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How should Buddhists deal with lies?

kashikashi
edited April 2012 in General Banter
You catch someone in an outright lie, what did Buddha say to do? just forget about? forgive and forget? any one know of a sutta about this topic??

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm looking forward to this thread.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Well, firstly there is "right speech" to consider.

    After some searching I found this - The Buddha doesn't take too kindly to those who deliberately lie:

    Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone

    At that time Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Then the Blessed One, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to where Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Ven. Rahula saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, set out a seat & water for washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat set out and, having sat down, washed his feet. Ven. Rahula, bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side.

    Then the Blessed One, having left a little bit of water in the water dipper, said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see this little bit of left-over water remaining in the water dipper?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "That's how little of a contemplative there is in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie."

    Having tossed away the little bit of left-over water, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this little bit of left-over water is tossed away?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is tossed away just like that."

    Having turned the water dipper upside down, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this water dipper is turned upside down?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is turned upside down just like that."

    Having turned the water dipper right-side up, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how empty & hollow this water dipper is?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is empty & hollow just like that.

    "In the same way, Rahula, when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest.'

    Full Sutta here" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Maybe think why does this person think they need to tell the lie. And based on their needs and your own open non-violent communication or let it slide.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Thanks for this "teachable moment", kashi. :) And Doug.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    Maybe think why does this person think they need to tell the lie. And based on their needs and your own open non-violent communication or let it slide.
    Yeah, there is this aspect also. But as Kashi asked only what The Buddha would say or do, I went in that direction. I do, however, think your observation would lead us towards a more practical, in the moment approach. :thumbsup:
  • AMHAMH
    So as far as what we should do as a Buddhist, well the situations and people can be drastically different in so many cases. I can think about many I have dealt with lately, adult lies at work about their job, kids lies about general kid things, and my own temptations to not tell the truth at times.

    So compassion the same as we would have for any creature who does not have a lot of the contemplative in them, we should recognize them for who they are and their limitations (and don't loan money ya know).
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    @kashi It depends on why the person is lying. ... Moral rigidity.. a black and white view that isn't sensitive to context... wouldn't be helpful.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2012
    @kashi
    what i do is depending on the situation.

    Pretend i noticed nothing if that's what the situation require. (sometimes its just not the right time to talk about the underlining issues that caused the lie)

    If it is a friend, we can approach the situation by easing our way in perhaps.
    Nicely and gently, perhaps like
    Paul lie is: I don't have a car (but he does).
    Me: So, whats the story about the car? I thought i remember Richard telling me you had one...?

    And then go on from there, trying to be as calm and as accepting as possible.


    If we approach things calmly, we give a better opportunity for the person to open up and let out what he's been holding which caused him to lie.


    But that's the end of this, if the person cannot open up, there is no need to push since the person will probably just close even tighter.

    Just be kind and remain kind. If we do so (and avoid getting upset and start being aggressive), perhaps that person will come to us in the future when he is ready to open up.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I wonder though if intent isn't key here too. If Buddha was alive during the time of Hitler and he was faced with either lying in order to not give up the Jews or telling their location, I'm betting he would lie.

    From what I can gather, it is the decision that intends the least amount of harm that is the ethical one.

    Violence is wrong too but letting a thug rob an elderly lady of her purse is worse when you can do something to stop it.

    @Kashi:

    I think the nature of the lie would need to be addressed.
  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    I've had to tell the truth with lies...
  • zenffzenff Veteran

    After some searching I found this - The Buddha doesn't take too kindly to those who deliberately lie:

    Full Sutta here" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html
    I like to think that the image we get from the Buddha in the sutras is tainted by his over-enthusiastic disciples.
    An enlightened being can’t be such a pedantic moral wiseacre, I’m sure.
    :rolleyes:
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    Maybe think why does this person think they need to tell the lie. And based on their needs and your own open non-violent communication or let it slide.
    I like this response. Perhaps even extending compassion/loving-kindness to the individual who is lying - they must be suffering somehow if they feel they have to blatantly lie to others/you.
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