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To suffer or not to suffer, that is the question (USA Today article)

Comments

  • Wow thank you ...if I had read this a year ago, i would have been appalled. But this man, is this considered a good quality of life?

  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited January 2012
    I totally agree with the guys decision. Suicide for me can be split into two groups, one where people are depressed for whatever reason/reasons, or because they have a physical medical condition that really lowers their quality of life/terminal illness. The second group should be allowed the right to choose if they can live or die IMO because there is no getting away from that condition, whereas depression from a divorce or financial matters etc can be resolved with the right help and care. I forget where, but there is a country where euthinasia is legal. He could always go there if he wanted to instead of trying to go through the courts in the UK.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    I don't see much to discuss. People should have the right to end their own life if they want to, especially when they're suffering from a painful, debilitating, and/or incurable disease. Forcing them to stay alive is tantamount to torture, in my opinion.
  • @thailandtom what is imo, or imho?

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    @thailandtom what is imo, or imho?

    In my opinion/In my honest opinion
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited January 2012
    What Jason said :p But yes, it is a kind of torture. I am waiting on my blood test results (which have been pushed back to the 31st :angry: ) If I ended up having terminal cancer I know what I would do.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    @thailandtom what is imo, or imho?

    occasionally, 'in my humble opinion'....

  • I don't see much to discuss. People should have the right to end their own life if they want to, especially when they're suffering from a painful, debilitating, and/or incurable disease. Forcing them to stay alive is tantamount to torture, in my opinion.
    @Jason what's at issue is that he cannot end his own life without assistance, and assisted suicide is illegal in the UK.

    That is what he is arguing. It would take an act of Parliament to change that, and they do not want to set a precedent in other arenas, such as (lesser) quality of care for the elderly. Also, I agree that having no quality of life with a vibrant brain is horrific.

    @ThailandTom, it's mentioned in the article, The Netherlands (ever progressive) has legal euthanasia.

    I decided a long time ago that I have a shelf life (well, yes, we ALL do), and if I am terminally or chronically ill, and able to end my life I shall.

    I reserve that right, legal or not, it's my body,my brain, and my heart.
  • Does this or does this not go against the precept to not kill or take life?
    If I decide to euthanize a pet is this considered killing?
    Sorry if this is too much of a tangent but I thought of this yesterday and have been struggling with it.
  • I haven't read the article, but I recall a member we had a year ago, who said that due to multiple serious health issues, her life was constant pain, and other complications. She said she often thought about suicide, but that instead, she tried to find meaning in life, and she hung on for the sake of her kids. In spite of her extremely trying conditions, she tried to make a contribution to the community in whatever way she could, and used this as motivation to keep going.

    What a tough call. But Buddhism helped give her some strength.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    Still don't see the issue. If a family member or a doctor is willing to assist, great. It's not like places that legalize this kind of thing (e.g., Oregon) have rapidly deteriorating elderly care, either.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    My political view tells me that people should be allowed to make that kind of decision for themselves. I think assisted suicide should be legal.

    My Buddhist view tells me that suicide is a negative karmic act and that even in 'locked in syndrome' one can use still use the mind to reduce suffering and make progress on the path to enlightenment. Even in cases of terminal illness with much pain positive habits and karma can be developed as well as the pain removing past negative karma. If I was in that situation though I don't know that I would tough it out and wouldn't end my life. I don't want to seem to be passing judgement on someone who wants to end the pain, not everyone shares my views and they should be free to make whatever decision they feel is best for them.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Person: I agree with your first paragraph. I don't know -- yet -- about your second paragraph. I'm getting old...who knows what confronts me.
  • Does this or does this not go against the precept to not kill or take life?
    If I decide to euthanize a pet is this considered killing?
    Sorry if this is too much of a tangent but I thought of this yesterday and have been struggling with it.
    To me the 4NT come into play here, sure we can interpret it as we see fit, depending on what you qualify suffering as. That, to me, seems to be suffering, not only for him, but for the people who have to see him like that, and care for his needs. It's the fact that his quality of life has absolutely zero chance of improving.

    Euthanasia of a pet is even harder, since they cannot speak for themselves. No matter how sick a pet is, and you know that you can end their suffering there is ALWAYS that doubt there, that you are doing divine intervention, because "what if___________". I have been there, thankfully the day before I was to take a beloved pet to be put down, he passed at home, it avoided that scenario. This time.

    At least a cognizant human being, especially one who is in their right mind,relatively speaking can say "No, I do not want this life". We have no choice about coming into the world, why shouldn't we have the choice to leave as we choose, moreso under those circumstances?

    I also agree that "fixable" things like situational depression, should not be an instant where death is warranted.

  • ZeroZero Veteran
    This is such a controversial topic... Overall, I'm of the opinion that life is yours to do with as you choose...

    That said, legislating for lawful killing is challenging - it opens the floodgates to various unsatisfactory legal positions - for example - how do you define informed consent in such circumstances - what constitutes 'assistance' - what if the person changes their mind half way through - which conditions would attract the exemption - say youre depressed, what then? what if there is no next of kin and an institution has to make the decision - It is a legal minefield to draft, interpret and enforce... inevitably it will have to be tested through the courts and the issue is so controversial that the court service does not wish for the matter to play out with the judiciary - there's also the issue of forum shopping.

    The present English legal system goes back to around 1066 so is very conservative - it is common practice to use what is known as a 'legal fiction' - this is where something that everyone knows is incorrect is taken as correct for a limited purpose - in this way, many issues are undecided but things happen anyway.

    The inclination of legal policy in this area is to leave the matter to the Criminal Prosecution Service (CPS) - as the article itself points out, no cases have been brought recently against people who have assisted in suicide - this is very much a policy decision by the CPS and considered on a case by case basis.

    I listened to an interview with a mother who assisted her daughter to die - it was a harrowing tale of loss - the issue was investigated fully and no charge was brought - in effect there is an unofficial system for dealing with these genuine cases - also the referral to the CPS starts with a doctor's report and the medical profession itself has its own guidelines on reporting procedure - basically, on terminally ill patients, a postmortem is not routinely conducted so if no 'issue' is articulated what happens on paper is that a terminally ill man simply passes away...

    Also, it is no illegal (in certain circumstances) to withdraw nutrition (with opiate medication to ease suffering) - it is not legal to end life with a lethal injection however and that is what is being campaigned for - a legal mechanism to sanction express action to end life prematurely.

    @Hubris - 'quest' is correct - some people in this situation seek to highlight the issue with a personal campaign - this is encouraged by the organisations that promote right to die and I suppose without this the debate would not be encouraged...

    In essence, its the chap's choice - he will be able to do it if he wishes... but I do see the danger of the legal system moving to acknowledge lawful killing especially as in time the position will shift again - so what with all these old people who live to be 150 but spend 50 years basically incapacitated draining young peoples' resources...

    Consider that when surveilance legislation was introduced there was a huge amount of opposition and the counterposition was that CCTV footage would be kept for a certain period and then destroyed / if you do not have a criminal record then CCTV images of you should be blotted out / CCTV would be employed for certain public areas and then only where there was a threshold of criminal activity that would be reduced or hampered by surveillance / cameras had limited pixalation and zoom so they would be limited to their area...

    thats how it started - now, memory is cheap and footage is kept for far longer (with the advent of nanotechnology and crystal drives, memory issues will be a thing of the past) / no blotting out under any circumstances, you can be tracked and followed for a mere 'suspicion' (undefined and subjective) / at the request of the public CCTV was extended to cover all areas including mixed use commercial and residential and lately sole residential (on request from the residents) / I was told by a CCTV operator that for a laugh they would zoom in and catch people's pins at cash machines!! / face recognition tech means that now they just leave the cameras running and a computer analyses matches and builds films from various sources to show an individual's movements throughout camera zones... It is so far from what was inevisaged as the final surveillance system.

    I think on balance best to keep the floodgates shut and deal with each case on a case by case basis - the gravity of loss of life I think demands a prima facie universal prohibition.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    It's not really that complicated, in my opinion. In the case of things like terminal illnesses, locked-in-syndrome, etc., require someone who desires to end their life to have (1) a medical diagnose, (2) a confirmed request with at least two witnesses, one of whom can't be related to the patient, a beneficiary, in charge of their care or affiliated in any way with their healthcare provider, and (3) a psych-eval. Allow doctors who are willing to prescribe a lethal dose of drugs that will simply put the patient to sleep and not wake up do so without fear of a life-sentence and/or the loss their medical license; and if the person is unable to physically administer the medication themselves, allow a willing doctor or family member to do it without fear of prosecution. Finally, make sure that the person's decision to end their life in this way and under these circumstances doesn't have an effect on their insurance policies.
  • Will you bring negative karma on yourself for helping someone die? How about letting them suffer with no end in sight? I'm sure, at some point, that decision becomes loaded with bad karma.

    I don't believe those who assist the terminally ill are black-and-white doing something wrong. If the person who dies did in fact (and it can be rpoven - video recording for example) want to die, then for me personally, no issue.

    The issue (legally) of course is knowing for sure what the person wants. It makes it hard in cases of sudden PVS or other such illnesses/injuries.

    This is one reason it's good to have a living will. Make your wishes known. For example, my grandmother has a DNR in her living will.

    If someone I loved (spouse, parent, sibling) were terminally ill and in an unending amount of pain, I hope I would have the guts to help if they asked. Needless suffering is unkind.
  • I have heard, on many an occasions (having worked in the medical field on and off through the years) that even though it's not spoken about here in the US, that doctors widely administer lethal doses of opiates in the final days/hours of a terminal patient's life. Mainly cancer patients. Just enough to stop things.

    Can I prove it? No. However I have heard it on more than one occasion.

    @Mountains, have you ever heard anything along those lines?

    I firmly believe in DNRs and Living Wills in case I cannot decide on my own, and if I can decide, I most certainly will. One way or another death is inevitable, suffering need not be.

    This is not to say I am suicidal or hate life, it just means that in case of catastrophic illness I shall leave on my terms, not my family's or doctors who may keep me as a wasted shell for their own purposes. Maybe that makes me a control freak, but I consider it being a realist.
  • I think that we should all be grateful for having a practice that would allow us to thrive even being locked in, although, of course, I am not speaking from experience. But I think the same issues apply. When my buddy died of cancer, he was pretty locked in and at first he spiralled down, but then one day he saw how he was grasping onto thoughts and realised that he could let go. He began meditating for hours a day and in the end he was the happiest person in the room. But he also took drugs at the end to deal with the pain, as it locks up the body.
  • "Locked-up" in this case means totally paralyzed. He can do virtually nothing for himself but move his eyes. Not at all the same as spiralling mentally with movement ability. He is a sharp mind trapped in a totally helpless body. That makes prison look like paradise.

    Practice might be of benefit to a man such as this, however someone that desperate to leave earth has had some time to think about it, and decided it's worth fighting to leave. Meditation for him, if he decided to "live", might be considered wasted time, since the rest of his "living" would require him to be present, and back in the reality that is his paralysis. I do not see any worth there from his POV either.

    Could he "transcend" ? Maybe, Stephen Hawking has, and provided the world with his brilliance, maybe this man hasn't that to offer.
  • Have you read The Diving Bell and the Butterfly, which is a completely different story? If you have lived a life without any practice and you have no history of the dharma, but rather have lived in a world of so many things, corporate performativity, and conquest as in certain sports, like rugby, it is understandable that you might have nothing to live for - but that is ignorance. The practice is about living in any condition - we don't need to be paralysed, and that is why so I am grateful. This seems very much like kamma - but I don't want to discuss that. We cannot expect him to understand other ways of being now - is it compassionate to kill him? I don't know - maybe he would be reborn as fish in a tank.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    It's not really that complicated, in my opinion. In the case of things like terminal illnesses, locked-in-syndrome, etc., require someone who desires to end their life to have (1) a medical diagnose, (2) a confirmed request with at least two witnesses, one of whom can't be related to the patient, a beneficiary, in charge of their care or affiliated in any way with their healthcare provider, and (3) a psych-eval. Allow doctors who are willing to prescribe a lethal dose of drugs that will simply put the patient to sleep and not wake up do so without fear of a life-sentence and/or the loss their medical license; and if the person is unable to physically administer the medication themselves, allow a willing doctor or family member to do it without fear of prosecution.
    Finally, make sure that the person's decision to end their life in this way and under these circumstances doesn't have an effect on their insurance policies.
    There are some issues here - I accept that the procedure is straightforward but the implications are not - going by your numbering:

    1) Medical diagnosis - this varies greatly between doctors - so much that second opinions are common place - the test of a diagnosis is a negative one - i.e. whether any other reasonable doctor would diagnose the same - given the incredible ambiguity in medicine and doctor commeradery this test is rarely satisfied and only really challenged through litigation (which a dead person would not do), allowing a doctor to diagnose death or a condition that warrants death is dangerous in itself - eventually this will promote compliant doctors who are willing to sign off - very much like the crisis facing the personal injury industry - there is a wider public interest also and as such this will lead to a serious level of lenghty and costly state funded litigation.

    2) Witnesses - this will be abused - you will also create a professional witness which will take away the intended effect of the legilation.

    3) Psych-eval - these are extremely subjective - though psychology is badged with credibility, if you consider the underlying science, it is juvenile at best - we are nowhere near understanding how the brain works let alone its higher functions - diagnosis and treatment is very hit and miss and results are always subjective so again evaluating is near on impossible.

    The debate is ignited in the public arena by genuine cases which is sad and I am sympathetic to their plight - that said, the matter has been extensively debated in parliament and reported in Hansard and there are and have been various working commitees looking at the issue - not to mention the legal commentary on the topic... despite this, the legal opinion is that the law should remain as it is as it best serves the balance of preserving life as against the extreme minority cases - unfortunately, public debate tends to focus on emotions rather than tangible facts and data.
  • According to scripture, ending own life prematurely or helping other to end life prematurely is assisting themselves to create more severe suffering than the present torment they are undergoing. may they be well, be safe and be liberating.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    It's not really that complicated, in my opinion. In the case of things like terminal illnesses, locked-in-syndrome, etc., require someone who desires to end their life to have (1) a medical diagnose, (2) a confirmed request with at least two witnesses, one of whom can't be related to the patient, a beneficiary, in charge of their care or affiliated in any way with their healthcare provider, and (3) a psych-eval. Allow doctors who are willing to prescribe a lethal dose of drugs that will simply put the patient to sleep and not wake up do so without fear of a life-sentence and/or the loss their medical license; and if the person is unable to physically administer the medication themselves, allow a willing doctor or family member to do it without fear of prosecution.
    Finally, make sure that the person's decision to end their life in this way and under these circumstances doesn't have an effect on their insurance policies.
    There are some issues here - I accept that the procedure is straightforward but the implications are not - going by your numbering:

    1) Medical diagnosis - this varies greatly between doctors - so much that second opinions are common place - the test of a diagnosis is a negative one - i.e. whether any other reasonable doctor would diagnose the same - given the incredible ambiguity in medicine and doctor commeradery this test is rarely satisfied and only really challenged through litigation (which a dead person would not do), allowing a doctor to diagnose death or a condition that warrants death is dangerous in itself - eventually this will promote compliant doctors who are willing to sign off - very much like the crisis facing the personal injury industry - there is a wider public interest also and as such this will lead to a serious level of lenghty and costly state funded litigation.

    2) Witnesses - this will be abused - you will also create a professional witness which will take away the intended effect of the legilation.

    3) Psych-eval - these are extremely subjective - though psychology is badged with credibility, if you consider the underlying science, it is juvenile at best - we are nowhere near understanding how the brain works let alone its higher functions - diagnosis and treatment is very hit and miss and results are always subjective so again evaluating is near on impossible.

    The debate is ignited in the public arena by genuine cases which is sad and I am sympathetic to their plight - that said, the matter has been extensively debated in parliament and reported in Hansard and there are and have been various working commitees looking at the issue - not to mention the legal commentary on the topic... despite this, the legal opinion is that the law should remain as it is as it best serves the balance of preserving life as against the extreme minority cases - unfortunately, public debate tends to focus on emotions rather than tangible facts and data.
    Those are the general criteria under Oregon's Death with Dignity Act (except with the additional requirement that the patient have six months or less to live), and there hasn't been any problems in the thirteen years since it's passage. It's been quite successful, actually, and I don't share your misgivings as (1) most terminal illnesses (which are mostly cancers in Oregon's case) are pretty straightforward to diagnose, and the diagnoses is confirmed by another doctor; (2) witnesses are generally close friends, not 'professionals'; and (3) psych-evals, which aren't a requirement in Oregon unless there's suspicion by one of the doctors that the patient isn't mentally competent or their decision is motivated by depression or coercion, are good enough to rules these out, in my opinion.
  • At what point does the physical or mental suffering, or deteriorating "quality of life" justify ending one's life, or even helping someone to end it?

    I don't know, and I have no right passing judgement on someone who is in that situation. If I or my wife end up facing that dilemma, then I'll have my answer when I make the decision. If out of love, I have to help my wife end a life with nothing but suffering in her future, then I'd accept whatever bad karma this act of compassion brings as my final gift to her. I know she'd do the same for me.

    But as I said, some situations you just have to deal with when or if they arrive, as best you can.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    At what point does the physical or mental suffering, or deteriorating "quality of life" justify ending one's life, or even helping someone to end it?

    I don't know, and I have no right passing judgement on someone who is in that situation. If I or my wife end up facing that dilemma, then I'll have my answer when I make the decision. If out of love, I have to help my wife end a life with nothing but suffering in her future, then I'd accept whatever bad karma this act of compassion brings as my final gift to her. I know she'd do the same for me.

    But as I said, some situations you just have to deal with when or if they arrive, as best you can.
    I see what you're saying, but this is one of those issues like I am with abortion.

    From a spiritual perspective, I think abortion is wrong, except in certain situations.
    But as a citizen, I accept a woman's right to choose.

    I think this is one of the issues in suicide as well. I can think it is wrong (not saying that's what I actually think), but not think that it should be illegal.

  • I have heard, on many an occasions (having worked in the medical field on and off through the years) that even though it's not spoken about here in the US, that doctors widely administer lethal doses of opiates in the final days/hours of a terminal patient's life. Mainly cancer patients. Just enough to stop things.

    Can I prove it? No. However I have heard it on more than one occasion.

    @Mountains, have you ever heard anything along those lines?
    I've heard of it happening in states where assisted suicide isn't legal. I've never seen it myself, but then I don't deal with hospice patients, which is I'd imagine where most of that happens.

    I *have* seen and participated in essentially the same thing whereby supportive care is withdrawn at the request of the patient and/or family (which is completely legal and ethical in all states in the US). Such cases usually involve patients on ventilators, which are turned off, and withdrawal of things like IV antibiotics, drugs to support blood pressure, etc. Aside from family members making a scene, it's usually very peaceful and quiet for the patient. The discussion between physicians, patients, and their loved ones around this type of end of life decision is what the right deftly twisted into "death panels" to support their case against health care reform. And people bought it lock, stock, & barrel.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    @Jason – thanks for highlighting that – there is little comment on comparative system in the UK reports and I was not aware of the Oregan system – that said, I’ve had at best a cursory interest in the subject so I’m not greatly informed beyond the (limited) literature I’ve considered – the annual reports are encouraging and the system appears on the face of it to work for those who choose it – there’s 2 sides to every story I guess – check out this link for the other side http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/oregon/

    I don’t know enough to reasonably assess whether the risk of lack of treatment outweighs the right to die with dignity… the debate both sides has valid points… I’m beginning to think that perhaps an official system is better than an unofficial one as at least you have relative transparency and data collected – concerned that treatment / funding criteria mean that more speculative treatment is not funded but I guess that can happen irrespective of whether there is an assisted suicide regime.

    Certainly made me reconsider the issue.
  • I will never agree that someone has the right to tell me I MUST live when I am so very sick. Really, I would be questioning their motives, because the whole business of death is more about the living and not the dead.

    Doctors as much as, if not more than anyone else have huge egos, and losing patients, no matter their condition is a blow to that. Family members love, and therefore get attached, and will refuse to "let go" of someone, despite the suffering they see before them. I have come to a place in life where I do not understand that. How do you make someone else's life about you??

    What I mean about "the business of death...the funerary industry. It's a business, and like most things, is about making money. The elaborate things we put a corpse through, just for the living, who, for the most part do not accept death, even though every single on of us knows we will die at some point.

    Makes you wonder, if more people took a pragmatic approach to death how would things be? Facing things realistically, and then engaging in the letting go process. Less grief, less suffering, and reconciliation with ones own mortality.

    Letting go does not mean forgetting memories, and loving what was.

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