Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

New forum software

LincLinc Site ownerDetroit Moderator
edited December 2010 in NewBuddhist.com
To give you all a heads-up, this fall I will be migrating NewBuddhist from vBulletin forum software to a newer product, "Vanilla".

I regard Vanilla as being a much easier to use for new members and have a much lower learning curve. I hope it helps us attract new members more easily, and I'm really looking forward to being on board with this product moving forward. I plan to be a contributor to the project and moving Icrontic.com (the other site Brian and I run) to it as well.

I'll post more information as it gets closer to time. For now I'm still working on just getting to work on our development server :D
«1

Comments

  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited August 2009
    Oh, can't we have chocolate instead?!

    Palzang
  • yuriythebestyuriythebest Veteran
    edited August 2009
    why not just good ole phpBB?
  • edited August 2009
    Second for chocolate!

    ~nomad
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited August 2009
    why not just good ole phpBB?
    Because phpBB is not "good", it's just "ole". ;)
  • LesCLesC Bermuda Veteran
    edited August 2009
    Have you ever looked at SMF? (http://www.simplemachines.org) I am using it for several forums, it's extremely flexible, powerful and FREE. Just a thought...
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited August 2009
    Thanks for your work on the site. I have a couple of feature requests.

    - It would be nice if in the new posts page, the link to the last post included an excerpt from said post in the tool tip (like the link to the first post does.)

    - Also in the new posts page, it would be nice to see the date of the first post. Long-running threads tend to mostly involve interminable discussions of unresolvable issues, and I prefer to avoid them. Being able to filter them out without going into them would be convenient.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited August 2009
    "New Posts" is the default view of Vanilla forums. Rather than being presented with Categories and needing to choose one, you get to see all the new posts right away with the option of filtering down to one category if you choose.

    You can see the basic format of the software here: http://vanillaforums.org/discussions

    However, I will be making several adjustments to the default and have indeed been thinking of a way to reveal an excerpt from the most recent post in a discussion.

    I'll think on the idea of showing the date of first post. It's an interesting thought.
  • edited September 2009
    Lincoln wrote: »
    "New Posts" is the default view of Vanilla forums. Rather than being presented with Categories and needing to choose one, you get to see all the new posts right away with the option of filtering down to one category if you choose.

    You can see the basic format of the software here: http://vanillaforums.org/discussions

    However, I will be making several adjustments to the default and have indeed been thinking of a way to reveal an excerpt from the most recent post in a discussion.

    I'll think on the idea of showing the date of first post. It's an interesting thought.

    Yikes! That design is horrid, Matt. I hope that you guys deliver some serious CSS Kung-fu like you have here on the current boards to spice it up. If that is the case, we could all be in for a huge treat! I also like the idea of having excerpts from the most recent posts on the front page. Does the software have an e-mail notification feature like the one currently in use? I enjoy getting notices of new replies in email. I makes it easier to keep track of how many discussions I'm in.

    ~nomad
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited September 2009
    Too much blue? ;) What's better about it is the functionality. Instead of hiding all the discussions behind categories that you need to go into to see anything, it gives you ALL the new discussions and then gives you the option to filter them by category if you want.

    As for its design, it will either be very similar to what we have now (color scheme and texture-wise) or I'll be creating a new design from scratch. Depends how much time I have to put into it :)

    The email replies aren't in the product yet, but I'm told that feature will be added before the final release. It's an essential feature to many members, so I will make sure it's there before we switch.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited September 2009
    One feature I can't live without is the 'New Posts' button at the top of each page. That's what I use every time I come here.

    I pull up the list of new posts and then open each thread in a new tab. I right click on the circle with the arrow in it at the beginning of the title on the list page so it brings me right to the first unread post instead of to the beginning of the thread.

    That way I have all the threads with new posts neatly lined up in my tab bar.

    I've been using the site this way for 2 years because it's so fast and easy.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, that's what I do, too.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited September 2009
    'New Posts' is what the new home page will be :) You won't even have to click the button.
  • edited September 2009
    Lincoln wrote: »
    Too much blue? ;)

    Definitely ;)
    Lincoln wrote: »
    The email replies aren't in the product yet, but I'm told that feature will be added before the final release. It's an essential feature to many members, so I will make sure it's there before we switch.

    Wonderful to hear. We really get some first class service on this forum. Kudos to you and the rest of the team that manage the site.

    ~nomad

    sage.gif
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Hear, hear!
    'New Posts' is what the new home page will be You won't even have to click the button
    That's great, Lincoln! Even faster and easier!
  • edited October 2009
    I see you are trying to break away from the traditional forum layout, eh? I've never really cared for the newer concepts - such as Vanilla.

    It's probably a moot suggestion, but please consider MyBB - http://community.mybboard.net/ I've used it for several projects and it is incredibly lightweight and fast. I personally wouldn't use anything else...
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2009
    If I want to stick with traditional forum software, vBulletin wins hands down. Its bloat is matched only by its infinite raft of features and options.

    I'm getting heavily involved with Vanilla 2 and will make sure we have the issues ironed out before we make the switch. I really think you're going to be pleasantly surprised at what you find when you start using it.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited December 2009
    I'm guessing early to mid-January will be when we migrate. I will be talking about it and explaining more as we get closer.
  • edited December 2009
    only been on the site for 3 months and already attached to it...must remember impermanence in all things. Welcome new format whatever you will be with open arms:tonguec:
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited March 2010
    I got a fulltime job at the end of January which threw a major wrench into my timeline. Plans haven't changed, just got a lot longer and drawn out over many weekends. :-/
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Congrats on the job!
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited March 2010
    Thanks!
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I for one, am so NOT looking forward to the software change. It seems like a HUUUUGE step down to go to just a plain listing of posts, from what we have now. I realize you can sort by section if you want, but still, Vanilla seems nowhere near as refined, feature rich and eye-friendly as vBulletin.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    It seems like a HUUUUGE step down to go to just a plain listing of posts, from what we have now. I realize you can sort by section if you want, but still
    Are you the 1 person who doesn't click "New Posts" first? :p Vanilla takes what we all do anyway and makes it easier. :) I don't understand how having the entire index page taken up with a category list is more useful than putting the list in the sidebar and focusing on what we're looking for: discussions.
    Vanilla seems nowhere near as refined, feature rich and eye-friendly as vBulletin.
    A forum is only as eye-friendly as its theme; I suspect you're comparing apples to oranges.

    I actually want to ditch vBulletin because it's so feature "rich" (not the adjective I'd use). The admin panel is a maddening tangle and it's impossible to customize efficiently. All those doodads take time to learn how to use, which scares off casual users. I've come to believe the cost of vBulletin is its mess of features. :)
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Lincoln wrote: »
    Are you the 1 person who doesn't click "New Posts" first?

    You got me there. I don't click "new posts" first. I go into each category and choose what I want to look at and respond to. I'm different or dumb like that.
    I don't understand how having the entire index page taken up with a category list is more useful than putting the list in the sidebar and focusing on what we're looking for: discussions.

    Having the index page show you the categories, is more friendly to the forum newcomers. Rather than seeing a listing of threads they know nothing about and don't know what nearly-invisible category they came from, they get to choose and specify their searching into one category as a start.

    I agree that "new posts" is helpful, but not to newcomers. And if I understand you right, you are wanting to attract new members, so this might be something you want to take into account.

    Opening a forum site and being blasted with a list of threads in a seemingly random order, is not what I'd call newcomer friendly.
    A forum is only as eye-friendly as its theme; I suspect you're comparing apples to oranges.

    You are right. I think I just feel so "at home" with vBulletin, that I see it as more eye-friendly than anything else.
    I actually want to ditch vBulletin because it's so feature "rich" (not the adjective I'd use). The admin panel is a maddening tangle and it's impossible to customize efficiently.

    I've seen cases of great looking and functioning customization with vBulletin. As an example, I used to be active in the "iLounge.com" forums, as I own a couple iPods and use iTunes, and I've seen them customize and modernize the forums to a huge degree over the years. I think their forums look great and have all the great features vBulletin offers, that I haven't seen in other software.
    All those doodads take time to learn how to use, which scares off casual users.

    That may very well be true, but if you reduce the features the more established users can access, then you might see a reduction in the number of active members who can't be bothered to downgrade their experience.

    You might get more casual users, who post once or twice and then never return tho, that's true. Everything in life has a learning curve, and if the casual user, as you call them, can't hang around long enough to learn how to use these features, then do we even really want him/her here?

    Are we actually giving more weight to the random person who posts once or twice and then never returns, than to the established members who post often and MAKE this forum what it is?

    Is this software change up for debate? or as an Admin you make the call and no one else gets a say in it? Just curious to see what would happen if it's put to a vote, that's all.
  • edited May 2010
    I guess I'm the second person that doesn't hit "New Posts"... I rarely use that feature.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    Having the index page show you the categories, is more friendly to the forum newcomers.
    I disagree. I think it's hiding content.
    being blasted with a list of threads in a seemingly random order
    When you open up CNN, do you feel blasted by headlines? Or can we assume people understand "most recent first" nowadays? :)
    you might see a reduction in the number of active members who can't be bothered to downgrade their experience.
    I think you overestimate the importance of this feature list and underestimate what a barrier they are to actual participation.
    and if the casual user, as you call them, can't hang around long enough to learn how to use these features, then do we even really want him/her here?
    Yes. You shouldn't have to even think about the software. You should just talk.
    Are we actually giving more weight to the random person who posts once or twice and then never returns, than to the established members who post often and MAKE this forum what it is?
    Here you're creating some sort of correlation between people who master vBulletin and people with worthwhile opinions. I'm here to tell you there is none.
    Is this software change up for debate? or as an Admin you make the call and no one else gets a say in it? Just curious to see what would happen if it's put to a vote, that's all.
    I'm not that curious because I expect few (if any) members know Vanilla well enough to make a comparison, and you only see half the story (the front end).

    Here's my position: There's a LOT I want to do for NewBuddhist and my other site, Icrontic. I will do none of it so long as we're running vBulletin. I hate it and its parent company with unbridled fury for reasons too numerous (and exhausting) to list here. The very fact that we're still running vBulletin irritates me every time I visit.

    The decision to move software was made long ago, but that doesn't mean you don't get a say in what happens after that. :)
  • edited May 2010
    Out of curiosity, can Vanilla have the capabilities of showing the category view of the main page as a category list, and a list of new posts to returning members? It's a pretty easy PHP fix either way :D.

    Lightwithin, CSS has amazing powers of reskinning! Funny enough, the site demonstrating this is called the CSS 'Zen' Garden :D. http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/213/213.css&page=0 Notice the list on the right to select different skins, or themes. All the content remains the same, but the CSS can change everything.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    All good points Lincoln. I agree with you on some, disagree on others. Too lazy to make a quote by quote post, but if the software switch is happening whether the members like it or not, then I guess I better conform to the law, or else just move along. (Sounds a bit "fascist" tho).

    I admit I don't know Vanilla well enough to complain about it yet, but somehow I have the feeling vBulletin is so widely used because its better than the rest, or else everyone would have front pages with random content.
  • johnathanjohnathan Canada Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Wow... there's a button that shows you all the new posts... hmmm... you learn something every day... I, like Lightwithin, just go to the category that interests me and go from there... but mine is not a choice, I just never saw it or looked for it... I will be using from now on though... thanks...
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    I have the feeling vBulletin is so widely used because its better than the rest
    Vanilla 2 just hit Release Candidate 1 on Friday. It's not even finalized, and shares nothing with Vanilla 1 but a name. vBulletin is the defacto software package because it's the king of the old school forums - it won the feature war. However, I believe that school is dying and Vanilla 2 marks the start of something different. I don't think number of features is a useful metric any longer. Now what forums need is a well-designed experience, and I believe Vanilla does that best.

    Before someone says "oh no, untested software!" - I'm one of the contributors and have a close watch on its progress; it's ready for prime time. :D By the time the extra pieces I require are finalized by myself and others, I expect it will be at or near final release anyway.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    I consider moving from vBulletin to Vanilla 2 to be a kind of master's thesis for me. I've been honing my skill as a PHP web developer, managing communities, and using vBulletin for seven years now. I've studied and pondered communities and forum software to a depth and length few people have, and after all that I'm convinced this is the correct course of action.

    I'm not explaining this because I'm proud; rather, I want you to understand my confidence. This isn't something I woke up one day to decree. It's a careful process of consideration that's close to finally being realized.

    I don't think there's any "law" to conform to here. You'll not like the Vanilla for the first 2 weeks because it's different and you're invested in understanding vBulletin. At the end of a month you'll start to warm to it, and after 2 months or so you'll hate browsing vBulletin forums. At least, that was my experience. :D
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Lincoln wrote: »
    vBulletin is the defacto software package because it's the king of the old school forums - it won the feature war.
    I'm not familiar with forum software, but I've watched other types of software develop from cutting edge to mature market. As Lincoln says, the early winners tend to be the one's that offer the most features. As people gain experience with the software, they begin to realize that many of the features don't get used much, and developers start offering software with the most commonly used features, without the less commonly used features.

    Generally, the more features software has, the harder it is to learn to use it. If forum software is like other server software, the big problem is configuration. You spend countless hours pouring through the documentation and posting questions on user forums trying to figure out how to get everything set up properly. The more complex the software, the more time you spend. Once the server is up and running, you're going to need to make occasional changes in the configuration. Since you don't do this very often, you're going to have to grovel through the documentation again and post more questions on user forums in order to figure out how to make the configuration changes.

    The more complicated the configuration, the more likely you are to make a mistake that creates a security hole. You probably won't be aware of the hole at first. It could lie in wait for years as your forum becomes more popular, and then some cracker may discover the hole right when you've developed a big pool of participants and a security exploit can do the maximum amount of damage. This is apparently what happened to E-sangha.

    Also, the more bloated the software is with features, the more bugs it contains. All bugs are potentially security holes, and all software has bugs. It's just a matter of finding them. The more popular software is, the more people there are looking for ways to break the security and do damage. The feature rich software used at the big commercial sites is also more likely to be a target for security exploits. Smaller sites that don't need a lot of features are better off using smaller, simpler software both because it is likely to have fewer bugs, and because there are likely to be fewer bad guys trying to find security holes. For conscientious admins who keep up with security patches, simpler software also means less work.

    As I said, I'm not familiar with forum software. I'm just pointing out the logic that drives admins to use smaller, simpler servers where possible. Lincoln may have other reasons specific to this site.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Make me the fourth person.

    Where the hell is this mythical button? :[
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I'll be damned. There it is.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    It's not your fault; it's poor design.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Lincoln wrote: »
    It's not your fault; it's poor design.

    Well, couldn't it be different if the forums were customized (within the vBulletin template) to have easier access?

    The way you say it, you make it sound like the "new posts" button is on the same spot on ALL vBulletin forums.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited May 2010
    I don't use it either (#5).
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Hmmm...it seems many big forum regulars don't use the "new posts" button and rather surf the forums via categories...Interesting.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Me neither.

    Palzang
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited May 2010
    Hmmm...it seems many big forum regulars don't use the "new posts" button and rather surf the forums via categories...Interesting.

    Yes, I prefer to browse through thread titles that interest me and not all new posts, but I'm down to see what Vanilla 2 can do.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I wonder how all these folks are gonna feel when they get the categories view taken away in favor of a random listing of posts on the front page.

    NOT good I'd say.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Jason wrote: »
    Yes, I prefer to browse through thread titles that interest me and not all new posts, but I'm down to see what Vanilla 2 can do.

    I know what you mean. This is the way I browse the forums too. Pick a category you're interested in at the moment, and then go from there.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    when they get the categories view taken away in favor of a random listing of posts on the front page.
    There's nothing in that post that was true. For the last time:

    1) THE CATEGORIES WILL STILL BE LISTED ON THE FRONT PAGE IN THE SIDEBAR

    2) THE POSTS WILL NOT BE IN RANDOM ORDER

    I'm cool with discussing merits of forum software; I'm not cool with spreading disinformation.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    Well, couldn't it be different if the forums were customized (within the vBulletin template) to have easier access?

    The way you say it, you make it sound like the "new posts" button is on the same spot on ALL vBulletin forums.
    In the default template, it's a tiny option in the "navbar" that runs below the header, making it seem like a section of the site rather than an action ("find new posts"). Also, all this site's template does is relocate the navbar to the top of the page and make it look nicer. It's a nightmare to disassemble the navbar and still make an option like that easily accessible from all pages.

    Have you ever themed a vBulletin site? It's a collection of 150-200 poorly-named templates (any guess what "shell_blank" does?) that you can only edit using a web form text box (like the Reply box). It was cool in 2002. In 2010, it's pathetic.

    More from me on vBulletin vs. Wordpress and vBulletin's atrocious blog plugin.
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Lincoln wrote: »
    1) THE CATEGORIES WILL STILL BE LISTED ON THE FRONT PAGE IN THE SIDEBAR

    I realize there are gonna be categories on the sidebar, but the main thing that your eye will be drawn to when you open the page will be the list of postings. Right?
    THE POSTS WILL NOT BE IN RANDOM ORDER

    The posts will be in "latest first" order, I know. Not random. Sorry. It just LOOKS random to someone new to the page that's what I was getting at.

    But anyway. I think it's pretty pointless to discuss this any further, since the option to stay with vBulletin has been discarded already and the decision has been made to go with Vanilla, which we as forum members have no say on.

    I won't be making any more waves here and I'm sorry if I got a lil annoying there for a second Lincoln. I'll stay out of your hair now. :)
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited May 2010
    But anyway. I think it's pretty pointless to discuss this any further, since the option to stay with vBulletin has been discarded already and the decision has been made to go with Vanilla, which we as forum members have no say on.
    Everything change, nothing is permanent lightwithin ;)
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited May 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    Everything change, nothing is permanent lightwithin ;)

    This is actually a good reminder for this particular situation. It's just hard to go with the flow sometimes for me, but I'll do my best.

    And Lincoln, trust me, I WANT to be able to come back and EAT my tradionalist words when we start using Vanilla and I actually LIKE it, but change is hard for me, so maybe that's why I'm kicking and screaming so much about this.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited May 2010
    I realize there are gonna be categories on the sidebar, but the main thing that your eye will be drawn to when you open the page will be the list of postings. Right?
    Correct, which is not what you said: "categories view taken away." Moving to the sidebar is not the same as taking away. If you prefer to browse by category, it will be no more difficult than it is now. Dare I say it will be easier because you won't have to scroll down the page?
    change is hard for me, so maybe that's why I'm kicking and screaming so much about this.
    That truly is the crux of the matter, which is why I continue responding... even if I get a bit perturbed. ;)
  • edited May 2010
    How about we just convert the database tables to MyBB and call it a day...
  • edited May 2010
    Well, so long as the category sidebar is noninvasive and doesn't dilute the content, I think it's helpful through a usability perspective, since it will be less clicks. In fact, I'm used to vBulletin forums and I do UI testing as part of my job, and found that the current setup for vBulletin in this forum for new users isn't the most ideal setup (new posts button is hard to find). It's like Amazon or Ebay - someone can filter content by category if they want, but otherwise it's the newest posts. I'm working on a real estate site now that works with the exact same setup. Looking forward to the outcome of this! Do you have a link to a forum using Vanilla (Vanilla 2 beta?) already Lincoln? Never had to deal with the admin end of a forum yet, but would be interested in seeing the frontend of it in action.
Sign In or Register to comment.