Think Think, Judge Judge, Grasp Grasp

Simplify · 02-04-2010, 06:39 PM

?

What about the nature of mind, or straight up questions on morality?

upekka · 02-04-2010, 06:41 PM

thinking is judging and grasping?

Simplify · 02-04-2010, 06:52 PM

I don't know. But these three things are rampant in this forum (and the internet in general).

jinzang · 02-04-2010, 06:55 PM

Even Longchenpa wrote seven books. Nothing new about intellectual activity in Buddhism.

Brother Bob · 02-05-2010, 03:00 AM

mind thinks, grasping and judging optional?

Nios · 02-05-2010, 03:49 AM

Thinking + ego = grasping and/or judging.

***federica*** · 02-05-2010, 04:07 AM

Simplify, could you clarify what your point is, exactly?

Palzang · 02-05-2010, 07:24 AM

Oh, I thought it was about judgment.

Palzang

***federica*** · 02-05-2010, 08:15 AM

I'm just a bit confused as to where he exactly expects everyone to go with this.... what are we actually trying to discuss here?

Thinking?

Judging?
Grasping?
Habits of internet posting?

Tendencies?

The nature of Mind, or

Questions of morality?

What?

Palzang · 02-05-2010, 10:33 AM

What I meant was I thought he(?) was criticizing people who criticize others or who think too much or who are attached to their opinions. Not true?

Palzang

Richard H · 02-05-2010, 04:52 PM

Now dont add cup of sugar directly to the mix or it will clump. Slowly sift it in, then put the mix aside. Next its time to whip the egg whites. For this you'll need a.......Hold on .........isnt this the baking forum?

thecap · 02-05-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Herman

Now dont add cup of sugar directly to the mix or it will clump. Slowly sift it in, then put the mix aside. Next its time to whip the egg whites. For this you'll need a.......Hold on .........isnt this the baking forum?

What about the salt. . .

thecap · 02-05-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

I don't know. But these three things are rampant in this forum (and the internet in general).

Don^t become what you fight

.

BaileyD · 02-06-2010, 03:58 AM

You all think too much. Just live.

Richard H · 02-06-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaileyD

You all think too much. Just live.

Thats what you think.

RenGalskap · 02-06-2010, 11:29 AM

Ya think?

Richard H · 02-06-2010, 03:56 PM

Doh!!!

Brother Bob · 02-06-2010, 04:19 PM

You soo funny!!

acceptance · 02-06-2010, 05:20 PM

Ha Palzang... "Oh, I thought it was about judgment".

You are wise. period. And usually with such short and clear answers.

All in good fun, think-y thinker!

A

Simplify · 02-06-2010, 07:40 PM

poke poke, shriek shriek

Sorry for the vagueness I was just poking

sure its bad form to disapear only to come back and complain, but

I was just looking at the new posts since I left and saw a lot what seems to be ego based ideation, defense, holding on to thoughts and ideas, you know stuff that seems irrelevant to the practice.

Palzang · 02-06-2010, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acceptance

Ha Palzang... "Oh, I thought it was about judgment".

You are wise. period. And usually with such short and clear answers.

All in good fun, think-y thinker!

A

I don't think so! Or, I don't think, so...

Palzang

solowriter · 02-07-2010, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

poke poke, shriek shriek

Sorry for the vagueness I was just poking

sure its bad form to disapear only to come back and complain, but

I was just looking at the new posts since I left and saw a lot what seems to be ego based ideation, defense, holding on to thoughts and ideas, you know stuff that seems irrelevant to the practice.

I started to get all defensive about being a noob and still learning. But then I thought about it.

***federica*** · 02-07-2010, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

poke poke, shriek shriek

Sorry for the vagueness I was just poking

sure its bad form to disapear only to come back and complain, but

I was just looking at the new posts since I left and saw a lot what seems to be ego based ideation, defense, holding on to thoughts and ideas, you know stuff that seems irrelevant to the practice.

Name one post above that is ego-based, (what is 'ideation'...?) defensive and 'holding on to thoughts and ideas'.

The fact is, we all made it up as we went along and had fun with it, because nobody had a clue what you were going on about.
In a medium such as this - where the only means of communication is the written word - then it's important to clarify precisely what your intention is within your post, what it is you seek by way of responses, and what kind of interaction you're looking for.
Otherwise, we could just as easily clump your original post into one of your own categories, and call it "Ego-based and defensive".

Say what you mean, mean what you say.

Now.
Would you like to start again, or shall we leave it here?

Simplify · 02-07-2010, 05:46 PM

The post on immunization is a good one. Probably best are the posts on rebirth.

Ideation is idea making. It seems plainly obvious that the ideation machines in our minds are often driven by ego, especially obvious on the internet.

I find it both funny and sad that people on a 'Buddhist' forum chose to engage their ego grasping with the ideation machine.

NamelessRiver · 02-07-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

The post on immunization is a good one. Probably best are the posts on rebirth.

So what you are saying is that the content of such posts (which are somewhat like 'I believe in this' or 'rebirth is like this' or 'no you are wrong it is like that') are offensive? I don't think it has necessarily to do with ego-grasping. In my case I find it somewhat amusing, just inoffensive chit-chat. In fact this thread is somewhat like "You should talk like this, and not like that".

You can see that sometimes people start escalating it and getting a bit mad. It is just part of being human, there is NOTHING offensive about that.

Maybe what really annoys you is how repetitive it gets?

Simplify · 02-08-2010, 03:39 PM

Not offensive.

Attachment to 'knowledge'.

What is knowledge? Examining incomplete conceptual information for patterns that fit your fears and desires? Faith in a particular interpretation or aspect of something that was rumored to have been said 2000 years ago?

Richard H · 02-08-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

Not offensive.

Attachment to 'knowledge'.

What is knowledge? Examining incomplete conceptual information for patterns that fit your fears and desires? Faith in a particular interpretation or aspect of something that was rumored to have been said 2000 years ago?

You do see the ironic humour in this post.... eh?

Knight of Buddha · 02-08-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

Not offensive.

Attachment to 'knowledge'.

What is knowledge? Examining incomplete conceptual information for patterns that fit your fears and desires? Faith in a particular interpretation or aspect of something that was rumored to have been said 2000 years ago?

This whole thread is about as vague as vague gets. Quite psychoanalyzing every single word people say. Say what you mean!

portico · 02-08-2010, 06:24 PM

Seeker

Simplify · 02-09-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight of Buddha

This whole thread is about as vague as vague gets. Quite psychoanalyzing every single word people say. Say what you mean!

either you see it or you don't

Knight of Buddha · 02-09-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplify

either you see it or you don't

If you say so, Neo.

I live in a world of paint, hammers, and nails. This intellectual dabbling is a bit too much for my knuckle-dragging self.

Deshy · 02-10-2010, 01:10 AM

Well Simplicity has a point here guys. I think most of us display our ego in the forums sometimes (including me). Aren't we all attached to our ideas and knowledge to which most of us do not have solid direct meditative realizations? We just hold on to them and debate on them over and over sometimes without even considering the other possibilities.

Brigid · 02-12-2010, 06:18 AM

Yeah, I have to agree, Deshy.

I'm constantly fighting with my sense of 'self' and the 'identity' I'm trying to present and shore up on here. Not that others are like this, but I tend to be inflexible in my beliefs (although I'm better than I was) because I'm afraid to not have what I think are concrete answers to spiritual questions. About ten years ago I was called opinionated and arrogant by someone I respected and they were so right. If I was posting here with my old attitude I'd be pretty insufferable. I really held on to my views tightly and was threatened easily when someone disagreed or criticized me.

I still struggle with those old habits of clinging to my beliefs and I actually blush with embarrassment when I think back to some of the things I said in those days. But this forum has helped me SO much it's astonishing. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that bulletin boards like this one with its relative anonymity make it easy to be arrogant and unbending and they also lend themselves to feelings of self-importance because our posts are 'published'. So it presents the perfect opportunity to solidify one's sense of 'self' and because I've had to work so hard at resisting that temptation I've been forced to make changes in myself. It's slow going but I'm improving which has lessened my suffering considerably. I hope it's mitigated the suffering of those who read what I write too.

Deshy · 02-12-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brigid

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that bulletin boards like this one with its relative anonymity make it easy to be arrogant and unbending and they also lend themselves to feelings of self-importance because our posts are 'published'. So it presents the perfect opportunity to solidify one's sense of 'self' and because I've had to work so hard at resisting that temptation I've been forced to make changes in myself. It's slow going but I'm improving which has lessened my suffering considerably.

So ditto. The more I let go of this ego (although temporarily) the happier I feel. Maybe it's because of my anxiety but I have always been some sort of a laid back person anyway. But that doesn't mean I have no ego. Usually the quiet ones are those who keep it all bottled in

Glow · 02-12-2010, 02:21 PM

Deshy and Brigid, you both bring up good points. I am quite guilty of this myself. It's difficult not to attach to what you post on the forum because there is an element of "permanence" about written communication; it's stored for others to see and form an idea of what you are like through.

Quiet_witness · 02-12-2010, 03:22 PM

I agree Glow. I have read over things I have written in the past and some of them are completely different from what I think now. What we all need to realize is that we are changing beings (hopefully for the better) and we need to allow that change to take place and forgive past errors or misconceptions. I find it a useful tool to read my old posts and see the progression or digression I have made since then.

Brigid · 02-13-2010, 07:57 AM

I've seen the same thing with my old posts too, QW. Sometimes I feel embarrassed about what I wrote back then. *sigh* Lol! It's a good thing we do change, that's all I can say!

My lack of self forgiveness shows me I still have an unbalanced ego though and that in itself is important to see.

Glow,

That's how I see it too. Writing down our opinions and publishing them for all to see is an exercise in solidifying the ego in itself, even if we're not particularly clinging to those opinions. It's a challenge but a great one.

Deshy,

I'm SO with you on that. I can see, intellectually, how the understanding of not-self will completely eradicate my panic disorder because the little progress I've made in that area has already made a difference with the anxiety. I really do think of it as the antidote to the disorder for me.

Ever since my first panic attack when I was 9 or 10 I've been a virtual slave to fear. I've done relatively okay socially but it's always been there at my heels just waiting to strike and take me down. When I was a kid I assumed that I was going to end up in an institution and not be able to function in normal society.

But studying and contemplating the not-self teachings, among other teachings, has changed everything. Now I can actually look at fear and believe that I may conquer it, or at least it's pathological aspects, in this lifetime. And when I think of it like that I think, "How totally amazing is that?? I could conquer fear! I may not have to live constantly trying to keep it at bay." It makes me feel free for the first time since I was a young child.

Oooops! I'm babbling and off topic. I'll shut up now.

02-04-2010, 06:39 PM	#1
Simplify Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 134	Think Think, Judge Judge, Grasp Grasp ? What about the nature of mind, or straight up questions on morality? __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought is divergent, but maybe rather than fighting each other with our individual divergences, we can search out a mutual convergence? So I let down my guard here, I am wrong until we can agree. (Still, we may be wrong.)

02-04-2010, 06:52 PM	#3
Simplify Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 134	I don't know. But these three things are rampant in this forum (and the internet in general). __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought is divergent, but maybe rather than fighting each other with our individual divergences, we can search out a mutual convergence? So I let down my guard here, I am wrong until we can agree. (Still, we may be wrong.)

02-04-2010, 06:55 PM	#4
jinzang A Clever Swine Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 444	Even Longchenpa wrote seven books. Nothing new about intellectual activity in Buddhism. __________________ I teach meditation according to Buddha's teachings, otherwise it wouldn't help you if I teach something from my own ideas; because I am not an enlightened being. -- Lama Phurbu Tashi

02-05-2010, 04:07 AM	#7
*federica* Official Forum Tugboat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Verulamium, Britannia. Posts: 8,240	Simplify, could you clarify what your point is, exactly? __________________ I am soooo happy - how on earth could I be otherwise? The Buddha addressed: "Hatred never ceases through hatred, but hatred ceases by love alone. This is the essence of the ancient and eternal law.". "Believe those who seek the Truth: Doubt those who find it." "Weigh, within your heart, the true advantages of the energies of Love, Compassion and Forgiveness, against those of Anger, Fear and Resentment. Then Choose." "1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow." First 2 verses of the Dhammapada. "Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. The third is to be kind." Henry James.

02-05-2010, 07:24 AM	#8
Palzang Lama's Boy Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,429	Oh, I thought it was about judgment. Palzang __________________ We all want to awaken, but we don't want to stop dreaming. -- Jetsunma Ahkön Lhamo Compassion is Revolution! Ora pro nobis Non sibi

02-04-2010, 06:41 PM	#2
upekka Old friend of the site Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: melbourne Posts: 334	thinking is judging and grasping?

02-05-2010, 03:00 AM	#5
Brother Bob Old friend of the site Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 481	mind thinks, grasping and judging optional?

02-05-2010, 03:49 AM	#6
Nios Procrastinating Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 471	Thinking + ego = grasping and/or judging.

02-05-2010, 08:15 AM	#9
*federica* Official Forum Tugboat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Verulamium, Britannia. Posts: 8,240	I'm just a bit confused as to where he exactly expects everyone to go with this.... what are we actually trying to discuss here? Thinking? Judging? Grasping? Habits of internet posting? Tendencies? The nature of Mind, or Questions of morality? What? __________________ I am soooo happy - how on earth could I be otherwise? The Buddha addressed: "Hatred never ceases through hatred, but hatred ceases by love alone. This is the essence of the ancient and eternal law.". "Believe those who seek the Truth: Doubt those who find it." "Weigh, within your heart, the true advantages of the energies of Love, Compassion and Forgiveness, against those of Anger, Fear and Resentment. Then Choose." "1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow." First 2 verses of the Dhammapada. "Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. The third is to be kind." Henry James.

02-05-2010, 10:33 AM	#10
Palzang Lama's Boy Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,429	What I meant was I thought he(?) was criticizing people who criticize others or who think too much or who are attached to their opinions. Not true? Palzang __________________ We all want to awaken, but we don't want to stop dreaming. -- Jetsunma Ahkön Lhamo Compassion is Revolution! Ora pro nobis Non sibi

02-05-2010, 04:52 PM	#11
Richard H .. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,707	Now dont add cup of sugar directly to the mix or it will clump. Slowly sift it in, then put the mix aside. Next its time to whip the egg whites. For this you'll need a.......Hold on .........isnt this the baking forum?

02-06-2010, 03:58 AM	#14
BaileyD Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Yes Posts: 68	You all think too much. Just live.

02-06-2010, 11:29 AM	#16
RenGalskap Bodhisattva manque Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 669	Ya think?

02-06-2010, 03:56 PM	#17
Richard H .. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,707	Doh!!!

02-06-2010, 04:19 PM	#18
Brother Bob Old friend of the site Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 481	You soo funny!!

02-06-2010, 05:20 PM	#19
acceptance seeker and friend Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Here Posts: 44	Ha Palzang... "Oh, I thought it was about judgment". You are wise. period. And usually with such short and clear answers. All in good fun, think-y thinker! A

02-06-2010, 07:40 PM	#20
Simplify Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 134	poke poke, shriek shriek Sorry for the vagueness I was just poking sure its bad form to disapear only to come back and complain, but I was just looking at the new posts since I left and saw a lot what seems to be ego based ideation, defense, holding on to thoughts and ideas, you know stuff that seems irrelevant to the practice. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought is divergent, but maybe rather than fighting each other with our individual divergences, we can search out a mutual convergence? So I let down my guard here, I am wrong until we can agree. (Still, we may be wrong.)

02-07-2010, 05:46 PM	#24
Simplify Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 134	The post on immunization is a good one. Probably best are the posts on rebirth. Ideation is idea making. It seems plainly obvious that the ideation machines in our minds are often driven by ego, especially obvious on the internet. I find it both funny and sad that people on a 'Buddhist' forum chose to engage their ego grasping with the ideation machine. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought is divergent, but maybe rather than fighting each other with our individual divergences, we can search out a mutual convergence? So I let down my guard here, I am wrong until we can agree. (Still, we may be wrong.)

02-08-2010, 03:39 PM	#26
Simplify Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 134	Not offensive. Attachment to 'knowledge'. What is knowledge? Examining incomplete conceptual information for patterns that fit your fears and desires? Faith in a particular interpretation or aspect of something that was rumored to have been said 2000 years ago? __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought is divergent, but maybe rather than fighting each other with our individual divergences, we can search out a mutual convergence? So I let down my guard here, I am wrong until we can agree. (Still, we may be wrong.)

02-08-2010, 06:24 PM	#29
portico Seeker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 9	Seeker

02-10-2010, 01:10 AM	#32
Deshy Old friend of the site Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,355	Well Simplicity has a point here guys. I think most of us display our ego in the forums sometimes (including me). Aren't we all attached to our ideas and knowledge to which most of us do not have solid direct meditative realizations? We just hold on to them and debate on them over and over sometimes without even considering the other possibilities.

02-12-2010, 06:18 AM	#33
Brigid Old friend of the site Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 4,551	Yeah, I have to agree, Deshy. I'm constantly fighting with my sense of 'self' and the 'identity' I'm trying to present and shore up on here. Not that others are like this, but I tend to be inflexible in my beliefs (although I'm better than I was) because I'm afraid to not have what I think are concrete answers to spiritual questions. About ten years ago I was called opinionated and arrogant by someone I respected and they were so right. If I was posting here with my old attitude I'd be pretty insufferable. I really held on to my views tightly and was threatened easily when someone disagreed or criticized me. I still struggle with those old habits of clinging to my beliefs and I actually blush with embarrassment when I think back to some of the things I said in those days. But this forum has helped me SO much it's astonishing. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that bulletin boards like this one with its relative anonymity make it easy to be arrogant and unbending and they also lend themselves to feelings of self-importance because our posts are 'published'. So it presents the perfect opportunity to solidify one's sense of 'self' and because I've had to work so hard at resisting that temptation I've been forced to make changes in myself. It's slow going but I'm improving which has lessened my suffering considerably. I hope it's mitigated the suffering of those who read what I write too.

02-12-2010, 02:21 PM	#35
Glow D'ohm mane padme hum... Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 298	Deshy and Brigid, you both bring up good points. I am quite guilty of this myself. It's difficult not to attach to what you post on the forum because there is an element of "permanence" about written communication; it's stored for others to see and form an idea of what you are like through.

02-12-2010, 03:22 PM	#36
Quiet_witness Yogi man Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Great salty lake Posts: 424	I agree Glow. I have read over things I have written in the past and some of them are completely different from what I think now. What we all need to realize is that we are changing beings (hopefully for the better) and we need to allow that change to take place and forgive past errors or misconceptions. I find it a useful tool to read my old posts and see the progression or digression I have made since then. __________________ Happiness is the way.

02-13-2010, 07:57 AM	#37
Brigid Old friend of the site Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 4,551	I've seen the same thing with my old posts too, QW. Sometimes I feel embarrassed about what I wrote back then. sigh Lol! It's a good thing we do change, that's all I can say! My lack of self forgiveness shows me I still have an unbalanced ego though and that in itself is important to see. Glow, That's how I see it too. Writing down our opinions and publishing them for all to see is an exercise in solidifying the ego in itself, even if we're not particularly clinging to those opinions. It's a challenge but a great one. Deshy, I'm SO with you on that. I can see, intellectually, how the understanding of not-self will completely eradicate my panic disorder because the little progress I've made in that area has already made a difference with the anxiety. I really do think of it as the antidote to the disorder for me. Ever since my first panic attack when I was 9 or 10 I've been a virtual slave to fear. I've done relatively okay socially but it's always been there at my heels just waiting to strike and take me down. When I was a kid I assumed that I was going to end up in an institution and not be able to function in normal society. But studying and contemplating the not-self teachings, among other teachings, has changed everything. Now I can actually look at fear and believe that I may conquer it, or at least it's pathological aspects, in this lifetime. And when I think of it like that I think, "How totally amazing is that?? I could conquer fear! I may not have to live constantly trying to keep it at bay." It makes me feel free for the first time since I was a young child. Oooops! I'm babbling and off topic. I'll shut up now.

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