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Everything happens for a reason!?!?
zen_world
Veteran
I am a big fan of quantum mechanics. I have read theories and experiments in this area for about 6 years or more.
One of the most ground breaking experiment is performed by Thomas Young and it is called Double Slit Experiment. It is very famous and many of you may have heard of it.
One of the most interesting conclusion of this experiment is that somehow random electrons create a fixed and consistent pattern. Electrons when fired individually one by one, they demonstrate a random behavior. But when large quantites of electrons fired then they altogether show a deterministic picture. In other words, random events collectively create a deterministic pattern.'
According to scientists this is very bizzare. Indeed, it is bizzare.
Scientists asked this question to HHDL, and they asked him if Buddhism brings any explanation to this phenomena.
HHDL responded by saying that not only cause leads to effect but also the effect is impacts its cause. So it is not a one way time flow between cause and effect but instead both cause and effect equally effects themselves...
Hmmm....
So what does that mean for us?
If everything happens for a reason than there is absoulately no choice or free will and all our actions are predetermined. Maybe we don't see how but obviously there is a high order in the chaos.
Is there any reason that we should act differently then? Not really - if this is the case...Is there any reason to be more ethical, more religious, more happy? Any reason to spend more effort to become enlightened, to do meditation, to suffer or to not suffer, to be happy or to not to be happy, to watch the breath?
Maybe there is creation after all! and we are already where we supposed to be and we always will be where we supposed to be - no matter what we do...
One of the most ground breaking experiment is performed by Thomas Young and it is called Double Slit Experiment. It is very famous and many of you may have heard of it.
One of the most interesting conclusion of this experiment is that somehow random electrons create a fixed and consistent pattern. Electrons when fired individually one by one, they demonstrate a random behavior. But when large quantites of electrons fired then they altogether show a deterministic picture. In other words, random events collectively create a deterministic pattern.'
According to scientists this is very bizzare. Indeed, it is bizzare.
Scientists asked this question to HHDL, and they asked him if Buddhism brings any explanation to this phenomena.
HHDL responded by saying that not only cause leads to effect but also the effect is impacts its cause. So it is not a one way time flow between cause and effect but instead both cause and effect equally effects themselves...
Hmmm....
So what does that mean for us?
If everything happens for a reason than there is absoulately no choice or free will and all our actions are predetermined. Maybe we don't see how but obviously there is a high order in the chaos.
Is there any reason that we should act differently then? Not really - if this is the case...Is there any reason to be more ethical, more religious, more happy? Any reason to spend more effort to become enlightened, to do meditation, to suffer or to not suffer, to be happy or to not to be happy, to watch the breath?
Maybe there is creation after all! and we are already where we supposed to be and we always will be where we supposed to be - no matter what we do...
0
Comments
Welcome to the small world of imponderables.
Please read this piece on Free will, and Kamma...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality
I personally do not believe that the future is already written, if it were what exactly would be the point in it all ? we would in effect be going through the motions, our karma already planned out, our enlightenment date already decided !
Sorry I just don't believe it.
I am curious for instance, in abidhamma, where does free will mentioned?
As chittas and mental factors rise and fall based on previous conditions, there is no room for free will. So I am curious at what point of consciousness stream we use our free will?
Quantum mechanics can predict the probability distribution accurately. However it does not predict what the sequence of points will be that hit the screen.
Also there are local hidden variable theories, many world theories which attempt to explain the point your making.
I've heard people say before that this is a hindu not buddhist concept. I'd be interested in any scriptures that reinforce this view. ddhist concept. I'd be interested in any scriptures that reinforce this view.
that is after that point when one is with mindfulness one uses one's free will
Could you clarify that statement please.
What has free will and makes choices? Consciousness?
Have you ever looked to see if you can find a conscious thinker that thinks thoughts, or do thoughts arise from the subconscious?
If so, what consciously controls or chooses what the subconscious does?
That is the internal process. Now the external, lets say gossip. It is so easy and casual to fall into after all. So you pass on information and you feel rather important, consider it harmless after all, and figure you are making connections to people by talking. Then you learn about right speech and you realize even if that person never hears what you said about them you are still creating something with the gossip. So the next time you hear something you do not pass it on. Then you go so far as to say 'I don't think anyone knows the whole story,...' or something that maybe stops it for other people. You KNOW that you could make the other choice and still go back and gossip, be welcomed with open arms in fact. But you don't. The person who is the subject never knows yet the next week in the hall they stop and talk to you. Maybe you find a mutual interest. Maybe you meet someone important through them. Whatever choice you make you will not know what would have happened in the other choice, but you can feel at the moment of challenge that you do have the choice. We do it both ways all the time.
Hope that helps
We are the same as a bug. Do we say that a bug has free will, or do we say that everything it does is based on circumstances and conditions of its past and the present moment? We're more complex and we think too much, easily fooling ourselves, but our lives are as conditioned as that bug... or a tree. How we think of ourselves is our very problem; we create an independent agent (self/soul) where there is only awareness of conditioned phenomena arising and passing. We can't change reality, but we can change our perspective, and that begins by walking the Noble Eightfold Path.
BTW we have no evidence that random things are random. "Random" just means that we don't understand how the underlying mechanics work. Everything we experience has its reasons, and we only apply "random" where we are impotent to test for or explain how to predict anything. Most of life for us is in this realm of the unknown.
Sorry if that's confusing, but pretty much it's summed into, freewill or not, if one does a positive thing, then it has positive outcomes, so whether you believe it's fate or not, it's still worth doing...
Just my opinion though, which I came to myself after reading similar theories and ideas on fate and freewill, ultimately it doesn't impact the way I will act.
There’s no question about it, that in our minds we appear to be making our own decisions. So that’s what we have to do; we have to make our own decisions. That the outcome of the process is probably “determined” in some way doesn’t change a thing.
The weather today in ten years (will it be a rainy or a sunny day) is determined; no free will is involved in it. But it is such a complex thing that the outcome is random to us.
It’s roughly the same for us; I suppose.
We make our decision within the framework of let’s say the “climate”; we are predictable but only up to a point. The “weather” is always a surprise.
Everything proceeds from a prior cause/s. Even if one thinks there is a self making decisions, one never really have complete free will.
Just ask the members of Hitler Youth or the child soldiers of the Khmer Rouge etc.
I think people take HHDL words with too much weight. He's said multiple times in his own books. He is not a god, as some see him, but just a simple monk. He knows well that he is far from infallible.
Even at the quantum level there's disputes about what's random and what isn't and the same school of thought appears; things only appear random, because we don't understand the variables. If there is absolutely no choice or free will, then your second paragraph doesn't count, since you won't be able to 'act differently', or to not care.
Personally, I think this is a 'Middle Way' type of thing and things are not completely predetermined, nor are they random and that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
And secondly, let's say significant things do happen for a reason. That doesn't necessarily take away our options on how we react.
Just my opinion but I think it not a very good way of coming to a conclusion on this. :-/
Rather, I would say "everything happens because of reasons" is a more correct perspective, which makes conditions the master of all phenomena rather than anything being pre-determined or planned out.
Nothing is pre-determined, only determined. The next moment is determined by this one, and this moment was determined by the one before, going back in a causally related stream that is at once both selfless and interrelated.
consciousness is the mind with delusion if 'we' practise Buddha's Teaching 'we' can see there is no thinker who thinks
instead
'we' can see when there is a contact through one of the six internal sense organs with the relevant external sense organ with our deluded mind we begin to think no matter how hard we try we can not consciously control
if there is no mindfulness with the knowledge of Four Noble Truth (not that the knowledge gained through reading or listening but experiencing) then we have the control
As to free will, I think @Cloud said it well with determined doesn't mean pre-determined. Look up Determinism vs. Fatalism for more about the difference.
My own take is that awareness is the trump card in our deterministic behavior. We aren't simply automatons reacting to internal and external stimuli. Our mind has the amazing quality of awareness, we have the ability to know what's going on. Since we can be more or less aware of what is happening that constantly adds information to the list of determining factors guiding our behavior. I don't know if that translates into free will per se but I think it means we're more than meat robots.
"Maybe there is creation after all! and we are already where we supposed to be and we always will be where we supposed to be - no matter what we do..."
I think you are correct, there is a creation. But at the same time the heart of each person can change, can become more kind, more loving, and can help others, etc. and why not?
I'm kind of an amalgamation of buddhism, hinduism, taoism and me-ism.
Unless i'm misreading something, this seems to be a contradiction.
You accept that there's no thinker behind thoughts. You accept that consciousness has no ability to control or choose. You accept that the subconscious mind receives stimuli and responds to it. Yet you still claim that "you" choose?
So are you saying that "you" are the subconscious mind?
Are you saying that cause and effect is choice?
My point is that the brain responds and thoughts are only an echo of that process.
The mind is a wonderous thing, and it will always find a way to protect itself(from ourselves?).
"does the mind rule the body, or does the body rule the mind, I dunno"--the smiths
if there is a cause there is an effect
just trying does not help
'we' try to do something good because 'we' are conditioned to do that way
'we' try not to do something bad because 'we' are conditioned to do that way According to Buddha's Teachingany one of internal six sense bases contact with the relevant external base the relevant consciousness (the deluded mind) arises for worldling
(for ex: ear + sound + ear consciousness)
that is the Cause
feeling and perception are the Effect of that Cause
because 'we' are deluded by the mind (consciousness) we Think feeling and perception are beautiful, pleasurable, permanent and can manipulate to 'our' own liking
so we react accordingly