Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I say yes to letting whatever happens happen, because that is what is going to happen.
I think that the key part of your belief system is the importance that you place on knowledge. If this is true, then not only should you dabble in Buddhism and Hinduism, but anything else that interests you. My religion bookshelf is 50% Buddhist literature and 50% anything else I can get my hands on; Bibles, Qurans, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita and Ramayana, The Tao of Pooh, and on and on like that. I would recommend investing in a book on world religions.
It has been my experience that when someone focuses intently on one specific teacher's views of one specific sect of one specific religion, that person becomes unwaveringly (sometimes violently) certain that her/his view is the only correct view. Whereas, someone who opens her/his mind to knowledge finds so many interwoven threads that it is nearly impossible to believe that we are not all connected in a deeper way than we could possibly understand.
I say keep doing what you're doing, because you're doing it well.
I didn't say you were. I just quoted the teacher that brought Vaisnavism to the west. Are you saying that there are Vaisnav teachers who do not think that Buddhists are 'rascals?' I would be curious to contact them..
There is a difference between discussing the differences & similarities between practices and being a bully.
You're, more or less, doing the latter.
The fact that you are confused makes clarity sound like bullying. The fact is you are stuck. You cant s**t and you cant get off the pot. Or to borrow another analogy you want to have your cake and eat it too. That makes you feel vulnerable.
0
DaftChrisSpiritually conflicted. Not of this world.Veteran
I didn't say you were. I just quoted the teacher that brought Vaisnavism to the west. Are you saying that there are Vaisnav teachers who do not think that Buddhists are 'rascals?' I would be curious to contact them..
There is a difference between discussing the differences & similarities between practices and being a bully.
You're, more or less, doing the latter.
The fact that you are confused makes clarity sound like bullying. The fact is you are stuck. You cant s**t and you cant get off the pot. Or to borrow another analogy you want to have your cake and eat it too. That makes you feel vulnerable.
Granted, being a seeker can make one question what they truly believe, but that doesn't make me "vulnerable". At least, not in the way you might think.
I'm not scared because of confusion. I'm not scared of this situation at all. I'm simply questioning and trying to find my own place in life. As shocking as it is, not everyone who tries multiple beliefs or practices is some new age hippie who doesn't know anything about the practices themselves. I'm not an expert, but I would like to think I know a few things here and there.
And, yes, you were being a bully. Or, to be more appropriate, antagonistic in a passive-aggressive fashion.
I said that you are confused. That is obvious to the most casual observer. That makes you vulnerable. You brought 'scared' into the equation. I didn't. None of us can find our own way. Its a gyp. Its a recipe for still posting to forums in 30 years time still stuck between stools. Why not pick a teacher..one that has a pedigree..Buddhist or Hindu and sit at her/his feet for five years and then tell us what you think. Running from book to another and one video to another and one forum to another and one opinion to another must be exausting. If it isn't now, it will be.
Must of us aren't posting to forums saying that they are 'torn'. Telling people that the way to stop being torn is to stay conflicted would not be compassionate.
0
DaftChrisSpiritually conflicted. Not of this world.Veteran
"We cannot live in a world that is not our own, in a world that is interpreted for us by others. An interpreted world is not a home. Part of the terror is to take back our own listening, to use our own voice, to see our own light." -- Hildegard von Bingen
@DaftChris, I am a Hindu by birth. While I found quite a lot of beauty and wisdom in that religion, I eventually made my way to Buddhism. I found beauty and wisdom there, too, of a different variety. I rejected them both and yet still study both.
My advice to you would be to ally yourself with no one. Instead, go into the world and study it. Do what the Buddha did. What Jesus did. What Nietzsche did. What Meister Eckhart and Gurdjief did. You will never be satisfied with other people's answers. Never. See our human plight on this lonely planet. Study nature. Read biographies and nonfiction. Study science. See our fellow creatures, companions in this minute corner of the universe. See what it is we do and observe the workings of the mind in response to this. Ask yourself where the rain ends and where you begin. In Les Miserables, Victor Hugo writes: “There is one spectacle grander than the sea, that is the sky; there is one spectacle grander than the sky, that is the interior of the soul.” By soul, Hugo does not mean the metaphysical soul, but the human spirit, the consciousness that can contemplate and contain potentialities and impressions of the Heavens and Earth.
I disagree. Everyone, no matter what religion, finds his or her own path. We each bring to our practice a learning history, temperament, inclinations, and a life climate that interacts with the teachings we come across in very personal and particular ways. There is no such thing as following anyone else. You can't. We're on different planets. You can't follow your teacher. Your teacher can only send you text messages to advise you along your own route.
OK. What are you seeking? Really need to know in order to perhaps, just perhaps, suggest something helpful.
Knowledge.
A path to self-realization.
Perhaps inner-peace.
Understood
You are already on the path of knowledge. You are finding that flitting, dabbling, exploring is fine to increase knowledge and experience . . . However for self-realization you are going to have to focus and relax into. In alchemy this is known as coagulate and dissolve. In Sufism it is known as drinking deeply from one well (of knowledge) In Hinduism it is devotion to a deity (or principle). In Dharma it is right effort and concentration. You can still dabble and flit but you also need to, in the words of Captain Picard:
@robot How is anyone here supposed to determine who is an elder, and who isn't, who has more experience and who has less, and so on? And not to mention, how to rate all those things among different traditions and cultures? Just because someone is older or even more experienced, doesn't mean (in our culture) that they cannot be questioned. One should always speak to others, elders or not, with respect. But unfailingly being devoted to someone just because they are older isn't something I personally recommend. It removes, I think, an important aspect of the teaching circle. My children teach me just as much as I try to teach them. That wouldn't happen so much if I kept things at a level where they just flat out had to respect and take what I said as gospel and they were not allowed to participate or question.
Yes. Of course they can be questioned. That is quite clear. I'm sure that most of us know that @Citta is an experienced practitioner since he has studied under several of the preeminent teachers of our times. At least one of which has been dead for decades. So it is not a question of who knows what about who in this case. As I said, in this internet culture the young challenge the older and more experienced without hesitation. I was simply expressing my wonder at that because I don't see it so much in the world. There are skippers and there are deckhands. It's pretty cut and dried. I have fished for 37 seasons. I have a friend who is 93 and fished for 65 years. You better believe I listen with respect when he talks about fishing. He has lived through cycles that I will likely never see. Sometimes it makes sense to listen carefully rather than challenge. There is more to be gained. On the other hand, my son could teach me all day about music or computers if I had the brains to understand it.
@DaftChris No, I did not mean to sound passive aggressive. At least I don't think I did. Anyway, I have read a lot of your stuff and I respect you. Sorry for going off topic on your thread. I really can't comment on your OP since I know little about Hinduism.
In specific cases, yes, we are aware. I meant more in general where it seems unfair to expect everyone to act according to stats on people we don't really know. I think it's always good to step back when we feel a strong reaction to something and ask why that is. It's good to pay attention to those we know are more experienced and learned, and really listen to what they say. I don't disagree with you there by any means. Your comment just came across a little bit as a "how dare someone question an elder" and I see now that that was not what you intended. The internet is an interesting place for sure, and it's always good to consider how we would react to the words/suggestions/advice of the person if they were given in person rather than on the internet.
"We cannot live in a world that is not our own, in a world that is interpreted for us by others. An interpreted world is not a home. Part of the terror is to take back our own listening, to use our own voice, to see our own light." -- Hildegard von Bingen
@DaftChris, I am a Hindu by birth. While I found quite a lot of beauty and wisdom in that religion, I eventually made my way to Buddhism. I found beauty and wisdom there, too, of a different variety. I rejected them both and yet still study both.
My advice to you would be to ally yourself with no one. Instead, go into the world and study it. Do what the Buddha did. What Jesus did. What Nietzsche did. What Meister Eckhart and Gurdjief did. You will never be satisfied with other people's answers. Never. See our human plight on this lonely planet. Study nature. Read biographies and nonfiction. Study science. See our fellow creatures, companions in this minute corner of the universe. See what it is we do and observe the workings of the mind in response to this. Ask yourself where the rain ends and where you begin. In Les Miserables, Victor Hugo writes: “There is one spectacle grander than the sea, that is the sky; there is one spectacle grander than the sky, that is the interior of the soul.” By soul, Hugo does not mean the metaphysical soul, but the human spirit, the consciousness that can contemplate and contain potentialities and impressions of the Heavens and Earth.
Ah yes the 'monkeys and Shakepeare ' method... The trouble is that infinite monkeys on their infinite type writers never actually produce a sonnet. The idea that by observing nature and waxing poetic we can lift ourselves by our own bootstraps in a conspicuous failure. From our conception to our death the idea of ourselves as independent agents is a mere thrashing about in the dark. If we were responsible for our own growth in the womb no one would be born...just the occasional ear or lump of flesh. If we had to breath consciously we would die every time we slept. We are absolutely interdependent with everything else. Absolutely dependent on a universe over which we have only the tiniest amount of control. We come into the world with no control over the process and most of us leave the same way. And the actual freedom we have in between is limited And we would not make our way out of the thicket without the guides who have blazed the trail. No one on his forum no matter how clever could have come up with D.O by logic alone, or in fact at all. It took a special kind of genius. We live short lives like meteors flashing across the sky. But fortunately we still live in an era where the Great Ones are still among us. Kaliyuga is still relatively young. If we can lay aside our childish idea of our autonomy and submit to a real teacher we can still transcend the age. But we have to lay aside pride and the illusions of independence and get real about our situation.
A simple exercise to prepare us for the reality of our actual situation. Adopt your usual posture for meditation. Breath in and out smoothly until the breath calms. Then instead of holding the thought that we are breathing..see instead that the universe is breathing us.. That our in- breath is the universes out -breath, and that our out -breath simply returns the breath home. We are a temporary conduit being breathed by the vasty spaces between the stars..
"We cannot live in a world that is not our own, in a world that is interpreted for us by others. An interpreted world is not a home. Part of the terror is to take back our own listening, to use our own voice, to see our own light." -- Hildegard von Bingen
@DaftChris, I am a Hindu by birth. While I found quite a lot of beauty and wisdom in that religion, I eventually made my way to Buddhism. I found beauty and wisdom there, too, of a different variety. I rejected them both and yet still study both.
My advice to you would be to ally yourself with no one. Instead, go into the world and study it. Do what the Buddha did. What Jesus did. What Nietzsche did. What Meister Eckhart and Gurdjief did. You will never be satisfied with other people's answers. Never. See our human plight on this lonely planet. Study nature. Read biographies and nonfiction. Study science. See our fellow creatures, companions in this minute corner of the universe. See what it is we do and observe the workings of the mind in response to this. Ask yourself where the rain ends and where you begin. In Les Miserables, Victor Hugo writes: “There is one spectacle grander than the sea, that is the sky; there is one spectacle grander than the sky, that is the interior of the soul.” By soul, Hugo does not mean the metaphysical soul, but the human spirit, the consciousness that can contemplate and contain potentialities and impressions of the Heavens and Earth.
Ah yes the 'monkeys and Shakepeare ' method... The trouble is that infinite monkeys on their infinite type writers never actually produce a sonnet. The idea that by observing nature and waxing poetic we can lift ourselves by our own bootstraps in a conspicuous failure. From our conception to our death the idea of ourselves as independent agents is a mere thrashing about in the dark. If we were responsible for our own growth in the womb no one would be born...just the occasional ear or lump of flesh. If we had to breath consciously we would die every time we slept. We are absolutely interdependent with everything else. Absolutely dependent on a universe over which we have only the tiniest amount of control. We come into the world with no control over the process and most of us leave the same way. And the actual freedom we have in between is limited And we would not make our way out of the thicket without the guides who have blazed the trail. No one on his forum no matter how clever could have come up with D.O by logic alone, or in fact at all. It took a special kind of genius. We live short lives like meteors flashing across the sky. But fortunately we still live in an era where the Great Ones are still among us. Kaliyuga is still relatively young. If we can lay aside our childish idea of our autonomy and submit to a real teacher we can still transcend the age. But we have to lay aside pride and the illusions of independence and get real about our situation.
If you took the time to actually read what you've just replied to, you would see you've just wasted a lot of words deconstructing a puerile little straw man.
0
DaftChrisSpiritually conflicted. Not of this world.Veteran
I've looked over this thread, read the comments (advice and otherwise) and I think I'm going to identify as neither Buddhist or Hindu...at least for the time being.
I love the Dharma and will continue to apply it in my life (compassion, awareness, temple visits, meditation etc.), but I don't think I need a label as of yet. The truth is, I was so concerned over the exterior of my practice that, in many ways, I nearly forgot about the interior. I was so caught up in the labels of what it meant to be Buddhist or Hindu that I almost forgot it was about the practice and not the name.
Hinduism for it's wisdom and devotion; Buddhism for it's path to inner-awareness and knowledge. These are both things that I will continue to find inspiration from, but I need to have some time to myself before I end up settling on one path or the other. That is, if I even end up choosing a path. Otherwise I'll end up going crazy and just burn out.
In the end, regardless if I choose Buddhism over Hinduism (or vice versa), it doesn't matter what religion I label myself. What matters is that I practice it to the best of my abilities and continue the search for knowledge.
Maybe the problem is one of interpretation. It is possible to interpret Hunduism so as to make it equivalent with Buddhism in all its essentials. And it's possible to interpret them as being seriously at odds with each other. If we see tham as equivalent, as I do, then a lot of this discussion seems very odd. I'm not sure how one could be torn between two religions that say basically the same thing, unless one prefers the rituals and practices of one over the other. Same for Christianty, Taoism, Theosophy, Stoicism, Manicheism, Jainism and others. The differences are important, but at a deep level the differences can usually be seen to evaporate.
It would be very strange if all the various religions that are centered on self-examination and the search for truth ended up disagreeing with each other.
Only if you assume the absence of objective truth. And the Buddha certainly did not make that assumption. He described his Dharma as the ekayana ayam maggo ..." the only way " to lead to Awakening. Now this is an affront to all of to all of those who have conditioned by a culture that values only the relative. We assume that he couldn't really have said that..or if he did he didn't mean it. But, it seems to be authentic as anything else that he is recorded as saying..and the meaning in context is unambiguous. We would prefer to substitute our own idea of the Buddha which conforms more to a multi-cultural and relativistic pov. But facts are awkward things.
Well, no, I do not assume the absence of truth. I assume that the religions I mentioned have all found truth and can be syncretised if only we can find our way through all the contingent clutter. I'm not one of those pesky post-modernists. There is only one mysticism in my opinion.
When I read ekayana ayam maggo I find it consistent with the idea that the ony way is through Jesus or Mohammed, as is so often claimed. It's the same 'way'. If they seem to differ then it is difficult to show that this is not just a matter of interpretation. It would be a daft situation if all the prophets and sages did not converge on the truth. Religious practices would become implausible as a means of investigating truth.
I would agree that many people seem to prefer a relativistic approach that allows them to maintain their preconceptions and avoid any uncomfortable facts. But I'm a fundamentalist.
I agree ( with qualifications ) @Florian. My basic position is that there may be many paths. I am quite sure for example that Thomas Merton hit the motherlode where words fail, while following a contemplative Christian path. I think that we as individuals can only walk one path however with any chance of success, and even that is tough.
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
One path for sure, and each to his own, but does this means one method? Can the individual's path not wander a little between Buddhism and Hinduism?
I've tried to see this in a number of ways and for me, the only way it works is to add a sprinkle of Taoism. Instead of Brahman, it would be the nameless and we would be the infinite carnations of Vishnu (divide a whole by three and we have an infinite stream)
For me, this kind of pondering is good for entertainment purposes mainly and not worth losing sleep over.
I suppose the inner guru is what we all aspire to find. The OP was a similar story as mine. The fact that there was confusion, am I this or that, brought me to the conclusion that what I thought was an inner guru was merely ego.
Could it be that your feeling to move away from Hinduism is because the fanciful aspect of Hinduism wearing away? Instead of it being a Hindu path, it became just a path - the anthropological study ended. Just something to think on - I apologize if my speculation over stepped.
For me the concept of surrendering seemed to be a skillful way of dealing with my karmic manifestations. I feel a greater responsibility, it as no longer study - it is not a child's curiosity.
DaftChris, I please don't take this rudely... But do you even know what you want? Because back earlier this year you changed your practice towards Hinduism, it was the greatest thing ever, and you were at home, we all wished you well and were happy for you because you were a whole lot happier... What exactly is it that you are looking for? Are you one of those people, again don't take this rudely while I realize it's quite blunt, that can go sit in on a few Surahs at a Mosque with a few Imams and the "truth" suddenly come to you, substitute that with Catholicism, Judaism, Mormonism, what have you? Because I have so many close friends that literally make the rounds, and the dont know what it is they are looking for...
@JosephW - you may not mean it rudely, but it's come out as very condescending.
One thing I _DO_ know for sure in life, words, once spoken can never be taken back or unheard. Right Speech encompasses thinking before we speak. When it comes to online interactions, I have found the best success when I type, wait a few minutes, re read it and if it sounds at all confrontational or condescending/rude/aggressive, delete or edit it.
You could call it "dabbling". I call it trying to find my spiritual home and me being called by two wonderful traditions. I'm not orthodox in anyway shape or form, but I don't want to make a mockery of any practice.
Now that's strange I was under the impression that this forum was called 'New Buddhist..' Had I known that it was actually ' New A Little Bit Of Anything You Fancy Because Its All Nonsense Anyway ' I would have looked elsewhere.
But isn't the nature of Buddhism to find one's own path? And didn't the Buddha allegedly say to not believe in anything just because you are told? To seek truth for yourself?
Also, there are many Buddhists who so believe in souls and rebirth which very closely resembles reincarnation. Are they practicing a system that they "do not yet have a handle on"? Do they "reject" it, because some of theirs might be unorthodox?
Yes, because if a certain guy hadn't been open-minded, instead of thinking he already had all the answers, there wouldn't be such a thing as Buddhism.
When it comes to online interactions, I have found the best success when I type, wait a few minutes, re read it and if it sounds at all confrontational or condescending/rude/aggressive, delete or edit it.
In Metta, Raven
The sweetness of your genuine nature is asserting itself. Sadly that is both paternal and condescending sounding. Quite rudely and even aggressively I choose to confront you and others with that possibility.
In a similar way describing or bringing attention or exposing our foibles/being reflected in others, is part of the potential benefits of our interaction.
Wether it is right to edit/delete/opinionate/express our being . . . gently does it, sometimes very directly
When it comes to online interactions, I have found the best success when I type, wait a few minutes, re read it and if it sounds at all confrontational or condescending/rude/aggressive, delete or edit it.
In Metta, Raven
The sweetness of your genuine nature is asserting itself. Sadly that is both paternal and condescending sounding. Quite rudely and even aggressively I choose to confront you and others with that possibility.
In a similar way describing or bringing attention or exposing our foibles/being reflected in others, is part of the potential benefits of our interaction.
Wether it is right to edit/delete/opinionate/express our being . . . gently does it, sometimes very directly
:bowdown:
Sorry @lobster, in your genuinely confusing nature I have no idea if you are being cryptic, confronting or otherwise. I find it interesting though that you would equate paternal with condescending. Knowing I am neither male or condescending *shrugs*
I think though that the real issue is, perhaps I have unwittingly touched a sore point? I've been known to do that. I'm sorry if you feel that way.
If my experience is a guide, I cannot say one orthodox path works for me yet, either. I am more comfortable with Buddhism than any other path, but have not yet settled on one tradition.
So, from what I read, I can simply offer this: do not get down on yourself if you grow into something (detailed path wise) other than what you follow now. Simply accept what you grow into down the line as being for then (in future) with the option of changing yet again. Accept the option, think of a budding lily, it opens over time. So do we flower into full path following over time (a series of nows, if you prefer, but many more than one). that is where I am now.
I think though that the real issue is, perhaps I have unwittingly touched a sore point? I've been known to do that. I'm sorry if you feel that way
Gosh.
No need to feel sorry. Acute miscommunication. You may remember the posting about how if a negative way to find a benign posting exists we will find it. You have indeed made me sore, what I said was meant very kindly. :bawl:
DaftChris, I please don't take this rudely... But do you even know what you want? Because back earlier this year you changed your practice towards Hinduism, it was the greatest thing ever, and you were at home, we all wished you well and were happy for you because you were a whole lot happier... What exactly is it that you are looking for? Are you one of those people, again don't take this rudely while I realize it's quite blunt, that can go sit in on a few Surahs at a Mosque with a few Imams and the "truth" suddenly come to you, substitute that with Catholicism, Judaism, Mormonism, what have you? Because I have so many close friends that literally make the rounds, and the dont know what it is they are looking for...
Do I know what I want? Well, yes...and no. If I knew 100%, I wouldn't be trying to seek a path that I believe best fits me.
I'm trying to find a religious path which would best share what my ethics and beliefs already are. A community to share my growth with. A place where I can share my ideals and try to promote compassion, mindfulness, and social justice.
Yes, I recall that particular thread. Yes, I recall stating how great it was and how happy I was with it. No, I'm not one of those people who go to a couple of services and claim a religion as my own. If you find other threads I've commented on, I've stated that, after I entered college, I left my "angry atheist" phase and began exploring religion again. This was about 4 yeas ago. 4 years of studying different faiths, talking to practitioners, trying to live out their respective ethical codes, and going to services.
When I came to Hinduism, I spent about a year studying it before "claiming" it. I studied the different Devas, the concepts of our relationship with God (dualism and non-dualism), the different swamis and saints, what the rituals represent, the problems found within Hinduism (the caste system, nationalism, etc.), and so on and so forth. I didn't go to one service and just go "Oh my God, I love Shiva. He's awesome! Let me don a bindi, go vegetarian and appropriate everything from their religion and culture!".
After a few months, 4 years of what I have been looking for came flooding back, and I realized a few things.
1.) I burned out of ritual. When I first adopted Buddhism, I wanted the external trappings. Statues, malas, incense, bells, etc. The same can be said when it came to Hinduism. After a while, I discovered that living out the philosophies (of both practices; or just Dharma in general) where more important than chanting, bowing, or praying for a good rebirth in Pure Land. It just honestly took me a while to realize all this. As much as I would have protested this in the beginning, a more secular approach to Dharma fits me better than a religious one. I still will read the Dharsanas, Sutras, Gita, and Dhammapada; but more as inspirations to apply to how I live, rather than strictly religious manuals.
2.) When it comes to the Devas and Boddhisattvas, I never viewed them as literally real. Just simply representations of a greater reality (what I refer to as God). If I never viewed them as real, then why pray to them or worship them as if they were? Why continue to worship Shiva, Krishna or Ganesha if I don't believe they individually exist? Going back to being burned out by ritual, it came to a point where said rituals became pointless. They simply became ends to justify the means, rather than a means of focus in my practice. This also goes for Buddhist ritual.
3.) I 100% believe in God, but I had leftover baggage from when I was a Christian when it came to the concept of monotheism. I thought that going down a polytheistic route made more sense and would separate me from the God-concept in which I was raised in. Now I realize, since I view devas and other deities as representations of one source, that I am technically a monotheist after all. There is nothing wrong with believing in one source and it just took me a while to figure that out. Although, I would still say that I'm more of a Pan(en)theist than a traditional monotheist.
I hope this clarified a few things. I no longer believe in the rituals and other trappings of either Hinduism or Buddhism; but I still believe that they offer much philosophical inspiration and personal truth. I can also finally admit that I really only believe in one source of being. I'm still on my search for a path to call my own, but I think I'm just going to keep it to myself for the time being.
I burned out of ritual. When I first adopted Buddhism, I wanted the external trappings. Statues, malas, incense, bells, etc. The same can be said when it came to Hinduism. After a while, I discovered that living out the philosophies (of both practices; or just Dharma in general) where more important than chanting, bowing, or praying for a good rebirth in Pure Land. It just honestly took me a while to realize all this.
I can relate. Sometimes when adopting a philosophy one can get caught up in the externals and trappings. Sometimes some of us are easily swayed and influenced by what others say and do. I certainly experienced it. Now I think this is really unnecessary. I'm still guilty of it, and I do consider it a source of attachment. That is, I still have my "altar" and my statues, though the altar is in a no more sacred place than any of the other little "shrines" I have all over the house. I just think the statues and pictures are pretty. Though occasionally I light candles and incense, ring a bell, and place offerings of water and rarely, fruit at the altar. But again, it's really no more sacred than anywhere else in the house. All of this aids in mindfulness of staying on track. I even have a tiny set of Amitabha Buddha, Mahasthamaprapta and Avalokitesvara on my desk at work.
As much as I would have protested this in the beginning, a more secular approach to Dharma fits me better than a religious one. I still will read the Dharsanas, Sutras, Gita, and Dhammapada; but more as inspirations to apply to how I live, rather than strictly religious manuals. ...
I no longer believe in the rituals and other trappings of either Hinduism or Buddhism; but I still believe that they offer much philosophical inspiration and personal truth.
Unless I miss my guess, that's what it's all about... particularly the 4NT, 8FP, Three Jewels, Six Perfections, Five Precepts.
An Atheist doesn't have to be angry first of all, hell, Atheists are the happiest group (not that they are a group) of people I know aside from Mormons, so you might want to check Mormonism out.......
It kills me when people see a few Atheists's misconduct and group Atheists with attacking, angry, sinful, etc... I have never been as happy as I am since I have turned away from Theism and religion. Sure, I may use some simple Buddhism concepts as sort of a Psycho therapy, but it's just that, I don't simply "believe" anything in Buddhism, I have cherry picked what I want, used them in my life and pushed all the tales and myths and things that require simply believing aside, because in this life Chris, simply believing, faith, whatever you want to call it, is nonsense... Now I know a lot of people that DEEP inside, they know their faith is flawed and probably wrong, but they don't care, it makes them feel warm and cuddly inside and cared about, they aren't strong enough to make it without religion, and it's not their faults, they can be strong enough, I was one of those people as a teen. But I found that much more growth, truth, beauty, and wisdom comes outside of ancient belief systems, religions, cults, holy books, whatever people like turning to for what they think is "security". Well, it may make you feel secure, but I personally don't care about security when I can't think for myself, when I am a prisoner in a set system, a mind control system, and that is exactly what religion is. It's all bull.
Now, me being an A-theist, I will never tell you that there isn't a God, I wouldn't say that. I don't say there isn't a God, I just simply don't get involved in the discussion, however, me personally, I have never experienced anything in my life that would make me believe that there is a God. So my whole point is not necessarily telling you to push away God, for lack of a better word, maybe higher power? But to give up on these religious journeys, because in the end, for the rational mind, it only ends up hurting you.
I just simply don't get involved in the discussion
their faith is flawed and probably wrong, but they don't care, it makes them feel warm and cuddly inside and cared about, they aren't strong enough to make it without religion, and it's not their faults, they can be strong enough, I was one of those people as a teen. But I found that much more growth, truth, beauty, and wisdom comes outside of ancient belief systems, religions, cults, holy books, whatever people like turning to for what they think is "security". Well, it may make you feel secure, but I personally don't care about security when I can't think for myself, when I am a prisoner in a set system, a mind control system, and that is exactly what religion is. It's all bull.
It sounds to me like you are involved in the discussion.
Can you 'believe' or better still know a god that is 0% unreal? A god that transcends existence and non existence? If not you will never understand 100%.
Comments
I think that the key part of your belief system is the importance that you place on knowledge. If this is true, then not only should you dabble in Buddhism and Hinduism, but anything else that interests you. My religion bookshelf is 50% Buddhist literature and 50% anything else I can get my hands on; Bibles, Qurans, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita and Ramayana, The Tao of Pooh, and on and on like that. I would recommend investing in a book on world religions.
It has been my experience that when someone focuses intently on one specific teacher's views of one specific sect of one specific religion, that person becomes unwaveringly (sometimes violently) certain that her/his view is the only correct view. Whereas, someone who opens her/his mind to knowledge finds so many interwoven threads that it is nearly impossible to believe that we are not all connected in a deeper way than we could possibly understand.
I say keep doing what you're doing, because you're doing it well.
The fact is you are stuck. You cant s**t and you cant get off the pot.
Or to borrow another analogy you want to have your cake and eat it too.
That makes you feel vulnerable.
I'm not scared because of confusion. I'm not scared of this situation at all. I'm simply questioning and trying to find my own place in life. As shocking as it is, not everyone who tries multiple beliefs or practices is some new age hippie who doesn't know anything about the practices themselves. I'm not an expert, but I would like to think I know a few things here and there.
And, yes, you were being a bully. Or, to be more appropriate, antagonistic in a passive-aggressive fashion.
None of us can find our own way. Its a gyp. Its a recipe for still posting to forums in 30 years time still stuck between stools.
Why not pick a teacher..one that has a pedigree..Buddhist or Hindu and sit at her/his feet for five years and then tell us what you think.
Running from book to another and one video to another and one forum to another and one opinion to another must be exausting. If it isn't now, it will be.
Especially the people who claim not to be?
Telling people that the way to stop being torn is to stay conflicted would not be compassionate.
That's my plan. To find a teacher and go from there. I just wanted to ask opinions and suggestions from people on this site.
We both want to learn about the ladybug, you say study the ladybug and I say study all the bugs. Would that be a fair analogy?
-- Hildegard von Bingen
@DaftChris, I am a Hindu by birth. While I found quite a lot of beauty and wisdom in that religion, I eventually made my way to Buddhism. I found beauty and wisdom there, too, of a different variety. I rejected them both and yet still study both.
My advice to you would be to ally yourself with no one. Instead, go into the world and study it. Do what the Buddha did. What Jesus did. What Nietzsche did. What Meister Eckhart and Gurdjief did. You will never be satisfied with other people's answers. Never. See our human plight on this lonely planet. Study nature. Read biographies and nonfiction. Study science. See our fellow creatures, companions in this minute corner of the universe. See what it is we do and observe the workings of the mind in response to this. Ask yourself where the rain ends and where you begin. In Les Miserables, Victor Hugo writes: “There is one spectacle grander than the sea, that is the sky; there is one spectacle grander than the sky, that is the interior of the soul.” By soul, Hugo does not mean the metaphysical soul, but the human spirit, the consciousness that can contemplate and contain potentialities and impressions of the Heavens and Earth.
A path to self-realization.
Perhaps inner-peace.
Understood
You are already on the path of knowledge. You are finding that flitting, dabbling, exploring is fine to increase knowledge and experience . . .
However for self-realization you are going to have to focus and relax into. In alchemy this is known as coagulate and dissolve. In Sufism it is known as drinking deeply from one well (of knowledge) In Hinduism it is devotion to a deity (or principle). In Dharma it is right effort and concentration.
You can still dabble and flit but you also need to, in the words of Captain Picard:
"Engage"
Hope that is helpful :wave:
I'm sure that most of us know that @Citta is an experienced practitioner since he has studied under several of the preeminent teachers of our times. At least one of which has been dead for decades. So it is not a question of who knows what about who in this case.
As I said, in this internet culture the young challenge the older and more experienced without hesitation.
I was simply expressing my wonder at that because I don't see it so much in the world.
There are skippers and there are deckhands. It's pretty cut and dried.
I have fished for 37 seasons. I have a friend who is 93 and fished for 65 years. You better believe I listen with respect when he talks about fishing. He has lived through cycles that I will likely never see. Sometimes it makes sense to listen carefully rather than challenge. There is more to be gained.
On the other hand, my son could teach me all day about music or computers if I had the brains to understand it.
@DaftChris
No, I did not mean to sound passive aggressive. At least I don't think I did. Anyway, I have read a lot of your stuff and I respect you.
Sorry for going off topic on your thread. I really can't comment on your OP since I know little about Hinduism.
The trouble is that infinite monkeys on their infinite type writers never actually produce a sonnet.
The idea that by observing nature and waxing poetic we can lift ourselves by our own bootstraps in a conspicuous failure.
From our conception to our death the idea of ourselves as independent agents is a mere thrashing about in the dark. If we were responsible for our own growth in the womb no one would be born...just the occasional ear or lump of flesh.
If we had to breath consciously we would die every time we slept.
We are absolutely interdependent with everything else. Absolutely dependent on a universe over which we have only the tiniest amount of control. We come into the world with no control over the process and most of us leave the same way. And the actual freedom we have in between is limited
And we would not make our way out of the thicket without the guides who have blazed the trail.
No one on his forum no matter how clever could have come up with D.O by logic alone, or in fact at all. It took a special kind of genius.
We live short lives like meteors flashing across the sky.
But fortunately we still live in an era where the Great Ones are still among us.
Kaliyuga is still relatively young.
If we can lay aside our childish idea of our autonomy and submit to a real teacher we can still transcend the age.
But we have to lay aside pride and the illusions of independence and get real about our situation.
Adopt your usual posture for meditation. Breath in and out smoothly until the breath calms.
Then instead of holding the thought that we are breathing..see instead that the universe is breathing us.. That our in- breath is the universes out -breath, and that our out -breath simply returns the breath home.
We are a temporary conduit being breathed by the vasty spaces between the stars..
I love the Dharma and will continue to apply it in my life (compassion, awareness, temple visits, meditation etc.), but I don't think I need a label as of yet. The truth is, I was so concerned over the exterior of my practice that, in many ways, I nearly forgot about the interior. I was so caught up in the labels of what it meant to be Buddhist or Hindu that I almost forgot it was about the practice and not the name.
Hinduism for it's wisdom and devotion; Buddhism for it's path to inner-awareness and knowledge. These are both things that I will continue to find inspiration from, but I need to have some time to myself before I end up settling on one path or the other. That is, if I even end up choosing a path. Otherwise I'll end up going crazy and just burn out.
In the end, regardless if I choose Buddhism over Hinduism (or vice versa), it doesn't matter what religion I label myself. What matters is that I practice it to the best of my abilities and continue the search for knowledge.
See you around the forums. :om:
" The problem is we think we have time "
Be well.
_/\_
I think I need a
break too.
' I am going outside. I may be some time.'
It would be very strange if all the various religions that are centered on self-examination and the search for truth ended up disagreeing with each other.
Now this is an affront to all of to all of those who have conditioned by a culture that values only the relative. We assume that he couldn't really have said that..or if he did he didn't mean it.
But, it seems to be authentic as anything else that he is recorded as saying..and the meaning in context is unambiguous.
We would prefer to substitute our own idea of the Buddha which conforms more to a multi-cultural and relativistic pov.
But facts are awkward things.
When I read ekayana ayam maggo I find it consistent with the idea that the ony way is through Jesus or Mohammed, as is so often claimed. It's the same 'way'. If they seem to differ then it is difficult to show that this is not just a matter of interpretation. It would be a daft situation if all the prophets and sages did not converge on the truth. Religious practices would become implausible as a means of investigating truth.
I would agree that many people seem to prefer a relativistic approach that allows them to maintain their preconceptions and avoid any uncomfortable facts. But I'm a fundamentalist.
My basic position is that there may be many paths. I am quite sure for example that Thomas Merton hit the motherlode where words fail, while following a contemplative Christian path.
I think that we as individuals can only walk one path however with any chance of success, and even that is tough.
Btw @Citta I stll cannot figure out what 'D.O' means in your previous post. I fear I'm being very dense.
For me, this kind of pondering is good for entertainment purposes mainly and not worth losing sleep over.
The main thing is that we are here now.
Could it be that your feeling to move away from Hinduism is because the fanciful aspect of Hinduism wearing away? Instead of it being a Hindu path, it became just a path - the anthropological study ended. Just something to think on - I apologize if my speculation over stepped.
For me the concept of surrendering seemed to be a skillful way of dealing with my karmic manifestations. I feel a greater responsibility, it as no longer study - it is not a child's curiosity.
One thing I _DO_ know for sure in life, words, once spoken can never be taken back or unheard. Right Speech encompasses thinking before we speak. When it comes to online interactions, I have found the best success when I type, wait a few minutes, re read it and if it sounds at all confrontational or condescending/rude/aggressive, delete or edit it.
In Metta,
Raven
In a similar way describing or bringing attention or exposing our foibles/being reflected in others, is part of the potential benefits of our interaction.
Wether it is right to edit/delete/opinionate/express our being . . . gently does it, sometimes very directly
:bowdown:
In a similar way describing or bringing attention or exposing our foibles/being reflected in others, is part of the potential benefits of our interaction.
Wether it is right to edit/delete/opinionate/express our being . . . gently does it, sometimes very directly
:bowdown:
Sorry @lobster, in your genuinely confusing nature I have no idea if you are being cryptic, confronting or otherwise. I find it interesting though that you would equate paternal with condescending. Knowing I am neither male or condescending *shrugs*
I think though that the real issue is, perhaps I have unwittingly touched a sore point? I've been known to do that. I'm sorry if you feel that way.
In metta,
Raven
So, from what I read, I can simply offer this: do not get down on yourself if you grow into something (detailed path wise) other than what you follow now. Simply accept what you grow into down the line as being for then (in future) with the option of changing yet again. Accept the option, think of a budding lily, it opens over time. So do we flower into full path following over time (a series of nows, if you prefer, but many more than one). that is where I am now.
Metta,
John.
No need to feel sorry. Acute miscommunication. You may remember the posting about how if a negative way to find a benign posting exists we will find it.
You have indeed made me sore, what I said was meant very kindly.
:bawl:
Well you know if I didn't think that, I wouldn't have tried soften it.
Personally I am a Jewish Dalit - untouchable.
In fact according to Leviticus 11:9-12 an abomination :crazy:
Caste is one of the parting dharmas between Hari Krishna and Bodhisattva Harry.
The ruling cast of fishnets is the Sangha/Lama/senior practitioner . . . dependent on availability.
Maybe Jain is a good religion to convert to
Next.
Do I know what I want? Well, yes...and no. If I knew 100%, I wouldn't be trying to seek a path that I believe best fits me.
I'm trying to find a religious path which would best share what my ethics and beliefs already are. A community to share my growth with. A place where I can share my ideals and try to promote compassion, mindfulness, and social justice.
Yes, I recall that particular thread. Yes, I recall stating how great it was and how happy I was with it. No, I'm not one of those people who go to a couple of services and claim a religion as my own. If you find other threads I've commented on, I've stated that, after I entered college, I left my "angry atheist" phase and began exploring religion again. This was about 4 yeas ago. 4 years of studying different faiths, talking to practitioners, trying to live out their respective ethical codes, and going to services.
When I came to Hinduism, I spent about a year studying it before "claiming" it. I studied the different Devas, the concepts of our relationship with God (dualism and non-dualism), the different swamis and saints, what the rituals represent, the problems found within Hinduism (the caste system, nationalism, etc.), and so on and so forth. I didn't go to one service and just go "Oh my God, I love Shiva. He's awesome! Let me don a bindi, go vegetarian and appropriate everything from their religion and culture!".
After a few months, 4 years of what I have been looking for came flooding back, and I realized a few things.
1.) I burned out of ritual. When I first adopted Buddhism, I wanted the external trappings. Statues, malas, incense, bells, etc. The same can be said when it came to Hinduism. After a while, I discovered that living out the philosophies (of both practices; or just Dharma in general) where more important than chanting, bowing, or praying for a good rebirth in Pure Land. It just honestly took me a while to realize all this. As much as I would have protested this in the beginning, a more secular approach to Dharma fits me better than a religious one. I still will read the Dharsanas, Sutras, Gita, and Dhammapada; but more as inspirations to apply to how I live, rather than strictly religious manuals.
2.) When it comes to the Devas and Boddhisattvas, I never viewed them as literally real. Just simply representations of a greater reality (what I refer to as God). If I never viewed them as real, then why pray to them or worship them as if they were? Why continue to worship Shiva, Krishna or Ganesha if I don't believe they individually exist? Going back to being burned out by ritual, it came to a point where said rituals became pointless. They simply became ends to justify the means, rather than a means of focus in my practice. This also goes for Buddhist ritual.
3.) I 100% believe in God, but I had leftover baggage from when I was a Christian when it came to the concept of monotheism. I thought that going down a polytheistic route made more sense and would separate me from the God-concept in which I was raised in. Now I realize, since I view devas and other deities as representations of one source, that I am technically a monotheist after all. There is nothing wrong with believing in one source and it just took me a while to figure that out. Although, I would still say that I'm more of a Pan(en)theist than a traditional monotheist.
I hope this clarified a few things. I no longer believe in the rituals and other trappings of either Hinduism or Buddhism; but I still believe that they offer much philosophical inspiration and personal truth. I can also finally admit that I really only believe in one source of being. I'm still on my search for a path to call my own, but I think I'm just going to keep it to myself for the time being.
An Atheist doesn't have to be angry first of all, hell, Atheists are the happiest group (not that they are a group) of people I know aside from Mormons, so you might want to check Mormonism out.......
It kills me when people see a few Atheists's misconduct and group Atheists with attacking, angry, sinful, etc... I have never been as happy as I am since I have turned away from Theism and religion. Sure, I may use some simple Buddhism concepts as sort of a Psycho therapy, but it's just that, I don't simply "believe" anything in Buddhism, I have cherry picked what I want, used them in my life and pushed all the tales and myths and things that require simply believing aside, because in this life Chris, simply believing, faith, whatever you want to call it, is nonsense... Now I know a lot of people that DEEP inside, they know their faith is flawed and probably wrong, but they don't care, it makes them feel warm and cuddly inside and cared about, they aren't strong enough to make it without religion, and it's not their faults, they can be strong enough, I was one of those people as a teen. But I found that much more growth, truth, beauty, and wisdom comes outside of ancient belief systems, religions, cults, holy books, whatever people like turning to for what they think is "security". Well, it may make you feel secure, but I personally don't care about security when I can't think for myself, when I am a prisoner in a set system, a mind control system, and that is exactly what religion is. It's all bull.
Now, me being an A-theist, I will never tell you that there isn't a God, I wouldn't say that. I don't say there isn't a God, I just simply don't get involved in the discussion, however, me personally, I have never experienced anything in my life that would make me believe that there is a God. So my whole point is not necessarily telling you to push away God, for lack of a better word, maybe higher power? But to give up on these religious journeys, because in the end, for the rational mind, it only ends up hurting you.
A little paradox might be welcome . . .
Can you 'believe' or better still know a god that is 0% unreal?
A god that transcends existence and non existence?
If not you will never understand 100%.
Trust me, I am unbelievable . . .