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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited June 2016
Aikido and tai chi are a bit 'different' from your average martial arts in that they emphasize defense (at least the aikido does) - I took a beginning course of aikido and enjoyed it a lot. If I'm not mistaken, our Buddha knew how to handle himself through the various things he was taught before leaving home. So, when he's been described as having a confident walk by various observers after his enlightenment, I feel it had more to do with his upbringing and schooling than with his enlightenment. fwiw
I box a little as it calms my anger. I also do it for self-defense. I don't think there's any conflict between martial arts and Buddhism! Just as with any activity, be mindful, I would say.
@IchLiebte said:
I box a little as it calms my anger.
Indeed.
One of the first things any fighter learns is to calm their fear/anger in order to be more effective. The recently deceased Muhammad Ali was calm, smart and aware and hence able.
I regard the traditional practice of martial arts to be deeply intertwined with Buddhism. To me, they are two sides of the same coin. The mind and body must both be trained, and their training complements one another.
@SpinyNorman said:
"Keeping out of harms way" would mean defending yourself and very likely causing harm to somebody else in the process.
At high levels of practice, you can defend yourself without causing injury. And I'd say that is the ultimate goal of a great martial artist.
@David said:
On a serious note, it's hard to find a style and teacher that is compatible with a Buddhist mindset where I am.
This is really the crux of the matter. I'd venture to say 95% of teachers lack a deep understanding of the root of martial arts. They teach fighting and call it martial arts. The style you learn is far less important than the philosophy that underpins it.
My litmus test? If the school doesn't practice meditation, run away.
@Linc said:> I regard the traditional practice of martial arts to be deeply intertwined with Buddhism. To me, they are two sides of the same coin. The mind and body must both be trained, and their training complements one another.
So what exactly do you mean by the "traditional" practice of martial arts? Could you give some contemporary examples?
I find it mystifying at how adept Buddhist practitioners can be at justifying just about anything they like doing by equating it to some confabulation of Buddhism.
Did the Buddha recommend moderation with
drug and intoxicant usage, animal butchery, dealing in weapons, slavery or fortune telling or did he simply say that these practices led to the creation of harmfulness.
Anybody want to explain what the Buddha's harmlessness might be?
Who's willing to give Buddhism a whirl with their big boy pants on?.
I find it mystifying at how adept Buddhist practitioners can be at justifying just about anything they like doing by equating it to some confabulation of Buddhism.
Did the Buddha recommend moderation with
drug and intoxicant usage, animal butchery, dealing in weapons, slavery or fortune telling or did he simply say that these practices led to the creation of harmfulness.
Anybody want to explain what the Buddha's harmlessness might be?
Who's willing to give Buddhism a whirl with their big boy pants on?.
Interesting and kuhl challenge, @how. But...are you vegan? You never imbibe at all? Never use any weapons? It's all neither here nor there, but I do believe Buddha would understand and have a tolerance for admirers of his in the future like us, warts and all. We may not be 7 years old and we may or may not wear our big boy/girl pants ... thank the lord or our lucky stars that he didn't have any stone tablets.
@Linc said:
At high levels of practice, you can defend yourself without causing injury. And I'd say that is the ultimate goal of a great martial artist.
Exactly so. When the Sari/robe/death shroud/pantless Buddha defended the situation from a maruading mad/drunk elephant he was using the highest expression of defensive training.
Calm, confident, equanimity can effect aggression and transform its potential from malign to benign. Advanced stuff but is the goal for some great martial artists.
@silver said:> Interesting and kuhl challenge, @how. But...are you vegan? You never imbibe at all? Never use any weapons?
Straw-man. The question is how compatible the goals of martial arts are with the goals of Buddhist practice. It seems to me that it very much depends on the type of martial art and the motivation behind it.
Are we really developing Right Intention when learning to punch and kick people? http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/right-intention.htm
If the aim of martial arts is "Self Defence" or to improve ones fitness...then it could squeeze into the "Do no Harm" bracket, but if one finds this somewhat difficult to uphold then it might just squeeze into the "Do the least harm possible" ....
Me....I'm a lover not a fighter...But it's "Different strokes for different folks" Each to their own...
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I find it mystifying at how adept Buddhist practitioners can be at justifying just about anything they like doing by equating it to some confabulation of Buddhism.
Did the Buddha recommend moderation with
drug and intoxicant usage, animal butchery, dealing in weapons, slavery or fortune telling or did he simply say that these practices led to the creation of harmfulness.
Anybody want to explain what the Buddha's harmlessness might be?
Who's willing to give Buddhism a whirl with their big boy pants on?.
Martial arts seems to bring out all the egos.
The path to the least harm is not letting yourself get beat up but nice try.
In fact it could be seen as idiot compassion.
Who's willing to defend their position without resorting to insults?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Linc said:
My litmus test? If the school doesn't practice meditation, run away.
Out of all the styles I tried, Karate was the only one that incorporated meditation but I was too young to see the benefits.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2016
@SpinyNorman said:
The question is how compatible the goals of martial arts are with the goals of Buddhist practice. It seems to me that it very much depends on the type of martial art and the motivation behind it.
I don't think anyone has argued against that point.
Are we really developing Right Intention when learning to punch and kick people?
If that is the motivation then obviously not. Developing self control, confidence, keeping fit, learning how to defend yourself and others... I don't see anything wrong there.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@lobster said:. Advanced stuff but is the goal for some great martial artists.
The vast majority of people who do martial arts are not "great" and don't do it as a spiritual practice. Again with the cliched romanticism.
Yes, well the vast majority of martial artists are not Buddhist either.
Since when are we talking about the vast majority of martial artists? This is about martial arts and Buddhism, not martial arts and the vast majority that are not Buddhist.
Well, many of the answers here have surprised me, and I agree with David that we seem to have brought out the egos.
For those (like me) who just don't get it and can't conjure a role for fighting/kicking/punching within Buddhism, there is perhaps an alternative but perhaps helpful question. We've been asking about the role of martial arts among Buddhist practitioners and arguing to an emotional stalemate. Maybe we should ponder ALL practitioners of martial arts, and then explore the impact of Buddhst teachings within that tiny subset.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
At least its not another thread about vegetarianism or hunting bringing the heat this time.
3
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I've had to change vocations recently as there just isn't access to health care benefits in the health care industry, ironically enough. I need the benefits for my daughter.
I bring it up because there are quite a few jobs I have to perform now where my martial arts study very much comes in handy.
So another plus is that it helps keep me mindful of body mechanics.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@silver said:> Interesting and kuhl challenge, @how. But...are you vegan? You never imbibe at all? Never use any weapons?
Straw-man. The question is how compatible the goals of martial arts are with the goals of Buddhist practice. It seems to me that it very much depends on the type of martial art and the motivation behind it.
Are we really developing Right Intention when learning to punch and kick people? http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/right-intention.htm
Okay straw man. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that when almost anyone goes to take a martial arts class, they're not imagining beating others to a bloody pulp while they're practicing. Parents send their youngsters to class for the exercise around here, and for their kiddos to learn a little self-defense which is a darned important thing in Life. I loved the movie, Karate Kid and the question Mr. Miyagi posed and the Kid's answer still ring in my ears. Miyagi: Why learn to fight? The Kid: So you don't have to fight. There's nothing quite so discouraging to would-be attackers and bullies than seeing that you can handle yourself.
@David said:
Martial arts seems to bring out all the egos.
My teacher would argue it is all about destruction of the ego. If it's all about ego, it's just fighting. And that'll get you ejected from my school.
@SpinyNorman said:
The vast majority of people who do martial arts are not "great" and don't do it as a spiritual practice. Again with the cliched romanticism.
If enough people were smoking weed and dancing in a field and calling it Buddhism, would that make it true? And would your view of Buddhism, your daily practice, then be cliche romanticism?
@SpinyNorman said:
So what exactly do you mean by the "traditional" practice of martial arts?
Having great respect for:
your teacher and the student-teacher relationship.
the space where you practice as a place of enlightenment.
traditional ceremony, insofar as it serves practice.
whom you practice with as a partner, not an opponent.
the discipline of the mind with the body.
We live in a world where MMA has captured the public mindshare and now cage fighting is seen as martial arts. That doesn't make it true.
I had and have many friends who are Buddhist and practice some form of martial arts.
Some adopted Buddhism through their Martial Arts, most (I can't speak for everybody), do it for either conditioning or sport with no intent to use it in battle (unless, of course, attacked - but only in self-defense). A cousin was recently honored with a tenth degree black belt in his school of jujitsu.
Martial arts, per se, does not conflict with Buddhist principles of doing no harm.
Much of martial arts training is in attitude and respect.
One school of Japanese swordsmanship is taught with the specific command never to use it against anyone. It is reputed that if it were used, it would be the deadliest form of swordsmanship in the world.
@Lionduck said:
Some adopted Buddhism through their Martial Arts, most (I can't speak for everybody), do it for either conditioning or sport with no intent to use it in battle (unless, of course, attacked - but only in self-defense).
We actually have trouble sparring in our dojo, because no one trains on how to attack. Most everything we do presupposes an attack already begun. Until we are more experienced we often have to use constructed exercises to make sure someone begins.
One oft-repeated aphorism in my school is that, when speaking of self-defense, we only really care about what could happen to you on the street, because you're never going to get into an actual fight with another martial artist!
While pure self-defense is really the lowest form of practice, speaking for myself only, I think it's a very valuable thing mentally. When you do not feel threatened, you perceive the world a little differently. It's easier to calm your mind when you have basic confidence about your physicality.
Sparring at a high level with someone who is, yes, trying to strike you - but no, not being aggressive - is extremely focusing. We speak of the idea of mushin, or "no-mind" in practice.
Some masters believe that mushin is the state where a person finally understands the uselessness of techniques and becomes truly free to move. In fact, those people will no longer even consider themselves as "fighters" but merely living beings moving through space.
The lessons you learn working with partners on the mats carry into your everyday lives. Sitting in meditation is a critical component of my practice as both a Buddhist and a martial artist, but I do not personally feel it completes the circle into the rest of my life without my experiences in the dojo.
The Buddha who was well trained in the martial arts as the younger Guatama, promoted no such practices for his own followers.
Anybody wonder why???????
The most interesting thing for me about this thread, is how ardently folks are willing to support the martial arts as a companion practice for Buddhism as opposed to
how few seemed willing to query even the possibility that it might not be so.
What do we call that which we are unwilling to question?
The OP who called himself a new Theravadin leaning Buddhist with interests in the martial arts, by the very fact he was willing to question those interests, demonstrated what I think is Buddhism with big pants on.
Our thread responses though are largely a demonstration of how little (after years of Buddhist practice) we are prepared to question any interests that we identify with.
That, in case anybody wondered, is what I'd call Buddhism with little pants on.
@how said:
That, in case anybody wondered, is what I'd call Buddhism with little pants on.
I don't think anyone missed your use the diminutive when referring to people who see a connection between them.
Nor do I think anyone is calling martial arts a part of Buddhism. And I'd even say if you walked into the nearest studio, chances are overwhelming that what you learned there wouldn't help you.
I think the study of true martial arts complements Buddhism well.
Indeed, but that's rather what we do around here now isn't it?
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
He may not have promoted it but he certainly didn't condemn it, either. This awake man - this our Buddha, would not because he'd know he could not condemn it on down the road like now. He didn't have any commandments although it seems like it to some.
I don't see anybody in this thread being um what you'd call protesting / arguing to any great degree in favor of martial arts because martial arts itself is mainly a practice of a certain skill set. I've never taken martial arts outside of a beginner's Aikido course. I hardly identify with it - whatever that means. I admire those who have the skills and it's all part of an imperfect world full of imperfect lives lived the best that people can.
So, the 'answer' to the OP's queries is and remains fluid - there is no pat answer.
I for one am grateful for having 'met' our Buddha man. From reading TNH's bio, Old Path White Clouds and having learned of his early life, I know that once he got past that incredibly stupid stage of trying to starve himself to reach some sort of 'enlightenment,' he got his old self back, fused together with his new awakened self. We're lucky enough to get to meet him through the printed word and I really don't think he'd have any major problems with how some of us see things - mainly because no one here is forwarding some sort of violent activity, per se!
your teacher and the student-teacher relationship.
the space where you practice as a place of enlightenment.
traditional ceremony, insofar as it serves practice.
whom you practice with as a partner, not an opponent.
the discipline of the mind with the body.
Two of my martial arts teachers were Buddhists, they both taught the above framework and the use of mushin you mention in another post.
Even though other styles and schools existed, I deliberately choose a Buddhist school that:
emphasised kata (set movement) as a form of meditation.
promoted a Buddhist ethos
offered further Buddhist practice for those interested
promoted the mind/body/spirit healing aspect of training
I became more interested in the wu-dang (Taoist) approach BUT in Tai Chi the martial aspect is not always apparent or taught. What is emphasised is the meditative and healing component. However the fighting/martial aspect is also present for those interested. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi#
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
The Buddha who was well trained in the martial arts as the younger Guatama, promoted no such practices for his own followers.
Anybody wonder why???????
The most interesting thing for me about this thread, is how ardently folks are willing to support the martial arts as a companion practice for Buddhism as opposed to
how few seemed willing to query even the possibility that it might not be so.
It isn't that odd. For some it makes a great companion and for some it doesn't.
What do we call that which we are unwilling to question?
I don't know. Who is unwilling to question?
The OP who called himself a new Theravadin leaning Buddhist with interests in the martial arts, by the very fact he was willing to question those interests, demonstrated what I think is Buddhism with big pants on.
Our thread responses though are largely a demonstration of how little (after years of Buddhist practice) we are prepared to question any interests that we identify with.
Actually, I doubt there's a single poster on this thread that hasn't. Because many don't agree with your stance doesn't imply otherwise.
That, in case anybody wondered, is what I'd call Buddhism with little pants on.
I'm pretty sure we all understood your insult but I'm wondering how long it will take you to see the irony of it.
@Shoshin
While I am not sure about the Buddhist Dharma and my own martial arts background, I do wish that there had been somebody close enough to the door in Orlando with the martial art skills to have stopped that massacre.
@silver said:> Interesting and kuhl challenge, @how. But...are you vegan? You never imbibe at all? Never use any weapons?
Straw-man. The question is how compatible the goals of martial arts are with the goals of Buddhist practice. It seems to me that it very much depends on the type of martial art and the motivation behind it.
Are we really developing Right Intention when learning to punch and kick people? http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/right-intention.htm
Okay straw man. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that when almost anyone goes to take a martial arts class, they're not imagining beating others to a bloody pulp while they're practicing. Parents send their youngsters to class for the exercise around here, and for their kiddos to learn a little self-defense which is a darned important thing in Life. I loved the movie, Karate Kid and the question Mr. Miyagi posed and the Kid's answer still ring in my ears. Miyagi: Why learn to fight? The Kid: So you don't have to fight. **There's nothing quite so discouraging to would-be attackers and bullies than seeing that you can handle yourself. **
This sums it up for me. There are bullies in this world, that's a fact. No getting around that. Bullies don't leave you alone because you follow the eightfold path. Bullies only understand confrontation, not diplomacy. So maybe in such cases we can follow the middle path - neither mindless aggression nor mindless pacifism.
@how said: @Shoshin
While I am not sure about the Buddhist Dharma and my own martial arts background, I do wish that there had been somebody close enough to the door in Orlando with the martial art skills to have stopped that massacre.
@federica said:
It seems there was an off-duty Police Officer in there firing back. Fat lot of good that did.
Those are extreme cases. Consider other instances. Bullying in schools is very common, at least in my part of the world. Suppose the victims fight back, maybe the bullies would back down. I am not saying it's certain, just suggesting it may be possible because usually the world doesn't protect victims. Victims have to fend for themselves.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Actually, I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, bullying at school can be taken as a criminal offence and the parents of said bully can be held liable for punitive damages and punished accordingly.
As to your comment about victims having to fend for themselves, I think the crowd tends to backs the underdog or little man.
At least, certainly that has been the case in my experience.
Even though the self-defensive retaliation may not have been on a physical level, for my part, I found different ways of defeating my bullies...
There are more ways to skin a cat....
@David said:
It always turned out to be a philosophical or moral disagreement I couldn't see past. One said I was going to hell "100%" for not accepting Jesus as my savour, lol.
That was kind of a drag as we'd been training for a few years at that point and I thought he was more accepting than that.
Plus, If you get good, many masters won't let you do it for yourself anymore and pester you to prance around in a space they rented at the mall.
Jeet Kune Do was gross and it was like they never cleaned the mat. Maybe it was incentive to stay on your feet but I couldn't get past it and after a month, I split.
I figure I just had the wrong teachers but I want my daughter to be able defend herself and get the mental benefits.
Ah, folks can get so buried under a script that they forget to think sometimes.... like.... what does being a Christian specifically have to do with martial arts any more than Buddhism would? In fact... the closest baby J got to martial arts was that whole tantrum with the money lenders bit.... I feel like he didn't have prior training in that situation.
By gross, you just mean the school was dirty? That's a total bummer because I find JKD interesting--a bit more centered on defense than offense, if I am remembering correctly? I have piddled about with basic self defense and found it difficult to get into the mindset I needed to be able to put people down. (so in turn I was the one who ended up on the mat! )
I've come to the conclusion that my only self defense would be to 1) run and hide... 2) scream like the fearful ninny I am... 3) talk my way out, which I'm not too bad at, actually. That being said... I think it's possible to navigate the physical reality of martial arts without ever being agressive mentally. I also agree that being trained doesn't necessarily equate being capable. It's all in how you do it... I mean, I could cut a loaf of bread with a cleaver like Yan Can Cook.... or I could gently pull it apart with my fingers.
There is phrase " If you are sane it does not mean everybody around you would be nice".
As a layman one has to protect oneself from arrogants who cross there lines.
Buddha never rejected self defence and punishing people who does violence.
" A better option might be tai chi, it's very difficult to hurt anyone unless they are moving in slow motion. "
Not a good statement, unless it was a joke. Tai Chi Chuan is a very effective Martial art!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Brownbuddha there are different interpretations of Tai Chi, which means, literally translated, 'Supreme Ultimate Boxing" but is in fact viewed in the West, predominantly, as a passive, slow meditative martial Art. Besides, in Japan, I believe the spelling is 'Qi', but nonetheless, translation may be one matter, but use and interpretation is quite another.
Comments
Aikido and tai chi are a bit 'different' from your average martial arts in that they emphasize defense (at least the aikido does) - I took a beginning course of aikido and enjoyed it a lot. If I'm not mistaken, our Buddha knew how to handle himself through the various things he was taught before leaving home. So, when he's been described as having a confident walk by various observers after his enlightenment, I feel it had more to do with his upbringing and schooling than with his enlightenment. fwiw
I box a little as it calms my anger. I also do it for self-defense. I don't think there's any conflict between martial arts and Buddhism! Just as with any activity, be mindful, I would say.
Indeed.
One of the first things any fighter learns is to calm their fear/anger in order to be more effective. The recently deceased Muhammad Ali was calm, smart and aware and hence able.
RIP.
Is it acceptable? It is in my home.
My son Kofi (13) is involved in Shotokan, and daughter Adjua (12) will soon begin Kendo.
They both also are invited and attend the Temple/Monastery with me.
We have had positive and negative experiences at both places.
If it's determined to be unacceptable.....shall I warn the children that the Dharma police are coming?
But I'm sure you learned to throw people in akido. As I observed earlier soft martial arts like this might be more appropriate.
You're on the list for a visit as it happens. And hide the booze and drugs!
I regard the traditional practice of martial arts to be deeply intertwined with Buddhism. To me, they are two sides of the same coin. The mind and body must both be trained, and their training complements one another.
At high levels of practice, you can defend yourself without causing injury. And I'd say that is the ultimate goal of a great martial artist.
This is really the crux of the matter. I'd venture to say 95% of teachers lack a deep understanding of the root of martial arts. They teach fighting and call it martial arts. The style you learn is far less important than the philosophy that underpins it.
My litmus test? If the school doesn't practice meditation, run away.
So what exactly do you mean by the "traditional" practice of martial arts? Could you give some contemporary examples?
What...are we all 7 years of age?
I find it mystifying at how adept Buddhist practitioners can be at justifying just about anything they like doing by equating it to some confabulation of Buddhism.
Did the Buddha recommend moderation with
drug and intoxicant usage, animal butchery, dealing in weapons, slavery or fortune telling or did he simply say that these practices led to the creation of harmfulness.
Anybody want to explain what the Buddha's harmlessness might be?
Who's willing to give Buddhism a whirl with their big boy pants on?.
Some people do seem to have a rather romanticised view, and there is a lot of rationalisation going on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts
Interesting and kuhl challenge, @how. But...are you vegan? You never imbibe at all? Never use any weapons? It's all neither here nor there, but I do believe Buddha would understand and have a tolerance for admirers of his in the future like us, warts and all. We may not be 7 years old and we may or may not wear our big boy/girl pants ... thank the lord or our lucky stars that he didn't have any stone tablets.
Exactly so. When the Sari/robe/death shroud/pantless Buddha defended the situation from a maruading mad/drunk elephant he was using the highest expression of defensive training.
Calm, confident, equanimity can effect aggression and transform its potential from malign to benign. Advanced stuff but is the goal for some great martial artists.
Straw-man. The question is how compatible the goals of martial arts are with the goals of Buddhist practice. It seems to me that it very much depends on the type of martial art and the motivation behind it.
Are we really developing Right Intention when learning to punch and kick people?
http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/right-intention.htm
The vast majority of people who do martial arts are not "great" and don't do it as a spiritual practice. Again with the cliched romanticism.
If the aim of martial arts is "Self Defence" or to improve ones fitness...then it could squeeze into the "Do no Harm" bracket, but if one finds this somewhat difficult to uphold then it might just squeeze into the "Do the least harm possible" ....
Me....I'm a lover not a fighter...But it's "Different strokes for different folks" Each to their own...
Martial arts seems to bring out all the egos.
The path to the least harm is not letting yourself get beat up but nice try.
In fact it could be seen as idiot compassion.
Who's willing to defend their position without resorting to insults?
Out of all the styles I tried, Karate was the only one that incorporated meditation but I was too young to see the benefits.
I don't think anyone has argued against that point.
If that is the motivation then obviously not. Developing self control, confidence, keeping fit, learning how to defend yourself and others... I don't see anything wrong there.
Yes, well the vast majority of martial artists are not Buddhist either.
Since when are we talking about the vast majority of martial artists? This is about martial arts and Buddhism, not martial arts and the vast majority that are not Buddhist.
Sure, but only when they attacked you. And deflecting someones attack doesn't need to involve any ill will. Ill will is an entirely mental phenomenon!
I'm acting like a 7 yr old ? It's fundamentally wrong, therefore, I just want to do what I want to do and justify it?
Ouch. You came hard with that, didn't you?
Excuse me, bowing out.
Well, many of the answers here have surprised me, and I agree with David that we seem to have brought out the egos.
For those (like me) who just don't get it and can't conjure a role for fighting/kicking/punching within Buddhism, there is perhaps an alternative but perhaps helpful question. We've been asking about the role of martial arts among Buddhist practitioners and arguing to an emotional stalemate. Maybe we should ponder ALL practitioners of martial arts, and then explore the impact of Buddhst teachings within that tiny subset.
At least its not another thread about vegetarianism or hunting bringing the heat this time.
I've had to change vocations recently as there just isn't access to health care benefits in the health care industry, ironically enough. I need the benefits for my daughter.
I bring it up because there are quite a few jobs I have to perform now where my martial arts study very much comes in handy.
So another plus is that it helps keep me mindful of body mechanics.
Even taking somebody down hard doesn't have to invoke any Ill will.
Okay straw man. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that when almost anyone goes to take a martial arts class, they're not imagining beating others to a bloody pulp while they're practicing. Parents send their youngsters to class for the exercise around here, and for their kiddos to learn a little self-defense which is a darned important thing in Life. I loved the movie, Karate Kid and the question Mr. Miyagi posed and the Kid's answer still ring in my ears. Miyagi: Why learn to fight? The Kid: So you don't have to fight. There's nothing quite so discouraging to would-be attackers and bullies than seeing that you can handle yourself.
I was hoping to use my martial skill to hunt out the vegans ... and eat them
Meanwhile ... for the more focussed ...
Taoist martial arts meditation
http://ymaa.com/articles/why-meditation-is-important-in-martial-arts
Meditation for martial artists
http://hubpages.com/sports/Meditation-Techniques-for-Martial-Artists
Spiritual Dimension of the Martial arts
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/the-spiritual-dimensions-of-the-martial-arts
My teacher would argue it is all about destruction of the ego. If it's all about ego, it's just fighting. And that'll get you ejected from my school.
If enough people were smoking weed and dancing in a field and calling it Buddhism, would that make it true? And would your view of Buddhism, your daily practice, then be cliche romanticism?
Having great respect for:
We live in a world where MMA has captured the public mindshare and now cage fighting is seen as martial arts. That doesn't make it true.
Grasshopper
I had and have many friends who are Buddhist and practice some form of martial arts.
Some adopted Buddhism through their Martial Arts, most (I can't speak for everybody), do it for either conditioning or sport with no intent to use it in battle (unless, of course, attacked - but only in self-defense). A cousin was recently honored with a tenth degree black belt in his school of jujitsu.
Martial arts, per se, does not conflict with Buddhist principles of doing no harm.
Much of martial arts training is in attitude and respect.
One school of Japanese swordsmanship is taught with the specific command never to use it against anyone. It is reputed that if it were used, it would be the deadliest form of swordsmanship in the world.
We actually have trouble sparring in our dojo, because no one trains on how to attack.
Most everything we do presupposes an attack already begun. Until we are more experienced we often have to use constructed exercises to make sure someone begins.
One oft-repeated aphorism in my school is that, when speaking of self-defense, we only really care about what could happen to you on the street, because you're never going to get into an actual fight with another martial artist!
While pure self-defense is really the lowest form of practice, speaking for myself only, I think it's a very valuable thing mentally. When you do not feel threatened, you perceive the world a little differently. It's easier to calm your mind when you have basic confidence about your physicality.
Sparring at a high level with someone who is, yes, trying to strike you - but no, not being aggressive - is extremely focusing. We speak of the idea of mushin, or "no-mind" in practice.
The lessons you learn working with partners on the mats carry into your everyday lives. Sitting in meditation is a critical component of my practice as both a Buddhist and a martial artist, but I do not personally feel it completes the circle into the rest of my life without my experiences in the dojo.
The Buddha who was well trained in the martial arts as the younger Guatama, promoted no such practices for his own followers.
Anybody wonder why???????
The most interesting thing for me about this thread, is how ardently folks are willing to support the martial arts as a companion practice for Buddhism as opposed to
how few seemed willing to query even the possibility that it might not be so.
What do we call that which we are unwilling to question?
The OP who called himself a new Theravadin leaning Buddhist with interests in the martial arts, by the very fact he was willing to question those interests, demonstrated what I think is Buddhism with big pants on.
Our thread responses though are largely a demonstration of how little (after years of Buddhist practice) we are prepared to question any interests that we identify with.
That, in case anybody wondered, is what I'd call Buddhism with little pants on.
I don't think anyone missed your use the diminutive when referring to people who see a connection between them.
Nor do I think anyone is calling martial arts a part of Buddhism. And I'd even say if you walked into the nearest studio, chances are overwhelming that what you learned there wouldn't help you.
I think the study of true martial arts complements Buddhism well.
Indeed, but that's rather what we do around here now isn't it?
He may not have promoted it but he certainly didn't condemn it, either. This awake man - this our Buddha, would not because he'd know he could not condemn it on down the road like now. He didn't have any commandments although it seems like it to some.
I don't see anybody in this thread being um what you'd call protesting / arguing to any great degree in favor of martial arts because martial arts itself is mainly a practice of a certain skill set. I've never taken martial arts outside of a beginner's Aikido course. I hardly identify with it - whatever that means. I admire those who have the skills and it's all part of an imperfect world full of imperfect lives lived the best that people can.
So, the 'answer' to the OP's queries is and remains fluid - there is no pat answer.
I for one am grateful for having 'met' our Buddha man. From reading TNH's bio, Old Path White Clouds and having learned of his early life, I know that once he got past that incredibly stupid stage of trying to starve himself to reach some sort of 'enlightenment,' he got his old self back, fused together with his new awakened self. We're lucky enough to get to meet him through the printed word and I really don't think he'd have any major problems with how some of us see things - mainly because no one here is forwarding some sort of violent activity, per se!
Practising Martial arts... Damned if ya do and Damned if ya don't ! Damned if I know the answer.....
Two of my martial arts teachers were Buddhists, they both taught the above framework and the use of mushin you mention in another post.
Even though other styles and schools existed, I deliberately choose a Buddhist school that:
I became more interested in the wu-dang (Taoist) approach BUT in Tai Chi the martial aspect is not always apparent or taught. What is emphasised is the meditative and healing component. However the fighting/martial aspect is also present for those interested.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi#
It isn't that odd. For some it makes a great companion and for some it doesn't.
I don't know. Who is unwilling to question?
Actually, I doubt there's a single poster on this thread that hasn't. Because many don't agree with your stance doesn't imply otherwise.
I'm pretty sure we all understood your insult but I'm wondering how long it will take you to see the irony of it.
Perhaps some people's pathway to the Dharma is through martial arts practice...
Karma works in mysterious ways.... so I have heard...
@Shoshin
While I am not sure about the Buddhist Dharma and my own martial arts background, I do wish that there had been somebody close enough to the door in Orlando with the martial art skills to have stopped that massacre.
This sums it up for me. There are bullies in this world, that's a fact. No getting around that. Bullies don't leave you alone because you follow the eightfold path. Bullies only understand confrontation, not diplomacy. So maybe in such cases we can follow the middle path - neither mindless aggression nor mindless pacifism.
Akido! Because it offers a way to defend yourself without harming the person attacking you
Don't we all @how ...don't we all ....
It seems there was an off-duty Police Officer in there firing back. Fat lot of good that did.
Those are extreme cases. Consider other instances. Bullying in schools is very common, at least in my part of the world. Suppose the victims fight back, maybe the bullies would back down. I am not saying it's certain, just suggesting it may be possible because usually the world doesn't protect victims. Victims have to fend for themselves.
Actually, I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, bullying at school can be taken as a criminal offence and the parents of said bully can be held liable for punitive damages and punished accordingly.
As to your comment about victims having to fend for themselves, I think the crowd tends to backs the underdog or little man.
At least, certainly that has been the case in my experience.
Even though the self-defensive retaliation may not have been on a physical level, for my part, I found different ways of defeating my bullies...
There are more ways to skin a cat....
Ah, folks can get so buried under a script that they forget to think sometimes.... like.... what does being a Christian specifically have to do with martial arts any more than Buddhism would? In fact... the closest baby J got to martial arts was that whole tantrum with the money lenders bit.... I feel like he didn't have prior training in that situation.
By gross, you just mean the school was dirty? That's a total bummer because I find JKD interesting--a bit more centered on defense than offense, if I am remembering correctly? I have piddled about with basic self defense and found it difficult to get into the mindset I needed to be able to put people down. (so in turn I was the one who ended up on the mat!
)
I've come to the conclusion that my only self defense would be to 1) run and hide... 2) scream like the fearful ninny I am... 3) talk my way out, which I'm not too bad at, actually. That being said... I think it's possible to navigate the physical reality of martial arts without ever being agressive mentally. I also agree that being trained doesn't necessarily equate being capable. It's all in how you do it... I mean, I could cut a loaf of bread with a cleaver like Yan Can Cook.... or I could gently pull it apart with my fingers.
Aikido is more defensive, but there is a lot of throwing people around which can be quite dangerous.
There is phrase " If you are sane it does not mean everybody around you would be nice".
As a layman one has to protect oneself from arrogants who cross there lines.
Buddha never rejected self defence and punishing people who does violence.
" A better option might be tai chi, it's very difficult to hurt anyone unless they are moving in slow motion.
"
Not a good statement, unless it was a joke. Tai Chi Chuan is a very effective Martial art!
@Brownbuddha there are different interpretations of Tai Chi, which means, literally translated, 'Supreme Ultimate Boxing" but is in fact viewed in the West, predominantly, as a passive, slow meditative martial Art. Besides, in Japan, I believe the spelling is 'Qi', but nonetheless, translation may be one matter, but use and interpretation is quite another.