Do you just accept your current state of mind, or do you try to change it?
DairyLama
Veteran Veteran
I've noticed some different approaches on this. Some say that one should just recognise and accept whatever states of mind arise, and let them be, a passive approach. Others say that one should then apply Right Effort as appropriate, consciously "replacing" unskillfull states with more skillfull ones.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vayamo/
Note that an initial recognition and acceptance of one's state of mind is common to both approaches. Note also that we are dealing here primarily with practice off the cushion, so let's not get bogged down in another discussion about meditation technique.
I favour the Right Effort approach, particularly when dealing with habitual or persistent states like anxiety. Just accepting a particular state of mind and doing nothing doesn't always work for me.
So what do you think?
Comments
I am not a Taoist and totally Yin. If we have overwhelming ignorance/suffering, most try to take active measures to change their mind, health, emotional hang ups etc.
In a more balaced state it is possible to be more allowing and dissipating of ones arisings. It really depends on what we start with and work with as our understanding and capacity changes ...
I accept that the right effort approach is a good one, but in practice I find it difficult to motivate myself to move on to practice as far as physical activities is concerned. It's a thing to do with vigour, viriya which I also find tricky.
Mentally I am pretty active, and rarely suffer from poor states of mind or emotions. About a month ago I had a sudden moment of intense sadness, which was triggered by the thought of saying goodbye to my father, which lasted about 20 minutes. It that was very unusual for me, the first such occurrence in many years.
Normally my mind is blank and filled with a general goodwill. Sometimes a flash of anger pushes through, or there is a slight unease, but that is all.
I think noticing the change of mental states is very good already. And no matter how persistent an emotion can be, I always end up experiencing multiple ones during the day. Being mindful of the transient nature of these things seem to work for me. I am not so sure if that is categorised as right effort or passive altitude.
Both
I like to imagine my thinking process just as a river constantly flowing, always changing and moving. And when Iam imagine this, I feel Iam more in controll, because I accept thoughts just as they are. Its like a river flowing and nothing more than that.
If I meet strong aversion or unskillfull thoughts popping up, I try to see them in a positive way, if my mind say, OHH this is heavy, I try to counter it with, its easy, its no problem at all.
The most difficult part is to recognize these unskillfull thoughts, they can come behind my back and attack me at any time.
Few things empower the mind, along with it's conditioning, like making it the center of ones attention.
I find my mind to be so conditioned towards bullying my other sense gates that my best solution to this imbalance has been to give what I see, hear, taste, smell & feel..... a comparable training in the spiritual martial arts.
This means not having to treat my mind as anything more special than any other sense gate and finding out that as equals they are all amazingly capable of policing each others susceptibilities to the egos seductions.
Here, both an accepting of the mind and the dropping of the sandbox walls that it defined itself by....are possible.
Do you mean just like a body scan, but in your case its more focused on your sense gates?
For me, I take notice and then go from there. Sometimes it is clear it is something that is arising and just needs to dissipate. Sometimes I need to evaluate the thought itself and why I thought that (say I have a random bad thought about someone I don't know) or my actions/reactions. I try to pay attention to what is coming and going, but I don't take forced action on all of it.
I try to change it if it's unbearable and leading to even worse states of mind.
But apparently accepting it before trying to change it is more or less useful thing to do.
This is more specific to negative thoughts rather than any states of mind.
This is from Buddhism Connect an educational public facebook page where Lama Shenpen shares some selected questions her students have asked. https://www.facebook.com/BuddhismConnect/
I have found this one true with intrusive auditory hallucinations. Exactly so knowing that the voices are empty and saying nothing has helped whereas arguing against the voices and reasoning is something to do but it doesn't slow the energy of the voices down.
I often accept when I'm in a bad mood. Especially when alone or when I don't have to speak. When working nighstifts for example. My mood however is taking it's toll on my surroundings (relationship, family, other social interactions), so I have to actively change work to alter my mood sometimes.
Situational.
My therapist always says dealing with a bad state of mind is like riding a wave -- just go with it, or you'll fall and the tide will pull you under. It definitely heps with my anxiety, just riding it out while trying to direct my focus elsewhere.
I also do the same thing with my mind when it tries to tell me something is too hard. "Nope, I CAN handle this!"
That is a good explanation of it.
I find that my own conditioned responses to anything are most easily noticed through a balanced resting of my attention upon all of the sense gates. Any unbalancing of that overall awareness has been my best early warnings system for inbound ignorance.
Ignorance itself first appears to me as a habituated elevation of focus on one sense gate to the detriment of my awareness of the others, just as equanimity manifests simply as a collegiality of all the sense gates.
When you say do nothing I'm assuming you mean in the mindfulness sense where observing the emotion without being swept away by it allows it to dissipate and eventually disappear altogether.
The question reminds me of the long running debate about Buddha nature. On one side you have the camp that says we have Buddha nature because we all have the ability to develop and generate the enlightened mind. In the other camp you have people who say our Buddha nature already exists and that it is only obscured.
Depending on which map you use your practice will either focus on doing something active (applying antidotes, developing qualities) or doing nothing (letting the obscuring mental factors settle out).
My personal preference is toward the latter. Believing the enlightened mind already exists but is only obscured. To my mind it seems as if there are realized people on both sides so each methodology is probably effective. So maybe doing some of both accepting and changing would work.
"Sh.t, that guy just cut me off. Okay - don't be angry. Don't be angry. May you be well X2.
Angry mind .. not good. Calm, peace, metta. Wait a minute - another guy just cut me off!
Okay - calm, peace."
Sorry - that doesn't work for me.
What works? The world has many foolish people. That is just the way it is. No need to get upset and take things personally. When anger arises, just watch and it will pass. Observe and don't engage.
Both are true and therefore it is quite understandable to remove the rough edges and make the hindrances like transparent mist, drifting away ...
Buddha Nature mind surrounded by for example a grotesque ego (talking of myself as usual) is going to provide an 'obscured light' at best ...
Accept and change. Iz plan!
How does doing nothing let the obscuring mental factors settle out? How does doing nothing deal with the problem of ignorance? If you mean developing equanimity or acceptance or whatever, that is still doing something.
I think what you are describing is equanimity, but of course equanimity is also a skillfull state of mind, one that we develop through practice. So this is still an example of Right Effort. Actually you could say that all the practice we do is an application of Right Effort.
That description could also be applied to a practice like mindfulness of breathing, so I don't understand how paying attention to one aspect of experience is a symptom of ignorance. Or do you mean being unmindfully involved in a particular aspect of experience?
Yes, I find that helpful too, though it doesn't always work so well with recurring or persistent states of mind like anxiety.
I would say that maintaining mindfulness is an active process too, closely related to the application of Right Effort.
Yes, and the redirecting of focus is one way of looking at Right Effort.
An example given is like letting muddy water settle. Trying to do things to get the mud to settle only stirs up the water. So I suppose you could define that watching as doing something but I'd also say that it is a more passive something rather than active. The claim is that the mind, like water, is naturally pure we don't do anything to make it so we just allow it to show itself.
I have a history of intense anxiety, and the more I think about my childhood, the more it makes sense. Through my 20s, my mind would constantly "chew" on things, "big" or "small." I called myself a "worrier." But merely worrying didn't account for how I would become paralyzed by fear - unable to focus on things. In my 30s, I began getting panic attacks - tunnel-vision, cold sweats, feeling of impending doom, surreal-like state, which would all last around 10 minutes.
Recently I was speaking with my mom about some things in childhood. My dad was very overprotective of me. He was constantly hovering over me, making sure everything was ok. When my parents would leave me at home with a babysitter, even a close family friend, I would go into fits and constantly cry until they got home. Even when I got a bit older, like 9 or so, I would feel intense sadness and fear when separated from my parents, or even familiar surroundings. My first time at summer camp when I was around 12-13 was terrifying.
I write all this because I tend to try and change my state of mind, but I think I have often done this without acceptance of present circumstances, past events and other people's reaction to the different actions I have taken. My mind will go around and around in circles, as if that will change the past or change circumstances. Sometimes my mind is just dragging me along for the ride.
So now, I happen to be practicing just acceptance, and I'm not sure when to move to replacing my worries. Actually, just acceptance at this point has made a difference. I've been trying to "change" my state of mind, and it has come with more suffering than I can imagine, because I will go to a short state of bliss and non-worry, but it seems to manifest deep within unmindfulness.
Also, thanks for this forum. I haven't been here for a good while, and I stopped practicing for a good 2 years or so. I'm glad you all are still here, because I have become very unskillful once again.
For cases where,say, someone pulls out in front of me, or drives really slow under the speed limit (or really fast) or whatever, I start to wonder why. And in doing so, I develop compassion for them even if I do not know what is going on with them. Perhaps they are a new driver and are afraid of the highway. Perhaps they have a sick kid in the car. I've been in both those situations and always hope for patience and understanding from my fellow drivers. Because so many times I've judged someone and later found how wrong I was. Now I just assume I am wrong and take it the other direction and give them the benefit of the doubt rather than giving my negative thoughts and judgements the benefit of the doubt. When we can discover something, anything, in common with someone else, we soften immediately.
The other day in fact I was in a rush to pick up a kid because it was storming and he was waiting outside after a baseball game. I was not speeding but the car in front of me was going 10 under the speed limit. So I got frustrated. Then I realized that the people in front of me were neighbors, and in fact the parents of my closest friend who had just gotten a new car I didn't recognize. I don't know why they were driving slow, but my reaction softened immediately upon knowing who they were. We just have to find that common ground with others.
Accepting is besides the question. We have to deal with our mind state whether we accept or not. I get that you are really asking if we should try and change it when needed. I am sure that the need would be crucial or vital at certain times depending on the mind state. But if we were already well disciplined from practice and life lessons, certain mind states would not even pose any problems.
You've highlighted one sentence and somehow missed the half of it that said
(to the detriment of my awareness of the others).
Yes and I would say knowing what to encourage and what to let drop off is Mindfulness. That is what my teacher has said that it is. But letting things drop off is literally what it says. How does it drop off? I don't know but you don't need to theory craft about it you just have to do it and observe how it does and does not drop off.
And it's not a Mahayana thing all together. Ayya Khema a Theravadan nun talks about how with the kleshas you literally just sit with them till they pass like an upset stomach. If they are truly kleshas then you can treat them that way but keep the middle way. Keep the middle way in that don't go out and get so sunburned you hurt for days or something. And if you do get sunburned sure use some calamine lotion.
If you (someone) are really curious about this 'muddy water let stand idea' I am sure I can find seemingly endless book/youtube recommendations for them. It's everywhere and it ain't going away haha (ironic).
It might clarify that you can have thoughts like karasti is doing thinking they might have some reason for whatever driving or whatever. But you don't have to have certain thoughts. If they come ok then welcome them and see their effect on your mind come.... and go....if you like some thoughts usefulness ok great let it come....wisdom come..... foolishness come....
Not to be annoying, but I do both at the same time. Let me explain:
In the page you linked to, the word "replace" isn't actually used, which I think is important. The words in the suttas quoted are "abandon what is unskillful" and "develop what is skillful." This is different from replacing, because it's not a case of swapping out one mind-state for another, in the moment, but rather a gradual change in your response-repertoire over time.
For example, I don't think anxiety, in and of itself, is "unskillful." It's just a historically-determined program that comes up for some of us in some situations. My genetic predisposition and life history have given me a lot of anxiety over the years. It's something that comes up when a situation is similar enough to a past experience of threat or danger that my amygdala goes haywire. In this case, the most skillful response I've found was to bring compassion to myself for experiencing anxiety in that moment, and regard it as a bit of the past being evoked by the present. This gives me some space around that anxiety, helps to keep it from being perpetuated, and eventually helps me to take action in the presence of my anxiety.
What would be unskillful would be responding to that anxiety by shooting myself with the Second Arrow. It could be getting angry at myself for experiencing that anxiety ("You *#$%^$@! Why are you getting anxious for no reason?! You should be over this by now! Everyone else can do it, so why can't you?!") or shame about that anxiety ("This anxiety means there's something really wrong with me. I'm broken.") or fear of that anxiety ("This anxiety will be with my forever! I'll never be able to live a normal life, so long as I have this feeling! My world will come crashing down, and I'll end up completely incapable of doing anything I want to do in my life!").
So, recognizing that second response (aversion to anxiety) as unskillful, I would try to purposely try to move my mind more towards the compassion-route. I'm not trying to change that anxiety itself, just my response to it. So, I'm accepting of the anxiety, but exerting effort to redirect my thoughts from aversion to compassion both at once.
I think acceptance is underrated and under utilized. How can we let go of our faults if we haven't accepted our faults for what they are? Self acceptance (to include our faults, anxieties, and mistakes big and small) is SO important for mental health. If you can't take the cloudy pool of water for what it is, then it doesn't matter how still the water becomes or how crystal clear. It will never be useful if it is not known for its true self. (I think i got a bit over excited about the metaphor...I hope you'll forgive me.)
Acceptance does not mean acquiescence or hopelessness, it is more akin to understanding, empathy, self-compassion. @Glow explains it well as not firing a second arrow to exasperate the dukkha. Suffering is NOT OK or acceptable. It may be 'orrible but it is real and we have to accept the reality of it without further constriction and avoidance.
The nihilist approach is 'existence is a crock of shit', may as well drink myself to oblivion or eat myself into comfort or [insert unskilful escape route].
Trinity in 'The Matrix': Because you have been down there, Neo. You know that road. You know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be.
The Buddhist Middle Way is a plan. Develop and implement skilful behaviour. Suffering/dukkha lessens. Brilliant stuff!
It also doesn't work if you are like "ok I can trick this dukkha (by acceptance) and tomorrow it will be sukkha". That doesn't work it seems to me. The acceptance cannot be just a sort of motion to get to that sweet sukkha. Acceptance as a 'notion' doesn't trick the system somehow I find. It's interesting though. Does acceptance have a time frame? But if we just try acceptance I don't suppose it is a bad idea.. Just when we say "hey I tried acceptance and 'it didn't work'".. In that case it is like we are trying telekinesis and frustrated the spoon is not moving or bending.
So looking at what I said above you could say that I am like saying that you can't put this method to the test. So I could be saying that you cannot 'try acceptance' and test it like gold as the Buddha said to see if it works. But that's not what I am saying. I am saying something you can test and that something is that if 'acceptance' is just a 'trick' it won't work.
Actually Right Effort includes both of these, but I do think you have made some good points about how we can respond skillfully and compassionately to mental states that arise. The sort of compassionate acceptance you describe is itself a skillfull mental state, and therefore an example of applying Right Effort.
But focussing awareness on one aspect of experience inevitably involves less awareness on others, it's something we do all the time and it's often skilfull and appropriate. For example if we're driving our car we should focus our attention on the road ahead, that's a skillfull response.
So I still don't see how a focussing of attention relates to ignorance, unless it's done unmindfully.
Sure, but with this analogy the "effort" would be to stop the habitual moving and be still.
But nothing more than stopping movement would be required I think. (if the concept of stillness is propogated)
The challenge is to take that stillness off the cushion.
"Surf Wax America"
The sea is foaming like a bottle of beer
The wave is coming but I ain't got no fear
I'm waxing down so that I'll go real fast
I'm waxing down because it's really a blast
I'm going surfin cos I don't like your face
I'm bailing out because I hate the race
Of rats that run round and round in the maze
I'm going surfing, I'm going surfing!
You take your car to work
I'll take my board
And when you're out of fuel
I'm still afloat
My buddies and their honeys all come along
They seem invincible as they surf along
The sea is rolling like a thousand pound keg
We're going surfing, we're going surfing!
You take your car to work
I'll take my board
And when you're out of fuel
I'm still afloat
You take your car to work
I'll take my board
And when you're out of fuel
I'm still afloat
All along the undertow
Is strengthening it's hold
I never thought it would come to this
Now I can never go home
All along the undertow
Is strengthening it's hold
I never thought it would come to this
Now I can never go home
You take your car to work
I'll take my board
And when you're out of fuel
I'm still afloat
All along the undertow (you take your car to work)
Is strengthening it's hold (I'll take my board)
I never thought it would come to this (and when you're out of fuel)
Now I can never go home (I'm still afloat)
You take your car to work
I'll take my board
And when you're out of fuel
I'm still afloat
You take your car
I'll take my board
You take your car
I'll take my board
Let's go!
Or...you can always do this
have cushion will travel... 
franky mister shankly
"Frankly, Mr. Shankly"
Frankly, Mr Shankly, this position I've held
It pays my way and it corrodes my soul
I want to leave you will not miss me
I want to go down in musical history
Frankly, Mr Shankly, I'm a sickening wreck
I've got the 21st century breathing down my neck
I must move fast, you understand me
I want to go down in celluloid history Mr Shankly
Fame, fame, fatal fame
It can play hideous tricks on the brain
But still I rather be famous
Than righteous or holy, any day, any day, any day
But sometimes I'd feel more fulfilled
Making Christmas cards with the mentally ill
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of
Frankly, Mr Shankly, this position I've held
It pays my way and it corrodes my soul
Oh, I didn't realise that you wrote poetry
I didn't realise you wrote such bloody awful poetry Mr Shankly
Frankly, Mr Shankly, since you ask
You are a flatulent pain the arse
I do not mean to be so rude
But still, I must speak frankly, Mr Shankly, give us money
On a more serious note, I've found that by just acknowledging it, allows it to change of its own accord...no pressure applied...
There Is a Light That Never Goes Out
The Smiths
Take me out tonight
Where there's music and there's people
Who are young and alive
Driving in your car
I never never want to go home
Because I haven't got one anymore
Take me out tonight
Because I want to see people
And I want to see life
Driving in your car
Oh please don't drop me home
Because it's not my home, it's their home
And I'm welcome no more
And if a double-decker bus
Crashes in to us
To die by your side
Is such a heavenly way to die
And if a ten ton truck
Kills the both of us
To die by your side
Well the pleasure, the privilege is mine
Take me out tonight
Take me anywhere, I don't care
I don't care, I don't care
And in the darkened underpass
I thought Oh God, my chance has come at last
But then a strange fear gripped me
And I just couldn't ask
Take me… Full lyrics on Google Play
Then I guess I do both.
Interesting discussion. In hindsight I can see that I set up an artificial dichotomy in the OP. All the approaches we've been discussing can be viewed as examples of Right Effort, and compassionate acceptance is itself a skillfull mental state, something to be developed. Obviously there are different approaches in different schools, but I think the underlying principle can be seen wherever you look.
It seems to be fashionable in modern Buddhism to oversimplify, focussing just on mindfulness and viewing the other 8-fold path factors as somewhat superfluous. IMO this is rather missing the point.
@SpinyNorman I agree completely. I try to keep a list of the 8 somewhere in my line of vision at work so that I can remind myself to think on them in my most tested state of mind.
Sometimes my overwhelming anxiety grows directly out of my grotesque ego. If my mind isn't chewing on something, it'll tend to sniff out all kinds of things that are connected to the ego. It's tiring.
I went through a period of anxiety last year by fearing moving. Once that subsided, I began having anxiety over fear of death. Once that subsided, my anxiety moved to ego-based things, like "self"-perception, and perception by "others." It's been a pretty lame ride recently.
I think this is a terrific question. Do we accept what is going on in our minds, release it, go through it, go around it or grow through it? I am personally going through a time when I feel I am questioning my spirituality and feel anxious about its direction. I have been heavily involved in earthy shamanistic processes, hardcore Christian ministry, Reiki, and at varying times, a host of other things. What I am getting is that Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist. Each had to find their own way to the center and I will find my way too. When it comes down to it, it's not about me anyway.
I suspect the goal of meditation is just to rest in the now, let all that other stuff go, and learn to just be. But hey, I'm the new kid here.
I would appreciate your thoughts folks.
I am sure you have enough of your own, without my overstuffed mind meandering ...
Well said.
There it is in meditation, in all its gory glory - a mind fit for Nothing and certainly good for nothing in my case ...
Just watching it wriggle, wiggle, wobble, duck and dive ... and in time, strangest of all settle and become tame ... like a wild bull ...
http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm
A mind. Your mind, you have one? Not so, the mind has you - by the short and curlies ...
A Mind is not what you think
OM MANI PEME HUM
I used to think if I couldn't accept my current state of mind and deal with it then I was somehow a bad Buddhist. But now sometimes I think that to not change it is a bad thing. It all depends on what my state of mind is. Currently it's probably not one to just accept (as shown in another thread
) Today I've posted in my current mindset and not only am I a bad Buddhist, I'm a complete bitch 
Oh well.
^^^ I likes you @dhammachick
We can be sith-bitch-Buddhists?
I know, it can be exhausting, like there is always anxiety in the back-ground waiting to latch onto something. It's called "free-floating" anxiety I believe.
In the end you just have to smile at it and carry on anyway.