Raising my voice
Bunks
Australia Veteran
I am typing this while I am still angry (probably not smart but hey!)
My daughter is four and a half and has just started to be able to use the toilet.
However, she needs to be pestered for five or ten minutes to sit on the toilet (me repeating her name constantly and calmly and trying to drag her away from what she's doing).
She'll finally go but sit and whine and cry and whinge the whole time she's on there. This usually lasts ten or fifteen minutes.
Then it's time to wash hands and the fun really begins. She screams, cries and whines through the whole process. It's exhausting! If I go near her she'll often try and hit me or pinch me so I have to just leave her.
I am so fed up by this stage I often end up grabbing (not hurting) and yelling at her which usually makes her stop in her tracks and finish the whole process quietly and efficiently.
I know some may say I'm breaking he fourth precept (harsh speech and all that) but I just get so frustrated with her! We go through this three times a day every day!
Comments
@Bunks I'm not a father so I can't offer you advice from that regard,
I can offer you solice in the form of the precepts, I heard an analogy that said as Buddhists we are not vegetables waiting to be cut.
If I a child is running towards a snake we can and should use force to protect the child. We just don't have anger or frustration in our hearts.
I'm sure you can be stirn with your daughter, your helping her grow
just be mindful of your mind states. Then everything you say or do will be pure.
I admire you my friend! Tough one your daughter is ! She will be great at life haha.
Sorry, but why are you pestering her? At that age she should know when to go to the toilet.
@Bunks
Child rearing is just fraught with big assed opinions....but even though it's been 20 years since I've been where you now are...... four questions come to mind in reading your post.
What do you think she gets from behaving like this?
Is she just slower at toilet development than you'd like her to be?
Is the whining, screaming and crying through the hand washing process actually giving her something that she is wanting?
Is a quiet, efficient process worth the costs of how they are achieved.
I am definitely not criticizing what you are doing....just pointing out how often problems between folks, regardless of age differences, stem from allowing our own agendas to
dull our abilities to empathize with another.
Oh yes, in an ideal world children would get that insistent signal and immediately act upon it. But they have only recently come out of nappies. Before, they could just release where they were, no problem. Now, suddenly, they have to 'hold it in' until a loo is available...or until something else stops being a better option. My little grandson has developed a cute set of dance-steps which are an immediate indication of "My bladder's full, about to bust but I'm doing whatever it takes to put off the loo visit for as long as possible because playing this game/colouring this book is so much more interesting!" Trust me, @poptart, all little kids do it. Heck, I bet you even did it yourself! It's just a transitional period and little kids need encouraging. I bet @Bunks' little girl sure looks cute dancing around, wiggling her hips.... but she needs to leave what she's doing. And convincing children to do that, can be difficult.
@Bunks, you need to calmly come to discuss this with your wife. Because I sense you have a 'difficult' relationship with your daughter.... was it you who spoke of her waking in the night and wanting her mom and not you? I forget.... but discuss a strategy with your wife - and consider also, that your little girl is getting to the age where action and consequences start making sense. If she doesn't take herself to the loo when she needs to go, and wets herself, then that's her problem. If you keep taking that responsibility of choice away from her, and imposing your own opinion, it may prolong the issue.
That said, I don't see many middle-aged adults doing this... or wearing nappies either.... So this SHALL pass.... try to not get stressed. And use it as a lesson in "This is what happens if you don't do 'this'...."
Thanks everyone for your feedback.
She was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome some time ago. Often this manifests as a late start in toilet training. This has certainly been the case with her. We tried for two years to get her to this stage! Perhaps that is part of the problem. It has been such a journey to get here that we are just tired of fighting. I guess that's not her fault.
Just a question @federica, if she wees on the kitchen floor and stands in it screaming (as happened yesterday) do you suggest we leave her? She actually still struggles to dress and undress herself (Her physical abilities are still very stunted) so it just isn't an option for us at this stage I don't think.
Thanks again!
Normally, I would suggest waiting for a lull in the screaming and explaining quietly that this is what happens when you don't go to the loo. But as she is a child with Asperger's Syndrome, I'll be honest, I'm out of my depth and wouldn't know where to begin.... I suspect that the tantrum about going to the lavatory has nothing to do with having to go to the lavatory, but by being obliged, forced, coerced to do something she doesn't want to do. All I know is that people with Asperger's Syndrome view everyday ordinary tasks in a completely different way to the way we do.
Let's be blunt: She isn't like 'normal children'. She has specific qualities which make her a child with special, particular needs. Such children are often of high intelligence, but have some associated learning difficulties. One thing I do know, is that they like routine. They like familiarity and rhythm to their day, so maybe you can note the times she needs to go to the loo, and turn it into a routine-game.... Put a timer on, a chime, and when she hears it, she needs to go to the loo and see if she would like to pee....I'm just grasping at notions here, but it might work... if she has to listen for the bell, and incorporate it into her time schedule, it may work for her to be proactively responsible for engaging with the game....
Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah, I probably should mention that when talking about her. It certainly brings about a lot of challenges that our friends don't seem to have with their kids.
@federica. It's funny you should mention the timer thing. The wife and I were just talking about that before.
As a father I have to agree with federica when it comes to routine. Children do really well with routine and learn from it. I found that meals and drinks that were provided at regular intervals daily made it easy to incorporate potty training into the mix with little fuss. I know it can be difficult to do especially if you and your wife both work outside of the home, but it is worth it in the long run.
By the way, I know how you feel about raising your voice to your daughter. As my boys get older I do it less out of anger and frustration. They still get yelled at occasionally,but for their benefit, not mine.
Have you reached out for any kind of resources....support groups....parents of special needs children...things like that? The information , advice, and support you can get from these groups are priceless. I have said before...even with 3 children who didn't have any health issues...I often attended different kinds of parenting classes. What worked for one, didn't work for the other and I needed different approaches to try.
Some issues took 3 or 4 different solutions until ....BAM! It was almost stunning how something worked when it worked.
Don't be afraid to ask/admit you need help with this. As the saying goes....kids didn't come with instruction book....so stop assuming that you should just automatically know how to do everything. Loving and nurture comes natural to some people...but techniques and methods are another ball of wax. Lighten up on yourself....you've never done this before.
Practice patience with her AND with you.
Don't usually comment on threads about personal matters, @Bunks. But I will on this one:
Your little girl is lucky to have a father like you.
AS kids thrive on routine. But they also tend to have a lot of sensory issues that they cannot explain well when they are young. It could be a number of things. It could be that the toilet seat is cold. Or sticky. Or too slippery. The water might be too cold, too hot or just too wet. Maybe she doesn't like the sensation of the soap. For the handwashing, you might try sanitizer instead of soap and water, it's faster and it is what mY AS kid prefers. Despite the fact he loves to swim, he hates, hates hates when part of his body is wet, and part is not. You could try a child seat that sits over the toilet (if you haven't already). Take her with and let her choose it herself.
You also might set an alarm, set an egg timer or something for her and tell her ahead of time "when the alarm buzzes, we are going to go to the bathroom" and offer a reward if she does it successfully (remember that for an AS kid, success is something just getting through, not getting through the way we wish they would, lol)
Thanks again guys. Your help and kind words are appreciated.
We are lucky enough to live in a country where we receive financial support for her AS diagnosis. This means we are given $12k a year to pay for disability care services which has helped. They put together plans and come visit us to give us ideas.
We have all been stuck in the house together for the last week with colds so we're all a bit testy right now. I go back to work on Monday so that will be a break for me (and the kids).
I take my hat off to stay at home mums. It's a tough gig!
I am so nodding my head in agreement. Although now my 12 year old daughter is going through her teen age angst, my yelling is starting to increase at times rolls eyes
Metta,
Raven
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A friend of ours once said that people who work in child care should be more patient with the kids they look after than their parents are.
I could only say to her that if there's anyone out there who had the ability to be more patient with my daughter than my wife and I they deserve a saint hood!
Listen to me whining! I love my daughter and wouldn't have her any other way. I think I just need a break.
My older son turned 12 in May. I'm right there with you too!
Everyone needs a break, nothing wrong with that! You'll be amazed at the ways she finds to manage her challenges as she gets older, especially with the support of her family and the services you are able to get. They are amazing problem solvers sometimes!
My AS son has been such a blessing, but I was so afraid and so frustrated when he was little. He has been the best teacher ever for me to recognize that there truly are many other ways to solve problems, and that my way is only one way. My son always does thing different than me, every single time. And I'm grateful for all the lessons he's had for me
He found a niche that he succeeds in, and made friends, and now you'd hardly know he has AS, except sometimes conversations are a bit strange with him. He has blossomed and changed SO much in the past 5 years (he is going on 18 now) it's just amazing to have witnessed it. Your daughter will get there, on her own terms. If she is old enough to explain, maybe at a time she isn't feeling pressured, ask her if it was up to her, how would she handle potty training? Sometimes they have surprising answers.
When my grandson was diagnosed with Pervasive Developental Disorder (more commonly diagnosed than autism/Asperger's in very young children) the psychologist told my daughter to expect to feel overwhelmed, at wit's end, fed up, driven crazy, and the answer is to 'get a break'. Not always an option, but the idea is that it is OK to want a break and to get one. It's OK to have all the gamut of negative unfatherly reactions, of course you love her. She is a standard deviation or two MORE challenging than a typical four year old.
I detect power struggling going on, and AS kids often have stubbornness and what appears to be 'control issues' that defeat the parents. A friend who's grandson has AS has gone the pharmaceutical route -- introduced some miniscule amount of Prozac that would barely undepress a fruit fly and it seems to have eased her grandson's daily resistance battles to dressing, eating and toileting. The mother kept a daily log and the tantrums/episodes decreased in number with the Prozac. I think he ended up on 2.5mg daily, when the typical dose would be 10mg for a child.
The child is suffering (hugely magnified and out of proportion, of course) to a cold toilet seat or stinky slimy soap, or being 'forced' to stop the much more satisfying playing interrupted by the ridiculous need to use the toilet (rather than just pee in place). Yet, in spite of her differences, she must learn to use the toilet and dress and wash hands and all that stuff! Think of the alternatives . . . so what might decrease her 'suffering' and enable her to adapt to fluctuations in her necessary daily routine?
Her neurochemistry is a given, yet so are the demands of her environment. If light use of medication could ease her transition into using the toilet routinely, then the medication could be withdrawn and viola -- neither you or your daughter have the memories and experiences of butting heads. I know people hate to use meds on kids and for the most part I'm very much against it -- unless it can prevent what you are describing, which is not good for either of you. If there is any 'unnecessary' suffering, let's get rid of it, why not?
Even Temple Grandin takes Celexa, she openly admits it soothed her neurochemistry and hugely improved her day to day functionability.
I don't know all of her wisdom but I know my step mom at one point in his development often had to sit on him and say 'who's the boss?'
Try writing a social story for using the bathroom.http://www.pbisworld.com/tier-2/social-stories/
And I that naïvelly thought I'd stop yelling some day...!
Look @Bunks, children are the lesson in life where all our best Buddhist intentions seem to fail miserably.
I feel so holier than holy after my meditation practice, and yet it takes one single tantrum from my son to drag me back to Samsara in a quarter of a second.
Actually, it's not the tantrums in his case, but the nagging "why?" for every single thing I ask him to do. From getting dressed, to the choice of his meal, to doing his homework, to helping lay the table, I often meet with opposition on his part or this notion as to "why am I supposed to do this, now, this way." Or rather, "your way."
Personally, he never had trouble with the toilet training, but a friend of mine did.
One day our children were playing in the playground and despite my friend asking her daughter at different intervals if she needed to use the toilet -and getting 'no' for an answer- the girl peed in her pants.
My friend had not taken a spare panty, so the girl had to go on playing in her wet clothes. That was the way she learnt she had to go to the toilet when she needed to.
I think Bunks is an excellent parent for even considering that he (or she?) is doing something wrong in this situation. Your child is lucky to have you; go easy on yourself.
Hey Bunks in my opinion & i mean this with the greatest of respect, your daughter is vital training for you & you should see her & every one else in the same light..If you can't be patient with your daughter for 10 mins while she is learning, then what does it really say about you?..If you have a problem with controlling your patience & anger, then she is exactly what you need at this moment in time..How else can you learn to control your own patience & anger, unless you have something that makes you angry to practice on?....If you can make it into some sort of game where it becomes fun to go to the loo, & if you are patient as she learns then i bet your'd see a massive difference..Remember she's learning & your the teacher, & your learning & she's the teacher..She probably dreads going now because you lose your temper, so make it fun & be patient because once patience is learn't it's amazing to have. :-)
The lady from the care services put together a picture book about going to the toilet and about saying hello and goodbye to people.
I can't remember which one it was but my daughter said "I will NEVER read that book!" then it mysteriously disappeared. I think she was on to what we were trying to do
I usually find when I have had a decent nights sleep my patience with her increases. I guess that's the same for most people.
I think we just need to ride the toilet tantrums out. Like all things with her so far we just need to be patient and she'll come around. It just seems to take her longer with the physical things than other kids.
Perhaps we have helped her too much with some stuff rather than letting her do it itself? Who knows? I can't think of any other thing you can do in life where you second guess yourself so often. You've just got to make decisions and try and stick to them (but also re-assess at times).
Thanks again to you all for your feedback. The good thing about talking to people online like this is that they're more likely to be straight with you than the people closer to you who just agree with everything you say or do.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.....
. 
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Sycophant!
(I just love that word and it reminds me of the late, great Rik Mayall)
I've just read and re-read this thread, because I have my own issues with my 12 year-old son, but here is my take on it @Bunks
if she has a diagnosis of Asbergers already and you are losing it - you need some counselling
my advice:
Hate to say it but that sounds cute as hell, haha.
Simply raising your voice or losing your patience as a parent does not mean a person needs counseling. Parents are people too, and kids and parents learn together what works for them and their families. That doesn't mean it's ok to just go on a screaming rant all the time. But yelling happens, and as long as a parent can learn from it, that's the most important thing. If you go to a counselor and tell them "I never want to get frustrated, impatient or raise my voice with my children." you are likely to be told it's not possible, lol. It takes a lot more time than average to learn how to communicate with an AS kid. Their issues are vast, and not a single one applies across the board to every AS kid. Their issues are very individual and figuring out what they are when communication is difficult is very hard. It comes with time.
@Bunks, you might want to look, if you are interested, if there is a support group of parents of kids on the high functioning spectrum. They can be a source of amazing ideas and wonderful support when you most need it, and could introduce your daughter to people who are like her where she might be feeling alone. There are online support groups as well if your area doesn't have one.
That is exactly what Bunks did -- got counseling. From little ole us
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Thanks @anataman! I particularly try and remember points 3 and 4 above.
I think as parents it's all too easy to forget that. We often think we are totally responsible for our children's behaviour. To some degree we are but we also need to remember that they've come to us with certain pre-existing conditions and we can't change that.
With summer holidays and me as primary carer a the moment - things get tough!
But...
These people might be looking after you if you suffer a major ailment... so treat them kindly and fairly!
China is going to go through something very tough very soon (with one child per family syndrome)