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An Inquiry Into The Nature Of Light

edited February 2012 in General Banter
I'm reading Einstein's book on relativity, and when trying to think about an example he gave, I went on my own tangent on the nature of light, and then the nature of reality and all things. Here's my thoughts, as I wrote them. Hope you like, and perhaps have some thoughts on. :)

As I think about the events described by Einstein and their implications, I necessarily begin to inquire into the nature of light, particularly with reference to the lightning bolt, as per his example. The lightning bolt descends downards, and yet it is the light-waves horizontal motion that produces its image in my reality. I try to imagine the light moving through space, from the place where the lightning bolt strikes to my eye-balls. The delay from when the lightning strikes “in reality” to when it appears in MY reality becomes apparent.

I then think about these light-waves travelling in my direction, producing my image, and then realize that light-waves are actually travelling in EVERY direction, hence why anyone can see the lightning strike, regardless of their angle in relation to it. I begin to inquire about the source of these light-waves which are travelling in all directions, namely the lightning-bolt in and of itself. I think about the fact that while these waves are travelling in all directions, the lightning bolt in and of itself is descending vertically. What is the differentiation between the upper parts of the lightning bolt and the lower parts of the lightning bolt? Let me explain.

Let us imagine a point in time where the lightning bolt is in the middle of its descent, not having yet reached the ground. Its distance from the ground is irrelevant here, you can pick any arbitrary distance. Let’s say the tip of the lightning-bolt is 50 feet from the ground at this point, just because perhaps picking a specific distance may make it easier to conceptualize. First of all, what does it even mean for the lightning bolt to be 50 feet above the ground at a certain point in time? What about the light-waves emenating from the bolt? When we say that the lightning bolt is 50 feet above the ground, does that mean that the extent to which the light-waves has travelled is 50 feet above the ground, and that the source of the light-waves, namely the “actual lightning bolt,” is higher up? Or do we mean that the “actual lightning bolt,” the source of the light-waves, is 50 feet above the ground? If that is the case, then there are certainly light-waves emenating from the lightning-bolt which would be closer to the ground, if not having already hit the ground. And what IS an object, if not for its energy-waves?

This all necessarily leads to a question of the ultimate nature of all things. Is there even an actual object in existence at all that PRODUCES energy-waves? My basic question is this: is there an inherently existing object that produces energy-waves, or is there merely a fluctuation of already existing energy-waves, producing an energy-frequency which gives the APPEARANCE of an “object” existing, which we might say PRODUCES energy-waves which create its existence in your reality, but in actuality is merely a fluctuation of an already existing energy-field. What is the actual source of the light-waves that produce the image of the lightning bolt? At what point does it shift from BEING the lightning bolt to being light waves EMENATING FROM the lightning bolt? Is there even a distinction at all? If there isn't a distinction, than we cannot say that the lightning bolt even exists as a lightning bolt at all. It's everywhere.

Comments

  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2012
    nice topic...........actually i also want to understand somethings about light.......what i have heard is light has the properties of both waves and particles called photons..... But since i read physics long back till my graduation, so my touch to physics has lost currently - but since quantum physics has started supporting facts which spirituality concluded thousands of years ago, so some interest has arose in me recently to understand some things of physics like relativity, light etc........

    Light behaves properties of waves. photons as i recollect are packages or bundles of light - so light behaves properties of particles also - is this correct, or am i wrong here - if i am wrong, please rectify me here and also in below queries.

    Now questions arise:
    we see a steel cup on a table - now how do we see a steel cup - cup is not emitting any light waves from itself as it is just made of steel. But we see this cup in presence of light of bulb or tubelight.

    So how are we able to see this cup - is it that the cup is visible because the light particles from bulb, hit the surface of cup and gets reflected and comes to our eyes forming the image of steel cup in our brain? But if this is so, the light particles would be reflected in all directions and how come the proper reflected rays only reach our eye to form a well-shaped normal steel cup, instead of a distorted steel cup or even so distorted not to form even a shape of cup? If we take light in wave form, so similarly the waves should be traveling in all directions, so how does all proper waves reach eye to create a proper image of cup?

    I know this can be a very basic physics question, but somehow i do not understand how this is happening.

    May be my understanding of light is very wrong, if it is so, then please rectify me. Thanks in advance.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Lightening bolts from the sky, connect with lightening boilts coming from the earth.

    So yes, it's everywhere - it's just channelled and propelled.

    (I'm sorry to lower the tone, but I'm always remiunded of a single quotation when people talk about light, its speed, trajectory and whatever.... That it travels faster than sound.
    Which is why some people appear to be very bright until they open their mouths. I try to remember this humorous observation, when I consider what I intend to contribute.)


    I hope the above is of interest and relevance, because Scientific - I most definitely ain't....
  • I love this saying hahaha. I am going to translate it into Thai and see if it catches. However, most Thais are ignorant to the idea of how fast sound and light travels, so they may just laugh and claim they understand when they don't, a typical Thai thing to do. Thanks for the chuckle of the chuckle of the day though @federica

  • This all necessarily leads to a question of the ultimate nature of all things. Is there even an actual object in existence at all that PRODUCES energy-waves? My basic question is this: is there an inherently existing object that produces energy-waves, or is there merely a fluctuation of already existing energy-waves, producing an energy-frequency which gives the APPEARANCE of an “object” existing, which we might say PRODUCES energy-waves which create its existence in your reality, but in actuality is merely a fluctuation of an already existing energy-field.
    A lightening bolt is a process. First there is a electric potential, then charges flow from the clouds to the earth and from earth to the clouds. The source of the light that you sense with your eye are the atoms between the earth and the cloud. The flowing charges excite the atoms trough collisions. The excited atoms relax by emitting a photon. To say this process is an "object", is adventurous even without the buddhist point of view.

    In physics we have the principle of conservation of energy, which means energy can neither be destroyed nor created (produced). Objects dont produce "energy-waves", they have in someway energy stored and that stored energy can be converted into another form of energy.

    Take a ball from the ground (you put potential energy in it), throw it in a pond (potential to kinetic energy), trough collision with the water molecules the kinetic energy of the ball is transfered to the water molecules. Because of the bond between the water molecules the energy is transfered between the water molecules. This process results in a wave motion on the surface of the water.

    What is the actual source of the light-waves that produce the image of the lightning bolt? At what point does it shift from BEING the lightning bolt to being light waves EMENATING FROM the lightning bolt? Is there even a distinction at all? If there isn't a distinction, than we cannot say that the lightning bolt even exists as a lightning bolt at all. It's everywhere.
    What is the source of the light-waves in a lightening bolt?

    The atoms emit the photons, so they are the source.

    Now... why did the atoms emit the photons? Because of the flowing charges. Why did the charges flow? Because of the electric potential. Why was there a electric potential? Because of friction between clouds. Why did the clouds move? ... endless process.

    So how are we able to see this cup - is it that the cup is visible because the light particles from bulb, hit the surface of cup and gets reflected and comes to our eyes forming the image of steel cup in our brain? But if this is so, the light particles would be reflected in all directions and how come the proper reflected rays only reach our eye to form a well-shaped normal steel cup, instead of a distorted steel cup or even so distorted not to form even a shape of cup? If we take light in wave form, so similarly the waves should be traveling in all directions, so how does all proper waves reach eye to create a proper image of cup?
    Imagine that the cup consists of endless points. Each of these points emits light in every possible direction. Now take on of these points. The light of this point reaches your eye. Your eye focues all lightrays from that point that reaches your eye on to the retina. So every point of the whole object is mapped on one point of your retina. The rest is made by your brain.

    Image:

    http://imageshack.us/f/442/seeing.png/

    Hope that helps.



  • At what point does it shift from BEING the lightning bolt to being light waves EMENATING FROM the lightning bolt? Is there even a distinction at all? If there isn't a distinction, than we cannot say that the lightning bolt even exists as a lightning bolt at all. It's everywhere.
    I think, like "solid" objects, it strikes me (ha) as an issue of concentration. Like, when you toss a pebble in the water, at what point is it the initial, roundish ripple, and at what point is it the waves emanating from the ripple? The initial, concentrated (aggregated?) event is the brightest (rippliest) at it's beginning point, but then the waves of light or water diminish in size until eventually the energy seems to melt back into stillness.

    As humans we end up agreeing--sort of--on what's a ripple and what's no longer a ripple; certainly at the moment of the pebble's impact we can all see a ripple, and then at some point a minute later or so, we generally agree we can't see any more ripples. There may still be tiny measurable ripples but over time we're more and more in agreement that we can't see them, so we consider the event "over," the ripples "gone."

    Like the lightning bolt, the ripple is just a change in what we see as the shape of the already-existing water, but over time we humans have named this disturbance of the smooth water a "ripple." So part of it is something that actually happens (change in the water shape) but another part is our agreement as to what to call this change.

    I'm reminded of working on the Hocąk dictionary--I was typing in a word which the teachers had translated as "the moment during a rainy day when the sun bursts through for just a second." There's a very simple, short word for that flash of sunlight, but in English it takes a whole sentence ;) On the other hand, you ought to see the convolutions we went through trying to come up with a word for "computer."

  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks for the explanation.

    So 3 queries:
    1. so if an object has acquired energy say potential energy, then this energy can be converted into light, means is light also a form of energy? A very basic question, but still asking. Please tell as it seems to me that i have forgotten much physics now.
    2. The cup is visible in light of bulb. So in your explanation, you said - Imagine that the cup consists of endless points. Each of these points emits light in every possible direction. Now take on of these points. The light of this point reaches your eye. Your eye focues all lightrays from that point that reaches your eye on to the retina. So every point of the whole object is mapped on one point of your retina. - so a query here how does each point of the cup emits light in every possible direction? Is it that the light of the bulb is coming from all directions to that point and so getting reflected in all directions from that point ?
    3. In case of lightning bolt, atoms getting charged up, release their charge by emitting photons - means electrical energy is converted into light energy? So an atom on collision acquires charge means the atom acquires more electrons in its orbits, to make it unstable? - so the atom releases that electron from that orbit to make it stable again? - so is the release of electron from atom releasing some energy in form of light, or is that electron getting converted into a photon? Please tell what is happening here.

    Thanks in advance.
  • Maybe slow down the speed of the lightning to simplify it, like sun rises it brighten, and sunset it darken...:D
  • @ihepf: Thanks for the explanation.

    So 3 queries:
    1. so if an object has acquired energy say potential energy, then this energy can be converted into light, means is light also a form of energy? A very basic question, but still asking. Please tell as it seems to me that i have forgotten much physics now.
    Good question, not so easy to answer ;).

    Light is electromagnetic radiation. That means the electromagnetic field is propagating as a wave trough space. Light can also be described as particles a.k.a photons. Each of these photons has a definite energy which is calculated by E = h*f, where h is a constant called Plank's quantum and f is the frequency of the photon. Blue light has a higher frequency as red light so the photons of the blue light have more energy than the photons of red light.

    Is light energy? A classical answer would be: Light is not energy it transports energy. In the end physics doesnt really answer questions like "what is something?", it answers "how does it behave?".

    2. The cup is visible in light of bulb. So in your explanation, you said - Imagine that the cup consists of endless points. Each of these points emits light in every possible direction. Now take on of these points. The light of this point reaches your eye. Your eye focues all lightrays from that point that reaches your eye on to the retina. So every point of the whole object is mapped on one point of your retina. - so a query here how does each point of the cup emits light in every possible direction? Is it that the light of the bulb is coming from all directions to that point and so getting reflected in all directions from that point ?
    Again good question and im not sure if i can answer it correctly because i dont know Quantum Electrodynamics, which is the fullest description of the interaction between matter and light. So here is my take:

    When we imagine the reflection of something we think of something like a billiard ball getting reflected from the sides of the billiard table. When light gets reflected from a surface, it doesnt mean it just bounces back. There are several mechanism how light can interact with the atoms of the surface. One would be: The photons of the light get absorbed. That means the energy of the photon puts one electron of the atom into a higher state. Like putting a ball from the ground on to a rack. Now this electron can come back from the higher state to the state it had before and while it is dropping down it emits a photon with the same frequency as the first photon. This photon can be emitted in every possible direction. Now this whole process of absorption and emitting can happen so fast that it can be called reflection.

    3. In case of lightning bolt, atoms getting charged up, release their charge by emitting photons - means electrical energy is converted into light energy? So an atom on collision acquires charge means the atom acquires more electrons in its orbits, to make it unstable? - so the atom releases that electron from that orbit to make it stable again? - so is the release of electron from atom releasing some energy in form of light, or is that electron getting converted into a photon? Please tell what is happening here.
    Same disclaimer as above ;).

    The atoms dont get charged up. The atoms in the air collide with the charges that are accelerated by the electric potential between cloud and earth.

    Now different things can happen:

    An electron from the atom can be knocked out from the atom. The atom has now a free place that can be taken by another electron from the same atom. When the electron switches places it emits a photon.

    A free electron in the air can take the place in the atom resulting in emission of a photon.

    A electron from the atom could be excited in to a higher state. When it falls back it emits a photon.

    Everytime an electron changes it state from high to low it can emit a photon.

    http://www.maphi.de/physik/grafiken/laser_emission.gif



  • This photon can be emitted in every possible direction.
    After rethinking, im not sure anymore if this is correct, probably not, because there is obviously a preferred direction in reflection. But what is really important for the correct imaging process is that every ray of light that comes from one point of the object is focused onto one point of the retina. So even if the point doesnt emit in every direction, as long as that rays that are emitted reach your eye and are focused correctly on to one point of the retina you see the object correctly.

    I am near near-sighted. The focus of the lense of my eye doesnt lie on my retina. That causes my vision to be blurred. http://www.visiondepot.ca/sitebuilder/images/Near_sighted-561x296.jpg

    There are no correct or proper lightrays that come from an object that create the image of the object. The correct image creating is ensured trough the function of the lense.



  • Ok, forget the absorption emission thing for reflection... ;). This image should explain how the light gets from the source to the object to your eye:

    http://imageshack.us/f/141/reflection.png/



  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks a lot for explaining all these things. :clap:

    Ok. so your answers have brought some clarity about light to me.

    So now some more queries:
    1. Is the object being visible to our eyes, like a cup, not because of a simple phenomena of reflection of just light falling and then getting reflected from surface of all points on the object- or - is it because of light getting absorbed in atoms of the object, charging their electrons and these electrons when getting back to their normal state are emitting photons?

    2. Is this the only underlying mechanism of light getting created in all cases - of electrons moving from higher state to lower state? Or there can be other reasons of creation of light as well?

    3. Since you said that - Light is electromagnetic radiation. That means the electromagnetic field is propagating as a wave trough space. Light can also be described as particles a.k.a photons. So my question is what is the difference that creates light as light even though it is just electromagnetic radiation created by electromagnetic field? What distinguishes light from electric signal, magnetic field even though all are created through moving of electrons somehow - or is it not so?This can be a too idiotic question to ask, but still you can consider me to be an idiot to not understand even these basic things in physics, but please help me to understand it.

    4. Moreover, you said - Everytime an electron changes it state from high to low it can emit a photon.
    http://www.maphi.de/physik/grafiken/laser_emission.gif
    in this diagram it is written En-Em = h*f . i think this is because of negative energy of electron so En>Em as per maths. Am i thinking it correctly?

    Please tell. Thanks in advance.
  • @ihepf: Thanks a lot for explaining all these things. :clap:
    Explaining things is fun because it is so hard. Your questions drive me back to my books ;).

    So now some more queries:
    1. Is the object being visible to our eyes, like a cup, not because of a simple phenomena of reflection of just light falling and then getting reflected from surface of all points on the object- or - is it because of light getting absorbed in atoms of the object, charging their electrons and these electrons when getting back to their normal state are emitting photons?
    Yes it is visible because the light gets reflected and reaches our eyes. I got my explanations mixed up. The classical explanation of rays bouncing of things and then getting focused by the eye on the retina is perfectly fine to understand why you see things.

    Now if you look deeply at the matter you see that the light not just bounces of a solid surface but there are more complicated mechanisms that let it look like it gets bounced off.

    2. Is this the only underlying mechanism of light getting created in all cases - of electrons moving from higher state to lower state? Or there can be other reasons of creation of light as well?
    I will rephrase the question a little bit. Because light is electromagnetic radiation like radio waves or x-rays etc... its all the same but with different frequencies.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/EM_spectrum.svg/490px-EM_spectrum.svg.png

    What mechanisms create electromagnetic radiation?

    The classical mechanism to create electromagnetic radiation is to take a charge and wave it around.

    This is what the electric field of a pointcharge looks like. Everything is static.
    http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/PY106/2e.GIF

    Now, if you take the charge and pull it up and down (thats what happening in an antenna)
    this will happen:
    http://www.chemgapedia.de/vsengine/media/vsc/de/ph/14/ep/einfuehrung/emwellen/bilder/hertz_dipol.jpg

    The electromagnetic field forms a wave which can travel independently of the charge trough space.

    Like swirling your finger around in water and creating surface waves trough that.

    Electromagnetic waves are always produced when a charge is accelerated (including getting slow and changing direction).

    The other mechanism is when an electron changes its state of energy trough emitting a photon, which i already described to you.

    These are the two mechanism i know of, how they get together i dont... so i better stop here. ;).

    3. Since you said that - Light is electromagnetic radiation. That means the electromagnetic field is propagating as a wave trough space. Light can also be described as particles a.k.a photons. So my question is what is the difference that creates light as light even though it is just electromagnetic radiation created by electromagnetic field? What distinguishes light from electric signal, magnetic field even though all are created through moving of electrons somehow - or is it not so?This can be a too idiotic question to ask, but still you can consider me to be an idiot to not understand even these basic things in physics, but please help me to understand it.
    If there is a flow of charge like in a electric signal, that flow creates a magnetic field arround the conductor. So the difference to radiation is that to get radiation you have to let the charges flow forth and back. You need accelerating, like i described above. You need a change in the flow.

    4. Moreover, you said - Everytime an electron changes it state from high to low it can emit a photon.
    http://www.maphi.de/physik/grafiken/laser_emission.gif in this diagram it is written En-Em = h*f . i think this is because of negative energy of electron so En>Em as per maths. Am i thinking it correctly?
    Your thinking is correct, thats a problem of scale. There is no negative energy but you can calculated as if. Em is a state with higher energy En a state with lower energy dropping down from Em to En gives a photon with Em-En. I guess in the image free electrons have energy above 0 bound electrons below 0. I made this image for clarification:

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/192/atommw.png/

    This can be a too idiotic question to ask, but still you can consider me to be an idiot to not understand even these basic things in physics, but please help me to understand it.
    To understand the basic things correctly is probably the hardest part. Your question are very good and no where near idiotic. I doubt there are idiotic questions. If you dont know you have to ask.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks again for your explanation. :clap:
    Now, if you take the charge and pull it up and down (thats what happening in an antenna)
    this will happen:
    http://www.chemgapedia.de/vsengine/media/vsc/de/ph/14/ep/einfuehrung/emwellen/bilder/hertz_dipol.jpg

    The electromagnetic field forms a wave which can travel independently of the charge trough space.
    Can you please explain this diagram in more detail - some things like from top to down - what is the first rod showing, then in the second diagram how the charges appeared, then what happened in third figure, then charges how reversed in fourth figure and what is the fifth rod showing. What is strom in red? what is t and T - i think T is time period of a complete cycle of a wave and t is time at any moment - is this correct?

    Moreover in this figure, blue is electric field and yellow is magnetic field - so is the sum or totality of both fields' waves constitute electromagnetic field waves or electromagnetic radiation - of which visible light is a part?

    a strange question came to my mind just now - what is propagating here in the electromagnetic waves - so thought of waves in water, what is propagating there - just the effect of the movement of water molecules after energy exchange from each-other , but how does they form that shape of circles and no other shape? So in electromagnetic waves, what is getting propagated here? Moreover, i think electric field if vector E and magnetic field is vector B, so is the electromagnetic field's effect at any point in space the vector sum of these vectors? :scratch:

    Please tell. Thanks in advance.

  • Can you please explain this diagram in more detail - some things like from top to down - what is the first rod showing, then in the second diagram how the charges appeared, then what happened in third figure, then charges how reversed in fourth figure and what is the fifth rod showing. What is strom in red? what is t and T - i think T is time period of a complete cycle of a wave and t is time at any moment - is this correct?
    The first rod shows current flowing trough a conductor. That current creates a circular magnetic field arround the conductor. That Amperes law.

    In the second image you see that now there is magnetic field(orange) and electric field(blue). The electric field was induced by the change of the magnetic field. Thats Faradays law of induction.

    In the third image the flow of the current is reversed. This creates a reversed magnetic field around the conductor and closes the electric field lines which is shown in image 4. This whole process now repeats itself.

    A change of the electric field induces a magnetic field, a change of the magnetic field induces a electric field. Thats how the wave is propagating trough space creating itself out of itself.

    Moreover in this figure, blue is electric field and yellow is magnetic field - so is the sum or totality of both fields' waves constitute electromagnetic field waves or electromagnetic radiation - of which visible light is a part?
    Yes, both fields together are the electromagnetic field.

    a strange question came to my mind just now - what is propagating here in the electromagnetic waves - so thought of waves in water, what is propagating there - just the effect of the movement of water molecules after energy exchange from each-other
    Yes, thats right.

    In every wave what is propagated is energy. So the energy of the source of the wave is propagating trough the medium in form of a wave.

    but how does they form that shape of circles and no other shape?
    If the wave propagates in every direction the same way a circular shape is what follows automatically. Draw a point on a paper, now go from this point in each possible direction the same distance and draw a new point. If you connect the new points you get something circular, and if you draw infinite new points in each possible direction you get a circle. Do this in 3d and you get a sphere.

    So in electromagnetic waves, what is getting propagated here?
    The difference between electromagnetic waves and water waves or sound waves is that there is no medium which is disturbed and creates the wave. The electromagnetic wave creates itself trough the mechanism described above. There was once a theory of a medium for the electromagnetic wave called aether, but trough experiment that aether was falsified.

    Moreover, i think electric field if vector E and magnetic field is vector B, so is the electromagnetic field's effect at any point in space the vector sum of these vectors?
    Yes, its the sum of the vector of each force. The electric force produced by the electric field and the magnetic force produced by the magnetic field.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @ihepf: Hats off to you. Many thanks for your answers. :thumbsup:

    Your answers are clearing some things in my mind and also creating further questions in my mind :eek2:

    So some more questions now, seems to me that i am total idiot to not understand anything in physics by myself :banghead: , but since i have found a physics teacher here ;) , so let me try to understand some physics also :o

    So some more questions:
    does electromagnetic waves propagate energy? electrical energy is there i think or is it not an energy? we say magnetic force but is there magnetic energy also, or only magnetic field waves but no magnetic energy? Does sound also propagate energy, or sound is just a medium of disturbance of molecules in air, hitting our ear-drums, then vibrating our ear-drums and these are converted into signals by our ear muscles and then these signals reach our brain, which we interpret as sound - is this understanding ok, or is it totally wrong - if it is wrong, then please rectify it.

    Thanks in advance.
  • does electromagnetic waves propagate energy?
    Yes. Except from nuclear energy and thermal energy from the hot lava core, most energy on earth was transfered from the sun via sunlight. When you eat, you eat energy from sun converted by plants trough photosynthesis.
    electrical energy is there i think or is it not an energy?
    Yes there is electrial energy, its the energy stored in the electrical field, which is generated by distributions of charge.

    we say magnetic force but is there magnetic energy also, or only magnetic field waves but no magnetic energy?
    same as above, the energy is in the magnetic field.

    Does sound also propagate energy, or sound is just a medium of disturbance of molecules in air, hitting our ear-drums, then vibrating our ear-drums and these are converted into signals by our ear muscles and then these signals reach our brain, which we interpret as sound - is this understanding ok, or is it totally wrong - if it is wrong, then please rectify it.
    Sound is a wave and all waves propagate energy. Sound uses matter as medium. There are sound waves in gases, liquids and solids. Your understanding how the sound wave is converted into signals is correct. If sound wouldnt propagate energy there wouldnt be energy to vibrate the ear-drums. Everytime something happens energy is involved.



  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks again.

    So coming back to light, the 2 ways of generation of light are - electromagnetic field and electrons moving from high state to low state emitting photons.

    So some questions again:
    Light is behaving both as wave and as a packet of energy called photon. So when we say packet of energy called photon, do we mean that light is behaving like matter , means like a physical packet of biscuits or cakes - meaning Newtonian physics applies to it - or there is some different sense of this packet of energy, which is called photon?

    A silly question now :eek2: :
    Since light is electromagnetic radiation , so whenever there is any form of light will it still have both the electric fields and magnetic fields associated with it? If yes, then why we do not feel this electric field and magnetic field in sunlight or light of bulb?

    One question regarding sound:
    When one thing strikes another thing e.g. a cup striking a plate, so this is ok to understand that the kinetic energy gets converted into sound energy. So how is this transformation to sound energy happening - my guess is the air molecules between the touching surfaces of the two things gets the energy transferred, so these energy gained air molecules through waves hit our ears to realize sound in our brain - is this ok? But a question here, when the two surfaces touch each other, the air between their surfaces is removed, so how come the air molecules get this kinetic energy transferred - or is the surrounding air molecules which acquires this energy?

    Just now a thought came to my mind - a question which may be too silly to ask, but still asking - when we throw a ball, the ball moves in air - it is ok to understand that we have applied external force and so the ball acquired kinetic energy and so the ball moves in air - now the question is what has actually happened, means the ball is still a ball, how does the ball acquired this kinetic energy, means does the atoms of the ball got this energy transferred by our hands? If yes, then the atoms which are in direct contact with our hands would only gain this energy and the remaining atoms on the surface of the ball, would due to the property of inertia, try to obstruct the ball from motion - so is this sort of thing happening actually or something else is happening at the atomic level? The main question is : when a thing acquires energy, what is actually happening?

    Please suggest.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Thanks for asking all these questions, @misecmisc1. I'm enjoying following this conversation. :)
  • So some questions again:
    Light is behaving both as wave and as a packet of energy called photon. So when we say packet of energy called photon, do we mean that light is behaving like matter , means like a physical packet of biscuits or cakes - meaning Newtonian physics applies to it - or there is some different sense of this packet of energy, which is called photon?
    It means that light is quantized in little energy packets. The minimum energy of light that can get absorbed by matter is a photon. They dont have mass (but momentum). So they cannot be compared to something like matter balls.

    Since light is electromagnetic radiation , so whenever there is any form of light will it still have both the electric fields and magnetic fields associated with it? If yes, then why we do not feel this electric field and magnetic field in sunlight or light of bulb?
    There is no electromagnetic radiaton without _both_ fields. The change of one of the fields induces the other field. If one field stops changing the other field stops too.
    You actually feel the fields. Put your arm into sunlight and everything that you feel is created by the interation of the electromagneticfield with your body. The warmth you feel is the field shaking the atoms in your body generating heat.

    When one thing strikes another thing e.g. a cup striking a plate, so this is ok to understand that the kinetic energy gets converted into sound energy. So how is this transformation to sound energy happening - my guess is the air molecules between the touching surfaces of the two things gets the energy transferred, so these energy gained air molecules through waves hit our ears to realize sound in our brain - is this ok? But a question here, when the two surfaces touch each other, the air between their surfaces is removed, so how come the air molecules get this kinetic energy transferred - or is the surrounding air molecules which acquires this energy?
    The impact of the object makes them wobble. That wobbling of the surfaces of the objects wobbles the air surround the objects. This is transfered to your ear making your eardrum wobble. In music instruments with strings the movement of the strings is transfered to the air around it.

    Just now a thought came to my mind - a question which may be too silly to ask, but still asking - when we throw a ball, the ball moves in air - it is ok to understand that we have applied external force and so the ball acquired kinetic energy and so the ball moves in air - now the question is what has actually happened, means the ball is still a ball, how does the ball acquired this kinetic energy, means does the atoms of the ball got this energy transferred by our hands? If yes, then the atoms which are in direct contact with our hands would only gain this energy and the remaining atoms on the surface of the ball, would due to the property of inertia, try to obstruct the ball from motion - so is this sort of thing happening actually or something else is happening at the atomic level? The main question is : when a thing acquires energy, what is actually happening?
    When the ball lies in your hand it the atoms of your hand and the atoms of the ball actually doesnt touch. They keep a distance because of the electromagnetic forces the atoms feel from another. Now your hand begins to move and with it the ball moves too because the atoms of your hand push the atoms of the ball trough this electromagnetic forces away. This push begins with the atoms directly above your hand they transfer it to the atoms lying around them and it continues until all the atoms of the ball are in movement.

    Inertia means the atoms doesnt want to change their movement. So you have to apply force to change their movement. This force is generated by your body.

    And again, i like your questions. They are very good questions. :)






  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    @ihepf: Thanks for these brilliant explanations :clap:

    So, what i get from your explanations is : whenever there is light, there will be both electric fields and magnetic fields because light is electromagnetic radiation - is this correct?

    in sunlight, how this electromagnetic field gets created?

    you said - when we touch the ball, then the atoms of our hand do not touch the atoms of the ball because of electromagnetic forces - how does this electromagnetic field gets created here?

    Please tell. Thanks in advance.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think I'm getting one of my headaches... but don't worry, it's only a light one..... :crazy:

  • So, what i get from your explanations is : whenever there is light, there will be both electric fields and magnetic fields because light is electromagnetic radiation - is this correct?
    Correct.

    in sunlight, how this electromagnetic field gets created?
    Okay here they come... the questions i cant answer properly because i dont know ;).

    The source of the sunlight is obviously the sun. But why does the sun emit electromagnetic radiaton?

    This is what i know:

    The sun is has a very high mass. Because of the gravitational force there is a high pressure in the core of the sun. This pressure is high enough for nuclear fusion. The nuclear fusion is the motor of the sun, the fuel of the fusion process is hydrogen (1 proton) which is fused to helium (2 protons).

    In this process of fusion, photons (gamma rays) are emitted. One mechanism that creates photons in this process is called positron electron annihilation. A positron is the antiparticle of the electron, everything the same but positive charge. When they hit they annihilate each other and create two photons.

    image

    These photons now fly from atom to atom getting absorbed and emitted over and over again. In this chain they slowly lose their energy until the gammarays are visible light photons. The time it takes for a photon to get from the core to the surface of the sun is ca. 50.000 years. That is because the sun is very dense and there are lot of particles the photons have to pass.

    There are probably more photon creating processes like heat excited atoms that emit photons, but all energy comes from the nuclear fusion.

    you said - when we touch the ball, then the atoms of our hand do not touch the atoms of the ball because of electromagnetic forces - how does this electromagnetic field gets created here?
    The atoms are made of positive and negative charges. The core of the atom is positive because of the protons. The shell of the atom is negative because of the electrons. These two charges is where the electric field of the atoms comes from. The negative shells of the atoms repell each other.

    image

    I found a very good documentary about light. Its BBCs Light Fantastic documentary. It has 4 episodes and explains everything about light.

    Episode 1 is "Let there be light". It says a lot about light in connection with religion.


  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    @ihepf: Thanks again :clap:

    So when the energy is transferred to the ball through our hands, what actually is happening - is it that the electrons of the atoms acquire this energy, or the nucleus acquires this energy? When an object gets energy, what happens at atomic level? Please suggest.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @ihepf / all : One more query just came to my mind, so asking, may be a silly question but still asking: Color is due to different wavelengths of light - is this correct? i think it is correct as visible light is having a range of frequencies or wavelengths, which our eyes perceive to make that light visible. please suggest if my thinking is correct.

    How do colors arise in objects - means for example - rose is red - what is that thing in rose which gives it a red color, grass is green - what is that thing in grass which gives it a green color? How do we perceive red color in rose and green color in grass?

    May be these are idiotic questions, but came to my mind, so asking. Please suggest.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    did you know the sun has its own gravity?

    i never thought of that before now....

    how basically dumb am I....?!
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited March 2012
    did you know the sun has its own gravity?

    i never thought of that before now....

    how basically dumb am I....?!
    If you are bing serious about this comment, then you are not dumb, you just have never been taught such a thing. Then again it could be another attempt at humour which has flown over my head... Everything has gravity which has mass, even you! Although it is a very weak force, for example, the entire earths gravity is beaten by a little magnet holding a paper clip using magetism.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No, really....
    I just never thought of a huge ball of flaming gas as having gravity....A candle flame goes straight up, it doesn't bend to the force of gravity which in actual fact is quite weak... you can attract a pin off the floor with a weak magnet.... so as it doesn't work on a candle flame on earth, it never occurred to me that it would work on a huge burning ball of gas in space.....
  • There is great debate to why gravity is such a weak force in physics, some suggest that we have the waste of another universes gravity which is far less than what the other univrse has. It is complex and I wish I had the time and energy to explain. But anything with mass has gravity, even dust.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    did you know the sun has its own gravity?
    actually it has been years now, when i left studying physics, so it seems that i have forgotten most of the concepts now :banghead:

    My guess as to what is happening for your query- sun, even though a huge ball of gas, has mass because of its density. so because of the huge mass of sun, it has gravity and because of this gravitational force, planets revolve around the sun. If this is wrong, then anybody please rectify it.
    There is great debate to why gravity is such a weak force in physics, some suggest that we have the waste of another universes gravity which is far less than what the other univrse has.
    My guess as to why gravity can be considered a weak force - if we go to the level of atoms, then the mass drops down by much and the distance between two masses like two nucleus or two electrons grows by much, so since gravitational force is directly proportional to masses and inversely proportional to square of the distance between the objects, so at atomic level gravity becomes a weak force. If this is wrong, then anybody please rectify it.

  • So when the energy is transferred to the ball through our hands, what actually is happening - is it that the electrons of the atoms acquire this energy, or the nucleus acquires this energy? When an object gets energy, what happens at atomic level? Please suggest.
    The kinetic energy is in both because both have mass. The velocity of the atom changes, which means core and electron shell change its velocity.

    One more query just came to my mind, so asking, may be a silly question but still asking: Color is due to different wavelengths of light - is this correct? i think it is correct as visible light is having a range of frequencies or wavelengths, which our eyes perceive to make that light visible. please suggest if my thinking is correct.
    Physics has no color. Color (Qualia) is made by consciousness. The brain maps colors to the different wavelengths, so you are right. The part of the electromagnetic spectrum that the human eye can see is very narrow. For example insects can see ultraviolet.

    How do colors arise in objects - means for example - rose is red - what is that thing in rose which gives it a red color, grass is green - what is that thing in grass which gives it a green color? How do we perceive red color in rose and green color in grass?
    There are different processes which can color an object. One would be:

    White light consists of all wavelengths (all colors). This light hits a surface which only reflects one special wavelength. If only red gets reflected the surface is red.

    The green color of plants is due to the chlorophylle molecules. Chlorophyll absorbs blue but not green, so the green light gets back to your eye.

    Imagine a surface with holes of the same size (surface of an object). Now you have a glass full of spheres of different sizes (white light). You take a handful and throw the spheres against the wall. Only the spheres with the right size go trough, the rest bounces back.
    did you know the sun has its own gravity?

    i never thought of that before now....

    how basically dumb am I....?!
    That gravity is the reason the earth goes around the sun. Are u dumb because you dont know? Probably not. If you never heard it would be unlikely to figure it out yourself without any previous knowledge. Mankind needed Newton to figure out gravity.

    A candle flame goes straight up, it doesn't bend to the force of gravity which in actual fact is quite weak
    The flame consists of atoms which do feel gravity. And the atoms attract other atoms trough their own gravitational force. As you said, its so weak you dont see it.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited March 2012

    So when the energy is transferred to the ball through our hands, what actually is happening - is it that the electrons of the atoms acquire this energy, or the nucleus acquires this energy? When an object gets energy, what happens at atomic level? Please suggest.
    The kinetic energy is in both because both have mass. The velocity of the atom changes, which means core and electron shell change its velocity.

    @ihepf: Thanks for your explanations :thumbsup:

    atom is a physical quantity - meaning it has matter or mass.

    force/energy is not a physical quantity in the sense it does not has matter.

    how does a matter is getting affected by a thing which is not matter - means in vaccuum also i think all these things hold that a ball when given some external force moves, so we say the ball acquired kinetic energy, so is that the atom acquires this kinetic energy - making it unstable as it has more energy than its normal state potential energy - so to make itself stable again, the atom moves to loose this energy - is something like this happening? if yes, then how does the atom know that by movement its energy will get reduced - moreover how this direction of movement is decided - means if horizontal force is applied, how does the atom knows it need to move in horizontal direction and not in upward direction (because i think from an atom's point of view, it has just got some energy and will not know how that energy is acquired)? Please suggest.

    the above may be stupid questions, but you can consider me to be an idiot who does not understand such basic things in physics. So please help me to understand these things. Thanks in advance.

  • how does a matter is getting affected by a thing which is not matter - means in vaccuum also i think all these things hold that a ball when given some external force moves, so we say the ball acquired kinetic energy, so is that the atom acquires this kinetic energy - making it unstable as it has more energy than its normal state potential energy - so to make itself stable again, the atom moves to loose this energy - is something like this happening?
    No, that would be a wrong conception. It doesnt move to reduce the energy it got before, the energy is _in_ the movement. The movement itself contains the kinetic energy of the atom. There was some force pushing on the atom and trough this force it started moving.

    The formula for kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v^2
    velocity squared times mass times 1/2.

    The kinetic energy of the movement is in addition to the energy that is saved in the atom due to the states of the electrons. The whole system with all the electrons in different states and the nucleaus is moving in one direction.

    moreover how this direction of movement is decided - means if horizontal force is applied, how does the atom knows it need to move in horizontal direction and not in upward direction (because i think from an atom's point of view, it has just got some energy and will not know how that energy is acquired)?
    It does not get only energy, it gets energy plus direction. Forces are vectorial quantities. They have value and direction.

    Classical the electrons of the atoms feel the field of the electrons in the other atom and because of this start to move.

    Non-classical the electrons interchange photons and trough this process they feel the force. In QED the elementary forces are described by exchange particles. The photon is the exchange particle of the electromagnetic force. But i cant say much about this.


  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks for your reply :thumbsup:

    Coming back to colours, 2 queries came to my mind -
    1. in electromagnetic spectrum, we have different frequencies or different wavelengths for different components VIBGYOR of white light - so in actuality in this electromagnetic spectrum, does the red light has any 'redness' in it? it can be a silly question, but somehow i think something is missing - light is electromagnetic field, so composed of electric and magnetic fields, both these fields are invisible, so their combination will also be invisible as they are just energies, so how can an invisible thing have any 'redness' or 'greenness' in it? Please correct if anything is wrong anywhere in above and please explain is colour in reality existing or not - if not, then how come something is red and something is green , as these are different colours - so just changing of wavelength or frequency is creating what thing that we percieve as so different colours?

    2. in our computers, we have softwares of paint - which allows us to draw object and paint them with colours - so what are these colours now - as far as i remember what i have read is the smallest entity on a computer screen is a pixel - then it is assigned colour through the software and the running of the software program generates the desired object with colours in it - so what is now the things which we observe as colour in our computer screens- as the same box can be filled with red, green, blue etc - but since it is not an object, so some wavelengths of light getting absorbed and other wavelengths getting reflected from it, this phenomenon does not seem to occur here. So what is the process through which colours are observed in a computer screen.

    The above may be idiotic questions, and you can consider me to be an idiot to not understand these :banghead: but please help me to understand these as usual throughout this post ;) Thanks in advance.
  • edited March 2012
    @ihepf: Thanks for your reply :thumbsup:

    Coming back to colours, 2 queries came to my mind -
    1. in electromagnetic spectrum, we have different frequencies or different wavelengths for different components VIBGYOR of white light - so in actuality in this electromagnetic spectrum, does the red light has any 'redness' in it? it can be a silly question, but somehow i think something is missing - light is electromagnetic field, so composed of electric and magnetic fields, both these fields are invisible, so their combination will also be invisible as they are just energies, so how can an invisible thing have any 'redness' or 'greenness' in it? Please correct if anything is wrong anywhere in above and please explain is colour in reality existing or not - if not, then how come something is red and something is green , as these are different colours - so just changing of wavelength or frequency is creating what thing that we percieve as so different colours?
    Your observation is correct, something is missing. Wavelengths dont have colours, its the brain or consciousness (or whatever you believe creates sensations) that makes color sensations out of signals that come from your eye. You can describe the whole signal transmission from the object to the visual center by physics but thats all. Colour sensations are not describeable by physics.

    If you are interested in this philosophical topic i would suggest googling Qualia. Thats a term that describes the subjective experience of something ( for example colours). I think in buddhism that would be the vedana or sanna group in the 5 skandhas. Maybe someone who knows in detail could comment on this.

    2. in our computers, we have softwares of paint - which allows us to draw object and paint them with colours - so what are these colours now - as far as i remember what i have read is the smallest entity on a computer screen is a pixel - then it is assigned colour through the software and the running of the software program generates the desired object with colours in it - so what is now the things which we observe as colour in our computer screens- as the same box can be filled with red, green, blue etc - but since it is not an object, so some wavelengths of light getting absorbed and other wavelengths getting reflected from it, this phenomenon does not seem to occur here. So what is the process through which colours are observed in a computer screen.
    There are different methods to create colors on the screen depending on the model of the monitor.

    In the old type of monitors which worked with a cathod ray tube, a beam of electrons was focused on the screen which had red green and blue dots on it. Depending on the position of the beam a different colour was created on the screen. The electrons in the beam excite the colour molecules in the colour dots which then emit photons.

    image

    You probably have a LCD monitor. That one works with liquid crystals which can be oriented under voltage. Trough this orientation the optical permeability can be regulated.

    image

    Your paint software gives commands to your windows, windows gives commands to your hardware which controls the liquid crystals in the monitor. When you paint a pixel red in paint the permeability of the pixel in the monitor is high for red and low for green and blue.




  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    @ihepf: Thanks for your brilliant explanations :clap:
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    @ihepf/all: 2 queries came to my mind, so asking them:
    1. Coming back to two surfaces touching each-other, so on atomic level, the electron orbits of the outermost atoms of the two surfaces have a force of repulsion between them as two similar charges repel eachother. So on atomic level, the two surfaces never really touch each other. If this is the case, then how come we are getting the sensation of touch when our hands or our body is touching some external object like floor, computer etc? How do we feel the sensation of touch like something is hot or cold, rough or smooth etc?

    2. when we smell a rose, we smell a fragnance in rose. So what is this fragnance? means how does this smelling process occur? does the fragnance is in the rose, in the air between rose and our nose? if it is in air, then can fragnance be experienced in vaccuum by us?

    Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    @misecmisc1, permit me to interrupt this train of thought if i may, to ask you.....

    Why and how is this conducive to your practice?

    Right now, you're experiencing difficulties digesting the practice of Buddhism, because last time you posted in the thread about your argument with your wife, it was clear that while you are attempting to absorb the theory in bite-sized portions, the implementation of that theory is proving a challenge.

    So I repeat my question:
    Why is this important, when you have more pressing matters to consider?
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited March 2012
    @misecmisc1, permit me to interrupt this train of thought if i may, to ask you.....

    Why and how is this conducive to your practice?

    Right now, you're experiencing difficulties digesting the practice of Buddhism, because last time you posted in the thread about your argument with your wife, it was clear that while you are attempting to absorb the theory in bite-sized portions, the implementation of that theory is proving a challenge.

    So I repeat my question:
    Why is this important, when you have more pressing matters to consider?
    @federica: truely speaking i dont know. these days actually left thinking what i need to do, what is important for me etc. just doing my daily duties - going to work, playing with my daughter, doing what my wife wants, trying to sit in meditation daily etc. but somehow left this thought what i want to do or what i want to be in future. whatever time i am getting somewhat free, trying to see what is the actual reality from theoretical point of view as i dont know if i will ever be able to have its direct experience because of no concentration in my meditation.

    Got a thought from quantum physics, there is no continuity in time - it is just separate moments - there is now, 1 sec later another now, 1 sec later another now and so on it goes. each now is complete and different from others, so trying to live in now.

    dont know whether it is right or wrong, or whether i will be able to live in now, but trying to live in now. so is the above question important to me - dont know, whether any thing is important to me - dont know.

    may be i am a too idiotic person to know anything.

  • 1. Coming back to two surfaces touching each-other, so on atomic level, the electron orbits of the outermost atoms of the two surfaces have a force of repulsion between them as two similar charges repel eachother. So on atomic level, the two surfaces never really touch each other. If this is the case, then how come we are getting the sensation of touch when our hands or our body is touching some external object like floor, computer etc? How do we feel the sensation of touch like something is hot or cold, rough or smooth etc?
    .
    You feel the electromagnetic force, which pushes the atoms of your hand back. You feel that what prevents your hand from going trough the surface. The atoms of hot surfaces move around more than atoms of cold surfaces, this movement transfers to the atoms of your hand, which is then sensed by your thermoreceptors. Rough and smooth is just the microsopic structure of the surface which interacts via the electromagnetic force with your hand.

    2. when we smell a rose, we smell a fragnance in rose. So what is this fragnance? means how does this smelling process occur? does the fragnance is in the rose, in the air between rose and our nose? if it is in air, then can fragnance be experienced in vaccuum by us?
    The rose produces molecules which are then released on the surface of the rose. They get carried away by the wind to your nose. There they dock to your olfactory receptors. This creates a signal to your brain. Then some magic happens and you actually sense it. ;)

    image

    Funnily most of the images you find with google is someone smelling a rose. Seems to be a stereotype for smelling.

    Somewhat Offtopic:

    This is a very nice java simulation of a fluid that is fun to play around with. Found it today:

    http://grantkot.com/MPM/Liquid.html
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    @ihepf: Thanks for your replies :clap:
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