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Eating of meat - Where is the line drawn?
Guys, I'm having an internal struggle at the moment.
All life is sacred, and by eating meat, I am starting to feel like I'm doing something really bad. Although I did not kill the animal, I am helping others profit from killing.
Where is the line drawn? What animals are "okay" to eat? Bugs? Lizards? Fish? And is it judged by intelligence or what? What about eggs?
Also, I am allergic to certain foods, and I live in a place where it's hard to get good vegetable, not to mention there are basically no veggie options anywhere.
I'm just... Feeling a little lost at the moment.
My life is no more worth than the life of others, but it is my duty to keep my body as healthy as possible. But, if I am keeping my own body healthy by feeding on the body of other creatures, what does that make me?
Where should I stop thinking of others, and start thinking of myself? Where should I start thinking of others and stop thinking about myself?
Will the eating of meat while in this damaged body backfire horribly at me when the time comes to start my next life?
All life is sacred, and by eating meat, I am starting to feel like I'm doing something really bad. Although I did not kill the animal, I am helping others profit from killing.
Where is the line drawn? What animals are "okay" to eat? Bugs? Lizards? Fish? And is it judged by intelligence or what? What about eggs?
Also, I am allergic to certain foods, and I live in a place where it's hard to get good vegetable, not to mention there are basically no veggie options anywhere.
I'm just... Feeling a little lost at the moment.
My life is no more worth than the life of others, but it is my duty to keep my body as healthy as possible. But, if I am keeping my own body healthy by feeding on the body of other creatures, what does that make me?
Where should I stop thinking of others, and start thinking of myself? Where should I start thinking of others and stop thinking about myself?
Will the eating of meat while in this damaged body backfire horribly at me when the time comes to start my next life?
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Comments
I feel a slight guilt but less and less. If I didn't eat meat, I'd feel guilty that I'm not taking care of myself properly. It's a question of balance.
In current world we have civil law of defining right or wrong , if you steal you are wrong because stealing is wrong act and you go to jail ...In Buddha there are no right act or wrong act ....if you steal you because you do not understand Buddha so when you move to higher awareness you will regret your bad act thats your karma. You ON YOUR OWN WILL changed and rectify your mistake ...no one , no force , no teacher will tell you , force you , guide you or punish you ...you will do it because you know your Buddha .
Ok now let us talk about your case....
The food that I take no matter what whether is meat , vegetable I must know for what purpose I eat .....if I sincerely think I eat or kill just to maintain my body to survive well I do it....because that is my awareness at this point... but when I kill or eat just to enjoy or for fun ....maybe one day I will regret it....thats my awareness at this point ...maybe I will change my views on this matter if I move to higher awareness...
to me animal or vegetable or anything In buddha all is equal is all same .... but as a person I am of the opinion vegetable show more Buddha spirit to me compared to animal....vegetable just like human , they breath oxygen just like us , need food , need space , have children or even make love maybe not the same way like human..just like us ...but they never distrub others , they never kill , never ask for more space than required they even use our waste ( co2 ) to eat and give out O2 for all....they are actually more Buddha than animal...and our monk had target them for thousand of years.....so pity our friend...
In Buddha love is un-conditional , we have to sincerely give love , show love and accept love to all-equally to living and non-living .just like helping a baby birds back to her nest but we dont expect she thanks us or we dont keep them as pets Give same and equal love to our children , same equal love to the robber that rob us and even same and equal love to the virus that attact our cell...
I think maybe the most suitable food in term of Buddha is fruits witout seeds or before eat we throw the seed to soil.....thats is the best food for me at my current awareness.....thats Buddha but in reality I still need many process...
Sorry in advance eating vege maybe more " sinfull " than meat.....
You are suggesting we eat only seedless fruits or have them removed before we throw them away? Why not go the extra step and eat only fruit which has dropped off the trees they grow from? Why not carry a broom everywhere we go to sweep away any insect we might accidentally step on? Better yet, we shouldn't wear clothes because the cloth is made usually of plant and animal material, and using them means we cause them to suffer. And in order not to cause anyone to suffer see you die, might as well go into a hidden place far far away and starve to death.
What I am describing here is Jainism at its most extreme. Do you want to do that? You'll be forever hungry, and naked. Sure, your dignity and sense of shame will be gone, and so will your stomach with the infrequent meals, but hey, at least you are kind to the world, at your own expense.
Come on . Let's be practical. Human beings have evolved to be omnivores, meaning we are supposed to eat meat as well as plants. You have to eat what you have to eat, and be grateful for the very fact that you have food to eat. That's what Buddha taught, and that's what we should do.
WARNING!!! RANT HERE!!!
I'm really sorry that my tone is harsh, but I think I really need to get it off my chest, for your sake. I'm really afraid you might go in the wrong direction and get further confused about what Buddhism really is about.
From what I gather from your posts so far, you want to learn about Buddhism and how to practice, but you are too scared to really ask the monks and other practitioners who have much more knowledge than you, and you are too arrogant to really learn and study from books and listen to audio and watch Dharma talks. Which leaves you no choice but to come here and make us spoonfeed you with what we have learned from our own practices and study and instructions from our teachers and questions we have already asked before. All behind the veil of the internet, where you are not recognized and so you don't have to lose "face" in front of people.
I have many friends and relatives in Malaysia, and your attitude is called "BODOH SOMBONG" in BM, meaning you are ignorant about the things you want to know, but you are too worried about being embarrassed by asking a seemingly stupid question or showing you don't understand something.
Look, we all have to go through tough times and being embarrassed by our teachers because we do not understand something which can seem very simple and straightforward. Yet all of us ignore the fact that we are embarrassed and make an effort to learn and understand what we are taught in order for us to advance to more difficult understanding.
This is not to say that it is wrong for you to sponge off what we have learned, we are more than happy to share that knowledge. But ask yourself, are you really here to share what you think Buddhism is, or are you here to make us do the difficult work of asking questions that you are so afraid to ask in person?
***TIDAK ADA SESIAPA YANG BOLEH TOLONG KAMU KALAU KAMU SENDIRI TIDAK MAHU DITOLONG*** No one is able to help you if you are not willing to help yourself. There are many many books on Buddhism. You can't read English and Chinese? ZFine. There are many books in BM as well. I know because I have read them before! And they are more often than not, free for you to take home and read!
So don't give us the excuse that these teachers and so on are not willing to teach you and keep bring you down. If you are open to what they say, and you think about what they say, it may make more sense than your own ideas instead.
I personally do not eat meat. I do not condemn people who eat meat to survive, or when no other options are available, but I strongly urge people to follow a vegetarian diet whenever possible.
Try not to be extremist about this - it is good to be vegetarian, but that is not always possible. I've had to accept a compromise around fish oils, since my health condition means that I should really take them. But Buddhism - unlike a lot of religions which are dogmatic, does not say "This is the right way always" "This is the wrong".
It is a difficult exercise to not be black-and-white about such issues. You will notice there is a lot of social pressure to be one thing or the not - part-time vegetarianism is looked upon as weird. But I believe it is an invaluable spiritual lesson in non-attachment to concepts like "vegetarian".
Being vegetarian can be a dangerous trap: you can start to feel morally superior, treating meat-eaters badly and becoming obsessive about what you eat. It becomes a big deal, and a distraction from toher issues. You also have to work hard not to get sucked-in to the whole animal-rights activist thing - round my way, there are activists who are full of hate for human beings. Not something any Buddhist should want to get wrapped up in.
So anyway, moderation in all things.
Maybe the guilt is coming from some christian roots, as I grew up in a Laestadian town. They're very... Orthodox and old-fashion. You know, the kind of people who tell children God will punish them for sinning. My parents are atheists, though, and I started telling the other kids at school about evolution and such very early on. And got scolded for it.
Anyhow.
I used to be a vegetarian, and then I expanded it to pescatarian.
... Although I guess a lot of girls have a phase when they're teenagers where they want to be veggies.
Although I know there is no right and wrong, I still often find it very hard to find a path to walk, especially when I realise I don't live like the monks at all, and I have read like, none of the books I "should" read when it comes to buddhism. Unless "The Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy" read 5 times in 2 different languages count, lol.
Anyways, thanks, guys.
After an intensive 1 week retreat he cooked us a lamb dish. It was the first time in 2 years that i had eaten meat - but the message was clear - do not be extremist. Ada_B explains it beautifully.
No offense, CSEe, but I can't understand a thing you write
If its any consolation, I tried.
AdaB: Bingo! You hit the nail squarely on the head! Well said.
i also agree with the morally superior bit. a vegetarian friend of mine would be extremely rude to our other friends who ate meat in front of her, it was obnoxious.
and just wondering, but instead of taking fish oil supplements, have you looked into incorporating flax seed oil into your diet? flax seed oil contains an omega 3 that we cannot produce naturally and you don't have to worry about mercury contamination.
However, there are concerns about heavy metal contamination with supplements of the blue-green algaes, and research into connective tissue disorders like mine showed that only actual fish oil seemed to be beneficial. It is believed there may be still other micronutrients in oily fish that have yet to be identified.
I get a bit fed up of healthfood places selling flax oil as a substitute for fish oil when actually it is a totally different form of omega 3. Plant-based omega 3 has not been shown to have any beneficial health effects.
Since my condition is quite serious, I made the decision that fish oils were the best choice, although it is an uncomfortable choice for me.
namaste
December 24, 2007, Translated by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche & Karma Choephel
Now we are finishing the 25th Kagyu Monlam in a very auspicious way, and there is not a whole lot for a fool like me to say. A great crowd of monks and nuns from the different Kagyu monasteries have come here. Similarly, there are many people who have come here from Ü, Tsang, and Kham in Tibet. A great number of people from foreign countries, both East and West, have also come. For all of you to come here is, as I have already said, a wonderful great fortune for all of us, for myself and for you, and I am very happy about this.
Last year on the final day of the Kagyu Monlam, I said a few things on the subject of giving up eating meat. Almost all of you probably already know this. It seems some people did not completely understand what I said. For example, some foreign students seemed to think it meant that once you become a student of the Kagyu, meat is not allowed to pass your lips. They told all the meat-eating Kagyupas, “You can’t be a Kagyupa if you eat meat.” I did not say anything that inflammatory. If a Mahayana practitioner, who considers all sentient beings to be like their father or mother, eats the flesh of another being out of carelessness and without any compassion, that is not good. So we need to think about this and pay attention to it. All of us Mahayana practitioners, who accept that all sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, need to think about this. For that reason, it would be good to decrease the amount of meat that we eat. That is what I said.
I certainly did not say that you are not allowed to eat meat at all. That would be difficult. Whether it is because of previous karma or their present circumstances, some people cannot do without meat. This is how it is, and there’s nothing to do about it. It’s not a problem.
If you have to eat meat, there is a proper way to eat it. Do not just grab it and stuff it into your mouth as soon as it is put on your plate. If first you think carefully about it, meditate on compassion, and recite the names of buddhas or mantras before eating, then it has some positive effects.
When I was explaining this last year, I said that one reason to give up eating meat was for the long life of the lamas. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, passed through his “obstacle year” according to Tibetan astrology, so it was for his long life. Next year will be his post–obstacle year. I also brought up my own name. On one hand, it may have been out of desperation that I said, “If you do this for my own long life, that would be good.” Some people have asked how it is that their giving up eating meat could bring me a longer life. It’s difficult to give a direct answer to that question.
But if we don’t eat meat, even if we don’t live longer, I think we will live happier lives. If we enjoy the flesh and blood of other beings, then at the time we have to go, we might feel as if this life didn’t turn out so well. We will have carelessly consumed the flesh and blood of other beings. That might happen, right? If we don’t eat meat, life might not be longer, but there is a possibility we might be more satisfied.
Many monasteries in India and Nepal have done such great, positive things as giving up meat and cooking vegetarian food instead. This is a good example for Buddhism in general, and I think it especially becomes Mahayana practice.
In our eyes, such high lamas as Jamgon Rinpoche and Gyaltsap Rinpoche are the living presence of Manjushri and Vajrapani. Out of care for sentient beings, they intend to refrain from eating meat and to become vegetarian. I think that for them to have such an intention is actually a great fortune for all of us sentient beings; it is good fortune for all of their followers.
Some of the other high lamas who are here, Thrangu Rinpoche and Tenga Rinpoche, were present during the time of the previous Karmapa, and they are like the pillars of the teachings. Throughout their lives they have developed strong habits of eating meat. However, out of their concern for beings and the Buddhist teachings, they have taken great steps in this direction. For that reason, all of us who call ourselves their followers need to think about this.
Everyone is really trying their best. For example, in Tibet, in the old days there was no way to live without eating butter, cheese, and meat. Now maybe because of better environmental conditions, or because Tibetans have such strong faith, or because they are stubborn, the monasteries even in many remote places have promised to give up meat. When we think about it, there are many people here in India who generally do not like eating meat. So when those of you who live here give up meat, it is not really anything novel. For people in Tibet, however, to give up meat is a big deal. I would like to say thank you to all of them. We need to keep doing everything we can.
We should contemplate the Mahayana teachings and the precious teachings of the Kagyus. The earlier Kagyu masters gave up meat, took up a vegetarian diet, and developed pure love for sentient beings. If we ourselves can take up even the smallest aspect of this sort of action and start with something small, it will turn out extremely well, I think. So that is what I have to say about giving up meat.
Either way, my reason not to eat meat is mainly because I find it more healthy in current society.
Theravada
The Buddha specifically refused suggestions by Devadatta to institute vegetarianism in the Sangha. He did not prohibit the eating of meat.
Mahayana
Vegetarian diet is generally recommend, for they believe that the Buddha insisted that his followers should not eat meat or fish.
Mahayana - Vajrayana
It seems that the act of eating meat is not always prohibited, for example Tibetan Buddhism.
One Gotama Buddha, different stories. So, decide for yourself!
However, if in an emergency... am willing to eat fish and birds.
since you seem to know a lot about it, which types of oil are the best? i have bought fish oil in the past but i was always rather confused when it came to what sort of a source i should purchase as they come from many different types of fish. my only reply to this is that i have been off and on veg for 6 years now. 2 years strict veg, 1 year pescatarian (only eats fish). then i ate meat for a year, and i'm close to 2 years of a more liberal veg diet that i explained above. everything i do is based on health reasons and what i feel in my body. i had a lot of digestive problems growing up and i never paid attention to it because i thought it was normal. a veg diet took my problems away. when i went back to eating meat for a year, the effects it had on my body convinced me to stop eating meat again. something that i have never heard anyone else talk about, but that i found to be true with myself, is that when i eat meat i have HORRIBLE menstrual periods. i mean, lying on the floor, chugging pain pills and puking from the pain (i almost never take pain pills aside from this time). for some reason, i do not experience this (at least, EXTREMELY rarely) when i stick to eating veg. oddly enough, i did eat a lot of meat over the holidays (i had 5 christmas parties to go to) and guess what? i had to call in to work again because of my cramps directly following this. i have wondered if maybe it has something to do with the amount of iron, but i can't be sure. i know i'm not typically anemic.
at this point, i don't really care what others do. to be honest, i am even sad that my girlfriend is a vegetarian because i frequently feel like she does it just for me. i know that if i started eating meat again, she would as well, but i also know that a lot of the reason she sticks with it is because of the health benefits she experiences as well. for example, when we first started dating, she had horrible indigestion that plagued her several times a week. after i ate meat over the holidays, i had this problem and it wasn't until then that we realized somewhere along the lines she stopped having it altogether.
so point being, i really don't mind anymore what others do... but it does bother me when people try to tell me how unhealthy i'm being. i don't know what it is about being a vegetarian, but people verbally assault me ALL THE TIME. it's very annoying to be forced to explain yourself over and over and over again. i don't know why meat eaters instantly assume that just because i don't eat meat (or rarely, whatever) that i am judging them. when i would eat McDonalds all the time no one was like, "um...listen, what you're doing is extremely unhealthy..." but you order a veggie burger and instantly it's all, "how can you survive? it's not healthy!"
:banghead:
Where do you live, that people verbally assault you all the time for being veggie? Just say it's a health issue. You don't have to justify yourself. If they're obnoxious, tell them they're being rude. You shouldn't have to live like that.