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Regardless of whether or not said theory has merit (and it has been heavily criticized), it doesn't refute what ThailandTom said: drugs are still extremely varied in their effects and cannot all be lumped together.
Also, people are diverse. I have been in numerous social groups where drug users are included. Some smoke weed for 7 plus years and touch nothing else, others like myself go further. IMO, it is ludicrous how shrooms and LSD are categorized in the same class as heroin and crack/cocaine. Even ecstasy is not as bad as people think. People who are ignorant to drugs hear the word drugs and often lump them all into one category along with the people who take them. Alcohol and tobacco is okay according to the government though, yet it kills tens of thousands each year in the UK. Ecstasy kills 15 people a year, mostly due to mixing it with alcohol and over heating.
Going back to the OT, I think the buddha did take some kind of intoxicants before he fled his wealthy and famous lifestyle.
At least if you use drugs try to form a relationship with them that is conducive to your overall goals of your awareness practice.
Instead of forming a relationship with drugs, what about not having any sort of relationship with drugs and instead developing your awareness without the use of drugs through practice and understanding ? (also I doubt drugs can aid a persons "goals of awareness practice")
Lets not pretend that drugs can actually lead to any genuine insight, if you want insight it cannot be found cheaply and easily through drugs in my opinion, it needs lots of dedication, understanding commitment and practice. It cannot be found by simply popping a pill or whatever, if it could the world would be full of Buddha's right now.
Pamadatthana: ‘anything which destroys mindfulness’
veramani: ‘to refrain from’
sikkhāpadam: ‘the Precept’
samadiyami: ‘I undertake’
It seems to me that the 5th precept is concerning not just alcohol but any substance which interferes with mindfulness. Some people think it just applies to alcohol but a actual translation does not suggest that. If it did, then what need is there for "Pamadatthana"?
zidangus, but if someone is going to use drugs regardless, they should use them in such a way that minimizes the interference with word, speach, and body other than the drugs. And a way that nurtures generosity and discipline to practice the path.
I don't do drugs and they will definitely interfere to some extent. Nonetheless if someone is going to do them, then they should not lose sight of their awareness practice entirely. Do you understand zidangus?
Jeffrey, I do not understand you view, should we not be telling people to abandon drugs, not keep using them. And to suggest that they can aid a persons practice is irresponsible and just incorrect in my opinion. If a person wants to aid their practice I suggest that the best way to do this is through understanding the dharma and practicing the precepts along with meditation, as this is something that is long lasting and won't wear of in a few hours or days like the effects of drugs, and more importantly won't screw your life up.
Zidangus until they give up drugs they should continue their awareness practice. Giving up drugs is not trivial, like changing to half lotus or something. I suggest you have some hang ups or aversion to drug users. Only through compassion can you give up drugs. Guess how you learn compassion? By example. Someone enjoys compassion from you and they want to give it to themselves.
Therefore you must be compassionate to drug users. Of course not enabling their habit but genuine warmth and love.
I'll elaborate. I took pharmacy school, and urging to stop drugs is less helpful if the user is not at that stage. Their are 6 to 10 stages of giving up drugs. The first step is through questions to elaborate what stage they are at.
For example they may not have even recognized any disadvantage to their drug use. Or they may recognize but have not the desire to change. Or they may have attempted to quit and be unable. Or they may have been succesful for awhile but couldn't maintain. Relapsed.
It is important to taylor the type of help you give to the stage they are at. If you simply say 'don't do drugs' like Nancy Reagan it is less effective.
All these enlightening experiences are phony as far as im concerned and ive had a lot of them, including shrooms, LSD and DMT. For example, DMT is a dissociative drug and it induces certain "types" of trips. Although everyone will have a different trip they all fall in a similar "type". They also have been highly studied and we know what it does to the brain.
Nothing authentic about it. Also, just look at people who use it all the time...I think they are moving away from reality rather than closer to it.
Zidangus until they give up drugs they should continue their awareness practice. Giving up drugs is not trivial, like changing to half lotus or something. I suggest you have some hang ups or aversion to drug users. Only through compassion can you give up drugs. Guess how you learn compassion? By example. Someone enjoys compassion from you and they want to give it to themselves.
Therefore you must be compassionate to drug users. Of course not enabling their habit but genuine warmth and love.
I assure you Jeffrey, I have no hang ups or aversion about drug users, as I have mentioned I have had old friends who have died because of drugs. I also do not agree that only compassion can allow a person to give up drugs, what about understanding and knowledge of the effects drugs have on a persons life ? I know giving up drugs is not trivial, I never said it was, but making light of the consequences of drug use is not trivial either. Lastly the statement you made
"Again if a drug can help you achieve a stable state of mind and promote the eight fold path then in theory it would be helpful. At least if you use drugs try to form a relationship with them that is conducive to your overall goals of your awareness practice."
"And note that the precepts generally discourage drugs. But each path is different and many are winding."
in my opinion sounds irresponsible and also sounds like you have no idea that drugs actually wreck life's, and they certainly do not allow a person to achieve stable states of mind that promote the eight-fold path, and the reason the precepts discourage drugs, is simply the common sense that drugs take you down the path of misery and suffering and not the path to insight.
I have successfully given up alcohol and I found compassion essential to become mindful and resist cravings. You have to do it out of caring in my opinion. In my statements I am acknowledging that if someone is doing drugs they should do them such that their awareness practice continues. That they shouldn't stop practicing buddhism. First of all logically their awareness practice can HELP. It can help them to get off drugs. Resisting cravings and love and compassion are fundamental to minfulness meditation and the right view of opening to experience and seeing it clearly. Second if they cannot get off drugs their life can still be improved by having an awareness practice. Have you seen how certain drug users suffer less than others? On that basis of happiness they should use drugs wisely rather than in the most foolish manner possible. If you believe in rebirth then definitely practice to have a better rebirth one where they are not addicted physically and entangled in as much karma.
I want to make clear that I am not advocating drugs I am just practical about the matter. Nancy Reagan's policy is not effective as I explained what I have learned in pharmacy school which is backed up by studies I would imagine.
Therefore I do have an idea that drugs may wreck a persons life. I don't agree that you may not practice the eightfold path. That path is for everyone. The dharmakaya radiates to all people and not just sober people. This is how joy and love is found in samsara. Even sadam husein may eventually become enlightened if he can imagine giving a single flower to a spiritual being such as a buddha. This is stated in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. I stand by my statements.
Therefore the notion that awareness practice and drug use are mutually exclusive is fundamentally and experientially flawed.
I never said that you could not practice the eight fold path if you are a drug user, I said that taking drugs does not in any way aid a person to achieve stable states of mind that promote the eight-fold path or gain insight, and I agree with you in that compassion is of great benefit in helping a drug user to quit drugs, but it is by no means the only thing that is needed to abandon drugs, it takes knowledge and understanding of the effects of drugs and also a strong wish to abandon them. I should also point out again that I thought your post was irresponsible because I think it makes light of drug use and seems to be saying drugs can actually help a person in their Buddhist practice. This is what I completely disagree with, hence, my comments are more directed about people who have not tried drugs before and are maybe thinking about it, if they read the views of your posts and a few others in this thread I might add, then they could quite conceivably come away thinking that they can really get something useful from drug use. Which they cannot, I repeat taking drugs wrecks life's.
Zidangus : You aren't promoting a lot of wisdom with statements like "drugs wreck life's".
To know about something you have to really explore it. I don't mean taking the drugs. But most people here has tried at least one type of drug I'm sure and survived to tell the tale. And their life's aren't wrecked.
@Jeffrey, as you know I am in serious trouble with benzos, today taking 5MG of clonazepam and I don't know how much valium. You seem to know a lot about these 6 stages. Can you please offer me some advice or knowledge on these steps. I am fully aware as being a drug user and abuser for many years that you can only quit when you truly want to. You can put someone in the most expensive rehab, but if they do not want to quit, when they leave they will most likely get back to drugs.
@Epicurus, yea drugs can ruin lives and I am sure most of us have tried at least one illegal substance. For me however, I tried over 20 and it has changed my life, yet I would not say ruined it, yet. If I carry on the way I am right now, I will be dead soon. 2 nights ago I took a lot of benzos and drank whisky with my gf, people say never miz benzos and alcohol as its fatal. Anyway, long story short, I woke up with little memory, blood on the floor, curtains and myself, smashed objects everywhere and my gfs belongings strewn outside. I went crazy according to people. Which is why I please ask Jeffrey to either PM me or elaborate on the steps and knowledge he gained on pharms. All the best,
Zidangus : You aren't promoting a lot of wisdom with statements like "drugs wreck life's".
To know about something you have to really explore it. I don't mean taking the drugs. But most people here has tried at least one type of drug I'm sure and survived to tell the tale. And their life's aren't wrecked.
Yes they are lucky, but what about the countless others who arn't so lucky, what about their wrecked lives ?, as I have said before and I will say again, I have high school friends who have died because of drug addiction, so please do not tell me I am not promoting wisdom, it is you who should think about your wisdom if you think drugs cannot wreck lives.
Zidangus : You aren't promoting a lot of wisdom with statements like "drugs wreck life's".
To know about something you have to really explore it. I don't mean taking the drugs. But most people here has tried at least one type of drug I'm sure and survived to tell the tale. And their life's aren't wrecked.
Yes they are lucky, but what about the countless others who arn't so lucky, what about their wrecked lives ?, as I have said before and I will say again, I have high school friends who have died because of drug addiction, so please do not tell me I am not promoting wisdom, it is you who should think about your wisdom if you think drugs cannot wreck lives.
Metta to all sentient beings
CAN wreck doesn't mean they always do. And it's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of karma. If you take drugs without researching about what they do to you, you might fuck up your life in a extreme way DEPENDING ON THE DRUG.
I'm sick of mindless anti-drug propaganda to be honest. Buddhism is about impartially evaluating things. No one ever died or ruined their lives because they smoked a joint.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi :P
I am pretty much trapped. I do not know how old you are epicrus, but trust me sometimes it starts with a joint and ends up in dark places. I am reaching out here to anyone with advanced knowledge of benzos. I need to stop, I will die soon, I have been lucky multiple times already, I just don't know how to stop. If i stop abruptly, I seize and maybe die. If I taper I get anxiety and withdraws, if I taper and become clean, I feel the need to fill a void with a different drug... I feel like I may just about go insane soon enough
Can't you get yourself back to the west Tom and get yourself some treatment? I've got a mate whose a former heroin, benzo and alcohol addict whose a drug councillor he tells me that even if you relapse after treatment don't beat yourself up about it just get back on the horse and try again. I was an amphetamine addict and ecstacy user for years and an alcoholic for many years. It took for me to go completely crazy and spend most of the next two years in psych hospitals for me to give up, then I moved away from the scene and I still occasionally fall off the wagon, last time was four months ago when I smoked a small amount of weed, I don't give myself a hard time about it just keep trying to give up, it gets easier mate. The fact that you mentioned trips at £5 a pop earlier on makes me think your a Brit, if you are you'd get treatment off the NHS, it may be a wait but you'd probably get a benzo script from the drug treatment teams particularly if your doing large amounts.
Anyway mate I hope you can get sort out your problems for most of us hardend abusers we usually don't do it until we areclose to the bottom of the manure heap that is addiction.
I'm 24 and have experimented with a couple drugs. The point of the matter is, buddhism teaches us impartiality, not assuming stuff and to be careful with quick correlations. Also we must take responsibility for what we do.
Tom, what you need right now is outside help. Go to a doctor. Get a friend to take you to the doctor.
I was on ecstasy for 4 years, that was my drug of choice among many. Yea I am a brit, the only reason why I stopped ex is because the quality got so bad before I left the UK. I can get back to the west, but I have a gf who I am attached here.. I know the NHS would sort me out, but I don't know if I can remain in the UK, especially without my gf. She can't just pack up and leave. THanks for your words though mate, Tom
Zidangus : You aren't promoting a lot of wisdom with statements like "drugs wreck life's".
To know about something you have to really explore it. I don't mean taking the drugs. But most people here has tried at least one type of drug I'm sure and survived to tell the tale. And their life's aren't wrecked.
Yes they are lucky, but what about the countless others who arn't so lucky, what about their wrecked lives ?, as I have said before and I will say again, I have high school friends who have died because of drug addiction, so please do not tell me I am not promoting wisdom, it is you who should think about your wisdom if you think drugs cannot wreck lives.
Metta to all sentient beings
CAN wreck doesn't mean they always do. And it's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of karma. If you take drugs without researching about what they do to you, you might fuck up your life in a extreme way DEPENDING ON THE DRUG.
I'm sick of mindless anti-drug propaganda to be honest. Buddhism is about impartially evaluating things. No one ever died or ruined their lives because they smoked a joint.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi :P
I never once said they can wreck everyone's life, and is one life not one to many ?
And as for karma, well for that to come to fruition as you suggest then it would only do so if the right conditions were there, namely taking drugs in the first place. You don't take drugs in the first place then you cannot become an addict and the karma that you talk about cannot come to fruition.
And I am also tired of pro drug propaganda from people who have never been unfortunate enough to experience the negative impact drugs can have on a person, their family and the community that they live in. You should maybe try living in a run down neighbourhood where drug use is high, and correspondingly crime is high and see if your pro drug attitude remains.
If you feel you are getting to a point where it's really dangerous you need a big change.
You know you need to get clear of drugs and medication (if possible). And you need doctors to help you to do that. If your gf loves you, she'll want the best for you.
@ThailandTom, mate, if your GF loves you she'll want to see you sorted out. You don't have to remain in the UK just stay long enough to get a grip on your habit mate.
CAN wreck doesn't mean they always do. And it's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of karma. If you take drugs without researching about what they do to you, you might fuck up your life in a extreme way DEPENDING ON THE DRUG.
I'm sick of mindless anti-drug propaganda to be honest. Buddhism is about impartially evaluating things. No one ever died or ruined their lives because they smoked a joint.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi :P
I never once said they can wreck everyone's life, and is one life not one to many ?
And as for karma, well for that to come to fruition as you suggest then it would only do so if the right conditions were there, namely taking drugs in the first place. You don't take drugs in the first place then you cannot become an addict and the karma that you talk about cannot come to fruition.
And I am also tired of pro drug propaganda from people who have never been unfortunate enough to experience the negative impact drugs can have on a person, their family and the community that they live in. You should maybe try living in a run down neighbourhood where drug use is high, and correspondingly crime is high and see if your pro drug attitude remains.
With Metta
Metta to all sentient beings
Why are you assuming where I live? Why are you assuming I don't know anyone who's life has been wrecked by drugs? Why are you assuming I'm pro-drugs?
I have said none of these things. Karma is not just action but the intention of the action. Cannabis, Ecstasy and LSD have all been for therapeutic reasons with good success.
My approach to drugs is IMPARTIAL. They aren't always bad. That I know. And from experience. I'm not saying people should do drugs. I'm not pro-drugs.
Please remove my name from your quotes in your last post.
If you want to know why I have the opinion that I have about where you live, etc etc then read your own posts, which clearly indicate your against anti drugs, have a lack of any experience with a drug addict, or experience living on an estate that has a drug problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In fact it would be more worrying if you actually did after all have experience living on an estate with a drug problem, and did have experience with drug addicts, that you still had the views you have.
I didn't live in a house with drug addicts (unless you count smokers), but I do have friends. I don't have to correct you in anything because you are the one assuming you are the only one here who knows people who suffered with drugs. THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
I clearly indicated I'm against anti drug people because only people that don't know WHY drugs cause problems are against the drugs themselves. Because drugs also help people. "Drugs" only has a negative connotation when they are illegal. Cocaine is not the same as MDMA or nicotine or meth or LSD or whatever but someone who says they are anti drugs lumps them all together simply because they are illegal. Alcohol would be illegal if it was invented today.
Some drugs are very dangerous (like heroine) where others are not. Certainly not more than alcohol or tobacco. But stupid propaganda brainwashes people. Also, no one talks of the research that is not being done one some drugs like LSD that could bring benefits to a lot of people. Like people with cluster headaches. A medicine couldn't possibly be commercialized because of a stupid law created years ago for stupid reasons because someone threw themselves off a building because of it.
If you know someone that is a sex addict do you blame sex? If you know someone who's been in a car accident do you blame cars?
does anybody know any drug rehabs in ha hin thailand or close to.... I think somebody posted in a different thread, but I cannot find it. Thanks for those who have helped, I know I need a doctor, yet I don't know if to go back to the UK or stay.
I didn't live in a house with drug addicts (unless you count smokers), but I do have friends. I don't have to correct you in anything because you are the one assuming you are the only one here who knows people who suffered with drugs. THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
I clearly indicated I'm against anti drug people because only people that don't know WHY drugs cause problems are against the drugs themselves. Because drugs also help people. "Drugs" only has a negative connotation when they are illegal. Cocaine is not the same as MDMA or nicotine or meth or LSD or whatever but someone who says they are anti drugs lumps them all together simply because they are illegal. Alcohol would be illegal if it was invented today.
Some drugs are very dangerous (like heroine) where others are not. Certainly not more than alcohol or tobacco. But stupid propaganda brainwashes people. Also, no one talks of the research that is not being done one some drugs like LSD that could bring benefits to a lot of people. Like people with cluster headaches. A medicine couldn't possibly be commercialized because of a stupid law created years ago for stupid reasons because someone threw themselves off a building because of it.
If you know someone that is a sex addict do you blame sex? If you know someone who's been in a car accident do you blame cars?
Now your the one who is assuming, by saying that people who are anti drugs do not know why drugs cause problems. This is of course not true, because there are a lot of people who are anti drugs, who are actually reformed drug addicts, who know first hand that drugs can screw up your life. And drugs do not have a negative connotation only when they are illegal, you need only look at the problem of alcoholism to see that statement is not correct.
Lastly the propaganda you speak of actually saves people's life, so its maybe not as stupid as you suggest.
Oh yes and your point about the research not being allowed because "someone threw themself of a building because of it" kinda says everything about your attitude about drugs. I would not say a person committing suicide was a stupid reason to ban research on a drug. In fact I would say it was another example of drugs wrecking a persons life.
Well if you can't see how that was a bad decision, then google cluster headaches and see people's stories.
Anti-drug propaganda doesn't save people's life. Information does. Letting people decide for themselves. Not being so anti-drugs that you make kids want to taste the forbidden fruit.
Anyway, this is pointless. A person committed suicide yes. But LSD also had it's benefits. Ask the hippie movement. You still haven't said if you think cars should be banned because people died because of it.
What else should be banned? It's not the things themselves but your relation to them. Buddhism isn't about control or enforcing or rules.
@ThailandTom, Stay or come back to Blighty is a decision you can only make yourself mate, one piece of advice I will give you though is that if you fly back to the UK don't mix any booze with any benzos you take for a while before you get on the plane and don't drink during the flight, this may be an urban myth but I've heard the crappy oxygen levels and pressure changes can get you really out of it while mixing those two, I wouldn't want you to do anything stupid while in flight.
If Jeff is around or someone with some a similar scientific background they could probably tell us if I'm talking rubbish, I seem to remember a musician getting into a state on a flight from mixing diazepam and alcohol.
Anyway I hope you get yourself sorted mate.
Edit: I didn't make myself to clear above the benzos will be ok but watch the hooch.
I never mentioned cars because its a ridicules and unfair comparison. And I do not think that the family of the person who commited suicide will share the attitude you have for research in this area. One life is one to many regardless of so called benefits your claiming.
And please do not use Buddhism to justify your attitude that its alright to take drugs, read the fifth precept and try to understand why Buddha said it. If you don't know why drugs such as lsd, cocain heroin etc etc should be banned then all I can think is that you must have been living in a bubble all your life.
"I should also point out again that I thought your post was irresponsible because I think it makes light of drug use and seems to be saying drugs can actually help a person in their Buddhist practice."
I'm not getting this on my end. You are correct to warn people who are not using drugs that they are dangerous. I stand by all of my comments for someone who is using them. I have confidence in them that they will work with the situation as they are able.
My therapist does skype therapy! What remains is to negotiate a price if you are interested in.
"If I carry on the way I am right now, I will be dead soon." Tom you are a beautiful person. I wish you to see clarity in your wishes. And work with letting go of drugs. It leaves a space and wonderful things or ordinary may grow once that space is clear. I have nostalgia about drinking some time but my mind is so much clearer and my depression has gotten better.
I said this to a friend who is trying to help someone give up drugs. This isn't the six stages but it is from my experience with alcohol. Let me know what you think about it if you would.
: Its good to know that I am not the only one that has to modify instructions and work with situations. I agree that not giving up is the key. I have a similar feeling about meditation. Pema has said that some sessions she drifts off the entire session! No of course I suspect she is just being compassionate haha. But I had the thought and I think lama shenpens teachings support is that mindfulness is not holding an object indefinitely such as holding the breath. Rather it is the quality of awareness able to realize that we are lost. I think your friend has that quality of awareness and he can overcome the lost in conditioning and thinking. For me I had a cycle of drinking, hangover, feeling regrettful and stupid, then cheering up again, then celebrating. Over and over. I had several days where I had clarity that I did not want that. That was a gift from God I guess. A letter stamped and addressed from my buddha nature. To some extent I had that all along but these moments were so bright that they inspired me. And kept strengthening. If you resist a craving for 30 minutes even if you eventually give in you get stronger. Next time you know you can go 30 minutes. Gangaji says not to give yourself an out and lama shenpen said not to be divided. That means you don't have one side drinking and the other side knocking yourself. When you drink you do it and with love to yourself you try to enjoy it. When you drink to much you reflect that that the hangover is not enjoyable and you sit with it, but you don't give yourself an out as experiencing that you can't do it or something. You bust yourself. In the sense of breaking up that thinking.
Propoganda is also not savvy. On my brewing forum a guy spam posted the forum with links to a site that was fire and brimstone anti alcohol. It just gave the impression that those people are annoying and insane. If I am giving out bad advice then I bare the responsibility for that. In my eyes my advice is sound and you can reread my post (up).
I never mentioned cars because its a ridicules and unfair comparison. And I do not think that the family of the person who commited suicide will share the attitude you have for research in this area. One life is one to many regardless of so called benefits your claiming.
And please do not use Buddhism to justify your attitude that its alright to take drugs, read the fifth precept and try to understand why Buddha said it. If you don't know why drugs such as lsd, cocain heroin etc etc should be banned then all I can think is that you must have been living in a bubble all your life.
With Metta
This is pointless. But I'll have you known that since the legalization of drugs here in Portugal a lot less people have consumed. Decreased in heroin, cocaine, even marijuana. A lot less related deaths too. Increase in methadone because of the people quitting heroin.
Actually Portugal is being a cause study because of that. As for the the fifth percept is a guideline. The good thing about buddhism is that it's not ENFORCING anything down people's throats. Hence it tends to produce more results. The Buddha said it because of headlessness that many drugs cause. I'm sure you don't want to ban alcohol too even though it causes headlessness.
Anyways you are obviously not open enough to want to understand what I mean, so I'll stop here.
Alcohol and benzos are synergistic and can cause the brain to stop telling your body to breath. I don't think it has anything to do with a plane other than more nerves and consuming more.
"I should also point out again that I thought your post was irresponsible because I think it makes light of drug use and seems to be saying drugs can actually help a person in their Buddhist practice."
I'm not getting this on my end. You are correct to warn people who are not using drugs that they are dangerous. I stand by all of my comments for someone who is using them. I have confidence in them that they will work with the situation as they are able.
Just reading the post I highlighted earlier, it sounded like you were saying that taking drugs can be an aid to a persons Buddhist practice and could even in theory lead to insight. I do not agree with you, if this is your view and moreover, if it is your view then again I would say its a irresponsible thing to say considering teenagers or other vulnerable people may read these posts.
If this was not your intention, which seems to be the case from your subsequent posts, then I will be happy to apologize to you.
From my first post: "I don't do drugs and they will definitely interfere to some extent." They do only interfere to a certain extent. My awareness practice was very sincere although I was an alcoholic. As I said awareness practice helps you quit, (avoid) become even more suffering through foolishness, get a better rebirth, and I will add that it adds an island of beauty in a sad life.
"Just reading the post I highlighted earlier, it sounded like you were saying that taking drugs can be an aid to a persons Buddhist practice and could even in theory lead to insight." I do not know how you understood that meaning. That is not what I intended. I also said drugs were a hindrance, but that an awareness practice was not mutually exclusive with drugs. Do you get that?
I am sorry that you have had some losses. I have found my ex on the floor 3 times not breathing and called the fire department. I know it is hard.
To teenagers, drugs will kick your ass. It is no joke. I experimented with alcohol and in college my social experiences were less than fullfilling because I was barely conscious to remember them.
i think i will have therapy in person either here in thailand or for free in england. right now everything is up in the air. I am stuck on many things, my visa runs out in May, so if I stay I need to pay like £1,000 for a visa and a thai course to get the visa as the restrictions have been heightened again. My girlfriend, do I stay or do I go, therapy, drugs, alcohol. I have been trying to understand life, I understand most of the dharma, yet I do not realise most of the dharma.
You mentioned the hangovers, I don't get hangovers. Even after my last disaster with the benzos and 2 bottles of whisky/beer, I woke up feeling normal. I never get them so the downside is not so apparent. The only drug that ever gave me a negative outcome was ketamine.
I basically have about 10 days to decide everything. Thanks though Jeffrey
And drugs do ruin lives. It all depends on mental disposition. Some people just cannot moderate. Even so, drug use in the sense of intoxication is in violation of the precept and unskillful. The thought is unskillful, the action is unskillful and the result is unskillful
Well, I figure that I have been taking all kinds of drugs for 7 nearly 8 years now to block out emotions and escape reality. Why I do not know. I am pretty sure it has something to do with my break up of my parents as I distinctly remember being so scared every time my mum went to the shop or anywhere after. Even for 5 minutes, one time I ran out of the house towards the shop as she took a little while, I was 8 then
This is pointless. But I'll have you known that since the legalization of drugs here in Portugal a lot less people have consumed. Decreased in heroin, cocaine, even marijuana. A lot less related deaths too. Increase in methadone because of the people quitting heroin.
Actually Portugal is being a cause study because of that. As for the the fifth percept is a guideline. The good thing about buddhism is that it's not ENFORCING anything down people's throats. Hence it tends to produce more results. The Buddha said it because of headlessness that many drugs cause. I'm sure you don't want to ban alcohol too even though it causes headlessness.
Anyways you are obviously not open enough to want to understand what I mean, so I'll stop here.
Ahh so your now with me that we want people to stop taking drugs ? tough you want to do this via decriminalization. Anyway, it seems that we both agree that people should not take drugs now, right ? And the fifth precept is not an order like you say, but it gives good advice, and you maybe would admit to yourself that the fifth precept is kinda telling you that, its maybe not that bright to take drugs or become drunk, because it leads to suffering.
and your right this exchange is becoming pointless
Comments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts#Pali_texts
IMO, it is ludicrous how shrooms and LSD are categorized in the same class as heroin and crack/cocaine. Even ecstasy is not as bad as people think. People who are ignorant to drugs hear the word drugs and often lump them all into one category along with the people who take them.
Alcohol and tobacco is okay according to the government though, yet it kills tens of thousands each year in the UK. Ecstasy kills 15 people a year, mostly due to mixing it with alcohol and over heating.
Going back to the OT, I think the buddha did take some kind of intoxicants before he fled his wealthy and famous lifestyle.
Lets not pretend that drugs can actually lead to any genuine insight, if you want insight it cannot be found cheaply and easily through drugs in my opinion, it needs lots of dedication, understanding commitment and practice. It cannot be found by simply popping a pill or whatever, if it could the world would be full of Buddha's right now.
Metta to all sentient beings
Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicants which lead to carelessness.
Suramerayamajja: ‘sura = fermented liquors, merya = distilled liquors, majja = intoxicating liquors’
Pamadatthana: ‘anything which destroys mindfulness’
veramani: ‘to refrain from’
sikkhāpadam: ‘the Precept’
samadiyami: ‘I undertake’
It seems to me that the 5th precept is concerning not just alcohol but any substance which interferes with mindfulness. Some people think it just applies to alcohol but a actual translation does not suggest that. If it did, then what need is there for "Pamadatthana"?
I don't do drugs and they will definitely interfere to some extent. Nonetheless if someone is going to do them, then they should not lose sight of their awareness practice entirely. Do you understand zidangus?
I do not understand you view, should we not be telling people to abandon drugs, not keep using them. And to suggest that they can aid a persons practice is irresponsible and just incorrect in my opinion. If a person wants to aid their practice I suggest that the best way to do this is through understanding the dharma and practicing the precepts along with meditation, as this is something that is long lasting and won't wear of in a few hours or days like the effects of drugs, and more importantly won't screw your life up.
Metta to all sentient beings
Therefore you must be compassionate to drug users. Of course not enabling their habit but genuine warmth and love.
For example they may not have even recognized any disadvantage to their drug use. Or they may recognize but have not the desire to change. Or they may have attempted to quit and be unable. Or they may have been succesful for awhile but couldn't maintain. Relapsed.
It is important to taylor the type of help you give to the stage they are at. If you simply say 'don't do drugs' like Nancy Reagan it is less effective.
Nothing authentic about it. Also, just look at people who use it all the time...I think they are moving away from reality rather than closer to it.
"Again if a drug can help you achieve a stable state of mind and promote the eight fold path then in theory it would be helpful. At least if you use drugs try to form a relationship with them that is conducive to your overall goals of your awareness practice."
"And note that the precepts generally discourage drugs. But each path is different and many are winding."
in my opinion sounds irresponsible and also sounds like you have no idea that drugs actually wreck life's, and they certainly do not allow a person to achieve stable states of mind that promote the eight-fold path, and the reason the precepts discourage drugs, is simply the common sense that drugs take you down the path of misery and suffering and not the path to insight.
Metta to all sentient beings
I want to make clear that I am not advocating drugs I am just practical about the matter. Nancy Reagan's policy is not effective as I explained what I have learned in pharmacy school which is backed up by studies I would imagine.
Therefore I do have an idea that drugs may wreck a persons life. I don't agree that you may not practice the eightfold path. That path is for everyone. The dharmakaya radiates to all people and not just sober people. This is how joy and love is found in samsara. Even sadam husein may eventually become enlightened if he can imagine giving a single flower to a spiritual being such as a buddha. This is stated in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. I stand by my statements.
Therefore the notion that awareness practice and drug use are mutually exclusive is fundamentally and experientially flawed.
I should also point out again that I thought your post was irresponsible because I think it makes light of drug use and seems to be saying drugs can actually help a person in their Buddhist practice. This is what I completely disagree with, hence, my comments are more directed about people who have not tried drugs before and are maybe thinking about it, if they read the views of your posts and a few others in this thread I might add, then they could quite conceivably come away thinking that they can really get something useful from drug use. Which they cannot, I repeat taking drugs wrecks life's.
Metta to all sentient beings
To know about something you have to really explore it. I don't mean taking the drugs. But most people here has tried at least one type of drug I'm sure and survived to tell the tale. And their life's aren't wrecked.
@Epicurus, yea drugs can ruin lives and I am sure most of us have tried at least one illegal substance. For me however, I tried over 20 and it has changed my life, yet I would not say ruined it, yet. If I carry on the way I am right now, I will be dead soon. 2 nights ago I took a lot of benzos and drank whisky with my gf, people say never miz benzos and alcohol as its fatal. Anyway, long story short, I woke up with little memory, blood on the floor, curtains and myself, smashed objects everywhere and my gfs belongings strewn outside. I went crazy according to people. Which is why I please ask Jeffrey to either PM me or elaborate on the steps and knowledge he gained on pharms. All the best,
Tom
Metta to all sentient beings
I'm sick of mindless anti-drug propaganda to be honest. Buddhism is about impartially evaluating things. No one ever died or ruined their lives because they smoked a joint.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi :P
Can't you get yourself back to the west Tom and get yourself some treatment? I've got a mate whose a former heroin, benzo and alcohol addict whose a drug councillor he tells me that even if you relapse after treatment don't beat yourself up about it just get back on the horse and try again. I was an amphetamine addict and ecstacy user for years and an alcoholic for many years. It took for me to go completely crazy and spend most of the next two years in psych hospitals for me to give up, then I moved away from the scene and I still occasionally fall off the wagon, last time was four months ago when I smoked a small amount of weed, I don't give myself a hard time about it just keep trying to give up, it gets easier mate. The fact that you mentioned trips at £5 a pop earlier on makes me think your a Brit, if you are you'd get treatment off the NHS, it may be a wait but you'd probably get a benzo script from the drug treatment teams particularly if your doing large amounts.
Anyway mate I hope you can get sort out your problems for most of us hardend abusers we usually don't do it until we areclose to the bottom of the manure heap that is addiction.
Tom, what you need right now is outside help. Go to a doctor. Get a friend to take you to the doctor.
And as for karma, well for that to come to fruition as you suggest then it would only do so if the right conditions were there, namely taking drugs in the first place. You don't take drugs in the first place then you cannot become an addict and the karma that you talk about cannot come to fruition.
And I am also tired of pro drug propaganda from people who have never been unfortunate enough to experience the negative impact drugs can have on a person, their family and the community that they live in. You should maybe try living in a run down neighbourhood where drug use is high, and correspondingly crime is high and see if your pro drug attitude remains.
With Metta
Metta to all sentient beings
You know you need to get clear of drugs and medication (if possible). And you need doctors to help you to do that. If your gf loves you, she'll want the best for you.
http://www.talktofrank.com/article.aspx?id=3411
Metta to all sentient beings
Can you girlfriend not get a travel visa to come to the UK to stay with you while you have treatment ?
I am sorry; I had no time to read all the posts.
However, I would like to give you one advice.
Buddhism, self groups, self counseling is fine as a next step.
Reading between the lines , I realize that your first step is DETOX.
You can’t fight demons inside you before you’ll allow your body to work beside you.
From the quick read, I suppose you are in UK. Not the easiest place to deal with your problems.
IF interested send me PM and I will use some contacts for you to get what best available near your town.
PLS, Note I am off line for a few days.
And as for karma, well for that to come to fruition as you suggest then it would only do so if the right conditions were there, namely taking drugs in the first place. You don't take drugs in the first place then you cannot become an addict and the karma that you talk about cannot come to fruition.
And I am also tired of pro drug propaganda from people who have never been unfortunate enough to experience the negative impact drugs can have on a person, their family and the community that they live in. You should maybe try living in a run down neighbourhood where drug use is high, and correspondingly crime is high and see if your pro drug attitude remains.
With Metta
Metta to all sentient beings
Why are you assuming where I live? Why are you assuming I don't know anyone who's life has been wrecked by drugs? Why are you assuming I'm pro-drugs?
I have said none of these things. Karma is not just action but the intention of the action. Cannabis, Ecstasy and LSD have all been for therapeutic reasons with good success.
My approach to drugs is IMPARTIAL. They aren't always bad. That I know. And from experience. I'm not saying people should do drugs. I'm not pro-drugs.
If you want to know why I have the opinion that I have about where you live, etc etc then read your own posts, which clearly indicate your against anti drugs, have a lack of any experience with a drug addict, or experience living on an estate that has a drug problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In fact it would be more worrying if you actually did after all have experience living on an estate with a drug problem, and did have experience with drug addicts, that you still had the views you have.
I clearly indicated I'm against anti drug people because only people that don't know WHY drugs cause problems are against the drugs themselves. Because drugs also help people. "Drugs" only has a negative connotation when they are illegal. Cocaine is not the same as MDMA or nicotine or meth or LSD or whatever but someone who says they are anti drugs lumps them all together simply because they are illegal. Alcohol would be illegal if it was invented today.
Some drugs are very dangerous (like heroine) where others are not. Certainly not more than alcohol or tobacco. But stupid propaganda brainwashes people. Also, no one talks of the research that is not being done one some drugs like LSD that could bring benefits to a lot of people. Like people with cluster headaches. A medicine couldn't possibly be commercialized because of a stupid law created years ago for stupid reasons because someone threw themselves off a building because of it.
If you know someone that is a sex addict do you blame sex? If you know someone who's been in a car accident do you blame cars?
Lastly the propaganda you speak of actually saves people's life, so its maybe not as stupid as you suggest.
Oh yes and your point about the research not being allowed because "someone threw themself of a building because of it" kinda says everything about your attitude about drugs. I would not say a person committing suicide was a stupid reason to ban research on a drug. In fact I would say it was another example of drugs wrecking a persons life.
With Metta
Anti-drug propaganda doesn't save people's life. Information does. Letting people decide for themselves. Not being so anti-drugs that you make kids want to taste the forbidden fruit.
Anyway, this is pointless. A person committed suicide yes. But LSD also had it's benefits. Ask the hippie movement. You still haven't said if you think cars should be banned because people died because of it.
What else should be banned? It's not the things themselves but your relation to them. Buddhism isn't about control or enforcing or rules.
If Jeff is around or someone with some a similar scientific background they could probably tell us if I'm talking rubbish, I seem to remember a musician getting into a state on a flight from mixing diazepam and alcohol.
Anyway I hope you get yourself sorted mate.
Edit: I didn't make myself to clear above the benzos will be ok but watch the hooch.
And I do not think that the family of the person who commited suicide will share the attitude you have for research in this area. One life is one to many regardless of so called benefits your claiming.
And please do not use Buddhism to justify your attitude that its alright to take drugs, read the fifth precept and try to understand why Buddha said it.
If you don't know why drugs such as lsd, cocain heroin etc etc should be banned then all I can think is that you must have been living in a bubble all your life.
With Metta
I'm not getting this on my end. You are correct to warn people who are not using drugs that they are dangerous. I stand by all of my comments for someone who is using them. I have confidence in them that they will work with the situation as they are able.
My therapist does skype therapy! What remains is to negotiate a price if you are interested in.
"If I carry on the way I am right now, I will be dead soon." Tom you are a beautiful person. I wish you to see clarity in your wishes. And work with letting go of drugs. It leaves a space and wonderful things or ordinary may grow once that space is clear. I have nostalgia about drinking some time but my mind is so much clearer and my depression has gotten better.
I said this to a friend who is trying to help someone give up drugs. This isn't the six stages but it is from my experience with alcohol. Let me know what you think about it if you would.
: Its good to know that I am not the only one that has to modify instructions and work with situations. I agree that not giving up is the key. I have a similar feeling about meditation. Pema has said that some sessions she drifts off the entire session! No of course I suspect she is just being compassionate haha. But I had the thought and I think lama shenpens teachings support is that mindfulness is not holding an object indefinitely such as holding the breath. Rather it is the quality of awareness able to realize that we are lost. I think your friend has that quality of awareness and he can overcome the lost in conditioning and thinking. For me I had a cycle of drinking, hangover, feeling regrettful and stupid, then cheering up again, then celebrating. Over and over. I had several days where I had clarity that I did not want that. That was a gift from God I guess. A letter stamped and addressed from my buddha nature. To some extent I had that all along but these moments were so bright that they inspired me. And kept strengthening. If you resist a craving for 30 minutes even if you eventually give in you get stronger. Next time you know you can go 30 minutes. Gangaji says not to give yourself an out and lama shenpen said not to be divided. That means you don't have one side drinking and the other side knocking yourself. When you drink you do it and with love to yourself you try to enjoy it. When you drink to much you reflect that that the hangover is not enjoyable and you sit with it, but you don't give yourself an out as experiencing that you can't do it or something. You bust yourself. In the sense of breaking up that thinking.
Actually Portugal is being a cause study because of that. As for the the fifth percept is a guideline. The good thing about buddhism is that it's not ENFORCING anything down people's throats. Hence it tends to produce more results. The Buddha said it because of headlessness that many drugs cause. I'm sure you don't want to ban alcohol too even though it causes headlessness.
Anyways you are obviously not open enough to want to understand what I mean, so I'll stop here.
If this was not your intention, which seems to be the case from your subsequent posts, then I will be happy to apologize to you.
With Metta
"Just reading the post I highlighted earlier, it sounded like you were saying that taking drugs can be an aid to a persons Buddhist practice and could even in theory lead to insight." I do not know how you understood that meaning. That is not what I intended. I also said drugs were a hindrance, but that an awareness practice was not mutually exclusive with drugs. Do you get that?
I am sorry that you have had some losses. I have found my ex on the floor 3 times not breathing and called the fire department. I know it is hard.
To teenagers, drugs will kick your ass. It is no joke. I experimented with alcohol and in college my social experiences were less than fullfilling because I was barely conscious to remember them.
You mentioned the hangovers, I don't get hangovers. Even after my last disaster with the benzos and 2 bottles of whisky/beer, I woke up feeling normal. I never get them so the downside is not so apparent. The only drug that ever gave me a negative outcome was ketamine.
I basically have about 10 days to decide everything. Thanks though Jeffrey
And the fifth precept is not an order like you say, but it gives good advice, and you maybe would admit to yourself that the fifth precept is kinda telling you that, its maybe not that bright to take drugs or become drunk, because it leads to suffering.
and your right this exchange is becoming pointless
With Metta