Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

lojong and tonglen

ScottPenScottPen Maryland Veteran

Hi everybody!

A practitioner recently recommended to me that I look into the practices of lojong and tonglen as part of my exploration into compassion.

Has anyone here had experience with these? Can you describe it?

Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 28

    In a nutshell

    Training the mind in receiving (taking in) the unwholesome and giving out the wholesome in return :)

    ScottPen
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Practice lojong and here is what happens to your longjohns

    good post from @Ugyen_Yeshe (welcome to NewBuddhist), not sure what happens to your tonglen ... šŸ˜›

    http://www.ericdowsett.com/tonglen/

    ScottPenkandoShoshinKundo
  • ScottPenScottPen Maryland Veteran

    @Shoshin, @Ugyen_Yeshe, @lobster, & @Jeffrey, thank you all for your help. I'm trying to cobble together my best practice and this does seem beneficial.

    @lobster, that pic was an amazing find! +1 for you on that :)

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    All I can offer from my own experience is don't do it half heartedly and make sure you understand what you're doing. It makes a world of difference
    šŸ™šŸ™šŸ™

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 30

    ... found what happens if practicing tonguelen ... :p

    http://quietmountain.org/links/teachings/tonglen.htm

    meanwhile in yoga tongueland

  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran

    Buddhist since 2000 with a local Tibetan Lama as a teacher.
    And a degree in cognitive psychology.

    Yes, VERY useful.
    Some of the Tibetan practices function very much like cognitive psychology .. deliberately creating and strengthening the patterns in your brain. This is how inner change happens.

    And the Practices use all 3 learning styles: visual (the actual items you see, plus the visualization exercises), auditory (the chanting, the bell, etc), and kinetic (the prostrations and mudras). The more you engage all the learning styles, the more learning takes place.
    And how is "learning" defined in psychology? As an observable measurable change in behavior.

    But a teacher makes a huge difference in how well we use these practices. Their example is far more useful than words.
    And the Tibetans (the lamas, the Tibetan doctors, and Tibetans in general) warn that doing Tibetan Buddhism without a teacher will "drive you crazy" (their words, not mine. But I CAN see how the practices can create delusional thinking if not guided properly). So they tell us that one should not do the Vajrayana/Tibetan practices unless you have the guidance of a live teacher.

  • Ugyen_YesheUgyen_Yeshe Toronto New

    @FoibleFull said:
    Buddhist since 2000 with a local Tibetan Lama as a teacher.
    And a degree in cognitive psychology.

    Yes, VERY useful.
    Some of the Tibetan practices function very much like cognitive psychology .. deliberately creating and strengthening the patterns in your brain. This is how inner change happens.

    And the Practices use all 3 learning styles: visual (the actual items you see, plus the visualization exercises), auditory (the chanting, the bell, etc), and kinetic (the prostrations and mudras). The more you engage all the learning styles, the more learning takes place.
    And how is "learning" defined in psychology? As an observable measurable change in behavior.

    But a teacher makes a huge difference in how well we use these practices. Their example is far more useful than words.
    And the Tibetans (the lamas, the Tibetan doctors, and Tibetans in general) warn that doing Tibetan Buddhism without a teacher will "drive you crazy" (their words, not mine. But I CAN see how the practices can create delusional thinking if not guided properly). So they tell us that one should not do the Vajrayana/Tibetan practices unless you have the guidance of a live teacher.

    Vajrayana is not possible without a teacher. No empowerment, no Vajryayana. The rest is all trivial.

    That said, the practices which are being asked about here are not Vajrayana practices and are rooted in Sutrayana. One can be learn Sutrayana practices without a teacher, but like I said nothing beats oral instructions.

  • kandokando northern Ireland Veteran

    Good points made there @FoibleFull - I've come to realise since being on this site that so far I've been merely dipping my little pink toes into a very deep lake! The need for a teacher especially in certain disciplines is obviously vital.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @ScottPen said:

    Has anyone here had experience with these? Can you describe it?

    The Dalai Lama Lojong 1 & 2

    Tonglen Guided Meditation by Tulku Tsori Rinpoche

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Ugyen_Yeshe said:
    ... but like I said nothing beats oral instructions.

    I'll take Nothing :p

    [ Oh I iz wikid :3 ]

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @lobster said:
    ... found what happens if practicing tonguelen ... :p

    You become a cunning linguist?......runs away

    kandolobsterperson
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    image

    lobsterKundo
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    And the Tibetans (the lamas, the Tibetan doctors, and Tibetans in general) warn that doing Tibetan Buddhism without a teacher will "drive you crazy"

    That was my starting point. :3
    Tibetan Buddhism is no different to any spiritual path in being dangerous. Only the ineffective will keep you on the near shore.

    Vajrayana teachers can be web based, for example @Jeffrey has one ...

    meanwhile ...
    http://spiritgrooves.net/pdf/e-books/Meditation_ebook.pdf

  • Ugyen_YesheUgyen_Yeshe Toronto New

    Revisiting the beginning of this thread, it occurred to me that an ongoing discussion on the topic of lojong (mind training) may be both useful and helpful to some here, as well as myself also.

    My idea was to discuss the "7 points of mind training" one at a time (going through all the "slogans" which make up the text). Maybe a slogan a day, and that way it gives us a chance to discuss each point and will allow an ongoing study that can be built upon. I know that for myself, when we constantly engage in study and reflection then it is much easier to make it a part of our everyday experience.

    I would be happy to provide the slogans as we go along.

    Is there any interest in this sort of thing?

    KeromeScottPenperson
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Go for it. Every curve is a learning curve.... :)

  • Ugyen_YesheUgyen_Yeshe Toronto New

    @federica said:
    Go for it. Every curve is a learning curve.... :)

    I like that one... =)

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    image

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Ugyen_Yeshe said:
    Is there any interest in this sort of thing?

    Iā€™m certainly interested in learning more about this. By all means bring on the slogans.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited July 11

    "Go to work on an egg."
    "Naughty but Nice!"
    "Nice one Cyril!"
    "You only get an 'ooh!' with Typhoo!"
    "Because Life's Complicated Enough"
    "Finger-Lickin' good!"
    "Fly the Flag"

    I guarantee you, @Ugyen_Yeshe 's will be better, though.... But will they be as catchy...?

    (My Dad always used to say "If you learnt your schoolwork the way you learn the things on television, you'd be a better pupil!"

    which actually stopped that little mini-sermon in its tracks one day, when I replied,

    "...And if they taught lessons in as entertaining and catchy a way as they do on television, it would be a better school!")

    lobsterKundoperson
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @federica said:
    "Go to work on an egg."
    "Naughty but Nice!"
    "Nice one Cyril!"
    "You only get an 'ooh!' with Typhoo!"
    "Because Life's Complicated Enough"
    "Finger-Lickin' good!"
    "Fly the Flag"

    Go to work on a Precept
    Nice and Naughty
    Nice One Buddha
    You only get an HUM with mantra
    It's simple enough
    Mudra posturing good
    Fly the Lotus

    We haz plan! :3

    federicaKundo
  • kandokando northern Ireland Veteran

    You missed 'watch out there's a Humphrey about' @federica, my all time favorite piece of advertising mayhem šŸ˜

    federica
  • ScottPenScottPen Maryland Veteran

    @Ugyen_Yeshe said:
    Revisiting the beginning of this thread, it occurred to me that an ongoing discussion on the topic of lojong (mind training) may be both useful and helpful to some here, as well as myself also.

    My idea was to discuss the "7 points of mind training" one at a time (going through all the "slogans" which make up the text). Maybe a slogan a day, and that way it gives us a chance to discuss each point and will allow an ongoing study that can be built upon. I know that for myself, when we constantly engage in study and reflection then it is much easier to make it a part of our everyday experience.

    I would be happy to provide the slogans as we go along.

    Is there any interest in this sort of thing?

    Since I started this thread, I certainly would like to learn more about it. I'm not part of an in-person sangha and I didn't really take to the vajrayana service that I attended. So yes, I'd love to learn more from you lovely folks.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @kando said:
    You missed 'watch out there's a Humphrey about' @federica, my all time favorite piece of advertising mayhem šŸ˜

    Apologies. It won't happen again.

  • Ugyen_YesheUgyen_Yeshe Toronto New

    Sorry for the delay everyone. I have decided to dedicate the slogans and their discussions to it's own thread, called "Lojong and the Seven Points of Mind Training". Thank you for your patience.

    =)

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @ScottPen said:
    Since I started this thread, I certainly would like to learn more about it. I'm not part of an in-person sangha and I didn't really take to the vajrayana service that I attended. So yes, I'd love to learn more from you lovely folks.

    The lovely are taking a break ... :p

    From your previous posts I get the impression your approach is pragmatic. If it works do it. As an ancient psychology, vajrayana bypasses rationality because part of our nature is hardwired irrationality.

    Once you understand this, irrational magickal practices become soothing, calming, clarifying. They are working solutions. It is bit like music. Irrational attraction to noise.

    Breathe in the good sounds ...

Sign In or Register to comment.