I "get" the noble truths
Mingle
Veteran
Everything just clicked last night. I see how blinded we all are by the illusion of happiness we create. All our desire stems from our dissatisfaction of right now and because we aren't satisfied we create this illusionary carrot on a string that we believe if we obtain we will be satisfied. We believe we can't ever be happy if we don't get this carrot and getting this carrot is the only thing worth striving for as all else is meaningless without it. All that stress though that comes with the pursuit though, that envy of other people who you believe are currently eating that carrot all those times the carrot has felt so out of reach this is dukha. Dukha isn't necessarily pain it can even be happiness, its the illusion we live in the silly board game we don't know we are playing its us kidding ourselves because we cant just simply live with ourselves. This realization hit home for me, I've read about the noble truths and learned about them but never really accepted them as truth until last night. They just make sense now and have penetrated everything I've ever believed. I see things differently and especially mediation. Meditation has been my carrot, and I have believed by reaching some goal I will be happy and everything in my life will come together but this is not true. Spiritual progress is not progress at all, it's not going from A to B, its about clearing the debris that is your dissatisfaction with yourself. With this I believe meditation will be different as I can remove the strain from it and relax better. I also believe that meditation is not the only way to awaken. I hope what Im saying makes sense. It's a great feeling when stuff just clicks into place.
Comments
Keep after it...
Best wishes.
The goal of meditation is to observe how much one creates one's own suffering. Everytime one tries to grab hold of or push away an object, we lose peace and sow the seeds of suffering.
Bravo!
Dont stop now.
.
"I "get" the noble truths"
Now what ?
Ah, Grasshopper, you have now taken the first step!
Glad for the click into knowing
Meditation is the method used by Buddhists to awaken.
Meditation is like running, always different. Externally it looks the same but the internal relaxed attention/attentive awareness is different.
http://www.omharmonics.com/blog/buddhist-meditation/
I heard a really really simple saying that is bang on with what you are saying
" All suffering is caused by wanting life to be different than it is"
And this all stems from not seeing life as it is. We see it from our perspective, which we believe is the right one. Yet all our views are second hand, born of the societies and learning from a young age. We even think in the language we were taught.
Despite our thoughts on a situation is there ever a problem?
It's all so simple and that's why it's hard.
If only that were so.
@SpinyNorman can you give me an example?
Dukkha is pervasive and far reaching. Wanting and not wanting are only one aspect.
Not sure on your definition of dukkha, but can you give me any example of suffering that is not caused by wanting life to be different?
What I don't get though is how suffering due to being raped, getting killed or dying in pain from illness is linked to desire. Can anyone explain?
It's as earthninja said. It is the desire to not be being raped. The longing for the pain to end, rather than accepting that that is what is happening.
But wether one accepts it or not, there Is still pain though and pain is suffering yes? That's what I don't understand.
you're getting hung up on the words' suffering' and 'pain.
Breaking it down: There is physical agony and there is emotional hurt.
Physical agony need not be accompanied by emotional hurt.
Emotional Hurt could be described as "Why is this happening to me? It's not fair! I can't deal with this, it's making me sad/angry/miserable/stressed/resentful, this is awful, I can't stand it...."
All this can be transformed into, "This is happening to me. I can't change it, so I am accepting it. While there is physical agony, I will not let it give rise to emotional pain. I will let things be as they are, because they are as they are. "
Does that help?
Yes it's painful. The link to desire is the desire for things to be different from what they are. So there is physical pain, and on top of it the mental anguish of wishing that it was gone. Which is what @Earthninja said above is at the heart of all types of suffering, which makes sense to me.
I'm still waiting for clarification from @SpinyNorman on that question.
Physical pain is a good example. We can get rid of the second arrow but not the first.
Pain is not suffering. Pain is warning sensations in the nervous system. We impute this as suffering, which is why we suffer.
I've seen people get rib tattoos and nearly fall asleep. They don't suffer, they actually enjoy it.
It's only suffering when you don't want the pain to be there. The pain arises and ceases like all phenomena.
If pain was suffering then enlightenment couldn't stop suffering. Point would be moot.
Pain is a spectrum of sensations, pleasurable being on one end. Pain on the other.
Sounds are the same, colours are the same.
If you don't like certain sounds, you suffer it. If you don't like the colour green. You suffer. If you don't like pain. You suffer.
Pain is a part of life, suffering is us having aversion to pain.
Hmm. Have you ever had severe or chronic pain?
Have you ever been exposed to 5 days straight of nails on a chalk board?
Or a constant water drop on your head? For a month?
Or a 3 year old with the lion king story book on repeat for 10 hours?
None of these are physically painful, yet they cause tremendous suffering.
Not to everybody though. Especially three year olds.
We want not to be hurt, maimed or killed. That is vibhava tanha, the wish to get rid of a situation. It is natural human instinct that also leads to suffering. The way out is to transcend all this.
There is really no way other than to realise anatta and to break the delusion that you are an individual(sakkayaditthi) who is hurting which is the single greatest barrier to awakening.
@federica well I've always thought of pain as uncomfortable and that's why we suffer. Yet there are some pains I enjoy like perhaps the pain of working out, then its just a sensation. @Earthninja actually cleared it up pretty well with the tattoo analogy. Its just I think of those poor victims of the beheadings, even if they accept there fate I'm sure they still suffered terribly. Then again if they were certain there was life after death infact a much better life and had been beheaded many times before to the point they enjoy it like a tattoo enthusiast would that mean they won't suffer?
See this never makes sense to me. Even as I realize non-separation, I still also realize that my actions do have consequence which is the reason to be mindful of them.
If I was not an individual then my actions would not have any consequence and really, I wouldn't do anything.
I am an individual function of the process even as I have no abiding station.
To negate our individuality is to negate our ability for objectivity so it really doesn't seem to work on a practical level.
I'm also reminded of the monk though who committed suicide back in the 60's I think by self immolation. Did he suffer? Sure didnt look like it. Perhaps this is a good analogy.
@ourself, pegembara is going into what me and you talked about at length.
Only thing I can add is maybe a possibility that you have never been an individual, your objectifying mind just thinks you are. It cannot see the oneness.
Only consciousness can.
I'll stay out of this. Haha.
That is still meaningless and a haphazard guess on your part.
If I have a mind then that is what is meant by being an individual.
So have you experienced severe or chronic pain?
"If I was not an individual then my actions would not have any consequence and really, I wouldn't do anything."
"I am an individual function of the process even as I have no abiding station."
All that arises and passes away ie. conditioned phenomena(sankhara) is not you or yours. That includes ideas, thoughts, opinions and emotions.
What is left when they fade away is pure knowing. The Thai Forest masters call this Buddho(poo roo). All these sankharas are merely appearances that deludes when they are clung to. If you must identify with something at least identify with Buddho aka "the one who knows". Strictly speaking though you are not even that.
Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anatta.
Did you know that post is unique to you as an individual?
You do own your actions and you actions do define you as an individual whether you want them to or not.
If I sound offended, I apologize as I am just rather blunt. It's just odd when an individual negates individuality.
There is no paradox in being unique aspects of the same ever-changing process but it seems many desire there to be.
Everyone has the mundane view. That's easy. Realizing the two truths seems to take a lot of contemplation, meditation and talking apparently.
@SpinyNorman depends on your definition. I've had appendicitis, left me in the foetal position on a couch haha.
I've been hit by a car whilst I was on a motorbike, that hurt.
Kicked in the balls as a kid. That hurt.
My ear drum exploded as well whilst surfing.
Talking helps reconcile experiential differences.
If everyone is a unique and special, what is so unique about them? After all no 2 persons are the same. Think about that.
But seriously, this knowing is the same for you, me and everyone else but we fail to recognise it. It has no shape or form, it is not male or female, young or old, Caucasian, Asian etc. and it is boundless and can include the body and the world.
It is not a thought or feeling but recognizes thought as thought and feeling as feeling. The reason you don't notice it is because you missed those gaps or spaces between the thoughts. You need to stay there long enough to gain that perspective.
You are not your thoughts. That is the honest truth.
https://books.google.com.my/books?id=hjZWMYup4UMC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Yeah, I never claimed to be my thoughts nor do I suspect that I am my thoughts.
In your first question you already answered. Everybody is unique but that is what we also have in common.
As I said, it is not a paradox to be a unique aspect of the only process.
It is, because you're forgetting change and that means you (in your individuality or uniqueness) changing as well. Or am I getting you wrong?
You must be getting me wrong.
Our individuality/uniqueness changes, sure, but not into non-individuality or something not unique. You can change as much as you want but you are still unique.
Being unique and subject to change only solidifies our connection.
It may sound paradoxical but the one thing absolutely every thing, process and/or action has in common is uniqueness and change.
tee hee
The sense of uniqueness that you are so attached to is [drum roll] a fabrication ... This is what is taught in the sutras and countless practitioners including this cructacean confirm.
The unique placement in time and place, with unique mental grooves, memories and experiences is relatively very convincing. In dharma we do not call it Buddha Nature but ignorance and delusion [shock horror].
This has been explained, pointed out and verified by some. Your 'uniqueness' is known by all of us.
@lobster;
No offense but I don't think you understand like you clearly wish you do.
Delusion has many forms but none so clear as the delusion of false enlightenment.
Your little "lol" is very telling by the way. Sorry if the truth offends you.
none taken
That's good because as you well know, you are no authority on the subject.
A popular misconception doesn't make it any less of a misconception.
Yes, we can see patterns in processes but each is unique. Perpetual change seen from myriad points of view.
To get it i your head is a small beginning. To get it in your heart (your core), now that is progress!
Peace to all
After happiness comes suffering. After suffering arises happiness. For beings happiness and suffering Revolve like a wheel.
—Nagarjuna
http://www.lionsroar.com/buddhas-four-noble-truths/#
This really got me thinking, thank you! And I think my answer is: below craving and aversion (the wish life was otherwise) is ignorance, the delusion of self, permanence, non-emptiness, which is the root cause of our suffering.
@ourself Regarding (y)ourself, Buddha taught a Middle Way between nihilism and eternalism.
He sure did.
That's why I say it is not paradoxical to be a unique aspect of the process.
Happiness and suffering are merely conditions.
What comes before happiness and suffering? What comes after?
Sure, everything is unique, ineffable. So .. what's so unique about (y)our uniqueness?
@pegembara absolutely. I am happy now but dependent on my health and 'life' etc