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The proof of the Dharma/pudding is in its eating/practice... I guess one could say the Dharma goes beyond the confines of sex & gender it transcends both ie, trans-gender and trans-sexual ....
Hence why I feel when it comes to practising the Dharma one's sex or gender should be seen as Nothing Special
The proof of the Dharma/pudding is in its eating/practice... I guess one could say the Dharma goes beyond the confines of sex & gender it transcends both ie, trans-gender and trans-sexual ....
Hence why I feel when it comes to practising the Dharma one's sex or gender should be seen as Nothing Special
@silver said:
We do often speak in very broad terms (pardon that potential pun), so, I just want to say that I wasn't dismissing it, just a warning of sorts. It's too easy to see just how touchy a subject sex is. I want to suggest that people take up an appropriate form of self defense for one. Staying on an even keel in all ways as much as possible - physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually is of the utmost importance in Life.
To stay on an even keel, we have to do exactly that -- keep it even. I don't interpret any of this as one group being better than another, but rather trying to sat that we are equals. It's just that even though some comments may have been well-intentioned, ultimately they served the centuries-long purpose of elevating men above women. I don't believe anyone overreacted. Just reacted -- against language that breeds oppression and inequality.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
@silver said:
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
What makes you think you do?
We could go round and round in circles till we fall down dizzy and still not "get" each other.
Some agree, some disagree and some were misquoted.
That's life. Continuing the argument or "debate" in the guise of wanting to understand gets us nowhere.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I didn't say that I think that I do understand everybody on this issue.
Am I the only one 'continuing the argument or 'debate' in the guise of wanting to understand?'
Um...I do believe we're not getting anywhere - regardless.
Am I the only one 'continuing the argument or 'debate' in the guise of wanting to understand?'
I don't know, are you? Because from my end of the keyboard it sure seems so. If I'm wrong, great. I hope I am actually.
Um...I do believe we're not getting anywhere - regardless.
No we're not. I think @federica pointed out rather well earlier that
But if some women take offence, it is not for you to insist they shouldn't be. They gave >reason. And there was nothing wrong with that reason, you simply took it differently.
Everybody's contribution is as a result of their conditioning and experience.
I think that's pretty clear. Agree to disagree. Some women hold different views to you. Whoop-de-doo. It's not the end of the world. No one has to justify it (you included).
And if I sound frustrated or pissed off - it's because I am, just to clarify.
@silver said:
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
Why do you feel the need to disagree any further? What are you trying to argue about?
For my own part, I wasn't over-reacting Sometimes my words might come across that way, but if I have strong emotional feelings about a topic, I try to avoid discussing it until I take a break and a breath. I most certainly overreact sometimes, but in this case, just sharing experiences and thoughts about them. The current climate about women, sex, rape and all that intertwines with it is a difficult place in many ways. It always has been, but it seems worse right now. Perhaps because of Trump's rhetoric that he is spreading and embolden people to speak about when before they didn't feel comfortable sharing such views. And because helping my sons navigate it at each phase of their lives is challenging as well, so I have to straddle my world and experiences with the world they are going into.
I was raised to believe that bad things only happen to bad girls. That if you talk, dress, act, and behave nicely, then bad things won't happen. You won't get raped if you dress right. You won't get beat if you are nice to your boyfriend, so never push him or challenge him and give him reason to hurt you. It's been a lot of work to do away with having that hammered into my upbringing most of my life (even well into adulthood). I am still looking for the right balance of it all, and trying to raise my sons at the same time.
I don't want them to think there is ANY excuse why they might mistreat a woman (or any other person). That their sexuality is theirs to control, 100% their responsibility. And sometimes, if their partner is drunk or whatever, then the responsibility for her safety and well being may fall on them, too. No matter how much a girl teases them, promises them or leaves them hanging at the last second, she never owes him a thing. So yes, while I do understand there are sexual addictions, those are not what I am talking about.
To me, to hear so many men say "you just don't understand how strong our sex drive is" is a big, fat, lame excuse. We have different sex drives, and probably for different reasons. But if they expect me to see their side and try to understand the spot they are in, then I expect the same of them. But it never works that way. They want us to understand their high sex drive, but they don't really look to understand how the way they talk makes us feel. When it's the reason why they cheat, it's why they take advantage of drunk women, it's why they text pictures of their genitals to women they know...their huge sex drives seem pretty convenient to blame for a lack of control. Their claim of so little control does little to make us feel better and it definitely can contribute to mistrust. Not talking about Boru here, just in general when the topic has come up here and elsewhere.
Sorry to keep carrying on. Apparently, it's a topic that's been on my mind a lot.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
It's a topic that is on a whole lotta minds because it never gets 'fixed' - I think we can do more than just dream about 'the day' that miracle could happen - 'good' (meaning rational, reasonable) people tend to not be given credit because of others' reactionary behavior when it comes to talking about 'it'. It seems like a reverse prudishness or something. So for me, it just seems like we're forever stuck marching in place. I sure hope someone out there understands what I'm trying to say.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@silver said:
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
Why do you feel the need to disagree any further? What are you trying to argue about?
@silver said:
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
Why do you feel the need to disagree any further? What are you trying to argue about?
Okay, who had @silver in 6 rounds on points in the pool? Shake hands and back to the locker room. I think it was a close call.
Honestly, folks. Well, being special doesn't mean being enlightened. Another thing I like about this forum is that people don't get upset at each other's posts to the point they say they're going to take their keyboard and go home.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited August 2016
@karasti said:
When it's the reason why they cheat, it's why they take advantage of drunk women, it's why they text pictures of their genitals to women they know...their huge sex drives seem pretty convenient to blame for a lack of control. Their claim of so little control does little to make us feel better and it definitely can contribute to mistrust.
I can totally understand how such behaviour comes across as very creepy, that it sticks in the mind and that it seems oppressive. Apologies on behalf of the male gender. But in the interests of lending a little balance to the conversation, I think (hope... believe...) that such men are a minority. Certainly in my life experience I have known very few men who would do such things, and the few of whom I'd say "perhaps they might" are mental health condition sufferers.
Personally I've never engaged in cheating, anything remotely like "taking advantage" or texted a picture of my genitals to anyone. I've actually had very few intimate relationships in my life, for various reasons. It's been a mixed blessing, or curse, certainly something that has shaped my life.
For me it's about respect. Your mother gave life to you, she cared for you, she deserves your respect, and with that same respect you should approach all women. It's a mystery to me how some men get from there to texting pictures of their genitals to strangers. And a lot of men I know share that attitude.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Saw this on my Fb feed this morning (posted by a friend in the USA, who has three young daughters, all of whom apparently, have experienced similar treatment) and thought of this discussion.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@federica said:
Saw this on my Fb feed this morning (posted by a friend in the USA, who has three young daughters, all of whom apparently, have experienced similar treatment) and thought of this discussion.
THIS. I saw this a while ago and it really hit home to me. This should be seen by everyone because it really explains, rather powerfully, why pushing aside women who "nag" about bad behaviour is the wrong thing to do. Every primary school should show this and discuss it regularly.
This isn't making anyone 'look so special'.
Tit for tat is just your ego trying to win.
Take a tea break or a walk away. It's not that serious.
Oh yes it is.
The subject of sexism and fear of sexual attacks is serious....yes! I was just thinking that arguing back and forth in a particular place that it isn't a problem was kinda futile. Venting and bringing the problem to light always helps....not sure arguing about arguing does...Perhaps I stepped in and spoke when it wasn't warranted. My bad.
@federica said:
And this, given our own common sense, level-headedness and rationale, is astonishing, but apparently (sadly) not surprising.
Thier logo reminds me of another Southpark reference,.. But a monk is too dignified to post it lol, well at least that's what I have to tell myself. @SpinyNorman might know though.
@Kerome I'm grateful your experience is so positive. I'm sure some of it is, as usual, the culture we've created in the US. I am not sure I can think of a single woman who hasn't been cheated on, and many (probably 50% of my friends, at least those willing to talk about it) have been abused in some way by their past partners. And somehow we have gotten into this place where the men who behave this way, are not held responsible. Not legally and not by society in other ways. We find anyone to blame but them for their choices. We blame their sex drive, we blame their upbringing, we blame movies and music, we blame porn. Those things might all contribute but when does their behavior become their responsibility?
Just the other day, another college guy who raped a semi-unconscious woman was let off with probation. Part of his lawyer's argument was that he's already suffering enough because he'll have to be a biochemist instead of being able to be a doctor because of his conviction. It's been a theme in our justice system for a while now. No accountability. Rape trials are traumatic in themselves, and our court system is continuing to send a message to women not to even bother reporting the crime.
@federica interesting article on Korea, thanks for sharing that, I hadn't seen it. How dare women challenge the idea that we need men to save us. I have seen the video before as well, and I agree, it should be part of sex ed requirements, or something similar.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
And this, given our own common sense, level-headedness and rationale, is astonishing, but apparently (sadly) not surprising.
Read the article, it is good that these issues get publicity and people get the message that it's not acceptable. The gamergate issues in particular I think are worrisome because it's another trend among young people. I mean, my generation grew up with Sesame Street and Donkey Kong, and these days they get Bayonetta and fan service everywhere? The term fan service didn't even properly exist when I was watching cartoons.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
There's a million different aspects of this problem, so as I was thinking about it this morning, what seemed like a valid question about those who responded heatedly and negatively to my comments is why treat anyone like they're the enemy?
I have to chuckle at the thought that I had following that and that is, that WWBD seems to have become my favorite meaningful phrase (what would Buddha do?). What came to mind was the story about him confronting (and not in the modern sense) the most dangerous, murderous man that everybody else was afraid of and he managed that situation in a most amazing fashion. With this sex/gender/violence/etc. problem, it seems there's more crazy people than sane sometimes.
We all sometimes react/respond with righteous indignation, but how well it serves us is another matter.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Could you show me where people responded 'heatedly and negatively' to your comments?
Trust me on this: The discussion has been akin to a standard, well-mannered and even-tempered debate.
I have seen 'heated and negative' and believe me, as a Moderator, this was absolutely nothing like it. Nobody treated you like an enemy @silver.
It's ok to disagree with people. There was no name-calling, no insult, no anger and no heat.
Seems a bit like the monk carrying the woman across the stream to me.
She was put down ages ago.
You're still carrying her, are you....?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited August 2016
No, it's not like that. Did I say there was name-calling, etc? You think I haven't spent an inordinate amount of my time on forums? There was some heat but I didn't say it was excessive or anything like that. Where was the debate? To me, a debate doesn't qualify unless people actually get somewhere. I know it's okay to disagree with people. My only hurt is what goes on in the world. I do believe you're making assumptions that aren't valid.
I just wanted to say, I appreciate what you've been saying @silver This is a heated topic, and sometimes people don't step back, and try to understand where the other side is coming from.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@silver said:
No, it's not like that. Did I say there was name-calling, etc?
No, I did. That's what happens when people get heated and negative. I'm pointing out that that didn't happen...
You think I haven't spent an inordinate amount of my time on forums?
I have no idea. I do know you spend a long time on this one, and this one, for me, is a benchmark of how people SHOULD behave on forums...
There was some heat but I didn't say it was excessive or anything like that. Where was the debate? To me, a debate doesn't qualify unless people actually get somewhere.
No, not really. A Debate is defined as 'a formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.' I think that covers it... And you mentioned 'treating someone like the enemy', not I.
I know it's okay to disagree with people. My only hurt is what goes on in the world. I do believe you're making assumptions that aren't valid.
You're the one who brought this up. Again. I'm just going by what you wrote, and responding to it.
So what is your point then?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Ok. I contend that the people who did seem to disagree with whatever they think I said/meant are overreacting - IF their purpose is to make real change in the world. I see what they said as just spinning our wheels - yes our as in the people who want to change the world. I saw hostility towards men in general in some of what was said, which is hardly appropriate to the situation (probably should start another thread about all this).
All people need to have a forum in which to air whatever they have to say about it all. A safe place, in all ways.
@Dhammachick and @IchLiebte both expressed that they were angry or words to that effect, so there's that. I'm not bothered much by that, fwiw. I'm just not quite sure WHY.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Walker said:
I just wanted to say, I appreciate what you've been saying @silver This is a heated topic, and sometimes people don't step back, and try to understand where the other side is coming from.
@silver One time my mom was dropping me off at a community college class and a guy wouldn't leave me alone, even though I was visibly uncomfortable. I kept walking away and he followed me. Finally I was able to pull myself away from him and run into class. The guy clung to my mom as she walked to the other side of the entire campus, asking creepy, sexual questions about me. To my mother. When she got to the car, he wrote our license plate number down...
I could go on about incidents like this, I have more, but can you just please for a second imagine living like this? It's not an overreaction when the commonplace makes you feel subhuman. I'm not mad at you.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Walker said:
I just wanted to say, I appreciate what you've been saying @silver This is a heated topic, and sometimes people don't step back, and try to understand where the other side is coming from.
I would second that. It is a difficult and many-sided topic, but I appreciate the hypothetical extremes where some women rightly get very wound up over it, while others go too far and start seeing rapists around every corner, and could do with being told to just calm down and take some deep breaths.
@Walker said:
I just wanted to say, I appreciate what you've been saying @silver This is a heated topic, and sometimes people don't step back, and try to understand where the other side is coming from.
I would second that. It is a difficult and many-sided topic, but I appreciate the hypothetical extremes where some women rightly get very wound up over it, while others go too far and start seeing rapists around every corner, and could do with being told to just calm down and take some deep breaths.
It isn't a many-sided topic. There are two sides. Misogyny and equality. And there are rapists around every corner.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@IchLiebte said: @silver One time my mom was dropping me off at a community college class and a guy wouldn't leave me alone, even though I was visibly uncomfortable. I kept walking away and he followed me. Finally I was able to pull myself away from him and run into class. The guy clung to my mom as she walked to the other side of the entire campus, asking creepy, sexual questions about me. To my mother. When she got to the car, he wrote our license plate number down...
I could go on about incidents like this, I have more, but can you just please for a second imagine living like this? It's not an overreaction when the commonplace makes you feel subhuman. I'm not mad at you.
Thank you for sharing your experience...you're not alone. For me, I think of 'There but for the grace of god, go I,' and what do you think all the truly good men out there feel when they hear horror stories like this? We should all try to imagine the good ones that these stories would bring tears to their eyes and less attention to the creeps - who wouldn't be creeps if society were more inclusive.
What happened with your mom is why I say everybody as much as possible should learn some sort of self-defense. Be more assertive in everyday life...believe me, it's a challenge for me. Maybe by the time I'm 100, I'll be right-on target.
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@IchLiebte said:
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
That's literally a crying shame, although I'm unsure why you think self-defense wouldn't have helped her (or anybody else in that position). Its a real puzzler to me. How old were you, if you don't mind me asking? And I have no idea what your idea is of 'cutting the problem off at the source.'
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@IchLiebte said:
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
Very sorry to hear of your experiences, I too have family members who have had similar things happen to them. But from what I have heard, usually they are once or twice in a lifetime events. There really aren't rapists around every corner, although they are more frequent than we would wish and rape should be punished more severely and regularly.
@IchLiebte said:
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
That's literally a crying shame, although I'm unsure why you think self-defense wouldn't have helped her (or anybody else in that position). Its a real puzzler to me. How old were you, if you don't mind me asking? And I have no idea what your idea is of 'cutting the problem off at the source.'
I was 14. She didn't want to make any noise through self-defense because it happened so fast. I mean cut it off at the source by discouraging rape in society, that is, being more socially aware that there are "rapists around every corner", as @Kerome put it. To see someone say that there aren't is a blow to the gut and shows just how in-the-dark men can be about this. Cutting the problem off at the source means teaching men not to rape, teaching them that they don't have a "higher sex drive" that they can do nothing about.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@IchLiebte said:
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
That's literally a crying shame, although I'm unsure why you think self-defense wouldn't have helped her (or anybody else in that position). Its a real puzzler to me. How old were you, if you don't mind me asking? And I have no idea what your idea is of 'cutting the problem off at the source.'
I was 14. She didn't want to make any noise through self-defense because it happened so fast. I mean cut it off at the source by discouraging rape in society, that is, being more socially aware that there are "rapists around every corner", as @Kerome put it. To see someone say that there aren't is a blow to the gut and shows just how in-the-dark men can be about this. Cutting the problem off at the source means teaching men not to rape, teaching them that they don't have a "higher sex drive" that they can do nothing about.
Just for the record, 99% of the time, I am not having any sort of emotional reaction to anything here. I've learned that for me, if i am feeling riled, I need to leave and not respond until later (if ever). So at any point if you/whoever think I am upset, angry, or whathave you, it's likely untrue. I might use strong words but always remember that with anyone, text only is a very poor medium to carry on any meaningful discussion.
I often don't know what to do about the big problems in the world. But I do know from experience that discussions and conversations DO make a difference. And when just one person can see a topic from another point of view, especially one they are emotionally tied to, that is how change starts. I've seen it happen. In myself and in many others. So "just talking" about something IS changing things sometimes. The only other thing I can do is try to impact my corner of the world by sending kids out there who hopefully have a better sense of these things and how to treat others, and to teach them how to see other perspectives. Most of the time, I don't know what else to do on a broad scale such as this group represents, beyond discussing it.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited August 2016
Hormones deeply affect both sexes desires. It seems apparent to me that biology plays a larger factor in how much a person thinks about sex rather than character. How that gets channeled after that then I feel is where character, culture and norms come in. Just because you have a strong lust to copulate in no way should justify creeping or rape. This also brings to mind the distinction between explanation and justification. Using testosterone as a partial explanation for bad male behavior isn't the same as using it as a justification.
@Dhammachick and @IchLiebte both expressed that they were angry or words to that effect, so there's that. I'm not bothered much by that, fwiw. I'm just not quite sure WHY.
Frustrated and pissed off were my exact words. Then I bowed out because like you said, we were getting nowhere. And you're still missing my point by dragging me back into the discussion. I was/am getting again, frustrated at you not letting go simply because you cannot fathom other women don't have your POV.
I don't give a flying frack in a rolling donut that we disagree. I did when your tone/demeanour came across as argumentative because I and others disagreed. You claim that was not the case so I left it at that. Could you kindly do the same in regards to me on this topic?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I don't care if we or anyone else disagrees as well. So what's the big deal. Just because I was talking to @Federica, simply mentioning that YESTERDAY, you and someone else (and maybe one or two others) were bristling over something(s) I said in the conversation in this particular thread.
I didn't say anything negative about you, I just said as a matter of fact, you were one of the people who got upset - and I realize that it was YESTERDAY. Why do you view it and choose to describe it as me purportedly 'dragging' you back into the convo? I'm not. Sheesh.
Comments
I wholeheartedly agree. That really can apply to everything...
Everything in Moderation: Including Moderation.
Regardless of whether one is cisgender transgender bigender androgynous asexual bisexual homosexual heterosexual
The proof of the Dharma/pudding is in its eating/practice... I guess one could say the Dharma goes beyond the confines of sex & gender it transcends both ie, trans-gender and trans-sexual ....
Hence why I feel when it comes to practising the Dharma one's sex or gender should be seen as Nothing Special
Well said @Shoshin as a non gender related semi sentient species having claws or not, does not effect my alleged Bodhiy Nurture ...
Excellent point - for us Buddhists.
To stay on an even keel, we have to do exactly that -- keep it even. I don't interpret any of this as one group being better than another, but rather trying to sat that we are equals. It's just that even though some comments may have been well-intentioned, ultimately they served the centuries-long purpose of elevating men above women. I don't believe anyone overreacted. Just reacted -- against language that breeds oppression and inequality.
I'm glad you don't view one 'group' being better than the other, @IchLiebte. Why would you question those who are simply expressing themselves based on their own personal life experiences? What makes you think you have the full understanding of what they're saying?
What makes you think you do?
We could go round and round in circles till we fall down dizzy and still not "get" each other.
Some agree, some disagree and some were misquoted.
That's life. Continuing the argument or "debate" in the guise of wanting to understand gets us nowhere.
I didn't say that I think that I do understand everybody on this issue.
Am I the only one 'continuing the argument or 'debate' in the guise of wanting to understand?'
Um...I do believe we're not getting anywhere - regardless.
I don't know, are you? Because from my end of the keyboard it sure seems so. If I'm wrong, great. I hope I am actually.
No we're not. I think @federica pointed out rather well earlier that
I think that's pretty clear. Agree to disagree. Some women hold different views to you. Whoop-de-doo. It's not the end of the world. No one has to justify it (you included).
And if I sound frustrated or pissed off - it's because I am, just to clarify.
Why do you feel the need to disagree any further? What are you trying to argue about?
For my own part, I wasn't over-reacting
Sometimes my words might come across that way, but if I have strong emotional feelings about a topic, I try to avoid discussing it until I take a break and a breath. I most certainly overreact sometimes, but in this case, just sharing experiences and thoughts about them. The current climate about women, sex, rape and all that intertwines with it is a difficult place in many ways. It always has been, but it seems worse right now. Perhaps because of Trump's rhetoric that he is spreading and embolden people to speak about when before they didn't feel comfortable sharing such views. And because helping my sons navigate it at each phase of their lives is challenging as well, so I have to straddle my world and experiences with the world they are going into.
I was raised to believe that bad things only happen to bad girls. That if you talk, dress, act, and behave nicely, then bad things won't happen. You won't get raped if you dress right. You won't get beat if you are nice to your boyfriend, so never push him or challenge him and give him reason to hurt you. It's been a lot of work to do away with having that hammered into my upbringing most of my life (even well into adulthood). I am still looking for the right balance of it all, and trying to raise my sons at the same time.
I don't want them to think there is ANY excuse why they might mistreat a woman (or any other person). That their sexuality is theirs to control, 100% their responsibility. And sometimes, if their partner is drunk or whatever, then the responsibility for her safety and well being may fall on them, too. No matter how much a girl teases them, promises them or leaves them hanging at the last second, she never owes him a thing. So yes, while I do understand there are sexual addictions, those are not what I am talking about.
To me, to hear so many men say "you just don't understand how strong our sex drive is" is a big, fat, lame excuse. We have different sex drives, and probably for different reasons. But if they expect me to see their side and try to understand the spot they are in, then I expect the same of them. But it never works that way. They want us to understand their high sex drive, but they don't really look to understand how the way they talk makes us feel. When it's the reason why they cheat, it's why they take advantage of drunk women, it's why they text pictures of their genitals to women they know...their huge sex drives seem pretty convenient to blame for a lack of control. Their claim of so little control does little to make us feel better and it definitely can contribute to mistrust. Not talking about Boru here, just in general when the topic has come up here and elsewhere.
Sorry to keep carrying on. Apparently, it's a topic that's been on my mind a lot.
It's a topic that is on a whole lotta minds because it never gets 'fixed' - I think we can do more than just dream about 'the day' that miracle could happen - 'good' (meaning rational, reasonable) people tend to not be given credit because of others' reactionary behavior when it comes to talking about 'it'. It seems like a reverse prudishness or something. So for me, it just seems like we're forever stuck marching in place. I sure hope someone out there understands what I'm trying to say.
Why do you?
No, you hang up first...
Really?
This isn't making anyone 'look so special'.
Tit for tat is just your ego trying to win.
Take a tea break or a walk away. It's not that serious.
Dear @Vastmind - the point was made that we aren't special, fwiw.
Okay, who had @silver in 6 rounds on points in the pool? Shake hands and back to the locker room. I think it was a close call.
Honestly, folks. Well, being special doesn't mean being enlightened. Another thing I like about this forum is that people don't get upset at each other's posts to the point they say they're going to take their keyboard and go home.
Cartman for the win.
I can totally understand how such behaviour comes across as very creepy, that it sticks in the mind and that it seems oppressive. Apologies on behalf of the male gender. But in the interests of lending a little balance to the conversation, I think (hope... believe...) that such men are a minority. Certainly in my life experience I have known very few men who would do such things, and the few of whom I'd say "perhaps they might" are mental health condition sufferers.
Personally I've never engaged in cheating, anything remotely like "taking advantage" or texted a picture of my genitals to anyone. I've actually had very few intimate relationships in my life, for various reasons. It's been a mixed blessing, or curse, certainly something that has shaped my life.
For me it's about respect. Your mother gave life to you, she cared for you, she deserves your respect, and with that same respect you should approach all women. It's a mystery to me how some men get from there to texting pictures of their genitals to strangers. And a lot of men I know share that attitude.
Saw this on my Fb feed this morning (posted by a friend in the USA, who has three young daughters, all of whom apparently, have experienced similar treatment) and thought of this discussion.
Oh yes it is.
And this, given our own common sense, level-headedness and rationale, is astonishing, but apparently (sadly) not surprising.
THIS. I saw this a while ago and it really hit home to me. This should be seen by everyone because it really explains, rather powerfully, why pushing aside women who "nag" about bad behaviour is the wrong thing to do. Every primary school should show this and discuss it regularly.
The subject of sexism and fear of sexual attacks is serious....yes! I was just thinking that arguing back and forth in a particular place that it isn't a problem was kinda futile. Venting and bringing the problem to light always helps....not sure arguing about arguing does...Perhaps I stepped in and spoke when it wasn't warranted. My bad.
Thier logo reminds me of another Southpark reference,.. But a monk is too dignified to post it lol, well at least that's what I have to tell myself. @SpinyNorman might know though.
@Kerome I'm grateful your experience is so positive. I'm sure some of it is, as usual, the culture we've created in the US. I am not sure I can think of a single woman who hasn't been cheated on, and many (probably 50% of my friends, at least those willing to talk about it) have been abused in some way by their past partners. And somehow we have gotten into this place where the men who behave this way, are not held responsible. Not legally and not by society in other ways. We find anyone to blame but them for their choices. We blame their sex drive, we blame their upbringing, we blame movies and music, we blame porn. Those things might all contribute but when does their behavior become their responsibility?
Just the other day, another college guy who raped a semi-unconscious woman was let off with probation. Part of his lawyer's argument was that he's already suffering enough because he'll have to be a biochemist instead of being able to be a doctor because of his conviction. It's been a theme in our justice system for a while now. No accountability. Rape trials are traumatic in themselves, and our court system is continuing to send a message to women not to even bother reporting the crime.
@federica interesting article on Korea, thanks for sharing that, I hadn't seen it. How dare women challenge the idea that we need men to save us. I have seen the video before as well, and I agree, it should be part of sex ed requirements, or something similar.
Read the article, it is good that these issues get publicity and people get the message that it's not acceptable. The gamergate issues in particular I think are worrisome because it's another trend among young people. I mean, my generation grew up with Sesame Street and Donkey Kong, and these days they get Bayonetta and fan service everywhere? The term fan service didn't even properly exist when I was watching cartoons.
There's a million different aspects of this problem, so as I was thinking about it this morning, what seemed like a valid question about those who responded heatedly and negatively to my comments is why treat anyone like they're the enemy?
I have to chuckle at the thought that I had following that and that is, that WWBD seems to have become my favorite meaningful phrase (what would Buddha do?). What came to mind was the story about him confronting (and not in the modern sense) the most dangerous, murderous man that everybody else was afraid of and he managed that situation in a most amazing fashion. With this sex/gender/violence/etc. problem, it seems there's more crazy people than sane sometimes.
We all sometimes react/respond with righteous indignation, but how well it serves us is another matter.
Could you show me where people responded 'heatedly and negatively' to your comments?
Trust me on this: The discussion has been akin to a standard, well-mannered and even-tempered debate.
I have seen 'heated and negative' and believe me, as a Moderator, this was absolutely nothing like it. Nobody treated you like an enemy @silver.
It's ok to disagree with people. There was no name-calling, no insult, no anger and no heat.
Seems a bit like the monk carrying the woman across the stream to me.
She was put down ages ago.
You're still carrying her, are you....?
No, it's not like that. Did I say there was name-calling, etc? You think I haven't spent an inordinate amount of my time on forums? There was some heat but I didn't say it was excessive or anything like that. Where was the debate? To me, a debate doesn't qualify unless people actually get somewhere. I know it's okay to disagree with people. My only hurt is what goes on in the world. I do believe you're making assumptions that aren't valid.
I just wanted to say, I appreciate what you've been saying @silver This is a heated topic, and sometimes people don't step back, and try to understand where the other side is coming from.
No, I did. That's what happens when people get heated and negative. I'm pointing out that that didn't happen...
I have no idea. I do know you spend a long time on this one, and this one, for me, is a benchmark of how people SHOULD behave on forums...
No, not really. A Debate is defined as 'a formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.' I think that covers it... And you mentioned 'treating someone like the enemy', not I.
You're the one who brought this up. Again. I'm just going by what you wrote, and responding to it.
So what is your point then?
Ok. I contend that the people who did seem to disagree with whatever they think I said/meant are overreacting - IF their purpose is to make real change in the world. I see what they said as just spinning our wheels - yes our as in the people who want to change the world. I saw hostility towards men in general in some of what was said, which is hardly appropriate to the situation (probably should start another thread about all this).
All people need to have a forum in which to air whatever they have to say about it all. A safe place, in all ways.
@Dhammachick and @IchLiebte both expressed that they were angry or words to that effect, so there's that. I'm not bothered much by that, fwiw. I'm just not quite sure WHY.
Thanks @Walker. Much appreciated.
@silver One time my mom was dropping me off at a community college class and a guy wouldn't leave me alone, even though I was visibly uncomfortable. I kept walking away and he followed me. Finally I was able to pull myself away from him and run into class. The guy clung to my mom as she walked to the other side of the entire campus, asking creepy, sexual questions about me. To my mother. When she got to the car, he wrote our license plate number down...
I could go on about incidents like this, I have more, but can you just please for a second imagine living like this? It's not an overreaction when the commonplace makes you feel subhuman. I'm not mad at you.
I would second that. It is a difficult and many-sided topic, but I appreciate the hypothetical extremes where some women rightly get very wound up over it, while others go too far and start seeing rapists around every corner, and could do with being told to just calm down and take some deep breaths.
It isn't a many-sided topic. There are two sides. Misogyny and equality. And there are rapists around every corner.
Thank you for sharing your experience...you're not alone. For me, I think of 'There but for the grace of god, go I,' and what do you think all the truly good men out there feel when they hear horror stories like this? We should all try to imagine the good ones that these stories would bring tears to their eyes and less attention to the creeps - who wouldn't be creeps if society were more inclusive.
What happened with your mom is why I say everybody as much as possible should learn some sort of self-defense. Be more assertive in everyday life...believe me, it's a challenge for me. Maybe by the time I'm 100, I'll be right-on target.
Thanks... but there was a time where my mother was raped in my apartment and I was asleep in my room, but she couldn't fight back because she didn't want me to hear and come out. Self-defense isn't always the solution. The solution is cutting the problem off at the source.
That's literally a crying shame, although I'm unsure why you think self-defense wouldn't have helped her (or anybody else in that position). Its a real puzzler to me. How old were you, if you don't mind me asking? And I have no idea what your idea is of 'cutting the problem off at the source.'
Very sorry to hear of your experiences, I too have family members who have had similar things happen to them. But from what I have heard, usually they are once or twice in a lifetime events. There really aren't rapists around every corner, although they are more frequent than we would wish and rape should be punished more severely and regularly.
I was 14. She didn't want to make any noise through self-defense because it happened so fast. I mean cut it off at the source by discouraging rape in society, that is, being more socially aware that there are "rapists around every corner", as @Kerome put it. To see someone say that there aren't is a blow to the gut and shows just how in-the-dark men can be about this. Cutting the problem off at the source means teaching men not to rape, teaching them that they don't have a "higher sex drive" that they can do nothing about.
So, I take it the police were of no use, then?
Just for the record, 99% of the time, I am not having any sort of emotional reaction to anything here. I've learned that for me, if i am feeling riled, I need to leave and not respond until later (if ever). So at any point if you/whoever think I am upset, angry, or whathave you, it's likely untrue. I might use strong words but always remember that with anyone, text only is a very poor medium to carry on any meaningful discussion.
I often don't know what to do about the big problems in the world. But I do know from experience that discussions and conversations DO make a difference. And when just one person can see a topic from another point of view, especially one they are emotionally tied to, that is how change starts. I've seen it happen. In myself and in many others. So "just talking" about something IS changing things sometimes. The only other thing I can do is try to impact my corner of the world by sending kids out there who hopefully have a better sense of these things and how to treat others, and to teach them how to see other perspectives. Most of the time, I don't know what else to do on a broad scale such as this group represents, beyond discussing it.
Hormones deeply affect both sexes desires. It seems apparent to me that biology plays a larger factor in how much a person thinks about sex rather than character. How that gets channeled after that then I feel is where character, culture and norms come in. Just because you have a strong lust to copulate in no way should justify creeping or rape. This also brings to mind the distinction between explanation and justification. Using testosterone as a partial explanation for bad male behavior isn't the same as using it as a justification.
Frustrated and pissed off were my exact words. Then I bowed out because like you said, we were getting nowhere. And you're still missing my point by dragging me back into the discussion. I was/am getting again, frustrated at you not letting go simply because you cannot fathom other women don't have your POV.
I don't give a flying frack in a rolling donut that we disagree. I did when your tone/demeanour came across as argumentative because I and others disagreed. You claim that was not the case so I left it at that. Could you kindly do the same in regards to me on this topic?
I don't care if we or anyone else disagrees as well. So what's the big deal. Just because I was talking to @Federica, simply mentioning that YESTERDAY, you and someone else (and maybe one or two others) were bristling over something(s) I said in the conversation in this particular thread.
I didn't say anything negative about you, I just said as a matter of fact, you were one of the people who got upset - and I realize that it was YESTERDAY. Why do you view it and choose to describe it as me purportedly 'dragging' you back into the convo? I'm not. Sheesh.
Oh you fibber ... Do they come with pink icing and rainbow sprinkles?
meow
and now back to frying frack ...