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Was Jesus An Enlightened Buddha? Was he Buddhist?

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Comments

  • If I say or write violent things, am I violent? Or am I only violent if i DO violent things? Are violent metaphors violent?

    I think it's fair to say that some of the violence in the Bible is metaphorical. It's a little risky to say it's ONLY metaphorical, as it still trades on violence. But it's also fair to say it was written in its time, for its time, and "you have reach people where they are" as modern Christians like to say.

    As Karasti points out, if one wants to find disagreement, one can find and accentuate and exaggerate turns of phrase, and stretch them beyond their intended meaning. Religion and politics are both vulnerable to this. There is plenty of raw material ready to be mined, polished, and sold.

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited January 2017

    @Kerome said:

    @techie said:

    @Kerome said:
    He seems a bit too violent to be a Buddha... the whole bit around "if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out" suggests that while he was almost there, he was still misunderstanding some things.

    You do know the difference between a literal truth and poetic exaggeration, don't you?

    Of course, but you have to see these things in context. The bible, as you are usually encouraged to read it, is supposed to contain a great deal of real truth and minuscule amounts of poetic exaggeration.

    Further in many cases I'd say poetic exaggeration becomes unhelpful obfuscation or even lies. It should be discouraged because it is rarely helpful :)

    That's Truth, with a capital T. Like a lot of people, you're missing the point. It's spiritual truth that's being exhorted

    federica
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @dhammachick said:

    @Kerome said:

    @techie said:

    @Kerome said:
    He seems a bit too violent to be a Buddha... the whole bit around "if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out" suggests that while he was almost there, he was still misunderstanding some things.

    You do know the difference between a literal truth and poetic exaggeration, don't you?

    Of course, but you have to see these things in context. The bible, as you are usually encouraged to read it, is supposed to contain a great deal of real truth and minuscule amounts of poetic exaggeration.

    Further in many cases I'd say poetic exaggeration becomes unhelpful obfuscation or even lies. It should be discouraged because it is rarely helpful :)

    That's Truth, with a capital T. Like a lot of people, you're missing the point. It's spiritual truth that's being exhorted

    I think that's a fallacy. Spiritual truth doesn't have to be poetic or metaphoric, there is plenty of it that is quite clear. That's a basic point of all communication - spiritual or not - clarity.

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Kerome said:

    @dhammachick said:

    @Kerome said:

    @techie said:

    @Kerome said:
    He seems a bit too violent to be a Buddha... the whole bit around "if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out" suggests that while he was almost there, he was still misunderstanding some things.

    You do know the difference between a literal truth and poetic exaggeration, don't you?

    Of course, but you have to see these things in context. The bible, as you are usually encouraged to read it, is supposed to contain a great deal of real truth and minuscule amounts of poetic exaggeration.

    Further in many cases I'd say poetic exaggeration becomes unhelpful obfuscation or even lies. It should be discouraged because it is rarely helpful :)

    That's Truth, with a capital T. Like a lot of people, you're missing the point. It's spiritual truth that's being exhorted

    I think that's a fallacy. Spiritual truth doesn't have to be poetic or metaphoric, there is plenty of it that is quite clear. That's a basic point of all communication - spiritual or not - clarity.

    If you take what is quite clearly a parable as literal that's YOUR decision to do so. If you think the Bible, Torah, Koran etc is BS then say so.

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @dhammachick said:

    @Kerome said:

    @dhammachick said:

    @Kerome said:

    @techie said:

    @Kerome said:
    He seems a bit too violent to be a Buddha... the whole bit around "if thy eye offends thee, pluck it out" suggests that while he was almost there, he was still misunderstanding some things.

    You do know the difference between a literal truth and poetic exaggeration, don't you?

    Of course, but you have to see these things in context. The bible, as you are usually encouraged to read it, is supposed to contain a great deal of real truth and minuscule amounts of poetic exaggeration.

    Further in many cases I'd say poetic exaggeration becomes unhelpful obfuscation or even lies. It should be discouraged because it is rarely helpful :)

    That's Truth, with a capital T. Like a lot of people, you're missing the point. It's spiritual truth that's being exhorted

    I think that's a fallacy. Spiritual truth doesn't have to be poetic or metaphoric, there is plenty of it that is quite clear. That's a basic point of all communication - spiritual or not - clarity.

    If you take what is quite clearly a parable as literal that's YOUR decision to do so. If you think the Bible, Torah, Koran etc is BS then say so.

    A parable is a short story illustrating a point. The quote I brought up is nothing like a parable.

    I have some respect for the bible as a document of historical importance and for some of its wisdom, but I also think huge tracts of it are the produce of psychosis and ancient superstition.

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Kerome said:
    I have some respect for the bible as a document of historical importance and for some of its wisdom, but I also think huge tracts of it are the produce of psychosis and ancient superstition.

    Never said it wasn't.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited January 2017

    @Kerome said:
    I think that's a fallacy. Spiritual truth doesn't have to be poetic or metaphoric, there is plenty of it that is quite clear. That's a basic point of all communication - spiritual or not - clarity.

    Que?
    This seems how can I say it - clearly incomplete. O.o

    Most ordinary communication occurs on the non verbal level. Ordinary human communication has nuances and subtleties. It has subconcious and emotional tones.
    Fortunately metacognition is now being considered a valid teaching skill to empower children ...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition

    The Bible, especially Ye Olde Testerone Testament that Jesus was brought up on, is regarded as having several layers of meaning. At twelve, Jesus was already understanding scripture on a more profound level, as is clear from a New Testament tale ...
    Spiritual communication at its most effective, is highly multi-layered ...

    Christ be with you - as we Buddhists might say ... ;)

    Kundo
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2017

    @Steve_B said: ... I think it's fair to say that some of the violence in the Bible is metaphorical. It's a little risky to say it's ONLY metaphorical, as it still trades on violence. But it's also fair to say it was written in its time, for its time, and "you have reach people where they are" as modern Christians like to say.

    The Buddha, I believe, taught in the same way, did he not? He taught according to his audience, and what he taught, was vastly smaller than what he could have taught, or knew.

    As Karasti points out, if one wants to find disagreement, one can find and accentuate and exaggerate turns of phrase, and stretch them beyond their intended meaning. Religion and politics are both vulnerable to this. There is plenty of raw material ready to be mined, polished, and sold.

    Yes, there is a plethora of material to be viewed according to one's on interpretation. I find that interpretation can be distinctly affected by one's own biases, prejudices or pre-formed opinions.
    If one were to be an ardent and outspoken Atheist, for example, pretty much the entire Book is going to come in for disdain, ridicule and downright dismissal....
    s I read somewhere, "The Trouble with a Closed Mind, is that it opens its mouth...."

    lobsterKundokarasti
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    I feel bad for Jesus. I wonder how he would have felt if he knew his teachings would inspire a death cult where people envision themselves bathing in his blood to save themselves from the wrath of an angry, jealous and all around unenlightened godhead.

    Metaphorical or not, the Bible is a pretty twisted work, filled with violence and disturbing sexual references which I would think Jesus would separate from, not condone.

    He is more than a karma toilet but that's his main function according to some of his supposed followers.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    If the recent verifications of the discovered tablets are anything to go by, they clarify Jesus' intentions to re-establish the traditional, Compassionate original 'Order of Things'. He envisioned God as genderless, and upheld the benevolent discipline of the teachings of his forefathers, from the time of King David.
    I have the feeling he would not look too kindly on some interpretations...

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @David said:
    I feel bad for Jesus. I wonder how he would have felt if he knew his teachings would inspire a death cult where people envision themselves bathing in his blood to save themselves from the wrath of an angry, jealous and all around unenlightened godhead.

    Which part - the Old Testament/Torah or the New Testament?

    Metaphorical or not, the Bible is a pretty twisted work, filled with violence and disturbing sexual references which I would think Jesus would separate from, not condone.

    He said he came to FULFILL the law - Jewish Law (halacha). So I'm pretty sure he was down with a lot of it. He had his issues with the Pharisees and their interpretation of halacha but not the halacha itself.

    I might add here that the Old Testament in the Christian Bible DOES have translation discrepancies. Particularly in Leviticus and regarding homosexuality. Judaism denounces men acting effeminent and taking a female role in a relationship, Christianity focused on the sexual act. I say this from what I've gleaned from my Torah classes. But I digress.

    He is more than a karma toilet but that's his main function according to some of his supposed followers.

    And the Buddha is more than that as well, but hey sometimes we belittle his efforts too.

    I get it, you have a negative view of Christianity, Christians and maybe religion in general - that last part is a guess on my behalf. But the attitude from a lot of us on this thread is really shitty. No one path is perfect, especially not Buddhism. In another thread on the forum, there's been heated debate on an alcoholic Buddhist teacher.

    I'm starting to wonder if people are trolling for shits and giggles on here. It's pretty disappointing. And I'm disappointed that I've allowed people to bait me into acting unskillfully on here too.

    As someone trying to follow the Dharma, a Jew and a student of history and anthropology, I try to be a little more understanding of other paths. This doesn't mean I accept them, it just means I'm trying not to be a judgmental so and so.

    We, as a collective we, need to not consider ourselves above traditional theistic paths. It's not a competition as to who's path is better. I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the Buddha's intention.

    federicalobster
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2017

    No, you pretty much have to believe in the concept of original sin for the blood of the lamb to mean anything, sorry @dhammachick.

    If people giving an opinion that differs from you is trolling in your eyes, I'm afraid there's little I can do about that.

    I am speaking from the heart.

    Are you sure you are not just looking for problems?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    On a side-note, but with reference to he above, it's one of the reasons I left Facebook. I realised it was insidiously turning me into someone I didn't want to be.

    lobsterTigger
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2017

    @David said:
    No, you pretty much have to believe in the concept of original sin for the blood of the lamb to mean anything, sorry @dhammachick.

    If people giving an opinion that differs from you is trolling in your eyes, I'm afraid there's little I can do about that.

    I am speaking from the heart.

    Are you sure you are not just looking for problems?

    You totally misunderstood her post.

    David
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited January 2017

    @David said:
    No, you pretty much have to believe in the concept of original sin for the blood of the lamb to mean anything, sorry @dhammachick.

    If people giving an opinion that differs from you is trolling in your eyes, I'm afraid there's little I can do about that.

    I am speaking from the heart.

    Are you sure you are not just looking for problems?

    No I'm not, but given this isn't the first time you've singled me out David I don't need to make my point any further.

    Especially given I was speaking in general as specified. But thanks.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2017

    Singled you out?

    Um, please go back and look. Both times it was actually you that singled me out. @Dhammachick

    @federica said:

    @David said:
    No, you pretty much have to believe in the concept of original sin for the blood of the lamb to mean anything, sorry @dhammachick.

    If people giving an opinion that differs from you is trolling in your eyes, I'm afraid there's little I can do about that.

    I am speaking from the heart.

    Are you sure you are not just looking for problems?

    You totally misunderstood her post.

    I saw it as trying to imply I would mix up the O/T with the N/T and that I was being a troll for giving my opinion. One that I've shared here for 5 years or something and that I am a bit passionate about.

    I will reread it and take the insults out. Maybe it will make more sense.

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @David said:
    Singled you out?

    Yes

    Um, please go back and look. Both times it was actually you that singled me out.

    I recall you insulting myself AND the mod if you want to be pedantic.

    I saw it as trying to imply I would mix up the O/T with the N/T and that I was being a troll for giving my opinion. One that I've shared here for 5 years or something and that I am a bit passionate about.

    You conveniently ignored my clarifications then. And length of time is irrelevant, I've been here for 7 years. That has nothing to do with it.

    I will reread it and take the insults out. Maybe it will make more sense.

    We both know I was not insulting you.

    Do what you want. I won't engage you in any further conversation on here given your personal umbrage at me.

    _ /\ _

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2017

    You are seeing what you want to see. I had and still have respect for you, lol. I don't really see where this hostility came from but it is none of my business and I refuse the gift @dhammachick.

    For a reminder, I said it was too bad Hitler bastardized the swastika and you jumped on me. I was more rude than I had to be in my response to being jumped on, I admit, but you jumped on me for something like that. Then Hitler was brought up again in the political thread and nobody got offended or jumped on for it.

    Here, you can plainly see that I was just jumped on, lol.

    I don't know... Sorry but I was not addressing anyone or singling anyone out on this thread until you quoted me and basically called me a troll.

    I mean really.

    And no, I don't think Jesus would approve of Christianity anymore than he approved of Judaism. His good news was that of forgiveness and he explains how to get into the Kingdom of God. It had nothing to do with him being tortured and killed and everything to do with compassion in my honest opinion.

    Sue me, geez.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2017

    Moderator Posting:

    @David said:
    You are seeing what you want to see. I had and still have respect for you, lol. I don't really see where this hostility came from.

    You've got a funny way of showing it...

    For a reminder, I said it was too bad Hitler bastardized the swastika and you jumped on me. I was more rude than I had to be in my response to being jumped on, I admit, but you jumped on me for something like that.

    I jumped on you for that too. And rightly so.
    Your comments show anything BUT respect, to dhammachick as a member, a woman and a Jew.

    Then Hitler was brought up again in the political thread and nobody got offended or jumped on for it.

    Hitler? Politics? How strange he should be directly connected. The mention of Hitler's use of the swastika here was off-topic.

    Here, you can plainly see that I was just jumped on, lol.

    No, you weren't. You misinterpreted her post entirely, as I said, and you completely twisted her meaning.

    I don't know... Sorry but I was not addressing anyone or singling anyone out on this thread until you quoted me and basically called me a troll.

    You were displaying the characteristics of one...

    I mean really.

    Yes. Really.

    @dhammachick is referring to the insults and patronising demeaning and frankly ignorant comments being made by those who have done little or no homework on the subject, yet choose to criticise, interpret and condemn certain passages without an deeper understanding of the matter. Taking isolated passages of scripture and presuming they mean something specific, is a mistake.

    Furthermore, these teachings are not OUR teachings but they are someone's teachings. As such, no matter what our opinions of these scriptures, both those who follow them, and the teachings themselves, should be afforded a degree of respect.

    Criticism of the kind here, both from you and others, is not an admirable trait, and demonstrates a prejudicial ignorance that is beneath us all.

This discussion has been closed.