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I struggle with letting go of thoughts...

BoatSBoatS Explorer
edited August 2012 in Buddhism Basics
Ever since I've started meditating, I've become extremely aware of my thoughts, even during daily life. But the issue is that it seems I create even more suffering by recognizing the thoughts (negative, I don't want that, etc.) and despising them. I know that I am not supposed to attach to the thoughts and gently let them go, but I find that extremely difficult to do outside of a meditation scenario. Plus they never end, and they are nearly always negative. The constant bombardment of negativity overwhelms me, I am aware of many of these thoughts, and I get exhausted. I try my best to let them go, but when I do, I receive more in its place. I know this is the nature of the mind, but I can't find a good way to handle these emotions/thoughts.

I don't know if this is a typical struggle of an aspiring meditation student, but sometimes it seems like the awareness of thoughts can actually be detrimental to my ease and well-being. I want to see each thought without being attached to them, but I find it difficult. I want to love and accept myself the way I am, but I can't seem to. Is this part of the journey of exploring your inner self? Do I need more practice, and it will eventually get easier?

I could use guidance from anyone who has insight or has been in a similar situation.

Thank You,

BoatS
«1

Comments

  • Awrr I understand too well, but it's just a case of practice, practice, practice. There are things you can do that will help you to experience a more settled, positive, serene mind like fasting, eating a healthy diet with no stimulating foods (caffeine, refined sugars etc.), and lots of exercises. All of these will prime your mind for meditation and give you a boost, but ultimately it's just a matter of practice. But be patient! Results WILL show! :)
  • I agree with mindatrisk. At first, the level of mental chatter is overwhelming. But, after a while--and with practice--your brain gives in and the dust begins to settle. You'll get there, man.
  • You may want to try compassionate thoughts for others, don't let yourself get caught up in your own thoughts and delusions, sure work on loving and accepting yourself but also be mindfull of others, there is a lot of suffering out there. You could alway give a helping hand to a charity like an animal shelter or something. Remember your compassion for others needs to be sincere, from your heart.

    Also you may want to use your meditation technics in your everyday life, if you find your mind is working over time, take time out and give your breathing your focus, slowing down your breathing will slow down your thoughts.

    I Know It can be difficult at the start, try not to be too critical on yourself and don't rush to get to nowhere, right here right now is your past, present and future.

    Good luck with your journey, just practice and be patient :)

  • You're FAR from alone!

    Here's a video that may help -



    Goodluck wth it !
    RebeccaSBoatS
  • Don't forget that your thoughts are pretty random and out of your control right now. I struggle a lot with getting upset at myself for some of my thoughts. Then I realize that it's the same as getting upset for a kid for wetting itself. They didn't do that on purpose. So you just have to clean them up and keep walking and hope they wet themselves less and less as you go on.
    beasly
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Ever since I've started meditating, I've become extremely aware of my thoughts, even during daily life. But the issue is that it seems I create even more suffering by recognizing the thoughts (negative, I don't want that, etc.) and despising them. I know that I am not supposed to attach to the thoughts and gently let them go, but I find that extremely difficult to do outside of a meditation scenario.
    Becoming more aware of your mind can be quite uncomfortable. Sometimes these thoughts are a bit like young children wanting attention - you need to acknowledge them and then they'll go away. Or think of them like waves which pass, clouds in the sky.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    One meditative practise is to just bypass the analysis and judgements of thoughts by simply deliberately refocusing one's priority on the job at hand. The former habits of endlessly indulged mental ruminations are slowly replaced by a new habit of immediately returning to whatever needs doing in this nano second. You develop the habit of waking up to and immediately re-attending to whatever your present task is whenever you find your brain slipping into auto-pilot.

    Such a practise is often likened to having a room that needs to be swept.

    You can dream about it, analyze the various ways it can be done, remain inert in all sorts of mental indulgences or you can just sweep.

    The practise described above just allows the activity of sweeping, unhindered by our former conditioned mental hindrances.
  • I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and was a Buddhist, but you might find the following excerpt on watchfulness and prayer written by one of our beloved saints, St John Cassian, who lived in the 4th century and who was taught by the dessert fathers helpful. It specifically relates to preparation. Replace the word prayer with meditation if you prefer.

    “For whatsoever before the hour of prayer our soul has conceived, needs must come up before us when we pray, as memory suggests it. Wherefore we ought before the time of prayer to prepare ourselves to be such as we should wish to be found to be when at our prayers. For the mind at prayer is as it was made to be before the time of prayer. When we dispose ourselves to prayer the image of the same actions, words, and feelings flit before our eyes, and reproducing what has gone before will make rise in us either anger or depression, or will cause us to go over again past desires or business...”

    My patron saint, St Silouan the Athonite, advised his disciples that when thoughts arise don't argue with them.

    As an aside, you also might find it interesting to know that two of the oldest active monasteries in the world are Christian. The Monastery of St Anthony founded in the 3rd century, and St Catherine's Monastery founded in the 6th century.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    I have stayed at a Zen Buddhist Monastery in Northern California where Eastern Orthodox Monks have come for meditation instruction.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Silouan said:


    ...dessert fathers...

    :clap:
  • Sorry for the error. I'm all thumbs. ;-)
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Don't apologise - it made my day... :D
  • Glad to be of service :-)
  • Maybe it could work though. Devine nectar is sweet. :-)
    Zero
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer

    You're FAR from alone!

    Here's a video that may help -



    Goodluck wth it !

    Geoff-Allen,

    Thank you for the video Geoff-Allen, very insightful.
    how said:

    One meditative practise is to just bypass the analysis and judgements of thoughts by simply deliberately refocusing one's priority on the job at hand. The former habits of endlessly indulged mental ruminations are slowly replaced by a new habit of immediately returning to whatever needs doing in this nano second. You develop the habit of waking up to and immediately re-attending to whatever your present task is whenever you find your brain slipping into auto-pilot.

    Such a practise is often likened to having a room that needs to be swept.

    You can dream about it, analyze the various ways it can be done, remain inert in all sorts of mental indulgences or you can just sweep.

    The practise described above just allows the activity of sweeping, unhindered by our former conditioned mental hindrances.

    how,


    I do like the idea of being mindful of your movements and actions rather than concentrating on your thoughts. I attempt this a lot when I'm doing physical work, and it is very calming. However, there are a lot of times which it is difficult to only focus on your actions. For example, if I'm just walking to a certain location, I find it hard to always remain concentrated on each footstep when my mind is far more active and relentless in action. I will try to focus more on what I do, but I would also like to produce understanding and compassion for my own mind so that I will not have struggle with thoughts when they do occur (which they always will).
    Silouan said:

    I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and was a Buddhist, but you might find the following excerpt on watchfulness and prayer written by one of our beloved saints, St John Cassian, who lived in the 4th century and who was taught by the dessert fathers helpful. It specifically relates to preparation. Replace the word prayer with meditation if you prefer.

    “For whatsoever before the hour of prayer our soul has conceived, needs must come up before us when we pray, as memory suggests it. Wherefore we ought before the time of prayer to prepare ourselves to be such as we should wish to be found to be when at our prayers. For the mind at prayer is as it was made to be before the time of prayer. When we dispose ourselves to prayer the image of the same actions, words, and feelings flit before our eyes, and reproducing what has gone before will make rise in us either anger or depression, or will cause us to go over again past desires or business...”

    My patron saint, St Silouan the Athonite, advised his disciples that when thoughts arise don't argue with them.

    As an aside, you also might find it interesting to know that two of the oldest active monasteries in the world are Christian. The Monastery of St Anthony founded in the 3rd century, and St Catherine's Monastery founded in the 6th century.

    Silouan,

    I am very interested in why you were once a Buddhist, and decided that Christianity was more fitting - if you care to share. Also, I do enjoy this quote, but I'm curious if you could help me understand it more thoroughly. You say that it is a preparation to meditation/prayer, but I am unsure what that means.

    For example, "Wherefore we ought before the time of prayer to prepare ourselves to be such as we should wish to be found to be when at our prayers." Could you assist in explaining the meaning of this?

    What I get from the quote is that you should attempt to feel like you do during prayer, before you pray. Also, I don't fully understand, "For the mind at prayer is as it was made to be before the time of prayer."

    I find this quote interesting, however, I would like to fully understand its meaning.
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    Also, another question related to thoughts and their origin. Is it possible to alter these thoughts that initially come up over time? My thoughts tend to be negative in nature, and I am wondering whether through prayer/metta/etc. it is possible to alter these thoughts to be more positive. This would eliminate some of the struggle of the bombardment of negativity that I face on a day-to-day basis.
  • @ BoatS

    Hi, I don't mind explaining my conversion in a different posting, because I would like to address some of the other questions first.

    As you know, we don't come into a full understanding as there is no limit to our spiritual journey. We struggle, but we do make progress. When we fall we get back up and continue on the way.

    For example, "Wherefore we ought before the time of prayer to prepare ourselves to be such as we should wish to be found to be when at our prayers." Could you assist in explaining the meaning of this?

    These are very profound questions, and it is difficult for me translate if you will between Buddhism and Orthodoxy. I will lose some of the effectiveness of my own tradition, but hopefully I can pass on what is needed.

    This is about our interior disposition, and what we do with it is relative to where we are at with that.

    I’m a layperson; I have a job, family, very busy life, and surrounded by and engage in many negative activities which is the same for most others. If we are engaged in negative activities throughout the day we can be sure they will influence our prayer or mediation.

    So to start with since you are struggling with negative thoughts try to prepare by reading some of your Buddhist scripture and contemplate the virtuous things you have read. This is a form of basic but sound meditation. Some may tell you otherwise, but it is a practice too.

    One must lay the ground for enlightenment first, which is to refrain from negative activities and the practice of the virtues. There is no way around this. The foundation must be built.

    I know that it is difficult when the more lofty and technical aspects of mediation are thrown at you, and you are tempted to abandon the fundamentals, but if you don’t do that than I am certain you can make steady progress.

    I did recently post related to negative thoughts here; newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/297886#Comment_297886


    The origin of thoughts is a huge and interesting topic. I will put something together on it for you.

    I hope this helps.
    BoatS
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012
    @BoatS
    .........................................................................................................................................
    ! Having some difficulty isolating your quote.
    I do like the idea of being mindful of your movements and actions rather than concentrating on your thoughts. I attempt this a lot when I'm doing physical work, and it is very calming. However, there are a lot of times which it is difficult to only focus on your actions. For example, if I'm just walking to a certain location, I find it hard to always remain concentrated on each footstep when my mind is far more active and relentless in action. I will try to focus more on what I do, but I would also like to produce understanding and compassion for my own mind so that I will not have struggle with thoughts when they do occur (which they always will).
    .
    ....................................................................................................................................


    Moving a thought dominance towards an activity dominance is a good way to experience how conditionable, and thereby changeable we can be.
    I think the brain should be allowed to rattle on in the background. I wasn't suggesting thought suppression, only placing a greater priority on opening up to the larger process of "you".
    Instead of just living primarily in your thoughts, one deliberately includes each moments experience of your form, sensations, activity and consciousness, as well. The only problem with mental identity is how myopic it can be. Placing a priority on assessing ones identity in the world through thoughts is just a state of conditioning. It's a habit that can be changed through the diligent practise of opening up to all the other ways of experiencing life that ones former thought priority was squashing.

    Some see the mind as just a library reference construct that the ego continually tries to push into a God role to fulfil it's own agenda. Compassion and understanding for you own mind could just be not trying to task it with responsibilities beyond its original design or purpose.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @BoatS
    there are a lot of times which it is difficult to only focus on your actions. For example, if I'm just walking to a certain location, I find it hard to always remain concentrated on each footstep when my mind is far more active and relentless in action. I will try to focus more on what I do, but I would also like to produce understanding and compassion for my own mind so that I will not have struggle with thoughts when they do occur (which they always will).


    Moving a thought dominence to an activity dominence is a good way to experience how conditionable, and thereby changeable we can be.
    I think the brain should be allowed to rattle on in the background. I wasn't suggesting thought suppression, only placing a greater priority on opening up to the larger process of "you". Instead of just living primarily in your thoughts, one diliberetly also includes each moments experience of your form, sensations, activity and consciousness. The main problem with mental identity is how myopic it can be. Placing a priority on assessing ones identity in the world through thoughts is just a state of conditioning. It's a habit that can be changed through the dillegent practise of opening up to all the other ways of experiencing life that ones former thought priority was sqaushing.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited August 2012
    It's not just about letting go of thoughts, it's also about replacing certain thoughts with others. In fact the Buddha advised us to try the replacing of thoughts first before trying to let them go by themselves.

    Do you practice metta meditation? This is a practice that uses thoughts in a kind way. It's about embracing yourself, loving yourself, don't condemn yourself. This way you replace negative thoughts by positive thoughts. So if you don't practice metta meditation, go look it up. And if you do practice it, I would advise to do it more frequently. Even consider making it your main practice if you really struggle with a bad self image or negativity. There is nothing wrong with leaving the breath practice and exchange it for this. In fact, it can be a very wise thing to do, to do what your mind needs. (though you could also combine the two)

    In the beginning it may seem like metta practice doesn't do much, but slowly it will grow and grow and it can totally change you. It'll also grow into something you can use outside of a sitting session.

    If you can't find an accurate or helpful description by using google, please let me know and I'll look something up for you.

    I really hope you can pick it up.

    With metta,
    Sabre


    edit: I now read a bit further and saw this:
    BoatS said:

    Also, another question related to thoughts and their origin. Is it possible to alter these thoughts that initially come up over time? My thoughts tend to be negative in nature, and I am wondering whether through prayer/metta/etc. it is possible to alter these thoughts to be more positive. This would eliminate some of the struggle of the bombardment of negativity that I face on a day-to-day basis.

    Exactly, you already found my advise by yourself. You can use these practices. Especially metta for it's the most effective way to remove negativity. Remember that metta is not about pushing away certain thoughts, but it is about embracing them. By embracing yourself and your thoughts, negativity will disappear. Just like when a country at war would make peace with an enemy, it isn´t an enemy anymore. But if they would push the enemy away, maybe they´ll be gone for a while, but they will come back even stronger.

    So metta is about embracing. It can be quite a hard thing to do actually and it´s very normal to burst out into crying but that´s ok too.

    I really really wish you can pick it up. Try it daily. Hope it changes you as much as it changed me, or even more.

    With metta again,
    Sabre
    BoatS
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    Sabre said:

    It's not just about letting go of thoughts, it's also about replacing certain thoughts with others. In fact the Buddha advised us to try the replacing of thoughts first before trying to let them go by themselves.

    Do you practice metta meditation? This is a practice that uses thoughts in a kind way. It's about embracing yourself, loving yourself, don't condemn yourself. This way you replace negative thoughts by positive thoughts. So if you don't practice metta meditation, go look it up. And if you do practice it, I would advise to do it more frequently. Even consider making it your main practice if you really struggle with a bad self image or negativity. There is nothing wrong with leaving the breath practice and exchange it for this. In fact, it can be a very wise thing to do, to do what your mind needs. (though you could also combine the two)

    In the beginning it may seem like metta practice doesn't do much, but slowly it will grow and grow and it can totally change you. It'll also grow into something you can use outside of a sitting session.

    If you can't find an accurate or helpful description by using google, please let me know and I'll look something up for you.

    I really hope you can pick it up.

    With metta,
    Sabre


    edit: I now read a bit further and saw this:

    BoatS said:

    Also, another question related to thoughts and their origin. Is it possible to alter these thoughts that initially come up over time? My thoughts tend to be negative in nature, and I am wondering whether through prayer/metta/etc. it is possible to alter these thoughts to be more positive. This would eliminate some of the struggle of the bombardment of negativity that I face on a day-to-day basis.

    Exactly, you already found my advise by yourself. You can use these practices. Especially metta for it's the most effective way to remove negativity. Remember that metta is not about pushing away certain thoughts, but it is about embracing them. By embracing yourself and your thoughts, negativity will disappear. Just like when a country at war would make peace with an enemy, it isn´t an enemy anymore. But if they would push the enemy away, maybe they´ll be gone for a while, but they will come back even stronger.

    So metta is about embracing. It can be quite a hard thing to do actually and it´s very normal to burst out into crying but that´s ok too.

    I really really wish you can pick it up. Try it daily. Hope it changes you as much as it changed me, or even more.

    With metta again,
    Sabre
    I've never been consistent with metta meditation, but I feel that I must at least give it an honest try for a long period of time. If it could even help minimize my negativity slightly, it would be wonderful. I would like to begin practicing, but have seen so many types of metta that I don't know which form is best for beginners. Is there an optimal way to start? Could you assist me with links perhaps, or what you have attempted to do?

    Thank you,

    BoatS
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    Silouan said:

    @ BoatS

    Hi, I don't mind explaining my conversion in a different posting, because I would like to address some of the other questions first.

    As you know, we don't come into a full understanding as there is no limit to our spiritual journey. We struggle, but we do make progress. When we fall we get back up and continue on the way.

    For example, "Wherefore we ought before the time of prayer to prepare ourselves to be such as we should wish to be found to be when at our prayers." Could you assist in explaining the meaning of this?

    These are very profound questions, and it is difficult for me translate if you will between Buddhism and Orthodoxy. I will lose some of the effectiveness of my own tradition, but hopefully I can pass on what is needed.

    This is about our interior disposition, and what we do with it is relative to where we are at with that.

    I’m a layperson; I have a job, family, very busy life, and surrounded by and engage in many negative activities which is the same for most others. If we are engaged in negative activities throughout the day we can be sure they will influence our prayer or mediation.

    So to start with since you are struggling with negative thoughts try to prepare by reading some of your Buddhist scripture and contemplate the virtuous things you have read. This is a form of basic but sound meditation. Some may tell you otherwise, but it is a practice too.

    One must lay the ground for enlightenment first, which is to refrain from negative activities and the practice of the virtues. There is no way around this. The foundation must be built.

    I know that it is difficult when the more lofty and technical aspects of mediation are thrown at you, and you are tempted to abandon the fundamentals, but if you don’t do that than I am certain you can make steady progress.

    I did recently post related to negative thoughts here; newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/297886#Comment_297886


    The origin of thoughts is a huge and interesting topic. I will put something together on it for you.

    I hope this helps.

    Thank you for the elaboration on the quote, it definitely helped. I would enjoy hearing more about your conversion if you are interested in sharing, and also I hearing about the origin of thoughts would be wonderful. That idea has always fascinated me, and I would be intrigued to find out further perspectives on the matter.

    Thank you,

    BoatS
  • @ BoatS

    I'm glad you found it helpful.

    I was born into a secular home, sand since a child I have suffered from social anxiety disorder. My father had a stroke, and after an intense period of suffering he passed away. I then had a burning desire to find out why he had to suffer so much. I did not believe any form of Christianity that I was aware of in America at the cusp of the 90's would provide me an answer. Three days later I declared I was a Buddhist though I did not know anything about it. However, my sister gifted me a book three weeks later at Christmas called “The Three Pillars of Zen” and so started my Buddhist journey.

    Up until 2007 a year prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy I had been practicing and studying Tibetan Buddhism. The very interesting thing was several years before that I had seen a movie called the Little Buddha, and that was my first introduction to that form of Buddhism. It is basically about the story of a Lama who passes away, and there is a search to find his re-birth. The person who played the brief vision part of the Lama who passed a way turned out to be the spiritual director of the center where I would eventually attend teachings. Though it took me awhile to make the connection.

    My wife was a Roman Catholic, and we lived a pretty peaceful existence, but around that time she begin church hopping to various Protestant churches, and our marriage began to turn for the worse at this point. Not only that, but I was hitting a stumbling block in my practice, and began to search other aspects of Buddhism to help. I was enslaved to various habits, and I began to contemplate that if I were to die today what was my future to be. I started to research Pure Land aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, but it wasn't clicking.

    My marriage was on the verge of divorce, and I was deeply concerned for my wife. Some of the ideas and practices she was bringing home were very strange, and I thought that there has to be some form of Christianity that is authentic for her. Christ suffered so much, and I thought it couldn't be just for all that I was seeing.

    It was that time my heart was touched. I knew intuitively who it was, but in tears I asked that He leave me be, and that I was a Buddhist, and there is no place I could follow him. That was that, and I started searching for a church for my wife.

    I happened to see on a PBS show a story about a Christian monk who was living in cave in the desert in Egypt. He seemed very authentic to me so I now knew for certain there was something more to Christianity than what I had seen growing up in the 80's.

    Being very familiar and loving the practice of chanting I discovered some Orthodox chanting, and while driving the telephone polls on the sides of the road would remind me of crosses. I had another visitation in my heart where it was made known to me that If I choose to follow I will be crucified. It wasn't words or anything like that. It was intuition though I didn't understand what it meant and I was baffled.

    I discovered more about Orthodoxy, and my wife and I began to look together. We had attended a local parish once, and three months later they held a class on Church history that we went back for. My youngest daughter was sick of the whole turmoil the family went through and was fed up and not going to attend stating “I'm never going to be Orthodox” even though we never asked her to be, but at the last moment changed her mind. After the class she boldly stated “That's it! I'm Orthodox”. We went through classes and was received into the Church in 2010. Our oldest daughter, her husband, and my granddaughter were received the following year. This year my 82 mother-in-law who is from Costa Rica and had been a Roman Catholic all her life was received.

    I beginning to understand more what was meant by if I choose to follow I would be crucified. I'm being healed of my anxiety, but it is a journey.

    Whew! Hope it wasn't too long winded or hokey sounding, but there you have it. :)

    If you are interested this is a link to an excellent four part lecture series called Christ the Eternal Tao. It was given by an Eastern Orthodox Christian monk, and it centered around a book he wrote of the same title. It provides excellent insight to the Eastern Orthodox world view, thoughts, and watchfulness and prayer.

    http://ancientfaith.com/specials/christ_the_eternal_tao
  • @BoatS
    Sorry. The link was'nt right. Please try this one instead. ancientfaith.com/specials/christ_the_eternal_tao
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    BoatS said:


    I've never been consistent with metta meditation, but I feel that I must at least give it an honest try for a long period of time. If it could even help minimize my negativity slightly, it would be wonderful. I would like to begin practicing, but have seen so many types of metta that I don't know which form is best for beginners. Is there an optimal way to start? Could you assist me with links perhaps, or what you have attempted to do?

    Thank you,

    BoatS

    There seem to be many types, but that's because metta is about arousing and growing a feeling of kindness, acceptance and wishing well. Naturally there are different methods to arouse this feeling. For some visualisation works, for others repeating certain phrases works. But the important thing is the feeling, this is universal and of one type. Also it can help to develop compassion together with metta, the two are interrelated and so certain teachers don't make a clear distinction, which I think is ok.

    Perhaps these can help.
    Short introduction:


    Talk followed by guided metta meditation:


    With metta,
    Reflection
    BoatS
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    Silouan said:

    @ BoatS

    I'm glad you found it helpful.

    I was born into a secular home, sand since a child I have suffered from social anxiety disorder. My father had a stroke, and after an intense period of suffering he passed away. I then had a burning desire to find out why he had to suffer so much. I did not believe any form of Christianity that I was aware of in America at the cusp of the 90's would provide me an answer. Three days later I declared I was a Buddhist though I did not know anything about it. However, my sister gifted me a book three weeks later at Christmas called “The Three Pillars of Zen” and so started my Buddhist journey.

    Up until 2007 a year prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy I had been practicing and studying Tibetan Buddhism. The very interesting thing was several years before that I had seen a movie called the Little Buddha, and that was my first introduction to that form of Buddhism. It is basically about the story of a Lama who passes away, and there is a search to find his re-birth. The person who played the brief vision part of the Lama who passed a way turned out to be the spiritual director of the center where I would eventually attend teachings. Though it took me awhile to make the connection.

    My wife was a Roman Catholic, and we lived a pretty peaceful existence, but around that time she begin church hopping to various Protestant churches, and our marriage began to turn for the worse at this point. Not only that, but I was hitting a stumbling block in my practice, and began to search other aspects of Buddhism to help. I was enslaved to various habits, and I began to contemplate that if I were to die today what was my future to be. I started to research Pure Land aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, but it wasn't clicking.

    My marriage was on the verge of divorce, and I was deeply concerned for my wife. Some of the ideas and practices she was bringing home were very strange, and I thought that there has to be some form of Christianity that is authentic for her. Christ suffered so much, and I thought it couldn't be just for all that I was seeing.

    It was that time my heart was touched. I knew intuitively who it was, but in tears I asked that He leave me be, and that I was a Buddhist, and there is no place I could follow him. That was that, and I started searching for a church for my wife.

    I happened to see on a PBS show a story about a Christian monk who was living in cave in the desert in Egypt. He seemed very authentic to me so I now knew for certain there was something more to Christianity than what I had seen growing up in the 80's.

    Being very familiar and loving the practice of chanting I discovered some Orthodox chanting, and while driving the telephone polls on the sides of the road would remind me of crosses. I had another visitation in my heart where it was made known to me that If I choose to follow I will be crucified. It wasn't words or anything like that. It was intuition though I didn't understand what it meant and I was baffled.

    I discovered more about Orthodoxy, and my wife and I began to look together. We had attended a local parish once, and three months later they held a class on Church history that we went back for. My youngest daughter was sick of the whole turmoil the family went through and was fed up and not going to attend stating “I'm never going to be Orthodox” even though we never asked her to be, but at the last moment changed her mind. After the class she boldly stated “That's it! I'm Orthodox”. We went through classes and was received into the Church in 2010. Our oldest daughter, her husband, and my granddaughter were received the following year. This year my 82 mother-in-law who is from Costa Rica and had been a Roman Catholic all her life was received.

    I beginning to understand more what was meant by if I choose to follow I would be crucified. I'm being healed of my anxiety, but it is a journey.

    Whew! Hope it wasn't too long winded or hokey sounding, but there you have it. :)

    If you are interested this is a link to an excellent four part lecture series called Christ the Eternal Tao. It was given by an Eastern Orthodox Christian monk, and it centered around a book he wrote of the same title. It provides excellent insight to the Eastern Orthodox world view, thoughts, and watchfulness and prayer.

    http://ancientfaith.com/specials/christ_the_eternal_tao

    Thank you for taking the time to explain to me your conversion, I find it fascinating and have read it over several times. I always enjoy hearing about the progression of people's spiritual journeys, and yours is no exception. I will look into the audio episodes when I am able to.
    Sabre said:

    BoatS said:


    I've never been consistent with metta meditation, but I feel that I must at least give it an honest try for a long period of time. If it could even help minimize my negativity slightly, it would be wonderful. I would like to begin practicing, but have seen so many types of metta that I don't know which form is best for beginners. Is there an optimal way to start? Could you assist me with links perhaps, or what you have attempted to do?

    Thank you,

    BoatS

    There seem to be many types, but that's because metta is about arousing and growing a feeling of kindness, acceptance and wishing well. Naturally there are different methods to arouse this feeling. For some visualisation works, for others repeating certain phrases works. But the important thing is the feeling, this is universal and of one type. Also it can help to develop compassion together with metta, the two are interrelated and so certain teachers don't make a clear distinction, which I think is ok.

    Perhaps these can help.
    Short introduction:


    Talk followed by guided metta meditation:


    With metta,
    Reflection
    Thank you for the the Youtube videos, I will start to continuously follow metta practices and see how they affect me.

    Again, thanks to everyone,

    BoatS
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    BoatS said:



    Thank you for the the Youtube videos, I will start to continuously follow metta practices and see how they affect me.

    Again, thanks to everyone,

    BoatS

    Glad to be of help. Again, against negativity metta is the best practice to do. Hope you can get it to work.
  • @BoatS

    Hi BoatS

    Your welcome, and when you have time might you tell me your conversion story. I'm interested too :)

    Thanks
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    Silouan said:

    @BoatS

    Hi BoatS

    Your welcome, and when you have time might you tell me your conversion story. I'm interested too :)

    Thanks

    Well, I was born into a family that did not encourage religion at all. As a family, we never attended church or really discussed religion. My mother is religious, but mostly kept it to herself. Throughout the majority of my early years (12-18) I felt that there was something out there, perhaps the "God" that all religions speak of and would pray on my own time. However, I never read much of the Bible because there were certain aspects of it that I just couldn't get myself to believe. I had my own opinion of what I felt (inside) that God was, and what his actions would be. I felt/feel that God does truly want good for everyone, therefore having to be baptized to be "saved" did not sit well for me.

    So naturally, I created my own opinion of what God is and stands for based on my intuition and how I felt. I was this way for a long period of time, and found myself praying nearly every night seeking guidance in life. Eventually, I moved into college when I was 18. Here, I encountered several experiences that began to modify how I view the world. For one, I was in a relationship with a girl that I considered very important to me, and ended up getting devastated after we broke up. For months I was completely off and felt that I was unlovable and ended up creating so much self-hatred that I was overwhelmed. I felt that there must have been a reason that she fell out of love with me and ended up saying the things she did. I ended up analyzing myself and all of my actions and hated the person I was. I feel/felt that the way I am is not good enough and that I can always improve myself. This produced the trail of self-improvement spirituality conflict that I have entered into over the past 5+ years. I still struggle with self-love to this day to be honest.

    I eventually got to such a deep point of depression that I knew I had to do something. I went through medications, therapy, etc. all in attempts to feel "whole" like I once did, and love the person I was. I would have days were I felt okay about myself, and then others were I despised my actions and characters. My mind was relentlessly criticizing everything I do to the point were I couldn't deal with it. I had to find something that could bring relief to me, even if it was brief.

    After a lot of research and inner seeking, I finally came upon meditation. It had promises of releasing yourself from your worries, ideals, and suffering. This sounded like a miracle to me, especially since it did not involve medication to assist me. So thus began my exploration of myself through meditation. It was something that I began to rely on to get by; for moments in my life I was free from all the worry that I produced.

    After a while, I began to look further into concepts of meditation, which led me to Buddhism. I read the Four Noble Truths, the Eight Precepts, and other material; all of which seemed very logical and appealed to me. Rather than placing some mystical, undefined power on my life, I could actually comprehend why my life, thoughts, and actions were as they were. So thus I began to follow many Buddhist concepts, meditation, ideology, and loving-kindness.

    I don't follow all of scripture necessarily word for word, but use the idea of Buddhism as a stepping to stone to explore more about myself and where I want to be. To be honest, Buddhism/meditation has been both a blessing and curse for me. It taught me that I am able to let go of thoughts, but also has forced me into questioning so many other factors that I never considered before (who do I want to be if I can truly choose my actions, what am I, etc.). All of these ideas have caused me even more confusion in life, but once I started, I don't think I could ever go back to not being aware and letting life just "pass me by." If you have seen The Matrix, it feels a lot like that. I have been opened to a new way of viewing life, and now I'm on journey that I'll have to explore.

    Can I honestly say I'm more satisfied or happy now, than I was before? Perhaps I'm a bit less worried in general and have more self control, but I'm also more confused than ever about "who" I am and how I should be now that I'm always aware of my actions and words. I still struggle with my self-perception and how people view me more than ever, but now I am aware of it (not sure if that has really helped, but I try). What really led me on this path was just seeking happiness and peace with myself and who I am. I really just want to love and accept myself and others, exactly as we are. I know that when I don't accept myself, I also find it difficult to accept some people - and again, I'm aware of that and I don't like having to feel animosity towards anyone since it is not fair.

    I want to feel whole, peaceful, happy, and just love life and the experiences. I want to feel that what I do is correct. I don't want to worry anymore about "who" I am and just be able live. I know there will be portions of life that are less than optimal and will include suffering, but I want to live those as well. I'm not sure that I am any closer to that goal, but Buddhism has opened my mind to many ideas that I hope can draw me closer well being. It's definitely been a stepping stone, and I'm hoping that I am getting closer to accepting myself and everything in life. The jury is out on that conclusion now :)

    Note: Also, I figured I'd write a quick bit on my belief of God in case you are curious. I've had several parts in my life where I have "felt" God's presence in some terrible situations. A sense of calm and serenity has come over me, unlike anything I am able to express. I asked God to assist me, and to the best of my knowledge and feelings, he did. However, I do not know how to get closer to him since I can't get myself to read the Bible. There is just too much that I don't agree with, and thus it is difficult to pick what I like and disregard the rest. That seems contradicting to me.

    Anyways, that is my spiritual life journey. Sorry on the length, I just couldn't encompass everything in a shorter post.

    BoatS
    RebeccaS
  • BoatS: From the OP

    Attachment to our thoughts means attachment to ones we like to indulge in. But attachment also includes trying to suppress painful thoughts, or thoughts in general because we believe that Buddhism teaches thought suppression in which we come to "no mind" (it doesn't). The real goal is to converge (samâdhi) with the very substance of our thoughts, painful or otherwise. That's a whole different ball game. When a mendicant converges with the very substance of thought the bliss is overwhelming (bliss is not a feeling, btw). Short of this, it's life as usual in Samsara-ville. :-/
  • @BoatS

    Thank you for sharing your story. It seems we have many things in common.

    That fact remains that our experiences are personal, and we long to fulfill our person-hood and it is not an abstract idea, but experienced in the heart. My relationship with my neighbor defines my relationship with God. Self emptying not emptiness if that makes sense. If we examine closely pride causes suffering not God. When we come into closer union with Him all the negative baggage falls away, and what may seem like suffering to others no longer grips you.

    He is peace, love, joy, and eternal life, and there is not one human being who does not thirst for that even though they may reject it. What is hell really, but the rejection of Gods love. We all have our crosses to bear, but it is through them we are glorified and our person truly realized. It is the Likeness of God which can't be contained.

    What you experienced was a foretaste of the kingdom of heaven, because you haven't shut the door or rejected Him completely, but you have the freedom to do that.

    I too had difficulty with the bible, genesis, resurrection, etc... but have moved beyond by experience and not by suppressing the things I didn't agree with previously. Has anything good come out of Nazareth. Come and see.

    I'm grateful for having experienced Buddhism, and I don't say this in a negative way. I don't think I would have become an Orthodox Christian otherwise, and I believe it to be providential.

    Please don't think that I'm forcing my faith on you. Only you know where your heart lies.:)

    Forgive me.
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    @BoatS

    Thank you for sharing your story. It seems we have many things in common.

    That fact remains that our experiences are personal, and we long to fulfill our person-hood and it is not an abstract idea, but experienced in the heart. My relationship with my neighbor defines my relationship with God. Self emptying not emptiness if that makes sense. If we examine closely pride causes suffering not God. When we come into closer union with Him all the negative baggage falls away, and what may seem like suffering to others no longer grips you.

    He is peace, love, joy, and eternal life, and there is not one human being who does not thirst for that even though they may reject it. What is hell really, but the rejection of Gods love. We all have our crosses to bear, but it is through them we are glorified and our person truly realized. It is the Likeness of God which can't be contained.

    What you experienced was a foretaste of the kingdom of heaven, because you haven't shut the door or rejected Him completely, but you have the freedom to do that.

    I too had difficulty with the bible, genesis, resurrection, etc... but have moved beyond by experience and not by suppressing the things I didn't agree with previously. Has anything good come out of Nazareth. Come and see.

    I'm grateful for having experienced Buddhism, and I don't say this in a negative way. I don't think I would have become an Orthodox Christian otherwise, and I believe it to be providential.

    Please don't think that I'm forcing my faith on you. Only you know where your heart lies.:)

    Forgive me.
    It does seem we have a lot in common. I am very curious regarding your opinion of God, as it does appear similar to my own. How do you keep close to God, or feel his love if not through the Bible? For me, all experiences are through my own prayer and my intuition.

    What you say is not any form of conversion or imposing faith, as I am interested in what you have to say.
  • Songhill said:

    BoatS: From the OP

    Attachment to our thoughts means attachment to ones we like to indulge in. But attachment also includes trying to suppress painful thoughts, or thoughts in general because we believe that Buddhism teaches thought suppression in which we come to "no mind" (it doesn't). The real goal is to converge (samâdhi) with the very substance of our thoughts, painful or otherwise. That's a whole different ball game. When a mendicant converges with the very substance of thought the bliss is overwhelming (bliss is not a feeling, btw). Short of this, it's life as usual in Samsara-ville. :-/

    What do you mean by converge?
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    Accept the thoughts, and just let them go.
  • Don't argue with them, and they will go.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Accept the thoughts, and just let them go.
    The letting go bit is easier said than done sometimes - can you give any advice on how to go about this?
  • @BoatS

    Hi BoatS

    Rather than an opinion it is faith expressed in a way of life. Jesus said “I am the Way and the Life”. If Pontius Pilot would have asked “Who is Truth rather than what is truth” he would have been given that answer. Truth is not just an abstract idea, sought and known by the mind, but something personal, even a person, sought and loved by the heart.

    Fr. Seraphim Rose, and American monk and priest, who reposed in early 1980 describes the person as follows:

    “The truth of a person is always more than the person himself knows and always more than anyone else knows. Created in the image of God, human beings have an inherent transcendence. The soul is a mystery.”

    Christ is the head and the Church is the body. The body contains many parts or persons, and sometimes there are differences in understanding and conflicts for sure, but we are all called to acquire the mind of the Church. It is not a utopia, but a hospital for the soul. The fruits of the acquiring the mind of the Church is seen in the lives of her saints, both male and female. There is not one period where saints are revealed to the Church, but continually. How they lived there life is the most import aspect of their recognized saint hood. They had varied circumstances and problems just like us so it is possible for us too.

    A monk once wrote that “You know you are on the path to union with God when you have a spiritual father”. Your spiritual father guides you in the way to union with God. I have been extremely blessed with a very caring and loving spiritual father in my life. He has been very patient and kind, but also firm. We need firmness too on our journey.

    It is through participating in the life and mysteries of the Church where we come closer to God. This is why Church has stood fast and held on to her traditions, and refuted many attempts to change her theology and practice throughout her history both from within and without.

    We do fall from that closeness from time to time, but through repentance we return to the Way. Repentance is not juridical, but holistic. It is best understood as the change ones heart or interior disposition.

    The holy mystery of Baptism is very significant. It is at this point where the grace of the Holy Spirit or Illumination of God no longer is just externalized, but is now internalized and works from the inside out. The mystery is not just symbolic, and it does not guarantee salvation , but it sets us on the Way.

    I do read scripture, the lives of the saints and their teachings, as well as seeking guidance from my spiritual father. It is important to know that in order to understand scripture one has to participate in the holy mysteries of the Church.

    As you begin to acquire the mind of the Church you can see beyond just the literal rendering of the words and texts. I can read a passage today, and my understanding is deeper than say perhaps a year ago. If I have an issue with a passage or having difficulty I seek guidance from my spiritual father, and the teachings of the holy fathers and mothers.

    Have a spiritual father and live the life. That’s basically how I would sum it up


    Forgive me,

    Silouan
  • SonghillSonghill Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Music:
    What do you mean by converge?
    To come together. One realizes the absolute substance from which phenomena are composed. This includes our vexing thoughts, emotions, etc.

    This might be helpful:

    "Just so, Mahamati, what has been realised by myself and other Tathagatas is this reality, the eternally-abiding reality (sthitita), the self-regulating reality (niyamata), the suchness of things (tathata), the realness of things (bhutata), the truth itself (satyata)" (Lankavatara Sutra, trans. D.T. Suzuki).

    Ordinary followers are only taught thought suppression which, incidentally, doesn't work. About all they can manage to do is to sit on a zafu and face their thoughts. Much more is required to end suffering. It ain't easy. :(
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    edited August 2012

    Accept the thoughts, and just let them go.
    The letting go bit is easier said than done sometimes - can you give any advice on how to go about this?

    I will try to assist you in this question. I will refer directly to thoughts that carry strong emotions, and attempting to evolve these emotions.

    The first step is letting go of a thought is recognition. You must first realize the thought is present and what it is before you are able to look at it compassionately and understandingly. Greet your thought emotion, "Hello, anger, guilt, sadness, how are you? You are welcome to stay with me as long as you want." This may sound silly, but this creates an understanding and well-being towards the thought/feeling, which is essentially part of you during this moment. You would not want to discredit yourself, would you?

    The second step is to not push the thought/feeling away, but rather choose to be with the thought/feeling. Don't try to control it, just feel the emotion that is present in you. Look at it with compassionate eyes, as in you realize the disharmony in you, but you are choosing to accept it and feel it. Feel it. Be apart of it. Look at this stage as wanting to understand and get to know your emotion like a friend, and before you know it the power begins to lift.

    Next, you could concentrate on how your body feels during this moment. Are your shoulders tight, does your head hurt, are you agitated and find it difficult to stay still? Realize this, and attempt to comfort your body through relaxation. Focus not on your mind now, but rather how your body feels. As your body relaxes, so will your mind.

    Now that you are a bit more relaxed and understand more about the emotion/thoughts that you had, you can observe them if you'd like or you can choose to continue breathing and forget them altogether. If you choose to observe the thought further, you can attempt to locate what was causing this thought and emotion. If you find this difficult, then drop it and continue with meditation. If you do find that you are able to locate the "idea" behind that thought and emotion, look deeply at it. Show it compassion and understanding. When you choose to understand the idea and not judge or condemn yourself for that thought, the power of that idea begins to lose power over your mind/thoughts. Rather than being something that you don't "desire," the thought/idea/emotion has become something that is true and is part of you. When your mind realizes this and accepts this, you cannot find the strength to condemn yourself for these thoughts any longer. You have shown yourself the ultimate representation of love - acceptance for any emotion/thought that occurs in you. As you begin to do this for varying thoughts/emotions, they will not affect you as drastically over time.

    Also, like others have previously mentioned, I would suggest that you look into metta (loving-kindness) meditation. This will help in accepting the thoughts, which is the only way you can truly let them go. Repression and hatred towards these thoughts will get you no where.

    PS: Remember that the more and longer that you practice, the easier it is to let go of thoughts. Much like anything that you practice, it becomes second nature. Take a musician for example. When he first starts playing a guitar, he must concentrate intently on his finger and eye coordination to form the correct chords. At first, his fingers find it difficult to pin down each string to make an uninhibited sound. But as he gains experience, and over time, he begins to concentrate are far more difficult aspects of music such as timing, rhythms, and collaborating with multiple musicians. When he first began practicing, this would have been impossible. However, now his mind has produced the required connections to play each chord effortlessly. Meditation, and letting go is no exception to this example. You will get better, it does take time and practice. Keep consistent to see real results.
  • The only thoughts you have to let go of are thoughts that are going to lead you to perform an unskillful action. Thoughts by nature will arise, linger, and fade eventually. To let go of them is to simply watch them.
  • @driedleaf
    What determines the types of thougts that arise, and how can they lead us?
  • @Silouan
    Our heart or mind determines what type of thoughts arise. They lead us by enticing and subduing our desires.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012
    @BoatS
    This will help in accepting the thoughts, which is the only way you can truly let them go.
    Thanks, interesting stuff. So in your view is "letting go" the result of fully accepting thoughts and moods, or is "letting go" an activity, something one can actually do?

    PS You seem to have made a lot of progress since your first post. ;)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012
    @driedleaf
    To let go of them is to simply watch them.
    I'm not clear how letting go is the same as mindfulness - could you elaborate? Thanks.
  • Don't argue with them, and they will dissolve. :)
  • BoatSBoatS Explorer
    edited August 2012
    Another question add on question towards thoughts:

    If you let all thoughts dissolve and create an impermanence towards them, then what "thoughts" or "beliefs" will determine your actions in the present moment? To me, it seems like someone acts (based on self observation) based on a set of ideals towards how you view the situation as a whole. If you only work on letting go of thoughts, do your internal "beliefs" - that I assume guide your actions - alter with them?

    @Silouan if you'd like to give your opinion on the origin of thoughts.
  • @BoatS
    Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also"

    I'm at work so will answer when I have some time. :-)
  • Prioritizing helps me. When a random negative thought pops in my head, I ask myself if it is important. Most of the time it isn't. I tell myself that I have more important things to think about, like my family and my friends. So I let that negativity drift away. I mean do you want to spent your precious time here thinking of negative thoughts or think about your family and friends?

    Or if you feel that you have no control, and therefore no choice but to have these negative thoughts that's not true. People can be brainwashed to think in different ways. You just have brainwash yourself in a good way. Well, I prefer to call it reprogramming. Every time a negative thought pops in my head, I train myself by explaining to myself why I shouldn't have thoughts like these. After a while I had less and less negative thoughts.
  • I'm not clear how letting go is the same as mindfulness - could you elaborate? Thanks.

    They are not the same, but I believe mindfulness can be trained to reach "letting go" as a result.

    "There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening accompanied by good will (+ compassion, empathetic joy, equanimity), dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.054.than.html

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    I'm not clear how letting go is the same as mindfulness - could you elaborate? Thanks.

    They are not the same, but I believe mindfulness can be trained to reach "letting go" as a result.

    "There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening accompanied by good will (+ compassion, empathetic joy, equanimity), dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.054.than.html

    Thanks. I do see "letting go" as a result rather than an activity, but I'm interested in how others think about it. Sometimes it seems that "letting go" is subtle aversion, pushing away that which we find unpleasant.
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