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Dependent origination and God
ClayTheScribe
Veteran
So I've learned that Buddhism is non-theistic meaning God is irrelevant. I personally don't believe in a God and have found this to be OK while exploring Buddhism. But here and there I read or hear a Buddhist or Buddhist teacher mention God. Then I read this in regard to dependent origination: "Causal dependence provides structure to the universe in Buddhism. Effects automatically proceed from their causes in an impersonal lawlike manner. Thus an intelligent agent, like a Creator is not necessary. In fact it is impossible for such an uncaused principle to interact with our universe which runs on causal dependence." This would suggest that God is not even possible in Buddhism in relation to dependent origination, the one thing that links all streams of Buddhism. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh mentions God in his work. If this is true, why do some Buddhists believe in God? Is the God langugage just an attempt by Buddhist masters to make the Dharma more appetizing to the Western world? Also, I've read a bit about dependent origination but am not sure I have a full understanding of it. Can someone explain it to me in simple terms or suggest where I could read such an explanation? Sometimes I feel like one has to have a PhD to have a full understanding of Buddhism since it is a science on its own haha.
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in short, the answer to your question is "yes". this "God" language is just a method by some Buddhist teachers, especially those from the 1960's, to attract Westerners to Buddhism
you can read more of this style at this link:
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Buddhadasa_Bhikkhu_ABC_of_Buddhism.pdf Sure
Dependent Origination is about how suffering originates in the human mind
There are twelve conditions:
(1) Ignorance. Not understanding craving & attachment result in suffering. Not understanding all conditioned things are subject to impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self (cannot be owned, controlled, possessed, etc)
(2) Formations. Because of ignorance, mental formations are always bubbling up from the sub conscious mind, seeking to engage with & get attached to objects of habit
(3) Consciousness. The ignorant formations generate or stir up consciousness, which will engage & absorb into objects of habit. For example, consciousness (sense awareness) is focused on this computer. But then a mental formation arises about ice-cream. So consciousness is engaged by that mental formation and consciousness will then focus on finding ice-cream.
(4) Mind-body. The ignorant formations stir up the mind-body. For example, the ignorant formation that arises is about sex. So the mind-body starts to get sexually aroused, prepared to look for & engage in an object of sexual habit
(5) Sense bases. The ignorant formations stir up the sense organs (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind) to engage with sense objects (sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches & mental objects)
(6) Sense contact. Because consciousness, body-mind and sense organs have been stirred up and aroused by ignorant formations, they make sense contact with the external world with sense objects of habit.
(7) Feeling. When consciousness, body-mind and sense organs are pre-disposed with formations, sense contact will give rise to feelings of pleasure, displeasure or neither-pleasure-nor-displeasure. For example, the ignorant formations are aroused for ice-cream and open the ice-box. If there is ice-cream in the ice-box, pleasurable feeling arises. If there is no ice-cream in the ice-box, unpleasant feeling arises.
(8) Craving. Pleasant feelings give rise to positive cravings, such as love, lust, greed, etc. Unpleasant feelings give rise to negative cravings, such as hate, anger, etc. Neither-pleasure-nor-displeasure gives rise to 'circling' cravings, such as curiosity, confusion, delusion, etc.
(9) Attachment. Due to the flavour of the feeling and the power/drive of craving, the mind becomes fixated/obsessed with the sense object. The mind can also start to identify with the object personally, as pertaining to "me".
(10) Becoming. The mind fully develops a relationship with the sense object.
(11) Birth. The mind fully identifies with the sense object. For example, the mind obtains its favourite ice-cream and starts thinking: "I love this ice-cream, this is my favourite ice-cream, I am the world's great lover of this cream".
(12) Ageing & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair. Suffering in relation to aging & death; suffering in relation to change & loss. For example, the ice-cream factory is destroyed in an earthquake and one cannot obtain one's favourite ice-cream anymore. Suffering arises.
Regards
I would recommend that you should seek out learnt teachers when you have the right conditions. Because reading books involves your own mind creating biased interpretations based on what you have read. Not to mention gets overwhelmed by difficult information like the 12 dependent origination. Teachers can point out the errors of your thinking involving these subjects. The 4 four noble truth and 12 dependent origination can be misguided by the defiled mind into leading you to the path of misunderstanding them.
I don’t think the problem (if that’s what it is) will come up in Therevada.
I met two or three zen-teachers who were also abbots in a catholic monastery.
The blend is possible because ultimately we don’t know anything.
Anyone who acknowledges his not-knowing is welcome to the party.
pick your non dualistic symbol to point to the lack of something.
When Buddhists use the word, it is rarely in the anthropomorphic sense meant in the Abrahamic religions but rather in some 'ultimate reality' or 'peak experience' or 'Truth' sense.
In regard to dependent origination, 'God' has little to no relevance.
in later times, God symbolises love & the father of all
God has never symbolised emptiness & never will
God = personality view
Buddha showed that there was no airtight metaphysical theory that would liberate you (from my understanding). Instead we have everything we need in this moment. Where is a thought? Where is it now? This question doesn't have an answer but it can sharpen awareness. Same with your searching in this thread. It is valuable in sharpening your awareness, but the clarity doesn't come from metaphysics instead it is the nature of your mind. When you ask an unclear question the nature of your mind is to perceive that it is not clear. This is what you are seeing now. A lack of clarity. Its that simple, you have everything you need in this moment.
When it's said that ignorance has no conditions, what that really means is that we're all born into ignorance. Ignorance is the Buddhist "original sin", something that is the state of a human's mind before they learn what life really is and awaken.
Seeing the mind and all phenomena for how they truly are, that I think is the goal. That is when confidence is replaced with wisdom, when the doubt has been destroyed by direct experience.
But in the east there is a vision of a mandala of protection. As we begin to shake free of the chains of grasping we discover that there are tremendous forces within our being that have nothing to do with the ego mandala. This is what Rigdzin Shikpo has called "the fire of vision, love, and creative power." This force is foreign to the ego mandala and very alien to what we think of ourselves. Can be fearful. These forces will simply consume with fire the ego mandala structure. So refuge is awakening this creative fire.
Second there is less solid boundary between the awareness inside and the 'world' without. In fact there is no boundary yet the experiences are distinct. By taking refuge we take a step into this space and we find a real alive world rather than a dead conceptual world.
Its quite frightening we go out into the mandala and the mandala guardians show us discipline. We get signals of our place in the mandala. When all we wanted was a bit of entertainment and we think its all a misunderstanding we didn't expect this. We can kick and scream and its very painful but this is not the truth. We wanted to hear and practice the teachings because they spoke to us in a deep way. Its just a backlash kinda.
The refuge is that we are not alone. All the force of the buddha and bodhisatvas is with us. All of the aspirations and heart energy. But of course from the perspective of the ego mandala it will continue to get worse and worse. We are in the process of dying after all.. By taking refuge we are opening and calling to other awakened beings who respond to us due to their own place and discipline in the mandala.
Serva Mangalam
that is the interesting thing about direct experience. there is no running away from truth.
This is my personal opinion and should not be taken as anything more.
In regards to the concept of God and dependent origination, it is stated very eloquently in "The Quantum and the Lotus" how this argument is resolved from a Buddhist perspective. To summarize, the author states that God, being the causless cause of all other conditioned phenomena, would be immutable, unchanging, permanent, and timeless. However, it is impossible for an immutable entity to engage in, affect, witness, or take part in conditioned existence, because interaction involves change on the part of both the subject and object. Also, it is irrevelant to hypothesize an immutable entity abiding "outside" the universe of conditioned phenomena, since such an entity would have no capacity for interacting with the world of conditoned phenomena. Also, to appropriate any sort personality traits to an immutable entity is pure folly because such a "thing" would have no personality because personality is a symptom of constant change and evolution via the law of dependent origination.
Once again:
This is my personal opinion and should not be taken as anything more.
Page 2, What the Buddha Taught, Walpola Sri Rahula
I think it's generally held that purifying our karma, working on our sila (morality), is the first step toward liberation. We mostly don't do that, though. Mostly, we try to understand the Buddha's Dharma and we take up a meditation practice, without changing who we are. We think the meditation alone, or the understanding, will do that. I don't think that it will. It takes great effort, which is why lay Buddhists caught up in the world aren't expected to get as far as monks who can dedicate themselves fully.