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Where electrical brain stimulation and Buddhism meets.

I found an interesting article. What would you do if you could put on a cap and have instant zen. A mind free of doubts, and fears. Just being at peace. You could meditate much easier. Make progress much faster in your meditations. Not only that you could give others that experience. You could give non Buddhists a glimpse at what meditation is like. I believe this is the future of meditation.

How electrical brain stimulation can change the way we think
http://theweek.com/article/index/226196/how-electrical-brain-stimulation-can-change-the-way-we-think/1

Quotes from the article.

"My brain without self-doubt was a revelation. There was suddenly this incredible silence in my head; I've experienced something close to it during two-hour Iyengar yoga classes, or at the end of a 10k, but the fragile peace in my head would be shattered almost the second I set foot outside the calm of the studio. I had certainly never experienced instant Zen in the frustrating middle of something I was terrible at."

"After trying it myself, I have different questions. To make you understand, I am going to tell you how it felt. The experience wasn't simply about the easy pleasure of undeserved expertise. For me, it was a near-spiritual experience. When a nice neuroscientist named Michael Weisend put the electrodes on me, what defined the experience was not feeling smarter or learning faster: The thing that made the earth drop out from under my feet was that for the first time in my life, everything in my head finally shut up."

For those of you that say we don't need that all we need to do is meditation. Well I could view this as a training tool for young mediators.

So great, once cold fusion comes out everyone can afford one of these, and everyone can think clearer and meditate better.
After trying it myself, I have different questions. To make you understand, I am going to tell you how it felt. The experience wasn't simply about the easy pleasure of undeserved expertise. For me, it was a near-spiritual experience. When a nice neuroscientist named Michael Weisend put the electrodes on me, what defined the experience was not feeling smarter or learning faster: The thing that made the earth drop out from under my feet was that for the first time in my life, everything in my head finally shut up.
Peace!

Comments

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    For those of you that say we don't need that all we need to do is meditation. Well I could view this as a training tool for young mediators.
    This is how I see it, too. It shouldn't be a lazy-man's way to meditation, but a glimpse of what can be achieved via practice.

    You're fortunate to have had this experience. I imagine that most people charge a pretty penny for that service. NDE researchers, btw, have found that stimulation to the right temporal lobe creates NDE-type experiences and other spiritual experiences. Electric brain stim is cool. Being able to achieve those results on your own is even cooler. Electric brain stim can give us a new window on human potential.

    I learned how to meditate in a doctor's office, via biofeedback. My first experience, and it was extraordinary! Very inspiring, and it's what got me into a regular meditation practice. It sounds like you're on the right track, best wishes! Feel free to share more about this. :)

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Really interesting article. I wonder how alike this experience is to the calm experienced through meditation.

    One issue I can see is that its completely divorced from any kind of morality. Buddhism isn't just about calming our inner demons it also teaches karma and how our actions lead to certain outcomes. So what would it mean if you could strap on one of these caps, go out and commit all kinds of negativity but not feel any of the consequent disturbing emotions from them?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Very good point, @person. But I think in order for that scenario to happen, the cap-wearer would have to already be a sociopathic person. Most cap-wearers aren't. Still, it's a good argument in favor of the do-it-yourself complete-Buddhist-package approach, vs. the easy way out. I think wearing the cap is more of a sneak-preview of what meditation practice can provide, rather than something people would do as a regular thing. They're not selling the caps at the drugstore, you probably either need health insurance and medical need to get to the neuroscientist, or a lot of personal cash to pay for a visit to the specialist.

    Cool topic.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    very interesting article indeed

    if it was easy, everyone should try it for sure.

    thanks for sharing!
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Very good point, @person. But I think in order for that scenario to happen, the cap-wearer would have to already be a sociopathic person. Most cap-wearers aren't. Still, it's a good argument in favor of the do-it-yourself complete-Buddhist-package approach, vs. the easy way out. I think wearing the cap is more of a sneak-preview of what meditation practice can provide, rather than something people would do as a regular thing. They're not selling the caps at the drugstore, you probably either need health insurance and medical need to get to the neuroscientist, or a lot of personal cash to pay for a visit to the specialist.

    Cool topic.
    Or a simpler example of someone screwing people over to make money for themselves then wearing the cap to remove any negative feeling from that.

    They may be inaccesable now but if they are effective it won't be long before they could be more widely available, particularly for those with wealth.
  • edited April 2012
    @person I think what you said is crazy. It's a tool that should be used properly just like any tool. If you use good for evil then you get negative karma. But it's a tool just like a knife can be used for good or bad. Or almost any other tool for that matter. Just because someone is going to go out and kill someone with a knife does not mean we should not use knifes.

    BTW Dakini it was not me specifically that had that experience. I am just relating the article.

    Peace!
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Or a simpler example of someone screwing people over to make money for themselves then wearing the cap to remove any negative feeling from that.
    Eww, you have a twisted mind. But it's true, almost anything can be used for great good, or for bad. Humans are funny that way. You're scaring me. It's something someone could make a sci-fi crime film about.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    @person I think what you said is crazy. It's a tool that should be used properly just like any tool. If you use good for evil then you get negative karma. But it's a tool just like a knife can be used for good or bad. Or almost any other tool for that matter. Just because someone is going to go out and kill someone with a knife does not mean we should not use knifes.

    I wasn't saying that it couldn't or shouldn't be used. Just that Buddhism teaches about more than calming the mind and removing our negative dialog. If that is all it is used for divorced from morality then it wouldn't be necessarily be a positive thing. Its not that hard for me to imagine a wealthy person who gets his wealth through ill gotten means getting one of these to relieve his distress.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Or a simpler example of someone screwing people over to make money for themselves then wearing the cap to remove any negative feeling from that.
    Eww, you have a twisted mind. But it's true, almost anything can be used for great good, or for bad. Humans are funny that way. You're scaring me. It's something someone could make a sci-fi crime film about.

    Is that twisted? IDK maybe it is. People are always looking for a quick fix to address any unease they may have without having to actually alter their behavior. Would this be any different?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I mean specifically the part about someone screwing people over (or worse: committing a crime) and using the cap to remove any guilt. That's creepy. Not inconceivable, but just a little disturbing. But the world is full of disturbing stuff, so.....
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I mean specifically the part about someone screwing people over (or worse: committing a crime) and using the cap to remove any guilt. That's creepy. Not inconceivable, but just a little disturbing. But the world is full of disturbing stuff, so.....
    Yeah, I guess that is a bit of an extreme example to make a point. But think about wall street traders, in their off time the stereotype is that they engage in coke and hookers. I can envision them using one of these instead.

    Maybe my mind is dark that it would go there right away. I guess I'm just trying to make a point about the importance of ethics in Buddhism.

    Maybe by removing the negative chatter in ones mind one's craving or anger would also be removed making the negative actions that arise from them less likely. Pure speculation.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran


    Yeah, I guess that is a bit of an extreme example to make a point. But think about wall street traders, in their off time the stereotype is that they engage in coke and hookers. I can envision them using one of these instead.
    Really? Coke and hookers? Where did you hear that?

    This is exactly the scenario that came to mind when I read your example--Madoff, ha! But do you think such people even have enough of a conscience that they'd feel the need for a clear-the-conscience cap?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran


    Yeah, I guess that is a bit of an extreme example to make a point. But think about wall street traders, in their off time the stereotype is that they engage in coke and hookers. I can envision them using one of these instead.
    Really? Coke and hookers? Where did you hear that?

    This is exactly the scenario that came to mind when I read your example--Madoff, ha! But do you think such people even have enough of a conscience that they'd feel the need for a clear-the-conscience cap?

    Its just something portrayed in news documentaries on traders and in the popular media. I don't know that they'd need their conscience cleared exactly, more that they don't feel happy inside thus they turn to coke and hookers.
  • edited April 2012
    Just like any tool, the overall benefits will outweigh the risks.

    Peace!
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012

    Its just something portrayed in news documentaries on traders and in the popular media. I don't know that they'd need their conscience cleared exactly, more that they don't feel happy inside thus they turn to coke and hookers.
    Thank heaven I ignore the popular media.
    Just like any tool, the overall benefits will outweigh the risks.
    Indeed. It could usher in a new era of contented, stress-free people. Wouldn't that be something!

  • @person what do you think of my last comment?

    Peace!
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited April 2012
    @person what do you think of my last comment?

    Peace!
    Just like any tool, the overall benefits will outweigh the risks.

    Peace!
    A tool is neutral. What determines if its positive or negative is the intent behind its use. So the 'zen hat' is only good or bad depending upon how it is used.

    Overall I feel that if it is used outside of the notions of ethics or developing wisdom or compassion for that matter, it may not be much different from any other type of distraction from our suffering and not a real cure. I really have no idea, just voicing a concern.
  • The guy that tried the device made it seem like it's better than some yoga he was doing.

    Peace!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    If you use good for evil then you get negative karma. !
    No you don't!! who has scant understanding of karma, then, hmm?? :rolleyes:
    Just like any tool, the overall benefits will outweigh the risks.
    Care to share that notion with Oppenheimer?
    The guy that tried the device made it seem like it's better than some yoga he was doing.
    Shortcuts do not achieve the deeper benefits of doing things the longer, established and proven way. Why try to exploit a possibility when the definite is already working perfectly well....?
  • Just like any tool, the overall benefits will outweigh the risks.
    Care to share that notion with Oppenheimer?
    The guy that tried the device made it seem like it's better than some yoga he was doing.
    Shortcuts do not achieve the deeper benefits of doing things the longer, established and proven way. Why try to exploit a possibility when the definite is already working perfectly well....?
    It would not be a replacement for standards in meditation but training wheels or a glimpse of what is possible.

    As far as Oppenheimer is concerned. Certainly a nuclear bomb can be used for good in some circumstances like blowing up an asteroid or something like that. You can also get nuclear power. I think it should be possible to do that in a way that nothing and nobody gets hurt doing. It may take some trail and error but. It should also be possible to convert all that nuclear waste into benign material.

    Peace!
  • Dakini agrees with me federica. That if you use good for evil you do get negative karma. That seems pretty simple that if you do something evil you get negative karma.

    Peace!
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    This is how I see it, too. It shouldn't be a lazy-man's way to meditation, but a glimpse of what can be achieved via practice.
    The thread is starting to go in circles, now. Yoga is different from meditation anyway, but the benefits of discipline and insights one gains from meditation (in addition to the sense of peace, or "calm abiding") would in the end be more valuable than what the cap experience would provide.

    When you commit a harmful, egoic act, in beginners' terms (A-P is a beginner, after all), you do rack up "negative karma", i.e. the seeds of your actions will later ripen and come back to haunt you.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2012
    When you commit a harmful, egoic act, in beginners' terms (A-P is a beginner, after all), you do rack up "negative karma",

    How can you rack up negative karma when karma means action??
    you rack up negative vipaka. You enact karma negatively or positively.. kamma means volitional action.....
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    When you commit a harmful, egoic act, in beginners' terms (A-P is a beginner, after all), you do rack up "negative karma",

    How can you rack up negative karma when karma means action??
    you rack up negative vipaka. You enact karma negatively or positively.. kamma means volitional action.....
    Notice I qualified the statement with: "In beginners' terms". This issue of beginnner terminology in relation to karma came up on another thread recently. Seeing as how this is a forum for newbies, people were ok with using this shorthand in responding to beginners' questions. I also clarified for the OP what "negative karma" really means: "the seeds of your actions [karma] will later ripen and come back to haunt you." (the part of the sentence you cut off when quoting)

  • ginabginab Veteran
    This sounds like the device I need. Where can I sign up? :D
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    I think this qualifys under the 4th precept.

    Avoid intoxicants...

    /Victor
  • edited April 2012
    I think this qualifys under the 4th precept.

    Avoid intoxicants...

    /Victor
    The Buddha said that as to avoid a fogged or delusional mind. This device seems to do the opposite, by clearing the mind.

    Peace!

  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Thank you for sharing!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    ....Seeing as how this is a forum for newbies, people were ok with using this shorthand in responding to beginners' questions. I also clarified for the OP what "negative karma" really means: "the seeds of your actions [karma] will later ripen and come back to haunt you." (the part of the sentence you cut off when quoting)

    If I were a newbie I really wouldn't know what the hell you meant by that.
    An awful lot of established Buddhists can't get their head round Karma either, so what hope for a newbie...?
    It pays to keep it extremely simple, simpler even, than 'the seeds of your actions'...
    If we're going to teach newbies, let's keep it simple and do it right, from the beginning...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think this qualifys under the 4th precept.

    Avoid intoxicants...

    /Victor
    The Buddha said that as to avoid a fogged or delusional mind. This device seems to do the opposite, by clearing the mind.

    Peace!

    Yes, but when you take it off, you still have a delusional mind. you have done nothing, you've just exchanged one delusional mind for another....
    The point the Buddha made is that of Right Effort, not right, let's use a shortcut and alter the brain mechanically".

  • I would agree in the sense that almost every time in practice/life you can refer back to the 8fold path, right effort is an important component like the other 7 are. However, the fact that the buddha was around 2,500 years ago and acheived what he did then, but in this day and age there may be shortcuts or glimpses at what can be acheived something to think about.
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    I think this qualifys under the 4th precept.

    Avoid intoxicants...

    /Victor
    The Buddha said that as to avoid a fogged or delusional mind. This device seems to do the opposite, by clearing the mind.

    Peace!

    Yeah. When I drink Glendronach my mind seems pretty 'clear' to me too...

    I am suspicious and pretty sure no means of external stimulation can replace cultivation.

    If it seems to do then somebody is looking in the wrong place.

    /Victor


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