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The 8 precepts.

CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
edited February 2013 in Buddhism Basics
I follow all of the eight precepts, but I can't go without deodorant. If I go 10 minutes without deodorant my pits smell like onions... I know it's against the 8 precepts to use any perfumes, what should I do?
Tosh
«1

Comments

  • Be sensible...
    Lucy_Begood
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    So don't use it? use it? I am not sure what the wise choice is, otherwise I wouldn't have made the discussion.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Cory, to me there are different values of Precepts. If you think that using deodorant matters as much not murdering someone, then you need to think through things more. Once you get beyond the first 5 Precepts, quite a few of them start getting just a little silly...but that's just my take. I hope you're sitting on the floor. If you not, you too high!
    CoryInvincible_summerBunks
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    Haha, I thought the 8th only has to do with the bed, and my bed is on the floor.
  • Laypeople usually just follow the first five -- that doesn't mean you can't follow the others is you want, but it isn't a necessity. Sometimes you also have to balance the letter of the law with the necessity of every day living.
  • Maybe it would be worth investigating the purpose of the precept, and then follow along with the purpose. For instance, I believe the precept for sleeping on the floor/having a low bed was so that one could not hide women under their bed. So, instead of following the precept to the letter, maybe just honor the idea that you would not hide women under your bed.

    I am sure that there must be some other guiding rule somewhere that says one should be clean and take care of one's body. To me, using deodorant would follow along with this. Maybe using deodorant does not follow in the "don't wear perfume" precept...just an idea.
    BhanteLucky
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited February 2013
    You won't want to wear a strong cologne in a room full of people who are trying meditate, obviously. It could be distracting to others.
    Sitting in a room full of meditators if you stink from body odor is no good for the same reasons.
    Why else would there be a rule about it? It is not vain to not want to stink.
    chelaCory
  • . . . you should not wear 'onion perfume', even if natural . . .

    I sometimes wear gifted Islamic sandalwood perfume/deodorant and sometimes flavour my clothes with perfumed washing powders and use perfumed soap and hand washes where provided by more fragrant family members, otherwise I would smell of old trout . . .

    Don't have a cow man
    bodhi Bart Simpson
    Invincible_summerLucy_Begood
  • Cory, it's a no-brainer: use fragrance-free deodorant.

    Sheesh.
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    It's more a matter of good hygene.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    If you're super strict there are good normal deodorants that have no perfume in them. Most pharmacies will have them. I used it for a long time as I was allergic to the perfume in it.

    But the intention of that rule is to discourage people using perfumes as an adornment, as a thing to make one beautiful, desirable, to excite the senses.
    So if you go by the intention, the spirit of the rule, deodorant is ok.

    Ditto this. Also the 8 precepts are really only taken by lay followers for a breif time like on special holy days or when one is on retreat, I think they are seen as rather strict for someone living a lay life.
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    Dakini said:

    Cory, it's a no-brainer: use fragrance-free deodorant.

    Sheesh.

    I was going by logic. If it doesn't have a scent how is it going to block the bad one. I'd figure if the deodorant has no smell the smell would go right through it. And I don't use antiperspirant because it's not good for you.

    sheesh


  • check into companies that use plant derivatives and have not tested them cruely on animals.
  • Cory said:

    Dakini said:

    Cory, it's a no-brainer: use fragrance-free deodorant.

    Sheesh.

    I was going by logic. If it doesn't have a scent how is it going to block the bad one. I'd figure if the deodorant has no smell the smell would go right through it. And I don't use antiperspirant because it's not good for you.

    I think there's more to it than the fragrance masking your odor -- it probably has something in it that helps to neutralize it. I've used fragrance free deodorant that worked, fragrancy deodorant that worked, and fragrancy deodorant that didn't work. It's all trial and error till you find out what does the job. But really, I wouldn't worry too much. People generally don't use deodorant the way they use perfume.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    There are a lot of great natural products that can remove odor without making you smell funny and without being unhealthy for you. It is mostly the aluminum that is unhealthy for you. Any health food store or coop will have many options. The only time I wear antiperspirant when I need to, like at a fancy event or something where having sweat stains on your dress just is not a good thing. Otherwise just deodorant. I use Tom's brand myself.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    In Thailand a lot of men use talcum.
  • Cory said:

    Dakini said:

    Cory, it's a no-brainer: use fragrance-free deodorant.

    Sheesh.

    I was going by logic. If it doesn't have a scent how is it going to block the bad one. I'd figure if the deodorant has no smell the smell would go right through it. And I don't use antiperspirant because it's not good for you.

    sheesh
    I thought the main point of deodorant was the antiperspirant aspect. Covering up your own odor with another one will only make the problem worse. Go to a health food store, or look online. There are antiperspirants that are not unhealthy for you.

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    The 8 precepts are rather notoriously difficult to keep if your non monastic within my tradition they are taken on a 24 hour basis, however the 5 precepts of Pratimoksha are kept daily.
  • The seventh precept says: “I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics.”

    I suppose the precept is against all aspects of a “frivolous” lifestyle and of having fun altogether. Instead one should behave in a dignified manner and be serious at all times.
    Strange that they didn’t include a prohibition on laughing and listening to jokes in the precept. Laughing is frivolous; so it must be against the spirit of Dharma!

    (Sorry for my sarcasm. But I will add this “problem” to my list of Buddhist absurdities.)
    vinlyn
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    zenff said:

    Strange that they didn’t include a prohibition on laughing and listening to jokes in the precept. Laughing is frivolous; so it must be against the spirit of Dharma!

    (Sorry for my sarcasm. But I will add this “problem” to my list of Buddhist absurdities.)

    Unfortunatley I have met a very senior, very important Burmese monk who does indeed say that. He was the grimmest, stiffest, most dry-stick old monk.
    I said to my dhamma-buddy, "if I ever get like that, kill me immediately and hope I'm less humourless in my next life."
    lobster
  • Cory said:


    If it doesn't have a scent how is it going to block the bad one.
    I'd figure if the deodorant has no smell the smell would go right through it. And I don't use antiperspirant because it's not good for you.

    The smell from sweat in the main comes from bacteria in your armpits and also some foods you consume.

    Keep your underarms trimmed... you don't have to shave them - just keep them not so whispy.

    When you wash, use shampoo to really get in there like it's your head - shower at least once a day.

    Drink lots of water - dehydration will make your excretions more pungent.

    Some foods like garlic and onion are good for you but they will make you smell of them for a few days.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2013
    I've never heard of deodorant classified as a perfume. :)

    As for the eight precepts, those move into another area of training for the mind. Again, Ajaan Suwat: "The eight precepts add the element of restraint of the senses." Each of the added precepts places restraints on the types of pleasures we might try to get through the sense doors. The precept against illicit sex turns into a precept against sex, period. That covers all of the sense doors right there. Then there's the precept against eating after noon or before dawn. That covers pleasures of taste. The precept against watching shows, listening to music, using perfumes and scents covers pleasures of sight, hearing, and smell. And then the precept against high and luxurious beds and seats covers the sense of touch. As you go down the list, you can see that each of the five senses is covered. This adds a higher level of restraint and places some barriers on our typical ways of indulging our desire for pleasure: evening munchies; the desire for a nice, thick mattress to lie on; wanting to smell nice; liking to listen to music. By taking on these precepts, you learn to put some barriers around your self-indulgence.


    Do you or anyone else derive pleasure from smelling deodorant? I sure don't! Does wearing deodorant cause more self indulgence?
    CoryLucy_Begood
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    @seeker242 I definitely don't get pleasure from perfumes or colognes. They give me a creaming head ache, but everybody in my house wears them.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2013
    deodorant should not be taken as perfume. the intention behind using deodorant is usually to help oneself and others not to suffer because of our body odour. obviously, if you are going to an office place or someother place, where there are lot of other people around you, it is an act of compassion to not make them suffer because of our bad body odour. the purpose of deodorant is not to make us smell good, rather the purpose of the deodorant is to subside our bad body odour. if deodrant is solely used for helping others to avoid bad smell, then wearing deodorant shall not cause self-indulgence. But if deodorant is used with the idea of 'my' body not smelling bad to others, then i think it causes self-indulgence slightly. Both these are almost same things, but the intention differs slightly depending on how much importance you give to 'you'.
    riverflowCory
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran

    ... it is an act of compassion to not make them suffer because of our bad body odour.

    That's a really good point. I would think it is more important to think of others and be considerate, rather than obey the letter of the rule.
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    edited February 2013
    @Cory http://www.crystalspring.co.uk/products/natural-deodorants-crystal-deodorants/crystal-deodorant-classic?gclid=CMypw7yk1LUCFVDMtAod3R8A1w rock salt deodorant. Not flavoured or scented (as far as I know) all natural... apparently it works too.
    CoryInvincible_summer
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    I don't know about anyone else, but no one has ever complimented me on my choice of deodorant; as a woman I don't consider using deodorant as a way of making myself smell nice, rather as a way of preventing a horrid sweat smell during a busy day... but I use the roll on stuff, and you can't really tell whether a woman is wearing deodorant, you can just tell if they need to :p I suppose it is different for men, men use the spray which is more 'perfumey'. My husband never ever uses deodorant. He is one of these lucky few people that just NEVER smell.. he claims it is his Chinese blood (he's part Jamaican, part Chinese, part English.. yes he has three parents lol). Anyway. How far do you (want to) take this? Do we (you) not bathe with bubble bath any more? Is it really vanity to want to smell nice? Or etiquette? I guess it is personal perspective. Personally, I like it when someone walks past me with a nice perfume.. there is a man that comes into the bakery where I work and I noticed he was wearing a really nice scent. I asked him what it was.. turns out he was actually wearing a perfume, and not an aftershave. Amarige... so I went and bought a bottle. I drown myself in my Amarige, ESPECIALLY if I am going out on public transport! But, I am not wishing to take my Buddhist practice as far as some people.. precepts 6, 7 and 8 are a no no for me, but high five to those that do stick by them :clap:
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    edited February 2013
    But why take the eight precepts anyway, for a lay person there is no point, the five precepts are recommended for lay people the eight precepts just make life extremely difficult for a lay person and some of the rules if you think about are quite ridiculous, stupid even, the not eating before noon rule especially, does your family tolerate you not eating dinner with them and also if you go to school you probably have to skip lunch because its nomrally just past noon in school.
    trendybuddhavinlynBhanteLucky
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Most deodorants use baking soda or something similar to absorb the smell, not to mask it. Mine smells like lavender but my armpits don't, lol. My husband uses a regular stick style deodorant and it smells heavenly. Neither of us wear cologne or anything, but if we weren't already married I'd totally try to pick him up after getting a whiff of his deodorant, LOL. But that's only right when he first puts it on.

    As far as the precepts, whatever floats your boat. I believe that @Cory is still a teenager, and it probably is difficult to get all the calories and nutrition a teenage male (I assume by the name) needs in just breakfast and school lunch. So, I hope if you are following the precept about eating after noon that you are making sure you are getting enough to eat. My 16 year old eats around 5000 calories a day. Be pretty darn hard to get that in 2 meals. Though, all schools are different with their lunches. My son's grade eats lunch at 11:30. Anyhow, it is not worth it to endanger your health or well being just to keep precepts.
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    @Dandelion I have allergies to most perfumes, so that's my problem. :-/
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    @Cory. Ah. But you are ok with the deodorants you use in terms of them not bring out your allergy? Definitely best all round for you to stick to natural products.
  • Cory said:

    @seeker242 I definitely don't get pleasure from perfumes or colognes. They give me a creaming head ache, but everybody in my house wears them.

    This is a health issue. Sounds like you have allergies to some of the chemical components of perfumes. Does your family know this? Who needs to use perfumes at home, anyway--usually people only put it on when they're going out. You should discuss this with your family and ask for their support with your allergies. You shouldn't have to live with migraines or headaches, when the cause can be easily eliminated. This is what caring parents do for their kids, even if it means organizing the other kids to support the allergic child's needs.

    Someone probably already said this, but beyond the basic 5 precepts, only those preparing for the monastic life usually observe the other 3. That's pretty good if you've been able to observe all 8 so far. But you don't have to. In fact, in some (most?) Buddhist countries, lay people don't observe any at all, except on special occasions. I think the basic 5 are a good discipline to observe, though.

    Another helpful point; in the Mahayana tradition, there's a "greater good" principle that guides people as to when to lighten up on the precepts. For example, it's ok to lie if it saves someone's life, saving a life being the greater good. So if not wearing deodorant would cause everyone around you to suffer from your body odor, the wiser course would be to use deodorant. You wouldn't be getting attached to the perfume, anyway. The precepts are about avoiding attachment and avoiding making poor decisions due to attachment.

    Cory
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    edited February 2013
    I share a room, like I have said in previous threads. I ask constantly for him to stop, but he puts on cologne for no reason what so ever. "Waking up? Let me put on some cologne. Getting out of the shower? Let me put on some cologne. Getting up off my bed for once to go get a snack? Let me put on some cologne. Going to work at my job where I cook in a kitchen? Let me put on some cologne..." No matter what. And it's soooo stroonngggg.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    ...

    As for the eight precepts, those move into another area of training for the mind. ...

    In other words, there's nothing wrong with murdering people. It's just a training rule.

  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    edited February 2013
    vinlyn said:



    In other words, there's nothing wrong with murdering people. It's just a training rule.

    I think Seeker was referring to the last 3, and was saying The first 5 were what I should follow.

  • Cory said:

    I share a room, like I have said in previous threads. I ask constantly for him to stop, but he puts on cologne for no reason what so ever. "Waking up? Let me put on some cologne. Getting out of the shower? Let me put on some cologne. Getting up off my bed for once to go get a snack? Let me put on some cologne. Going to work at my job where I cook in a kitchen? Let me put on some cologne..." No matter what. And it's soooo stroonngggg.

    Oh. I see. Is there a basement you could move into? And btw, when is he graduating, and will he be going to college? Is there freedom for you in the relatively near future?

  • swaydamswaydam Veteran
    edited February 2013
    I just use baking soda
  • swaydamswaydam Veteran
    edited February 2013
    (accidental repost)
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    @dakini He is graduating this year, and here in florida there's not that many homes with basements sadly. Always wanted one.
  • You have a chemical sensitivity issue, @Cory. For some people, those can develop to include more and more chemicals over time (over years/decades), such as household cleaning chemicals, and the like. I wonder if there's some other space you could occupy in the home, like the laundry room , or something, or maybe move in with a different sibling (I guess you would have already thought of that, it if were an option), to get into a healthier environment. You only have a few months to hang on, I guess, if he's going away to college. Still, that's no fun to live with, and not healthy. :(
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    I am moving really soon and my step brother is moving back to his dads. Then I will have a room to myself.
  • Cory said:

    I am moving really soon and my step brother is moving back to his dads. Then I will have a room to myself.

    Sounds good. Sounds like he needs his dad. That's good to hear, that his dad is taking over his care.
  • slice thin layers of lemon or orange skin
    and wrap them in a small cloth eg hankerchief
    and keep it in your pocket.
    you will smell fresh.
    Cory said:

    I follow all of the eight precepts, but I can't go without deodorant. If I go 10 minutes without deodorant my pits smell like onions... I know it's against the 8 precepts to use any perfumes, what should I do?

    blu3ree
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    Dandelion said:

    @Cory http://www.crystalspring.co.uk/products/natural-deodorants-crystal-deodorants/crystal-deodorant-classic?gclid=CMypw7yk1LUCFVDMtAod3R8A1w rock salt deodorant. Not flavoured or scented (as far as I know) all natural... apparently it works too.

    I used to use this stuff (albeit a different brand). It's awesome! Has no odour whatsoever (even the "scentless" deodorants have a weird petroleum jelly smell to me), and is all natural.

    The only downsides are that if you are a profuse sweater, you have to re-apply fairly frequently. Also, it's quite fragile - if you drop it, you're left with a sharp piece of salt that is definitely not fun to apply. I've tried...
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    Dandelion said:

    @Cory http://www.crystalspring.co.uk/products/natural-deodorants-crystal-deodorants/crystal-deodorant-classic?gclid=CMypw7yk1LUCFVDMtAod3R8A1w rock salt deodorant. Not flavoured or scented (as far as I know) all natural... apparently it works too.

    I used to use this stuff (albeit a different brand). It's awesome! Has no odour whatsoever (even the "scentless" deodorants have a weird petroleum jelly smell to me), and is all natural.

    The only downsides are that if you are a profuse sweater, you have to re-apply fairly frequently. Also, it's quite fragile - if you drop it, you're left with a sharp piece of salt that is definitely not fun to apply. I've tried...
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran

    But why take the eight precepts anyway, for a lay person there is no point, the five precepts are recommended for lay people the eight precepts just make life extremely difficult for a lay person and some of the rules if you think about are quite ridiculous, stupid even, the not eating before noon rule especially, does your family tolerate you not eating dinner with them and also if you go to school you probably have to skip lunch because its nomrally just past noon in school.

    The 8 precepts are taken on a 24 hour basis as a way to practice extensive morale discipline, Purify negative karma and collect merit, They are often kept in conjunction with the Nyungne purification practice of Avalokiteshvara.
    CoryInvincible_summer
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2013
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:

    ...

    As for the eight precepts, those move into another area of training for the mind. ...

    In other words, there's nothing wrong with murdering people. It's just a training rule.

    I don't know where you are getting that from! What he, Thanissaro Bhikkhu (that was an excerpt from his dharma talk here), is saying is keeping 8 precepts is more intensive (another area) than keeping 5 precepts, keeping 10 is more intensive than 8, etc, etc, etc. And of course 8 still includes the first five, 10 still includes the first five, etc.
    Cory said:

    vinlyn said:



    In other words, there's nothing wrong with murdering people. It's just a training rule.

    I think Seeker was referring to the last 3, and was saying The first 5 were what I should follow.

    All I was trying to say was that deodorant isn't a perfume. :) I would never discourage anyone from trying to keep more than the basic 5 precepts. I know laypersons who keep 64 of them, nothing wrong with that!
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited February 2013
    Intention is hugely important in Buddhism. If you have a compassionate intent for those around you, wear deodorant. Some of us are attached to not having to smell unpleasant smells. In this sense, wearing deodorant is an act of compassion.

    I love garlic, but if I know I'm going to be mixing with non-garlic-eaters, I'll tone it down a bit; out of compassion for 'em. Old Tosh would've thought, "Stuff 'em, I love garlic and don't care what other people think".
    Cory
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