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I can't say it has gotten rid of ignorance, but it sure has pointed me in the correct direction.
My life is peaceful and I am more kind to everyone around me. Not only that I am much more happier.
The fruits of meditation, ethics, compassionate action, and wisdom teachings are beneficial to me. Not only that it has given me a larger perspective of Buddhism, which is an all inclusive view of all the schools.
And it only has been getting better.
So from my personal experience and insights, yes it has really helped. Now will it totally irradicate ignorance and all the kleshas?
Only time will tell. Until then I have my bodhisattva vows, working on the six perfections, following the four noble truths, examining dependent origination, and emptiness teachings will do.
If it were merely an idea then it would be meaningless for me to spend my time talking about it and reading up on it and such.
But to be honest with you the teachings have helped with my life greatly. With an open mind and heart. What more do we need?
Emptiness teachings are a specific antidote to the inherent/dualistic clinging of mind.
Because a mind clings dualistically and inherently this conditions suffering.
You're saying that mind clings inherently???
When a mind is freed from clinging dualistically/inherently then suffering is no long conditioned.
If mind "inherently" clings, clinging is an essential and permanent attribute of mind, and mind cannot be freed from clinging and still be mind.
This is not getting away from views, but rather seeing how everything is ungraspable (experientially).
Again this is only your extremely limited experience. Things may be graspable and you just don't know it, like an ant doesn't know what a roller coaster is.
So what exactly are you asserting? Emptiness teachings are invalid because they are baseless or just a simple experience?
I've repeatedly said that the emptiness teachings, as you call them, offer meaning and purpose. But yes, it is just simple experience. How could it not be???
If it leads one out of suffering to liberation then how can it be an ants teaching?
You misconstrue my example, I never said it was an ants teaching. It is a humans teaching (which happens to be a stones throw from an ants teaching).
Like all teachings in Buddhism it is raft that leads one towards liberation or the cessation of suffering (or the elimination of greed, hatred and most important ignorance).
Or it is simply a religious teaching which offers meaning and purpose for our lives.
But whether or not such raft is useful is up to the individuals karma.
Rather, how you use it is your karma.
What is the purpose and function of your Buddhism?
Things are in flux. How do you grasp something that is in flux?
Do you not see the disconnect between an object that is constantly moving at a rate of 3 trillionths of a second and how we view it as permanent/abiding?
This may be extremely limiting, but what experience is outside of the six sense realms? Is experience dependent on contact, six senses, six objects, and six consciousness?
A mind is condition by ignorance. Is it not? To be born is to be conditioned with ignorance.
The mind clings to self, thus suffers. The self is posited as an entity that is permanent, independent and unitary. If such self exists it could not interact with anything else, nor would change. On the basis that the self is constantly changing, it is a projection of mind, thus lacking inherent existence. It exists only as a nominal projection on the basis of body and mind.
Another way to frame this is the teaching of non-self. In the seeing, there is only form, no seer. The subject was just an assumption based on minds conditioning to cling.
If emptiness is realized this solid self that we posit. For instance we hit our foot on something and we feel pain. that solid self. with the direct perception of emptiness that self is seen to be lacking of a reference point. when it is looked for it isn't anywhere. yet, there is still the sensation of self posited by mind/body.
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
This doesn't mean self doesn't exist. This means our projections of what self is are seen to be not solid, but instead it is a process. Thus there isn't anything to let go because it never existed how the mind posited it to begin with.
Not sure why I am typing all this out but this is not much of a belief. In meditation and in daily life I still find it funny that this "I, MY, ME" is projected onto experience after the fact. Yet with mindfulness one can see how contact becomes feeling and how feeling turn right into craving and clinging.
With the wisdom of emptiness and with Rigpa (don't kill me for using this word) one can see how consciousness does not grasp at objects, but normal mind does grasp at objects. Also rigpa is empty. Thought I'd throw that in there for you.
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
Religious dogma. "Clear seeing" is just a simple experience and after the experience you are the same as before the experience. Like visiting someplace you've never been before. It can be a novel experience and you might learn something, but you'll have all the same bad habits that you had before the experience. They may in fact get worse and you may develop other problems like "Emptiness sickness" etc...
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
Religious dogma. "Clear seeing" is just a simple experience and after the experience you are the same as before the experience. Like visiting someplace you've never been before. It can be a novel experience and you might learn something, but you'll have all the same bad habits that you had before the experience. They may in fact get worse and you may develop other problems like "Emptiness sickness" etc...
It can be an experience and it can always already be. That is dependent on the mindstreams capacity and karma. They do teach other teachings in Mahayana, other than emptiness.
Habits are countered by developing the six paramitas and morality.
What Buddhism do you study and practice? How is your Buddhism working for you?
So my question is: "Where does the emptiness go to, when you fill the bowl with water?"
@cinorjer: My reply based on my understanding: emptiness as referred in - everything is empty of inherent existence - means on direct experience of an object, it is found that the object is empty of its inherent existence. For example, book is empty of bookness, car is empty of carness as car is just an assembly of many parts put together, so there is no such thing inside a car which could be called a car in its individuality without been dependent on some other factors coming together.
Now when we look at a empty bowl, we are looking at it from subject-object duality, moreover we are saying empty bowl meaning the bowl is having nothing in it, or the bowl is filled with space in it. When we fill water in it, that space in bowl is replaced by water.
If we said bowl is empty meaning bowl is empty of inherent existence - which is ultimate truth, so even after bowl filled with water, then also the bowl is empty of inherent existence.
So the conceptual reality (evil exists) and the ultimate reality (there is no inherent evil) are both true. I was beginning to think that the ultimate reality was THE reality..but now I'm beginning to see that both are part of one? One is not superior over the other. Is this correct?
@pauliwago : Ultimate truth is direct experience of reality. Conventional truth is conditioned view of reality. Both are views of same thing, but the only difference is ultimate truth is based on direct experience and conventional truth is based on subject-object duality in which a subject perceives an object through his sense organs. The first leads to Nirvana which is unconditioned view of reality and the second leads to Samsara which is conditioned view of reality.
So my question is: "Where does the emptiness go to, when you fill the bowl with water?"
@cinorjer: My reply based on my understanding: emptiness as referred in - everything is empty of inherent existence - means on direct experience of an object, it is found that the object is empty of its inherent existence. For example, book is empty of bookness, car is empty of carness as car is just an assembly of many parts put together, so there is no such thing inside a car which could be called a car in its individuality without been dependent on some other factors coming together.
Now when we look at a empty bowl, we are looking at it from subject-object duality, moreover we are saying empty bowl meaning the bowl is having nothing in it, or the bowl is filled with space in it. When we fill water in it, that space in bowl is replaced by water.
If we said bowl is empty meaning bowl is empty of inherent existence - which is ultimate truth, so even after bowl filled with water, then also the bowl is empty of inherent existence.
I like that. Emptiness does not go anywhere. It remains, inherent in the form of the bowl. Pour the water out, and the emptiness that was always there is revealed once again. "Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness" as someone much wiser than I once wrote.
form is emptiness: no soul in things, things are made from parts emptiness is form: without the things there is no emptiness found. emptiness is there because things are there. it is an concept which can be applied to things.
how can this strange concept help?
if i feel bad and i think "ahh, why do i have to be such an *random insult*" i can remember my self that there is no hard coded core inside of me that forces me to act like i do. i can change my behaviour and i can change my life.
that my bad feelings doesnt have an inherent existence which is permanent, doesnt mean they just dissolve and i am happy from this insight. but it gives me the confidence that i can work and them and change them.
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
Religious dogma. "Clear seeing" is just a simple experience and after the experience you are the same as before the experience. Like visiting someplace you've never been before. It can be a novel experience and you might learn something, but you'll have all the same bad habits that you had before the experience. They may in fact get worse and you may develop other problems like "Emptiness sickness" etc...
It can be an experience and it can always already be. That is dependent on the mindstreams capacity and karma. They do teach other teachings in Mahayana, other than emptiness.
All religious and secular societies have moral codes, and in any case the topic is about deriving meaning from emptiness.
Not sure why I am typing all this out but this is not much of a belief.
Because it is obviously a very important belief.
=]
knowledge is gained via three methods:
reading or hearing. critical thinking and reflection direct perception in meditation and off meditation
How does your Buddhism work?
Your 'direct perception off meditation' did not seem effective in perceiving my previous answer to this question, but I'll reiterate once again. Buddhism offers meaning and purpose. That's what religions do.
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
Religious dogma. "Clear seeing" is just a simple experience and after the experience you are the same as before the experience. Like visiting someplace you've never been before. It can be a novel experience and you might learn something, but you'll have all the same bad habits that you had before the experience. They may in fact get worse and you may develop other problems like "Emptiness sickness" etc...
It can be an experience and it can always already be. That is dependent on the mindstreams capacity and karma. They do teach other teachings in Mahayana, other than emptiness.
All religious and secular societies have moral codes, and in any case the topic is about deriving meaning from emptiness.
Sure but we are talking about Mahayana. In Mahayana after the direct perception and even prior to the direct perception of emptiness an individual cultivates morality/ethics in their life.
Wisdom conditions morality and morality conditions wisdom.
In Mahayana the goal is to manifest all the positive qualities of the a Fully Enlightened Buddha. This occurs prior and even far after the initial realization of emptiness.
Because all things are empty of inherent existence, all things are possible. Meaning is possible only because things lack inherent existence. If a thing had inherent existence, we could only have one meaning attributed to such things. Not only do we have one, we have many. And on the basis of one and many, an independent or inherently existing thing cannot have intrinsic meaning/essence.
Why? Because it is dependent on a mind to perceive meaning. Emptiness is the ground, or to put more poetically the groundless ground.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
An understanding and adherence to a religious dogma can help one feel a meaning and purpose in thier life.
I didn't take that sense of meaning in the OP. I understood it as what is the use of the realization of emptiness.
The goal isn't to adhere to a series of beliefs in order to comfort oneself. The goal is to implement the teachings to bring about a transformation in ones mind to live a happier more fulfilled life and eventually enlightenment.
In that context a realization of emptiness that isn't a one off simple experience but a cultivated, experiential view of the world that loosens ones grasping on experience as so solid where events effect our minds so intensly. So that is the use of understanding and realizing emptiness.
All religious and secular societies have moral codes, and in any case the topic is about deriving meaning from emptiness.
Sure but we are talking about Mahayana. In Mahayana after the direct perception and even prior to the direct perception of emptiness an individual cultivates morality/ethics in their life.
Wisdom conditions morality and morality conditions wisdom.
People cultivate morality/ethics in their life both religiously and secularly. Again, this topic is specifically about emptiness and meaning. You can bring morality into it, but it strays from the specific topic of descussion and as I've pointed out morality/ethics is not only developed exclusively in Mahayana or religion, but is also cultivated secularly.
In Mahayana the goal is to manifest all the positive qualities of the a Fully Enlightened Buddha. This occurs prior and even far after the initial realization of emptiness.
Yes, this gives purpose and meaning to lives.
Because all things are empty of inherent existence, all things are possible.
Once again you cannot know this to be true. You cannot demonstrate this to be true. More dogma, if you refuse to admit that you don't know and can't demonstrate it that is.
Meaning is possible only because things lack inherent existence. If a thing had inherent existence, we could only have one meaning attributed to such things.
This suggests that meaning is entirely chaotic. It isn't. Meanings change, but that has nothing to do with knowing whether or not things have inherent nature.
Not only do we have one, we have many. And on the basis of one and many, an independent or inherently existing thing cannot have intrinsic meaning/essence.
Why? Because it is dependent on a mind to perceive meaning. Emptiness is the ground, or to put more poetically the groundless ground.
You're confusing meaning and essence. I think that's because you believe everything is a projection of mind.
The goal isn't to adhere to a series of beliefs in order to comfort oneself. The goal is to implement the teachings to bring about a transformation in ones mind to live a happier more fulfilled life and eventually enlightenment.
Living to be happier, more fulfilled and with a long range goal is a life with meaning and purpose.
In that context a realization of emptiness that isn't a one off simple experience but a cultivated, experiential view of the world that loosens ones grasping on experience as so solid where events effect our minds so intensly. So that is the use of understanding and realizing emptiness.
So a "one off" realization of emptiness doesn't loosen grasping, it must be developed. Yes I agree.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
What is the meaning of virtue to a dog? There isn't one because a dog doesn't have a mind that can comprehend that.
What is the meaning of virtue to a psychopath? Maybe its a way to get people to do what they want. Maybe its seen as a delusion that some people cling to to make themselves feel better.
What is the meaning of virtue to a monk? A way to help oneself and others and to attain enlightenment.
Meaning doesn't exist in and of itself. The meaning of any phenomena (including emptiness) depends on other factors.
What is the meaning of virtue to a dog? There isn't one because a dog doesn't have a mind that can comprehend that.
What is the meaning of virtue to a psychopath? Maybe its a way to get people to do what they want. Maybe its seen as a delusion that some people cling to to make themselves feel better.
What is the meaning of virtue to a monk? A way to help oneself and others and to attain enlightenment.
Meaning doesn't exist in and of itself. The meaning of any phenomena (including emptiness) depends on other factors.
How does this relate to the current dialog, if it's supposed to?
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
So it doesn't relate to the current dialog.
The dialog is about meaning and emptiness. The argument has centered around dependent arising and inherent existence. Emptiness doctrine states that nothing exists independently and my example was an effort to illustrate that.
I'm curious as to your view of the OP. I only remember reading about your disagreements to other people's views.
The dialog is about meaning and emptiness. The argument has centered around dependent arising and inherent existence. Emptiness doctrine states that nothing exists independently and my example was an effort to illustrate that.
I'm curious as to your view of the OP. I only remember reading about your disagreements to other people's views.
I was asking about the current dialog (between teriyaki and myself). But anyway, yeah, you add meaning to emptiness with dependent arising.
If everything is empty... that makes everything kinda useless...
why not make the best of it...and help yourself and other people??
"In the entire world, there is only one clear and abiding thing. What is it?"
Saying everything is kinda useless can be mistaken for nihilism. When the mind is empty, is it useless? Would a bowl even be useful without its emptiness? Emptiness is what gives the world usefulness. When the question arises, "Is this all there is? You are born, grow old, and die, and that's it?" then you are pointing to form. To appearances. But form is inherently empty. When a baby takes his first breath, what is being born? An individual body, a collection of cells that means only that the world has another mouth to feed? That's looking at form only.
Is this all there is? Yes, this moment is all there is, and it's glorious. What will you do with this moment? It's empty. Only you can fill the emptiness with meaning.
"Buddha says everyone has Buddha-Nature (potential to be enlightened). Master Joju says a dog has no Buddha Nature. Which one is right, and which one is wrong? Understand and you find the true way." (another saying by Master Seung Sahn)
that my bad feelings doesnt have an inherent existence which is permanent, doesnt mean they just dissolve and i am happy from this insight. but it gives me the confidence that i can work and them and change them.
Comments
My life is peaceful and I am more kind to everyone around me. Not only that I am much more happier.
The fruits of meditation, ethics, compassionate action, and wisdom teachings are beneficial to me. Not only that it has given me a larger perspective of Buddhism, which is an all inclusive view of all the schools.
And it only has been getting better.
So from my personal experience and insights, yes it has really helped. Now will it totally irradicate ignorance and all the kleshas?
Only time will tell. Until then I have my bodhisattva vows, working on the six perfections, following the four noble truths, examining dependent origination, and emptiness teachings will do.
If it were merely an idea then it would be meaningless for me to spend my time talking about it and reading up on it and such.
But to be honest with you the teachings have helped with my life greatly. With an open mind and heart. What more do we need?
Do you not see the disconnect between an object that is constantly moving at a rate of 3 trillionths of a second and how we view it as permanent/abiding?
This may be extremely limiting, but what experience is outside of the six sense realms?
Is experience dependent on contact, six senses, six objects, and six consciousness?
what is not perceivable is not knowable.
we work with what we have: six sense, six objects, six consciousness and contact, feeling, craving, becoming and suffering.
what is outside of this? and if there is something does it matter? does it liberate? does it bring about the cessation of suffering?
The mind clings to self, thus suffers. The self is posited as an entity that is permanent, independent and unitary. If such self exists it could not interact with anything else, nor would change. On the basis that the self is constantly changing, it is a projection of mind, thus lacking inherent existence. It exists only as a nominal projection on the basis of body and mind.
Another way to frame this is the teaching of non-self. In the seeing, there is only form, no seer. The subject was just an assumption based on minds conditioning to cling.
If emptiness is realized this solid self that we posit. For instance we hit our foot on something and we feel pain. that solid self. with the direct perception of emptiness that self is seen to be lacking of a reference point. when it is looked for it isn't anywhere. yet, there is still the sensation of self posited by mind/body.
The self is just misperception, thus with clear seeing ignorance is pulled out from its core.
This doesn't mean self doesn't exist. This means our projections of what self is are seen to be not solid, but instead it is a process. Thus there isn't anything to let go because it never existed how the mind posited it to begin with.
Not sure why I am typing all this out but this is not much of a belief. In meditation and in daily life I still find it funny that this "I, MY, ME" is projected onto experience after the fact. Yet with mindfulness one can see how contact becomes feeling and how feeling turn right into craving and clinging.
With the wisdom of emptiness and with Rigpa (don't kill me for using this word) one can see how consciousness does not grasp at objects, but normal mind does grasp at objects. Also rigpa is empty. Thought I'd throw that in there for you.
Fix me please.
They do teach other teachings in Mahayana, other than emptiness.
Habits are countered by developing the six paramitas and morality.
What Buddhism do you study and practice? How is your Buddhism working for you?
knowledge is gained via three methods:
reading or hearing.
critical thinking and reflection
direct perception in meditation and off meditation
How does your Buddhism work?
Now when we look at a empty bowl, we are looking at it from subject-object duality, moreover we are saying empty bowl meaning the bowl is having nothing in it, or the bowl is filled with space in it. When we fill water in it, that space in bowl is replaced by water.
If we said bowl is empty meaning bowl is empty of inherent existence - which is ultimate truth, so even after bowl filled with water, then also the bowl is empty of inherent existence.
This is all based on my understanding.
form is emptiness: no soul in things, things are made from parts
emptiness is form: without the things there is no emptiness found. emptiness is there because things are there. it is an concept which can be applied to things.
how can this strange concept help?
if i feel bad and i think "ahh, why do i have to be such an *random insult*" i can remember my self that there is no hard coded core inside of me that forces me to act like i do. i can change my behaviour and i can change my life.
that my bad feelings doesnt have an inherent existence which is permanent, doesnt mean they just dissolve and i am happy from this insight. but it gives me the confidence that i can work and them and change them.
Wisdom conditions morality and morality conditions wisdom.
In Mahayana the goal is to manifest all the positive qualities of the a Fully Enlightened Buddha. This occurs prior and even far after the initial realization of emptiness.
Because all things are empty of inherent existence, all things are possible. Meaning is possible only because things lack inherent existence. If a thing had inherent existence, we could only have one meaning attributed to such things. Not only do we have one, we have many. And on the basis of one and many, an independent or inherently existing thing cannot have intrinsic meaning/essence.
Why? Because it is dependent on a mind to perceive meaning. Emptiness is the ground, or to put more poetically the groundless ground.
I didn't take that sense of meaning in the OP. I understood it as what is the use of the realization of emptiness.
The goal isn't to adhere to a series of beliefs in order to comfort oneself. The goal is to implement the teachings to bring about a transformation in ones mind to live a happier more fulfilled life and eventually enlightenment.
In that context a realization of emptiness that isn't a one off simple experience but a cultivated, experiential view of the world that loosens ones grasping on experience as so solid where events effect our minds so intensly. So that is the use of understanding and realizing emptiness.
What is the meaning of virtue to a psychopath? Maybe its a way to get people to do what they want. Maybe its seen as a delusion that some people cling to to make themselves feel better.
What is the meaning of virtue to a monk? A way to help oneself and others and to attain enlightenment.
Meaning doesn't exist in and of itself. The meaning of any phenomena (including emptiness) depends on other factors.
if there is no cause is there an effect?
I'm curious as to your view of the OP. I only remember reading about your disagreements to other people's views.
that makes everything kinda useless...
why not make the best of it...and help yourself and other people??
Saying everything is kinda useless can be mistaken for nihilism. When the mind is empty, is it useless? Would a bowl even be useful without its emptiness? Emptiness is what gives the world usefulness. When the question arises, "Is this all there is? You are born, grow old, and die, and that's it?" then you are pointing to form. To appearances. But form is inherently empty. When a baby takes his first breath, what is being born? An individual body, a collection of cells that means only that the world has another mouth to feed? That's looking at form only.
Is this all there is? Yes, this moment is all there is, and it's glorious. What will you do with this moment? It's empty. Only you can fill the emptiness with meaning.
"Buddha says everyone has Buddha-Nature (potential to be enlightened). Master Joju says a dog has no Buddha Nature. Which one is right, and which one is wrong? Understand and you find the true way." (another saying by Master Seung Sahn)
Yes, impermanence can be very liberating.
Spiny