour a day of meditation in between. In my last two retreats, I sat so much, I could hardly walk. Whilst others were doing their walking meditation between sittings, I just kept sitting. But during the last retreat, my mind found what it was looking for.
What about you spending your time making post after post about morality & reincarnation? What is your seriousness for liberation (aka enlightenment)? Or are you just a moral crusader, attached to the world?
And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions?
'There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There are spontaneously reborn beings....
This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions.
What is a moral crusader? I have long given up trying to change people. Everyone has her own karma.
On a scale of 1 to 10. 10 means going to Thailand to ordain. 1 means reading Buddhist books and coming to this forum. Please describe what you intend to do or are doing.
When I first found Buddhism, I did four ten day silent meditation retreats in a row and practised at least six hour a day of meditation in between. In my last two retreats, I sat so much, I could hardly walk. Whilst others were doing their walking meditation between sittings, I just kept sitting. But during the last retreat, my mind found what it was looking for.
What about you spending your time making post after post about morality & reincarnation? What is your seriousness for liberation (aka enlightenment)? Or are you just a moral crusader, attached to the world?
And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions?
'There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There are spontaneously reborn beings....
This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions.
Comments
_________________________
@ federica -- Is it perhaps because, in some measure, you concur with the notion that anyone could mark or measure the realms of practice? You know, the whole "stages" routine? Just noodling here, but which of us hasn't tried to contrast one "anguish" with another or compare one "love" with another? Which of us hasn't wanted to know that s/he isn't wasting time and longs for a gold star to prove it. Yo Adrian -- I'm a Buddhist and I have a gold star to prove it ... something like that.
It doesn't work, but that doesn't mean it's not a magnet in this practice.
I also tried to work out how long it would take me to reach the benchmark of 10,000 hours practice that is referred to in many studies of 'serious' meditators! Its going to be a while apparently until I qualify as a 'serious' meditator!
For an analogy, I will use the example of preparing for an important examination. As a student, I will gauge how disciplined I was in studying for the exam. You could say it is a very subjective measure.
But after putting in a certain number of hours of revision and having a good grasp of the materials, I feel satisfied & fairly confident going into the exam. I would use the same measure about my seriousness in buddhism. Again, I must emphasize, it is for self evaluation, not to live up to others' expectation or to judge other people.
But I suppose if you are a monk or practsing with a teacher, your teacher will evaluate your seriousness.
Basically, if human rebirth is extremely rare, I think I should be more serious. Here is a popular story about how rare human rebirth is.
The following analogy illustrates just how rare it is: Imagine that upon the surface of a vast ocean floats a yoke tossed continuously by wind and waves. Within that ocean swims a blind tortoise that surfaces for air once every hundred years. Of course, it is possible for the tortoise to emerge with its head [passing] through the yoke that bobs on the surface, but the chances that this will occur are extremely rare. Obtaining this precious human birth is just as rare as the tortoise surfacing for air one time in a hundred years with its head [passing] through the bobbing yoke. Surely this [surfacing] is possible, but it is so difficult and unlikely that it is next to impossible. Obtaining the precious human birth is likewise difficult.
I am lead to believe that my mahayana teacher agrees with your feeling. That is why lamas take retreats rather than spend as much time as possible with their students. They come out of the retreat better able to help.
because if 1 is reading books, coming on here, and trying our best to put his teachings into our daily life. and then 10 is ordaining as a monk then what 23456789??
I think you either practice buddhism in your daily life or you dont. You either become a monk or you dont.
ALOT of people on here will be ranked at 1. I doubt very much you are talking to monks from thailand.
*some people, bloody hell*
Not Difficult, Not Easy
Once, a long time ago, a Buddhist Master used to tell his monks that he knew of a family living nearby where Father, Mother, and Daughter were all enlightened after hearing the words of the Patriarch only once, so if the poor lay people could do it, then certainly the monks should know they can do it. One monk, tiring of hearing this and wondering if the Master was being fooled, found out the name of this family and went to see what they were like.
He first encountered the Father working in his orchard, and asked how difficult it was to be enlightened. "Oh, hard, hard, hard!" the Father replied. "It's like counting every peach on every tree in my orchard, every single day!"
He then encountered the Mother, who was busy preparing the daily meal for the family. He asked this woman how difficult she found it to be enlightened. "Oh, easy, easy, easy!" she replied. "Like putting your shoes on when you get up in the morning!"
The monk started to leave, pondering this, when he encounterd the daughter coming back from the stream with a bucket of water. He asked the girl if she agreed with her father, that enlightenment was difficult, or her mother, that enlightenment was easy.
"Not difficult, not easy," the girl replied. "On the tips of every blade of grass, the Patriarch's meaning!"
With that, the monk's eyes were opened to the true Dharma.
This story is not saying that the Father was wrong, or that the Mother was wrong, or even the Daughter. They all took their Buddhism seriously.
Besides, as I've said, my number 3 (being vague, unscripted and undefined) may be miles ahead of somebody else's number 3.
Or miles behind.
Who's to know?
And who's business is it but mine?
Does seriousness imply pretentiousness - obsessiveness - indulgence - or devotion?
Impermanence casts a silly shadow on rating how serious one might be - about anything!
If "great effort" equates to "serious" - then, okay there is validity in learning about Buddhism "seriously".
Multitudes don't get it in this life - even though the Dharma is splashed all over the place. How fortunate to have found the path - the punchline to the rude joke of reality. How seriously can we take absurdity? The Buddha's great compassion for all sentient beings intended only that they "awaken" to the truth of existence and realize the great peace of liberation from ignorance - not be some sort of fanatic to dogma or rules....
So I guess I'm a 10. I wanted to go to Dharmsala but I "waited" (
Where does wiping other people's butts (who are unable) as part of "right livelihood" place me?
I bow down in awe to nurses. My wife is a nurse as well, so please don't tell her! I think as right livelihood goes nursing is a 11/10.
An insomniac? ;-)
Mother Theresa is wonderful but does she know anything about Buddhism?
She and HHDL corresponded often.
I guess given my exposure and experience in Buddhism, I'm a 1 according to @jll. However, my desire to really live and follow the Dharma is totally serious. So according to ME, I'm a 10 *shrugs*
In metta,
Raven
What about you spending your time making post after post about morality & reincarnation? What is your seriousness for liberation (aka enlightenment)? Or are you just a moral crusader, attached to the world?