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Collective Karma
ClayTheScribe
Veteran
Is there such a thing as collective karma or is it always personal? Like if a society or a nation's government acts in a certain way, does the whole nation reap what was sown? I'm still trying to wrap my head around karma and know I probably never will in this lifetime.
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I guess first it depends on what you think karma is -- a process that exists, or something that exists only in your own mind.
My personal view is that there can be "national karma", for example.
I know what you mean when you say, "I'm still trying to wrap my head around karma and know I probably never will in this lifetime."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Buddhism#Is_there_collective_or_national_karma.3F
All is a projection of an individuals karma.
I'll write more on this later after i sleep. But hopefully someone answers this more directly and in detail.
What's a nation?
A nation is just a very big group of people.
Can a very big group of people be united through time and space by their karmic issues and be born into circumstances reflecting those karmic issues?
Of course.
别业妄见。众生同分妄见。-
汝今谛听。吾今为汝分别开示。亦令将来。诸有漏者。获菩提果。阿难。一切众生。轮回世间。由二颠倒分别见妄。当处发生。当业轮转。云何二见。一者。众生别业妄见。二者。众生同分妄见。云何名为别业妄见。阿难。如世间人。目有赤眚。夜见灯光。别有圆影。五色重叠。于意云何。此夜灯明所现圆光。为是灯色。为当见色。阿难。此若灯色。则非眚人何不同见。而此圆影。惟眚之观。若是见色。见已成色。则彼眚人见圆影者。名为何等。复次。阿难。若此圆影离灯别有。则合傍观屏帐几筵。有圆影出。离见别有。应非眼瞩。云何眚人目见圆影。是故。当知色实在灯。见病为影。影见俱眚。见眚非病。终不应言是灯是见。于是中有非灯非见。如第二月。非体非影。何以故。第二之观。捏所成故。诸有智者。不应说言。此捏根元。是形非形。离见非见。此亦如是。目眚所成。今欲名谁是灯是见。何况分别非灯非见。云何名为同分妄见。阿难。此阎浮提。除大海水。中间平陆。有三千洲。正中大洲。东西括量。大国凡有二千三百。其余小洲在诸海中。其间或有三两百国。或一或二。至于三十四十五十。阿难。若复此中。有一小洲。只有两国。惟一国人。同感恶缘。则彼小洲。当土众生。睹诸一切不祥境界。或见二日。或见两月。其中乃至晕蚀佩玦。彗孛飞流。负耳虹霓。种种恶相。但此国见。彼国众生。本所不见。亦复不闻。阿难。吾今为汝。以此二事。进退合明。阿难。如彼众生。别业妄见。瞩灯光中所现圆影。虽现似境。终彼见者。目眚所成。眚即见劳。非色所造。然见眚者。终无见咎。例汝今日。以目观见山河国土。及诸众生。皆是无始见病所成。见与见缘。似现前境。元我觉明见所缘眚。觉见即眚。本觉明心。觉缘非眚。觉所觉眚。觉非眚中。此实见见。云何复名觉闻知见。是故。汝今见我及汝。并诸世间十类众生。皆即见眚。非见眚者。彼见真精。性非眚者。故不名见。阿难。如彼众生同分妄见。例彼妄见别业一人。一病目人。同彼一国。彼见圆影。眚妄所生。此众同分所现不祥。同见业中。瘴恶所起。俱是无始见妄所生。例阎浮提。三千洲中。兼四大海。娑婆世界。并洎十方。诸有漏国。及诸众生。同是觉明无漏妙心。见闻觉知虚妄病缘。和合妄生。和合妄死。若能远离诸和合缘。及不和合。则复灭除诸生死因。圆满菩提。不生灭性。清净本心。本觉常住。阿难。汝虽先悟本觉妙明。性非因缘。非自然性。而犹未明如是觉元。非和合生。及不和合。阿难。吾今复以前尘问汝。汝今犹以。一切世间。妄想和合。诸因缘性。而自疑惑。证菩提心和合起者。则汝今者妙净见精。为与明和。为与暗和。为与通和。为与塞和。若明和者。且汝观明。当明现前。何处杂见。见相可辨。杂何形像。若非见者。云何见明。若即见者。云何见见。必见圆满。何处和明。若明圆满。不合见和。见必异明。杂则失彼性明名字。杂失明性。和明非义。彼暗与通。及诸群塞。亦复如是。复次。阿难。又汝今者妙净见精。为与明合。为与暗合。为与通合。为与塞合。若明合者。至于暗时。明相已灭。此见即不与诸暗合。云何见暗。若见暗时。不与暗合。与明合者。应非见明。既不见明。云何明合。了明非暗。彼暗与通。及诸群塞。亦复如是。
Ananda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, the Thus Come One has often spoken of the mixture and union of causes and conditions, saying that the transformations of everything in the world are created from the mixing and uniting of the four elements.
"Why does the Thus Come One reject causes and conditions and spontaneity as well? I do not know how to understand your meaning now.
"Please be so compassionate as to instruct us living beings in the final meaning of the Middle Way in the Dharmas which are not idle theories."
The World Honored One then told Ananda, "You have renounced the Small Vehicle Dharmas of the Sound-hearers and those enlightened to conditions and have resolved to diligently seek unsurpassed Bodhi. Because of that, I will now explain the foremost truth to you.
"Why do you still bind yourself up in the idle theories and false thoughts current among people of the world?
"Although you are very learned, you are like someone who can discuss medicines but cannot distinguish a real medicine when it is placed before you. The Thus Come One says that you are truly pitiful.
"Listen attentively now as I explain this point in detail for you and also for those of the future who cultivate the great vehicle, so that you all can penetrate to the real appearance."
Ananda was silent and awaited the Buddha s holy instruction.
"Ananda, according to what you said, the mixing and uniting of the four elements create the myriad transformations if everything in the world.
"Ananda, if the nature of those elements does not mix and unite in substance, then they cannot combine with other elements, just as empty space cannot combine with forms.
"Assuming that they do mix and unite, they are then only in a process of transformation in which they depend on one another for existence from beginning to end. In the course of transformation they are produced and extinguished being born and then dying, dying and then being born, in birth after birth, in death after death, the way a torch spun in a circle forms an unbroken wheel of flame.
"Ananda, the process is like water becoming ice and ice becoming water again.
"Consider the nature of earth: its coarse particles make up the great earth. Its fine particles make up motes of dust, down to and including motes of dust bordering upon emptiness.
"If one divides those fine motes of dust, their appearance is at the boundaries of form. Then divide those into seven parts.
"Aanada, if this mote of dust bordering upon emptiness is divided and becomes emptiness, it should be that emptiness can give rise to form.
"Just now you asked if mixing and uniting doesn t bring about the transformations of everything in the world.
"You should carefully consider how much emptiness mixes and unites to make a single mote of dust bordering upon emptiness, since it makes no sense to say that dust bordering on emptiness is composed of dust bordering on emptiness.
"Moreover, since motes of dust bordering upon emptiness can be reduced to emptiness, of how many motes of such form as this must emptiness be composed?
"When these motes of form mass together, a mass of form does not make emptiness; when emptiness is massed together, a mass of emptiness does not make form. Besides, although form can be divided, how can emptiness be massed together?
"You simply do not know that in the treasury of the Thus Come One the nature of form is true emptiness, and the nature of emptiness is true form. Pure at its origin, it pervades the Dharma realm. It accords with living beings minds, in response to their capacity to know.
"It is experienced to whatever extent is dictated by the law of Karma. Ignorant of this fact, people in the world are so deluded as to assign its origin to causes and conditions or to spontaneity. These mistakes, which arise from the discriminations and reasoning processes of the conscious mind, are nothing but the play of empty words which have no real meaning.
"Ananda, fire, which has no nature of its own, depends upon various causes and conditions for its existence. Consider a family in the city that has not yet eaten. When they wish to prepare food, they hold up a speculum to the sun, seeking fire.
"Ananda, let us look into your suggestion that the fire comes forth from mixing and uniting. By way of example, you and I and the twelve hundred and fifty Bhikshus unite together to form a community. However, a careful analysis of the community reveals that every member composing it has his own body, birthplace, clan, and name. For instance, Shariputra is a Brahman; Uruvilva is of the Kashyapa clan, and you, Ananda, come from the Gautama family.
"Ananda, suppose fire existed because of mixing and uniting. When the hand holds up the speculum to the sun to seek fire, does the fire come out of the speculum? Does it come out of moxa tinder? Or does it come from the sun?
"Suppose, Ananda, that it came from the sun. Not only would it burn the moxa tinder in your hand, but as it came across the groves of trees, it should burn them up as well.
"Suppose that it came from the speculum. Since it came out from within the speculum to ignite the moxa tinder, why doesn t the speculum melt? Yet your hand that holds it feels no heat; how, then, could the speculum melt?
"Suppose that the fire came from the moxa tinder. Then why is fire generated only when the bright mirror comes into contact with the dazzling light?
"Furthermore, on closer examination you will find the speculum held in hands, the sun high up in the sky, and moxa grown from the ground. Where does the fire come from? How can it travel some distance to reach here?
"The sun and the speculum cannot mix and unite, since they are far apart from each other. Nor can it be that the fire exists spontaneously, without an origin.
"You simply do not know that in the treasury of the Thus Come One, the nature of fire is true emptiness, and the nature of emptiness is true fire. Pure at its origin, it pervades the Dharma realm. It accords with living beings minds, in response to their capacity to know.
"Ananda, you should know that fire is generated in the place where a speculum is held up to the sunlight, and fire will be generated everywhere if specula are held up to the sunlight throughout the Dharmas realm. Since fire can come forth throughout the whole world, can there be any fixed place to which it is confined?
The basic premise of sorcery as don Juan presented it to me. He said that for sorcerer, the world of everyday life is not real, or out there, as we believe it is. For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description. ...a description that had been pounded into me from the moment I was born.
He pointed out that everyone who comes into contact with a child is a teacher who incessantly describes the world to him, until the moment when the child is capable of preceiving the world as it is described. According to don Juan, we have no memory of that portentous moment, simply because none of us could possibly have had any point of reference to compare it to anything else. From that moment on, however, the child is a member. He knows the description of the world; and his membership becomes full-fledged, I suppose, when he is capable of making all the proper perceptual interpretations which, by conforming to that description, validate it.
For don Juan , then , the reality of our day-to-day life consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we, the individuals who share a specific membership , have learned to make it common.
The idea that the perceptual interpretations that make up the world have a flow is congruous with the fact that they run uninterruptedly and are rarely, if ever, open to question. In fact, the reality of the world we know is so taken for granted that the basic premise of sorcery, that our reality is merely one of many descriptions, could hardly be taken as a serious proposition.
His contention was that he was teaching me how to "see" as opposed to merely "looking", and that "stopping the world" was the first step to "seeing".
From 'Journey to Ixtlan'
It's one of the Buddha's primary lessons on what it's a waste of time to try to think about. it's an unconjecturable. Sure, you can wonder - but there's no definitive reply one way or the other.
If you spent every moment wondering what Kamma is affecting who, from when, how and why, and how it got there, and who started it, and why it went this way....you'd never take another step, put a foot out the door, or breathe, even.
the one and only thing you can - and should - make sure you consider very carefully, are your own mental, verbal and physical actions. Your Kamma. just yours.
forget about collective kamma...you'd tie yourself in knots....Just focus on yourself.
Heckohboy, isn't that a challenge enough - !?
Spiny
Have you seen how successful Germany is in the economic market currently?
And what would Winston Churchill, Messrs Charles Stuart Rolls and Henry Royce, and countless thousands upon thousands of young men who gave up their lives for their country, say now, if they knew that one of the most Iconic brands in the United Kingdom - was now German....?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motor_Cars
see?
it really isn't that simple.....
Take a football game. When the man with the ball scores a goal, did the man score, or did the team score? Both of course, depending on where you are focused. Did the goal come about because of the actions of one team driving forward, or was the goal the fault of the opposite team not stopping them? Both, of course.
The actions of an entire society of people are made up of individual actions, some working toward a common goal and some against. Karma is a vast interwoven web made up of indivdual actions. The consequences of your actions effect other people, leading to actions on their part, in a messy feedback loop.
However, karma in the definition of judgement does not exist in either personal or collective form. Some idiot politician in Japan tried to say it was the "karma" of Japan to be hit by a devastating earthquake and flood because of some old traditions they had failed to follow as a nation. What utter nonsense! Neither was it an individual's "karma" to die in the flood because he happened to have drowned someone in a past life.
I really liked @robot's sorcery explanation. I've come to the conclusion that this relative reality we live in is a projection of our collective consciousness, like a dream we are co-creating and that if enough of us accepted reality in a different way we could change it significantly. It's all very tangible, very tenuous. I guess that's where emptiness comes in. That other ongoing conversation on emptiness still boggles my mind, but I'm sure I'll get it someday. My ego just doesn't want to accept it doesn't exist, it's not real, I have no soul!