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Scatterbrained after sitting + how to interpret bliss?

Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal DhammaWe(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
Just so you know what type of meditation I'm doing, I've been doing a lot of sits based on the instructions found in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's With Each and Every Breath. Samatha? Anyways, I've had some questions regarding stuff that's happened during and after sitting.

1) Just the other day, I had a very "good" sit where my concentration was strong and I feel like I had a lot of awareness of the sensations going on in my body. But after I got up, I felt like my brain was really scattered. I tried to write an e-mail and it felt like I was writing on auto-pilot, like "I" wasn't really doing it. Despite the awareness and concentration I had during meditation, it seemed that it all disappeared after I stood up. Even if I tried to concentrate on my breath while doing tasks, I felt like I wasn't really too focused. This lasted for a couple of hours at least.

Why would this be? Is there anything I should do about it?

2) I had a handful of consecutive sits where I experienced peaceful/blissful "waves" of energy pass through my body combined with concentration. Of course, this was very exciting. However, the past few sits I've done have not been as fruitful. I just sit and nothing really happens, despite 4-6 sits where those sensations came quite consistently.

Today I did a sit where I started to notice that peaceful/blissful sensation build up in my chest, but when I went to focus on it, it evaporated.

Why could that be? Perhaps I'm subconsciously grasping too much for those pleasurable sensations? Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way.

mithril

Comments

  • Just so you know what type of meditation I'm doing, I've been doing a lot of sits based on the instructions found in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's With Each and Every Breath. Samatha?

    Yes, this is primarily samatha meditation, at the start.

    ...after I got up, I felt like my brain was really scattered. I tried to write an e-mail and it felt like I was writing on auto-pilot, like "I" wasn't really doing it. Despite the awareness and concentration I had during meditation, it seemed that it all disappeared after I stood up. Even if I tried to concentrate on my breath while doing tasks, I felt like I wasn't really too focused. This lasted for a couple of hours at least.

    This is very common, and the reasons could be quite complex and idiosyncratic. Generally, if you want to bring the fruits of meditation into daily life, it is best to start with extremely simple activities which leave plenty of room for continued attention to internal phenomena. This attention is necessary to identify the causes and conditions of your experience. For instance, when you're not feeling too focused, try to remember what happened internally and externally just before you started feeling that way. Then you can start crafting more skillful responses to those phenomena.

    Walking or washing the dishes are common examples of simple activities to start with. Writing an email is pretty cognitively demanding, and it could take a while to develop the skill to meditate at the same time.

    ...the past few sits I've done have not been as fruitful. I just sit and nothing really happens, despite 4-6 sits where those sensations came quite consistently.

    Can you give some more detail as to how you are meditating? Re-reading the instructions you are following from Each and Every Breath and noting any differences here would be a good place to start.

    Today I did a sit where I started to notice that peaceful/blissful sensation build up in my chest, but when I went to focus on it, it evaporated. Why could that be? Perhaps I'm subconsciously grasping too much for those pleasurable sensations? Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way.

    What did you go to focus on? Generally, you don't want to focus on the pleasure itself, you want to rest attention on the sensations and let the pleasure happen. This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but although the pleasure is arising dependent on the sensations, it is actually a separate phenomenon from them.
    JeffreylobsterInvincible_summer
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    All experiences and phenomena are imperfect and impermanent. Rather than bad news this is actually good news because we can let go of the good ones and the bad.

    Also there is always a birth, manifestation, and death of any phenomena. Again this is actually a good thing because it means we can stop grasping and craving which are unsatisfying. Meditation has a focus of manifesting, but it is the nature of mind to diffuse outward again.
    Invincible_summer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    but when I went to focus on it, it evaporated.
    So don't focus on it.
    Let it abide. Be relaxed about/with it. Fivebells has offered you good advice. Do something slow simple and engaging afterwards. If you tighten around it, it will escape through your grasp. No grasp, no big deal . . .

    It sounds subtle. Don't worry it, don't ascribe meaning or importance to it. It is a form of emptiness after all . . .

    Be gentle.
    JeffreyInvincible_summer
  • I can relate to your experience. I've asked a similar question to two meditation instructors and received two separate answers which have both helped me.

    First answer. Don't look for anything. Just follow the instructions. It comes and goes.
    I'm smiling because I know what you are talking about so well. You are doing it exactly right my friend.

    "Should these even be sensations that I should seek to experience? Not "seek" in a "this is the point of meditation" way, but more in a "Is this something that happens when you're doing it right" way."

    Follow the instructions and don't look for anything, just look. Then you tell me what happens when you are doing it the right way.

    I think that was the better answer but just because it's fun, the second answer I received is: one doesn't necessarily know when progress is being made.

    My elaboration:
    Say you're a runner and you have been given a training regimen by your coach. Somedays you have good runs where everything feels great and you can run forever. Then somedays you are tired and the run doesn't feel so great. On those days your coach has a smile on his face and says good work. You think, good work??, I didn't even push the pace today!!... One doesn't necessarily know when the hardest most important work is being done.


    Invincible_summerlobsterJeffrey
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    @fivebells - For how long after a meditation session would you recommend not doing cognitively strenuous activity?

    Okay so to go into detail about how I use With Each and Every Breath:

    "Focusing on the Breath":
    Step 1 "Find a comfortable way of breathing": I do (A) ("maintain a sense of relaxation in the areas that have been feeling strained toward the end of
    the in-breath") when I sit.
    Step 2 "Stay with each in-and-out breath": I don't use any meditation words - I just focus.
    Step 3 "... expand awareness to different parts of the body...": I don't follow Thanissaro Bhikkhu's suggested map exactly, as I couldn't remember what it was when I sat down to meditate. I start at the abdomen/navel like he suggests, but then I focus on the upper legs, then lower legs, then feet, then upwards to the solar plexus, shoulders, upper arms, lower arms, hands, then up to the neck and then finally end at the crown of my head.
    I don't focus on energy entering through these areas though. I tend to picture the breath flowing into these areas from the nose. So like nose--down through body--navel.

    I'm not quite sure how long I spend on each area. I tend to do a general "body scan" once or twice, then just focus on the areas that are tense until they are not tense or I feel that I've spent enough time on them.

    Step 4 "Choose a spot to settle down": I typically choose the tip of the nose, sometimes both the tip of the nose and the abdomen. I've only tried one other location on a whim - between the eyebrows - and it just gave me a tense face and a headache.
    Step 5 "Spread your awareness from that spot so that it fills the body through every in-and­
    out breath.":
    I do this by picturing the breath energy flowing through my body like a diagram of the nervous system. I guess it sort of goes along with the next step (Step 6: "Think of the breath energy coursing through the whole body with every in-and-out
    breath.")

    Actually, I tend to do these things out of the order given: I usually go Step 1,2,4,3,5. That's just what felt "natural" to me. Perhaps I could try doing it in the exact order? I guess steps 2 and 4 sort of seemed like the same thing to me, but I can see why Thanissaro Bhikkhu may have chosen this particular sequence.

    "Common Problems":
    - Pain: I tend to do (1) - " Don’t change your posture and don’t focus attention directly on the pain." I've been trying the breath flowing into the pain thing, but it doesn't work for me. I haven't tried asking myself questions as it seems too distracting and the likeliness of it breaking off into a monkey-mind thing is very high.
    - Wandering thoughts: I return to the breath

    As for what I focused on when the pleasurable sensations came up, I made a mental note that a new sensation was occurring then tried to concentrate on the quality of it; where it was originating from, how intensely, where it was spreading to, etc.

    @Jeffrey - Could you elaborate on "the mind diffus[ing] outward?"

    @lobster - Thanks for the reminder. It's just that the experiences are so strong and profound - and I'm new to this type of practice - so it's difficult for me to not try and ascribe some sort of meaning to it.

    @fixingjulian - Thanks for the analogy. As a runner, it really helps! Funny how sometimes our minds are so compartmentalized that we don't apply lessons we learn from one aspect of our lives into the others. When I was doing zazen, I easily kept the "don't judge your sitting" mindset. Now that I'm trying a more Theravadan style of meditation, I seemed to have forgotten the lessons I learned in from all that zen sitting.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    so it's difficult for me to not try and ascribe some sort of meaning to it.
    It has 'meaning'. It has sensation. You can certainly be confident that practice works.

    Let me put it another way. I once met someone who was in the 'god realm'. He had entered and stayed in a euphoric, blissed out state. Having been in similar places myself for a long time, I knew how painful it would be to leave. Because of circumstances, I was unable to help him at the dharma centre, he was crazed by bliss. I am not suggesting this will happen to you.
    What I am suggesting is how the Sufis deal with such states:

    The experiences of reality are as diverse as the people in the world. Grace can manifest in thousand-fold ways. The student of Sufism soon learns that it is often better not to disclose ones own inner experiences, as inner experiences are always different with different people. To talk about them is somehow to influence the listener, and to create in him, or her, a kind of expectation for similar experiences. But the two experiences will never be the same. We are all unique beings, and our experience of God is also unique. Although a Sufi may be inwardly “drunk,” he is outwardly sober. Though Sufis can know and understand the inner state of one another, outwardly they will never profess to this knowledge except in the rarest of circumstances. They prefer not to attract attention to themselves by showing evidence of inner states or powers that are not accessible to average individuals.
    http://www.sufischool.org/students/ps1.html

    I apologise for not translating this into dharma talk but I hope the gist and not the unchewed Lobster shell will be useful . . .

    Chill
    :wave:
    maartenInvincible_summer
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    I haven't practiced Thanissaro's meditation style specifically, but what you're describing is pretty common and has happened to me as well. Jack Kornfield writes about this often. In fact, he has a whole book on it called After the Ecstacy, the Laundry.

    In meditation, we often "play the edge" of how much "selfing" activity is necessary to go about our lives. Sometimes we overshoot the target and end up in a state that is not optimal for functioning in our everyday context. The Buddha makes a big deal of bliss and rapture in the Anapanasati Sutta -- not because there is anything inherently special about those experiences -- but because these states signal a point of stillness and ease (better put, satisfaction -- the opposite of dukkha). But although this is technically "the end of dukkha", we can't just stop there because it only temporarily apprehends dukkha. We will still need to cultivate a skillful garden of the mind such that dukkha is less likely to arise off the cushion.

    In bliss and rapture, we come to rest just at the point in the chain of dependent origination that is between feeling (vedana) and craving (tanha). This is a powerful place to be, because it allows us to co-opt and halt the processes that lead to suffering, and then cultivate skillful habits of mind (bhavana). The aim is to bring the mind into such stillness and peace that we become very sensitive to the movement of the mind in any direction that might lead to needless suffering. Unless we're in a retreat setting and have the luxury of spending most of our time meditating and dwelling in the jhanas, the benefit is not so much immediate as cumulative. As fivebells notes, it will take time to learn how to best use this newfound subtlety of mind in a skillful way in your daily life. Bhavana is also about building skill, no different than learning a new sport or language. Meditation helps to support development in the other aspects of the Eightfold Path, although you'll have to consciously contemplate and practice those ethical and intellectual practices as well.

    So, keep at it. :) It sounds like you're on the right track.
    lobsterInvincible_summerpegembaramisecmisc1
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013

    @fivebells - For how long after a meditation session would you recommend not doing cognitively strenuous activity?

    Hi, Summer. It depends on your objectives. When I suggested working with simple behaviors like walking or washing the dishes, that was for the purpose of extending to daily life the attention to internal phenomena that you're developing in meditation. From that perspective, how long is just a question of how long you have to commit to it.

    I didn't intend it as a way to avoid the strange feeling you had after meditating that time. The causes and conditions of that feeling are probably fairly complex and idiosyncratic, and to understand them you'll probably need to experience the precursors to the feeling a few more times. If it doesn't come up anymore, it's not worth worrying about, but I assume you asked about it because you're worried about its effects if it continues to arise.

    I can't say much more than that at this stage, except that it may well (but may not) be a feeling which was already there and you just didn't notice before, and that once its causes and conditions are better understood there may be a more direct remedy in terms of them.

    Okay so to go into detail about how I use With Each and Every Breath:

    You might consider beginning each session with metta meditation as described on p. 23 and pp 26-28. I find this very helpful for settling the mind and priming it to attend to pleasurable sensations. It's also useful to end this way:
    When the time comes to leave meditation, remind yourself that there's a skill to leaving. In other words, you don't just jump right out. My teacher, Ajaan Fuang, once said that when most people meditate, it's as if they're climbing a ladder up to the second story of a building: step-by-step-by-step, rung-by-rung, slowly up the ladder. But as soon as they get to the second story, they jump out the window. Don't let yourself be that way. Think of how much effort went into getting yourself centered. Don't throw it away.

    The first step in leaving is to spread thoughts of good will once more to all the people around you. Then, before you open your eyes, remind yourself that even though you're going to have your eyes open, you want your attention to stay centered in the body, at the breath. Try to maintain that center as long as you can, as you get up, walk around, talk, listen, whatever. In other words, the skill of leaving meditation lies in learning how not to leave it, regardless of whatever else you may be doing. Act from that sense of being centered. If you can keep the mind centered in this way, you'll have a standard against which you can measure its movements, its reactions to the events around it and within it. Only when you have a solid center like this can you gain insight into the movements of the mind.
    I can't tell you whether this would help with the post-meditation experience you described.

    I don't focus on energy entering through these areas though. I tend to picture the breath flowing into these areas from the nose. So like nose--down through body--navel.

    For me, this is a bit of a complex meditation, especially when I start to think about spreading the breath energy elsewhere in the body. I generally get better results when I imagine breathing through the area directly, because it's simpler. It's only worth trying it this way if it doesn't strain your imagination, but keep in mind that the whole process is imaginary and intended as a tool for training the mind to attention and rest. There's no need to be anatomically correct about it.

    I'm not quite sure how long I spend on each area. I tend to do a general "body scan" once or twice, then just focus on the areas that are tense until they are not tense or I feel that I've spent enough time on them.

    Sounds good, I generally don't spend long on this step at all, just look for a part of the body where there are pleasant sensations and go straight there.

    I typically choose the tip of the nose, sometimes both the tip of the nose and the abdomen. I've only tried one other location on a whim - between the eyebrows - and it just gave me a tense face and a headache.

    Don't be afraid to try other places. I generally use one of the chakras. If there is great distress causing unpleasant sensations in all the chakras, I can usually find pleasant sensations in my extremities.

    I do this by picturing the breath energy flowing through my body like a diagram of the nervous system. I guess it sort of goes along with the next step (Step 6: "Think of the breath energy coursing through the whole body with every in-and-out
    breath.")

    This is good, and you'll probably get even better results if you give some attention to spreading the sense of ease, comfort and pleasure from the starting point to other areas as you expand. This is crucial in my practice.

    Actually, I tend to do these things out of the order given: I usually go Step 1,2,4,3,5. That's just what felt "natural" to me. Perhaps I could try doing it in the exact order? I guess steps 2 and 4 sort of seemed like the same thing to me, but I can see why Thanissaro Bhikkhu may have chosen this particular sequence.

    The order you're doing it in is fine. The difference between steps 2 and 4 are that after the survey in step 3, you can more reliably identify a spot where "the breath energy is clear and you find it easy to stay focused."

    Reading through his instructions again as I go through your notes, I am surprised that he doesn't make more of the sense of comfort and pleasure. For me, that has been crucial. He gives more emphasis to it in "Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death", which I read before Each and Every Breath came out, so that is what I have been thinking of.

    He does emphasize it more in the introduction:
    The pleasure and refreshment that can come from working and playing with the breath
    provide your ardency with a source of inner food. This inner food helps you deal with the
    obstreperous members of the committee of the mind who won’t back down unless they get
    immediate gratification. You learn that simply breathing in a particular way gives rise to an
    immediate sense of pleasure. You can relax patterns of tension in different parts of the
    body—the back of the hands, the feet, in your stomach or chest—that would otherwise
    trigger and feed unskillful urges. This alleviates the sense of inner hunger that can drive
    you to do things that you know aren’t skillful. So in addition to helping with your ardency,
    this way of working with the breath can help with your practice of virtue. (p. 17)
    I would add that attending to something which results in pleasure leads to a positive feedback loop, where the pleasure rewards the attention which tightens the attention's focus which increases the pleasure, etc. This is the way into jhana for me. I think I got this perspective from Leigh Brasington.

    However, it's also important not to let the mind collapse down on the pleasure, as this will ruin attentional component of the feedback loop, as you've seen.

    I've been trying the breath flowing into the pain thing, but it doesn't work for me. I haven't tried asking myself questions as it seems too distracting and the likeliness of it breaking off into a monkey-mind thing is very high.

    Try the approach in "Using Meditation to Deal with Pain, Illness & Death", linked above. Again, for me, spreading the sense of ease, comfort and pleasure along with the breath energy has been crucial.

    As for what I focused on when the pleasurable sensations came up, I made a mental note that a new sensation was occurring then tried to concentrate on the quality of it; where it was originating from, how intensely, where it was spreading to, etc.

    You might try dropping the noting. It can be useful for both concentration and insight, but it's mostly useful when you're trying to take yourself apart as directly as possible by seeing the self-as-it-is and understanding its drawbacks. That's a different goal than Thanissaro's meditation has, the goal here is to establish a secure foundation for a new kind of self which is more independent and attentive and hence more capable of taking itself apart (see pp 16-17 again.) It's more independent because it relies on pleasure fabricated from breath sensations rather than more external phenomena, and it's more attentive because it's actively and explicitly involved in that fabrication. Also, it's more capable of taking itself apart because it observed its own fabrication.

    Just leaving attention resting on the sensations associated breathing in the area you've chosen might prove to be more effective.
    lobsterInvincible_summermisecmisc1
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    @lobster - I think I get the gist of the Sufi passage you quoted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's saying that our spiritual experiences are our own and talking about them with others doesn't necessarily do us any good. This is because others' spiritual experiences probably won't be the same and they can't help us, nor will our blathering help them.

    If that's the meaning, then I would have to say that I agree with the sentiment, but practically speaking I don't know if I agree. Shouldn't the discussion of spiritual experiences be a way to ensure that people aren't getting hung up on the wrong thing?
    Glow said:

    The Buddha makes a big deal of bliss and rapture in the Anapanasati Sutta -- not because there is anything inherently special about those experiences -- but because these states signal a point of stillness and ease (better put, satisfaction -- the opposite of dukkha). But although this is technically "the end of dukkha", we can't just stop there because it only temporarily apprehends dukkha. We will still need to cultivate a skillful garden of the mind such that dukkha is less likely to arise off the cushion.

    @Glow - Yeah, I think this is where I suppose I misinterpreted the sutta a bit. I felt like because bliss was emphasized in the Anapanasati sutta, it was something that I should sort of chase after or cultivate. I didn't really think of it in the way that you mentioned. Thanks!

    Also, that Kornfield book is one I've been meaning to read! I should get on it soon.

    @fivebells - I appreciate your detailed and thoughtful response. I'll definitely try to "test out" variations in meditation to see what works best. I should also make sure I don't just get up and do other things immediately after meditating. I indeed "jump right out," which is probably what makes me feel disoriented and scattered.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Shouldn't the discussion of spiritual experiences be a way to ensure that people aren't getting hung up on the wrong thing?

    Euphoria and bliss and a pain in the neck, plus all kinds of negative arisings are common. What you are experiencing means you are on the right track. What if you experienced fear and loathing? It would have meaning but not something we grasp at . . .

    The later stages of practice we have to allude to, as words are not really available.

    So if I might suggest . . . ascribing meaning, discussing is a good thing . . . but not always possible. People are giving you excellent advice from their knowledge and experience. Listen, evaluate, decide and apply. All is well.

    :thumbsup:
    Invincible_summer
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Our meditation is neither right or wrong. A teacher can help to determine if it is the right track, of course. But I am not sure that there are good and bad meditations. It sure feels that way of course.

    “There are times to cultivate and create, when you nurture your world and give birth to new ideas and ventures. There are times of flourishing and abundance, when life feels in full bloom, energized and expanding. And there are times of fru…ition, when things come to an end. They have reached their climax and must be harvested before they begin to fade. And finally of course, there are times that are cold, and cutting and empty, times when the spring of new beginnings seems like a distant dream. Those rhythms in life are natural events. They weave into one another as day follows night, bringing, not messages of hope and fear, but messages of how things are.”

    Well, meditation is dealing with purpose itself… Generally we have a purpose for whatever we do: something is going to happen in the future, therefore, whatever I am doing now is im…portant — everything is related to that. But the whole idea of meditation is to develop an entirely different way of dealing with things, where you have no purpose at all. In fact, meditation is dealing with the question of whether or not there is a such thing as ‘purpose.’
    ~ Meditation in Action
    ^Both Trungpa Rinpoche
    Invincible_summer
  • @Jeffrey, as Trungpa says, there are times to cultivate and create, and that is what the meditation we're discussing here is about, cultivation of Jhana, and of the world views and selves which are conducive to Jhana. Thus, there are right and wrong ways to do this, just as there are right and wrong ways to cultivate a plant.

    I'm sure you don't really believe that our meditation is neither right or wrong. If I sit there saying to myself "Ungh! A thought! I'm useless at this meditation thing! Worthless, incompetent piece of shit! I should just get it over with and kill myself!" that's wrong. The Buddha talked about Right Concentration and Right Effort for a reason: the practice has a specific objective (the end of suffering) and some tasks and activities are more effective for achieving that objective than others.
    lobsterJeffreyInvincible_summer
  • fivebells said:



    I'm sure you don't really believe that our meditation is neither right or wrong. If I sit there saying to myself "Ungh! A thought! I'm useless at this meditation thing! Worthless, incompetent piece of shit! I should just get it over with and kill myself!" that's wrong.

    I dunno @fivebells 'wrong'?

    My teacher used to say 'You are not here to have a 'bad' or 'good' meditation - you are here to change yourself'. I feel @jeffrey has a point.
  • @John_Spencer Yes, wrong. The objective is to end suffering, and with respect to that there are right and wrong approaches and behaviors ("wrong" in the sense of "An unsuitable or undesirable manner or direction.")

    It's likely that you misunderstood your teacher's saying. Hopefully he meant that you work with whatever comes up, whether it seems bad or good, as a tool for self-transformation. There are right and wrong ways to work with it, though. Your quote at least suggests that he would regard as wrong any meditation activity which does not lead to transformation (at least eventually.)
    Invincible_summer
  • fivebells said:

    @John_Spencer Yes, wrong. The objective is to end suffering, and with respect to that there are right and wrong approaches and behaviors ("wrong" in the sense of "An unsuitable or undesirable manner or direction.")

    It's likely that you misunderstood your teacher's saying. Hopefully he meant that you work with whatever comes up, whether it seems bad or good, as a tool for self-transformation. There are right and wrong ways to work with it, though. Your quote at least suggests that he would regard as wrong any meditation activity which does not lead to transformation (at least eventually.)

    I dunno @fivebells, I think that 'unskillful' and 'skillful' are more helpful than 'wrong' and 'right' here, after all meditation is a skill we learn and practice, not a binary thing; on/off, right/wrong but more subtle.

    I notice you use the words 'bad' and 'good' as well. I'm not sure what you mean by 'bad' and 'good' in the context of a meditation experience.

    I'm pretty sure I understood what my teacher meant to say.

    :)
    lobster
  • @John_Spencer I got right and wrong from @Jeffrey, and I got good and bad from you (or your teacher). I'm happy to use skillful and unskillful, but in this context it seems like a distinction without a difference. Why don't you tell us what your teacher meant by good and bad in the context of a meditation experience?
    Sabre
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    With response to point 1, I've roughly experienced two ways of establishing concentration.

    One way is through 'wanting' to concentrate and using strength of will to keep going back to the object. For me this resulted in a shattered awareness after the meditation because it tired the mind. Only through 'willful attention' was there concentration. Outside of meditation, this will is not there anymore, so concentration is quickly gone as well. Perhaps this is the same as you have experienced, as you describe sort of a transition between sitting and not sitting. Anyway, this method I learned was not effective for me.

    Another way is through letting go of the idea of 'concentration' and letting the mind settle by itself on the chosen object. This way I found is more natural and the build up serenity of mindfulness is very easy to take into other activities, also when they are complicated. That's because you don't have to force it, the mind still stays in the natural attention you build up. This also lead me to a having a lot of what the suttas name "clear comprehension", while the 'forced' or 'steered' awareness does not. Clear comprehension for me is basically knowing what you are doing and why, outside of meditation also.

    This 'steering' is probably also the reason the nice feelings disappear. As soon as you start steering awareness to them, the mind gets sort of agitated. This is mainly noticeable for me with mental feelings of bliss, because they are very subtle and easily disturbed.

    I find it better not to use the word concentration in meditation, because the usual way we use the word has not much to do with meditation.

    I don't practice Thannissaro's way of meditation. Still hope the above helps in any way.
    JeffreyInvincible_summermaartenmisecmisc1
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    fivebells said:

    @Jeffrey, as Trungpa says, there are times to cultivate and create, and that is what the meditation we're discussing here is about, cultivation of Jhana, and of the world views and selves which are conducive to Jhana. Thus, there are right and wrong ways to do this, just as there are right and wrong ways to cultivate a plant.

    I'm sure you don't really believe that our meditation is neither right or wrong. If I sit there saying to myself "Ungh! A thought! I'm useless at this meditation thing! Worthless, incompetent piece of shit! I should just get it over with and kill myself!" that's wrong. The Buddha talked about Right Concentration and Right Effort for a reason: the practice has a specific objective (the end of suffering) and some tasks and activities are more effective for achieving that objective than others.

    No. Meditation is never right or wrong. Your authentic experience is the point. Right here and now. Right effort/view includes not thinking that meditation is right or wrong. Exactly as you described. The person you described thought that a thought was right or wrong. Trungpa said no thought deserves a sanction OR a gold star. The ground of being is always sane and whole. Thus commentary is just chatter manifesting hope and fear.
    Sabrelobstermisecmisc1
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Wrong, right.. skillful, unskillful... we can talk all we want, but it's ideas in the mind. Dhamma is not wrong or right, it is just as it is. The most skillful thing is not about wrong or right, it is not about skillful or unskillful either. To go beyond these and allow the bad to be the bad, and the good to be the good. That for me is the practice and the goal at the same time. That's where path and destination start to merge. Letting go of craving, that's this merging. When letting go is real, it is beyond good and bad, beyond wholesome and unwholesome.

    Sure, as concepts good and bad are useful, but to understand the concepts is not the end. And it all just depends on what point of view we have towards those things. Do we want to be good and not bad? Do we want to avoid the evil? If that's what we want, in my experience it's not letting go. If I want to be kind, it's not kind at all. Non-attachment is not like this, it's not skillful and not unskillful. It's where good and bad are the same. To not want to change anything is not craving.
    Jeffreylobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    The person described just has to persist. Eventually the penny will drop many of pennies over and over. They'll realize that they are in the space of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas. They are blessed wherever they are in their practice.

    What if a student cannot master a positive rapturous state? And they kill themselves because they couldn't do what others can? Did they see? What if you are on your deathbed in so much pain that the bag of tricks doesn't help? Have you ever entered rapturous meditation while having a running fever and chills? I take faith in my mind as a death practice that I can do in my final minutes. What else can I do? My teacher takes this as relaxing into heart connections which is something she perceives as real and outside of limitations of life and death. Love is love.
    Sabrelobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    I sneezed whilst meditating this morning. That is an arising. No different . . .
    Invincible_summer
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Thanks glow that makes sense to me. But we are rarely at the beach and a death practice is relevant. (obvious)

    In synthesis I think a warm genorisity to all states most fruitful. No guaramtees in life. Only unconditional heart and mind. Openness to changes.
    lobsterGlow
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    Oh, I definitely agree that a heart that can welcome all states is of great value. In fact, I think that's what the Buddha is getting at with this practice. However, in order to create such a mind that can greet whatever arises, most of us need to step out of our reactivity. True, we're rarely at the beach. But we can establish a beach whenever we sit. That's not to say it needs to be a tropical oasis. Sometimes that beach will be stormy with crashing waves. Our job is to notice the waves and wind for what they are -- feelings in and of themselves, thoughts in and of themselves, a body sitting and breathing here and now.
    Invincible_summerlobstermisecmisc1
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Yes. There they are. Such as it is. Everyone feels a touchstone in the soft spot in their heart. I'll be frank in that I discovered buddhism in uncertain times in my life when I might have been discouraged. But I felt a devotion. And I found that so valuable. I would want to share to everyone.
    We are blessed to have a devotion if possible. Put nothing on a pedistal. And that is my truth as I see it.
    GlowInvincible_summerlobster
  • fivebells said:

    @John_Spencer I got right and wrong from @Jeffrey, and I got good and bad from you (or your teacher). I'm happy to use skillful and unskillful, but in this context it seems like a distinction without a difference. Why don't you tell us what your teacher meant by good and bad in the context of a meditation experience?

    Hi @fivebells - I feel the language is important because I wouldn't walk away from a swimming lesson saying that I had swam 'right' or 'wrong' but that I had either improved my skills or had not.

    Meditation is a set of skills much like swimming. It aims to get us to a further shore...

    Similarly, my teacher didn't find the idea of judging a meditation 'good' or a meditation 'bad' as helpful.

    Was the meditation useful (ie conducive to Enlightenment) or not.

    That's what counts.

    lobster
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    No. Meditation is never right or wrong. Your authentic experience is the point. Right here and now. Right effort/view includes not thinking that meditation is right or wrong.

    Until all fabrication is released, it's very hard to say what's "authentic experience." Transcendent right effort/view does not involve preferences and prejudices, but the path to that is to understand the causes and conditions of suffering and, through this understanding, release them. To step off this path is wrong effort. In principle you can develop this understanding by simple observation, but it's much faster and more direct (especially in the beginning) to tamper with the causes and conditions, evaluate the effects, and establish better conditions if they lead to better effects.

    I agree that there is no room for evaluation at the point of release, no evaluation prescribed in the Bahiya sutta instructions for instance. But how many of us are at the point of release? I've been there, but so much karma gets in the way of that. What we're talking about in this thread is undoing that obstructive karma and replacing it with something more conducive to awakening. There is plenty of room for critical evaluation from this perspective.
    Jeffrey said:

    Exactly as you described. The person you described thought that a thought was right or wrong.

    I chose that example because it shows the logical absurdity of "no right or wrong." You think that the meditator's practice is wrong because he thinks he's wrong.
    Jeffrey said:

    Trungpa said no thought deserves a sanction OR a gold star. The ground of being is always sane and whole. Thus commentary is just chatter manifesting hope and fear.

    And where does a thought evaluating a thought lie in this ontology of the ground of being? We all come to meditation with hopes and fears for its effects. Why not fashion them into something useful to the path?
    Invincible_summer
  • Glow said:

    In the Anapanasati Sutta, you'll notice the Buddha doesn't tell his monks to manufacture any mind-state.

    This is interesting; I'm curious about how these passages look in your interpretation of the sutta:
    He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily/mental fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily/mental fabrication.'
    Similarly for releasing the mind and focusing on relinquishment. (Thanissaro's translation.)
    Invincible_summer
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    My interpretation is that he's telling you what to do and not what to feel (which is what I meant by manufacturing or contriving any mind-state). I know Thanissaro Bhikku's style is considerably more active in that you explicitly alter the breath in order to calm the body and mind. I think that's a valid way to go about it, though I personally find that approach tends to make me more agitated. What he translates as "bodily/mental fabrication" I think is better rendered "the activity of the body/mind" (this is what Rupert Gethin has in his translations). On a similar note, Bhikku Bodhi renders "focusing on relinquishment" as "observing relinquishment." (Likewise, anywhere Thanissaro has "focusing on", he has "observing." Gethin has "watching." The distinction is subtle, but I like the to have as many options to look at as possible.)

    How I interpret this is that you simply respond to what is naturally arising in experience in a way that doesn't create more agitation or entanglement -- in a way that, yes, calms what arises, but doesn't necessarily chase after calm as an end in itself. It's a dynamic, moment-to-moment, responsive process. The calm, bliss, rapture, etc. will occur naturally as a result of continually responding in this way. I think this isn't much different from what you're saying, but I find this distinction important because earlier in my practice, I would work myself into knots trying to contrive relaxation or bliss or rapture through a direct act of will, when indirect measure were more effective. It would also send my into a tizzy of evaluating my current mind-state, comparing it with other meditations or with a five moments ago, and asking myself: "Am I relaxed yet?" Ajahn Brahm uses a nice little simile of the cup to convey this idea.

    I forget who, but I think there is at least one translator who uses "bodily/mental conditioner" (referring to the breath) in lieu of "fabrication" or "activity." To me, what the Buddha is pointing to here is that the mind responds to the body and the body responds to the mind. An unpleasant physical sensation will often lead the mind into reactivity, and likewise the body will tend to churn up agitation and discomfort in response to unpleasant thoughts. To me, the Buddha is saying that the breath can become your reminder that any mental reactivity or bodily reactivity can cease. You can refocus on the here-and-now experience of breathing. This is naturally calming and satisfying to the mind and body.
    Invincible_summerkarmabluesmisecmisc1
  • how to interpret bliss?

    like this

    "........"
    Glow
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    And where does a thought evaluating a thought lie in this ontology of the ground of being? We all come to meditation with hopes and fears for its effects. Why not fashion them into something useful to the path?
    A thought evaluating a thought is just a thought evaluating a thought. The mahayana takes everything as path and the blessing of the lineage rather than trying to get a certain function. The confidence is in the clarity of mind and the penny eventually drops. No particular analysis is the ground of being. Rather the qualities of mind: openness, clarity, and sensitiivity are the ground. You can find this in the pali sutras I think. They refer to it as smirti (openness), virya, samadhi, prajna, and sradda. Prajna and sradda are sensitivity, a balance. Virya and samadhi, are clarity, a balance.
    Until all fabrication is released, it's very hard to say what's "authentic experience." Transcendent right effort/view does not involve preferences and prejudices, but the path to that is to understand the causes and conditions of suffering and, through this understanding, release them. To step off this path is wrong effort. In principle you can develop this understanding by simple observation, but it's much faster and more direct (especially in the beginning) to tamper with the causes and conditions, evaluate the effects, and establish better conditions if they lead to better effects.

    I agree that there is no room for evaluation at the point of release, no evaluation prescribed in the Bahiya sutta instructions for instance. But how many of us are at the point of release? I've been there, but so much karma gets in the way of that. What we're talking about in this thread is undoing that obstructive karma and replacing it with something more conducive to awakening. There is plenty of room for critical evaluation from this perspective.
    I think that I don't know what you are talking about because I am not studying what you are studying. I understand fabrication, but I would just sit with fabrications which can be a stability because you are not rejecting fabrications rather you are allowing to be there. By authentic experience I mean in the present I guess and welcoming everything. You just return to the breath when you notice a fabrication like you are welcoming a guest but have to attend to something else and break off from them. I don't know what you mean by 'point of release' that is not talked about from my teacher. I haven't seen karma getting in the way so I cannot comment on your experience.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    A thought evaluating a thought is just a thought evaluating a thought. The mahayana takes everything as path and the blessing of the lineage rather than trying to get a certain function. The confidence is in the clarity of mind and the penny eventually drops. No particular analysis is the ground of being. Rather the qualities of mind: openness, clarity, and sensitiivity are the ground. You can find this in the pali sutras I think. They refer to it as smirti (openness), virya, samadhi, prajna, and sradda. Prajna and sradda are sensitivity, a balance. Virya and samadhi, are clarity, a balance.

    No, this is a Mahayana innovation. I don't have a problem with it as such (I think of myself as a Tibetan Buddhist doing hinayana practice at the moment, and I have extensive experience with the way you're thinking. Love Trungpa's writings.), it's just not relevant to what we were discussing in this thread.

    Sanskrit=Pali
    smirti=sati
    virya=viriya
    samadhi=samadhi
    prajna=panna
    sradda=saddha

    These are known as the five faculties. Sati means mindfulness, the ability to keep something in mind. Not quite the opposite to openness, but at least orthogonal to the concept. Panna means wisdom, discernment, very different to sensitivity or balance (whatever that means in this context, it's a bit ambiguous). Saddha is faith, conviction; very different to sensitivity or balance. Viriya is persistence, energy, vigor, effort. Samadhi you already know: concentration. At least in Thanissaro's interpretation, they are qualities to be developed, not independent ontological realities.
    ...conviction, the first member of the set of five faculties, leads naturally to persistence, the second. Persistence here is equal to right exertion, which develops mindfulness as the most essential skillful quality in the mind. As we saw under the frames of reference, the proper development of mindfulness leads to concentration, or the four jhanas, while the jhanas provide the foundation for the arising of discernment, the fifth and final member of this set. When discernment is strengthened to the point of transcendence, leading to the attainment of stream-entry, it then confirms the truths that were previously taken as a matter of conviction and faith [§74]. This confirmation feeds back into the causal loop, strengthening conviction, which provides the basis for developing the faculties still further until Arahantship is attained.
    Jeffrey said:

    I haven't seen karma getting in the way so I cannot comment on your experience.

    If you go looking for it, you never know what you might find. :)

    The kind of karma I'm talking about is the detachment reaction I speculated about in this guy's case. Basically, stuff we don't see because we don't want to look at it. (The unconscious in modern psychological terms.)

    I think the world would be a better place today if Trungpa had left fewer stones of this sort unturned.
  • Glow said:

    (Likewise, anywhere Thanissaro has "focusing on", he has "observing." Gethin has "watching." The distinction is subtle, but I like the to have as many options to look at as possible.)

    I agree, these are all useful interpretations.
    Glow said:

    I forget who, but I think there is at least one translator who uses "bodily/mental conditioner" (referring to the breath) in lieu of "fabrication" or "activity."

    I came across this recently in Buddhadasa's book on anapanasati. I like this translation, too.
  • maartenmaarten Veteran
    @Sabre
    I find it better not to use the word concentration in meditation, because the usual way we use the word has not much to do with meditation.
    I usually use the term concentration to indicate that I am focusing my attention (on my work for example) and that I can choose to keep my focus there (for some time) or to move it away.
    Does this correspond to what you mean by "the usual way" of using the word? What do you think is - in general - the difference between "the usual way" of using the word concentration and the way it is used in the context of meditation?

    @Glow
    Ajahn Brahm uses a nice little simile of the cup to convey this idea.
    Thanks for posting that, it seems really useful. Ajahn Brahm is using this simile to differentiate between right and wrong meditation, isn't he? (Not to say that wrong meditation is worthless)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2013
    fivebells said:

    Jeffrey said:

    A thought evaluating a thought is just a thought evaluating a thought. The mahayana takes everything as path and the blessing of the lineage rather than trying to get a certain function. The confidence is in the clarity of mind and the penny eventually drops. No particular analysis is the ground of being. Rather the qualities of mind: openness, clarity, and sensitiivity are the ground. You can find this in the pali sutras I think. They refer to it as smirti (openness), virya, samadhi, prajna, and sradda. Prajna and sradda are sensitivity, a balance. Virya and samadhi, are clarity, a balance.

    No, this is a Mahayana innovation. I don't have a problem with it as such (I think of myself as a Tibetan Buddhist doing hinayana practice at the moment, and I have extensive experience with the way you're thinking. Love Trungpa's writings.), it's just not relevant to what we were discussing in this thread.

    Sanskrit=Pali
    smirti=sati
    virya=viriya
    samadhi=samadhi
    prajna=panna
    sradda=saddha

    These are known as the five faculties. Sati means mindfulness, the ability to keep something in mind. Not quite the opposite to openness, but at least orthogonal to the concept. Panna means wisdom, discernment, very different to sensitivity or balance (whatever that means in this context, it's a bit ambiguous). Saddha is faith, conviction; very different to sensitivity or balance. Viriya is persistence, energy, vigor, effort. Samadhi you already know: concentration. At least in Thanissaro's interpretation, they are qualities to be developed, not independent ontological realities.
    not as my teacher teaches...they are the awareness, bodhicitta, nature of mind, true self, tathagarbagotra, etc.. You can find this in Rigdzin Shikpo's book Clarity openness and sensitivity
    ...conviction, the first member of the set of five faculties, leads naturally to persistence, the second. Persistence here is equal to right exertion, which develops mindfulness as the most essential skillful quality in the mind. As we saw under the frames of reference, the proper development of mindfulness leads to concentration, or the four jhanas, while the jhanas provide the foundation for the arising of discernment, the fifth and final member of this set. When discernment is strengthened to the point of transcendence, leading to the attainment of stream-entry, it then confirms the truths that were previously taken as a matter of conviction and faith [§74]. This confirmation feeds back into the causal loop, strengthening conviction, which provides the basis for developing the faculties still further until Arahantship is attained.
    Jeffrey said:

    I haven't seen karma getting in the way so I cannot comment on your experience.

    If you go looking for it, you never know what you might find. :)

    maybe. but Sogyal Rinpoche says that you are looking for the nature of mind which is always there. So the penny drops along with the (aided by) upadesha pointing out instructions of the guru

    The kind of karma I'm talking about is the detachment reaction I speculated about in this guy's case. Basically, stuff we don't see because we don't want to look at it. (The unconscious in modern psychological terms.)

    I think the world would be a better place today if Trungpa had left fewer stones of this sort unturned.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @fivebells, I think we have seen that the OP is interested in the approach of others than myself, thus I will not respond to more posts and divert the thread. Feel free to make a new thread, but I think neither one of us is going to delve into a 'reading list' provided. At least I am not going to do that. I will spend my time to find out what my tradition is doing and then from that point I will see other traditions. Even within TB if you follow 2 or more it can be confusing because terms are defined differently all down the line. In TB I am thinking of the rangtong shentong divide.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2013
    maarten said:

    @Sabre

    I find it better not to use the word concentration in meditation, because the usual way we use the word has not much to do with meditation.
    I usually use the term concentration to indicate that I am focusing my attention (on my work for example) and that I can choose to keep my focus there (for some time) or to move it away.
    Does this correspond to what you mean by "the usual way" of using the word? What do you think is - in general - the difference between "the usual way" of using the word concentration and the way it is used in the context of meditation?


    Consider it like this: When people ask you to concentrate, do you think like "Yes! Thank you for letting me?".. probably not. It's more like they give you a job. But samadhi (the word often translated as concentration) is nice and peaceful, and easy because it arises without you having to do anything.

    Or we say "concentrate on the breath". In the suttas samadhi is not used like that.
    Jeffreymaarten
  • No worries, @Jeffrey. And I agree, the terminology can be confusing, and I have no problem with the TB terms. I'm just saying it's a highly heterodox translation of the Pali from the Theravadin perspective, and I don't know how to justify it in terms of the usage in the Pali canon.
    Jeffrey
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    maarten said:


    @Glow

    Ajahn Brahm uses a nice little simile of the cup to convey this idea.
    Thanks for posting that, it seems really useful. Ajahn Brahm is using this simile to differentiate between right and wrong meditation, isn't he? (Not to say that wrong meditation is worthless)
    You could say that, although I tend not to think in terms of "right" vs. "wrong" because that doesn't convey very much about the "why" of it.
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    fivebells said:

    Glow said:

    (Likewise, anywhere Thanissaro has "focusing on", he has "observing." Gethin has "watching." The distinction is subtle, but I like the to have as many options to look at as possible.)

    I agree, these are all useful interpretations.
    Glow said:

    I forget who, but I think there is at least one translator who uses "bodily/mental conditioner" (referring to the breath) in lieu of "fabrication" or "activity."

    I came across this recently in Buddhadasa's book on anapanasati. I like this translation, too.
    Buddhadasa's book is probably where I saw it. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember it had a big impact on the way I interpreted that sutta.
  • I think it's interesting that Buddhadasa believes that the anapanasati tetrads must be developed in the order they're presented in the sutta, while Thanissaro believes that one should jump around between them as needed. (Haven't come to that part in Buddhadasa's book, yet, I heard it from someone who's practiced his method.)
    Invincible_summerGlow
  • maartenmaarten Veteran
    I tried to put the "simile of the cup" by Ajahn Brahm into practice and I noticed that a lot of urges to improve my posture were actually forms of picking up the cup. I ended up having quite a nice meditation with a slouching posture :-). I will definitely try it again.
    Invincible_summerGlow
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    fivebells said:

    I think it's interesting that Buddhadasa believes that the anapanasati tetrads must be developed in the order they're presented in the sutta, while Thanissaro believes that one should jump around between them as needed. (Haven't come to that part in Buddhadasa's book, yet, I heard it from someone who's practiced his method.)

    Yeah, different teachers have come to different conclusions about whether the instructions are meant to be sequential or concurrent. Buddhadasa outlines the practice in steps. In practicing it myself, though, I can't help but jump between them depending on what becomes most noticeable during the meditation. Everything is so closely connected.
    Invincible_summer
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