Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register
Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

There is just 'one' thing I still cant understand about Buddhist path to Enlightenment..

zenmystezenmyste Veteran
edited May 2012 in Buddhism Basics
I dont seem to understand why Buddhists, (especially MONKS) havent achieved Awakening by following Buddhas Path.
I have spoke to many Teachers, Masters, Practitioners and Lay people (from all over the world) and I havent found one person who is Awaken or Enlightened by following the path (of course we all agree with buddha and follow his teachings but that 'ache feeling' is still within us)..

(Just like when Prince Siddartha left home because he had this 'aching pain in his heart', he went searching for Enlightenment) And his found it and then shared his teachings... BUT..

But if the 8 fold path is the way to Enlightenment, then why arnt 'all' the monks Enlightened? Ive been lucky enough to meet many monks and i always asked the same question. 'Have you achieved the goal of Enlightenment? and the answer is always NO!

I dont want to sound like a troll..
Im just that this question keeps bugging me every now and again..

Does anyone have any answers to this pls?
«134

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I think it's an interesting question.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    Perhaps, for your monks, enlightenment is not a goal.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    I first met Ajahn Sumedho at the Centre for Higher Tibetan Studies in Switzerland in the spring of 1979. He had just finished giving a ten-day course in the mountains near Berne, and was invited to spend a couple of days at the Centre by its Abbot, Geshe Rabten.

    One person who attended Bhikkhu Sumedho's course liked to be around him because 'he is just such a nice guy'. It was heartening for me to see a monk who kept strictly the rules of discipline, the Vinaya, yet maintained a softness and naturalness behind his observance of them.

    To illustrate Sumedho's resoluteness about the importance of practice and meditation: While we were both walking around the hillside near the Centre, overlooking the French and Swiss Alps with Lake Geneva below, he asked me whether I had a desire to return to India. I answered that I would go if it were for the purpose of improving my Tibetan. I could then return to the West and act as an interpreter for a Tibetan master or work as a translator of Tibetan texts. His only response to that was: 'Why don't you just get enlightened?'
    Ajahn Sumedho interviewed
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Because the goal is endless and already complete.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    ..there is no way you could fail in meditation. It is not about failure, otherwise even meditation becomes just another way for us to prove ourselves. "I can't do it now. If I practise hard, I will become a good meditator and I will become enlightened, hopefully..." And then the doubt comes: "But I don't think I could ever get enlightened. Who is enlightened?"

    People like to check us all out to see if Ajahn Sumedho is enlightened or whether Ajahn Viradhammo is, or whether we have reached some kind of advanced level. Or are we just blokes who haven't quite made it? But there is a different way of looking and thinking which is the opposite of seeing ourselves in terms of being somebody who has to do something to become somebody who is better than he or she is right now. That is the worldly way of thinking. That's what people like to hear isn't it: "I had all kinds of problems and was a very miserable, unhappy man and then practising meditation I saw the light and now I'm happy and fulfilled." From the worldly conditioned attitude, "I am this person, I am this personality, I am Ajahn Sumedho... I am all kinds of things... I should be and I shouldn't be." But the aim of Buddhist meditation is about changing one's attitude by using the reflective or intuitive function of the mind.
    - Luang Por Sumedho

    Full teaching HERE
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    Because the goal is endless and already complete.

    Elaborate please!
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Because the goal is endless and already complete.
    No it's not! :p
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Because the goal is endless and already complete.
    Taiyaki, that's a very obtuse statement which I personally don't find very meaningful. Perhaps you can elaborate.

  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    Yes agreed, more practice needed, Koala :p:)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If there are things you don't understand about enlightenment, then how can you say you have never met an enlightened person? Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    The essence is emptiness. Everything is already empty of inherent existence thus it can manifest as impermanent appearances of different streams of consciousness based on causes and connditions.

    Because the ground is infinite purity and infinite potentiality. Thus ignorance and wisdom is infinite.

    Everything as it is, is perfection.

    Theres an infinite capacity to think otherwise.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    If there are things you don't understand about enlightenment, then how can you say you have never met an enlightened person? Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
    Because they wouldn't realize they were enlightened, or because they would be dishonest?

  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
    What makes you think that?
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    If there are things you don't understand about enlightenment, then how can you say you have never met an enlightened person? Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
    Because they wouldn't realize they were enlightened, or because they would be dishonest?

    GREAT QUESTION!
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    If you take the traditional explanation of enlightenment and what it takes to achieve, then multiple lives needs to be taken into consideration and the considerable amount of time and effort needed to gain enlightenment.

    Enlightenment can kind of be divided into two aspects. Small enlightenment which realizes emptiness, which I think is what we usually mean when we talk about enlightenment, and the full enlightenment of a Buddha. I suspect that when a master is asked they can easily say that they are not enlightened because they are not a Buddha.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Who can claim enlightenment?

    We are just nominal projections onto processes. There is no thing that can claim enlightenment. When in fact all things are enlightened by the fact that they are impermanent processes.

    So no enlightened being would be able to be considered enlightened because it requires a being by our defintion to be enlightened.

    The movement of the wind needs no affirmation.
  • I_AM_THATI_AM_THAT Veteran
    " Have you achieved the goal of Enlightenment? " In my opinion enlightenment is not something that is achieved. We already are; delusion keeps us from knowing it. Anybody that claims that they are enlightened are still living in the delusion of EGO. If you are truly enlightened, you wont need to broadcast it. That's my opinion...
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If there are things you don't understand about enlightenment, then how can you say you have never met an enlightened person? Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
    Because they wouldn't realize they were enlightened, or because they would be dishonest?

    Chapter 9 of the Diamond sutra speaks to this. Love the diamond sutra, a good read! :)
    Buddha then asked, "What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say 'I have entered the stream'?"

    "No, Buddha", Subhuti replied. "A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream."

    Buddha continued, "Does a disciple who is subject to only one more rebirth say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honors and rewards of a Once-to-be-reborn.'?"

    "No, Lord. 'Once-to-be-reborn' is only a name. There is no passing away, or coming into, existence. Only one who realizes this can really be called a disciple."

    "Subhuti, does a venerable One who will never more be reborn as a mortal say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honor and rewards of a Non-returner.'?"

    "No, Perfectly Enlightened One. A 'Non-returner' is merely a name. There is actually no one returning and no one not-returning."

    "Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"

    "No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."

    Subhuti then said, "Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions."
    The Heart Sutra also speaks to this a bit
    all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
    they do not appear or disappear,
    are not tainted or pure,
    do not increase or decrease.
    Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
    perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
    No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
    no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
    no object of mind;
    no realm of eyes
    and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness.
    No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
    and so forth until no old age and death
    and also no extinction of them.
    No suffering, no origination,
    no stopping, no path, no cognition,
    also no attainment with nothing to attain.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    I suspect that when a master is asked they can easily say that they are not enlightened because they are not a Buddha.
    A buddha is just a name for someone who is awake. Nothign more
    If there are things you don't understand about enlightenment, then how can you say you have never met an enlightened person? Even if you did ask an enlightened person "have you attained enlightenment", I think there is still a pretty good chance they would say no. :)
    Because they wouldn't realize they were enlightened, or because they would be dishonest?

    Chapter 9 of the Diamond sutra speaks to this. Love the diamond sutra, a good read! :)
    Buddha then asked, "What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say 'I have entered the stream'?"

    "No, Buddha", Subhuti replied. "A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream."

    .
    Why call Siddartha, Buddha then? Why didnt he just tell everyone to call him by his real name?
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    " Have you achieved the goal of Enlightenment? " In my opinion enlightenment is not something that is achieved. We already are; delusion keeps us from knowing it..
    losing the delusions and be free from suffering is called enlightenment.
    this is actually something that happen to a person.
    perhaps you have a different definition of the word enlightenment?
  • EnsoEnso
    edited May 2012
    @zenmyste As I understand it, admitting to full awakening/enlightenment is not something most enlightened people would do. It stinks of egotism and elitism (I am holier than thou BS - "I have the power!!" - you are delusional, while I am awake!) and most enlightened people want to lead modest, simple, unassuming lives and do not want to be seen as enlightened, looked upon with whatever concept of enlightenment you might happen to have, with whatever expectations you might have. Think about it for a minute, if you were enlightened, with no ego delusion or anything to prove, and someone asked you if you were enlightened what would you say? What is the noble, modest and humble thing to do in that situation? Would you like to been seen as their equal or above them spiritually? The Buddha through his great compassion took on the burden of having the title the Buddha.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I suspect that when a master is asked they can easily say that they are not enlightened because they are not a Buddha.

    A buddha is just a name for someone who is awake. Nothign more
    So when you ask why no one else is enlightened, are you asking why no one else is a Buddha? The word enlightened is slippery as it can mean different things. There is an arhant, are they enlightened? There is a bodhisattva on the bhumi path, are they enlightened?

    I guess what I'm asking then is a more definite description of what you mean when you think of enlightened?
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited May 2012
    But if the 8 fold path is the way to Enlightenment, then why arnt 'all' the monks Enlightened?
    Because being on the path is not the same as having reached the end. But the point is being on it, to get us closer to the destination. It's a bit like enjoying a roadtrip.

    Also there may be many more enlightened monks than you think. Because the question "Have you achieved the goal of Enlightenment?" can also be answered with "no" because it is not 'you' who reaches enlightenment. It is the dhamma that unfolds itself into an enlightenment. It's like asking a flashlight if it has ever switched itself on to "enlighten" the place. The flashlight could say no (assuming it could talk :p ) because it can't switch itself on. But that doesn't mean that it was never "enlightened". Likewise someone can't enlighten themself; the path enlightens them. This is what no-self means.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    That certainly is an interesting question. It's like there are two Buddhas: the ascended Guru, the Supermonk who went around showing off his great enlightenment and perfection, and the starving, desperate holy man who looked down at a bowl of rice a compassionate woman gave him and said, "Oh, it's that simple. Here's the problem, and here's the solution. Anyone can do it." And then spent the rest of his life trying to tell us how easy it is.

    If you have never seen any Buddhist who lives up to your idea of what a Buddha is supposed to be, then maybe it's your idea of what a Buddha looks like that is faulty, or maybe it's the Buddhists who are faulty. I've heard both sides of the argument.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2012
    All the monks aren't enlightened because they're not even trying, they're not interested. Many monks get sent as kids, and end up living in the monasteries as servants. They're not taught the teachings of the Buddha. They only memorize prayers, but they're not taught the meaning of the words. Many monks in Thailand are only in it temporarily, because putting in a stint as a monk is expected of the men, and there's a similar situation in Sri Lanka. So they don't take the path to Enlightenment seriously, either. Of the top 10% in Tibetan monasteries, the ones who do get taught the meaning of all the texts they memorize, some still have ego issues to overcome, and may never succeed in achieving that. I heard that one of the Brit monks in the Thai Forest Tradition who passed away recently did reach arhat-hood, though. So it does happen, but it's very rare.
  • driedleafdriedleaf Veteran
    It may be because it is something too personal to reveal about yourself. There may be many risks and different factors to consider here. For example: Would you want everyone to know you won the lottery?
  • BekenzeBekenze
    What is enlightenment?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2012
    What is enlightenment?
    There was a magazine by that title. For years. Then it changed its name to EnlightenNext. I don't know if they ever figured out what Enlightenment was. They just discussed it endlessly.;)

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    You're breaking through that illusion that you're a mortal thing -- but I'm not telling you that you're an immortal creature either, because you'll start grasping at that! 'My true nature is one with the ultimate, absolute Truth. I am one with the Lord. My real nature is the Deathless, timeless eternity of bliss.' But you notice that the Buddha refrained from using poetic inspiring phrases; not that they're wrong, but because we attach to them. We would settle for that identity with the ultimate, or one with God, or the eternal bliss of the Deathless Realm, and so forth. You get very starry-eyed saying things like that. But it's much more skilful to watch that tendency to want to name or conceive what is inconceivable, to be able to tell somebody else, or describe it just to feel that you have attained something. It is more important to watch that than to follow it. Not that you haven't realised anything, either, but be that careful and that vigilant not to attach to that realisation, because if you do, of course this will just take you to despair again.

    Aj Sumedho
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Ajahn Sumedho expresses it so well, doesn't he? thanks for posting that pegembara.
    It is about what we know rather than what we can explain, and we can know what we know from experience.
  • FenixFenix Veteran
    you have to ask some Hindus. They more often I think claim in being enlightened
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    I dont seem to understand why Buddhists, (especially MONKS) havent achieved Awakening by following Buddhas Path.
    I have spoke to many Teachers, Masters, Practitioners and Lay people (from all over the world) and I havent found one person who is Awaken or Enlightened by following the path (of course we all agree with buddha and follow his teachings but that 'ache feeling' is still within us)..

    (Just like when Prince Siddartha left home because he had this 'aching pain in his heart', he went searching for Enlightenment) And his found it and then shared his teachings... BUT..

    But if the 8 fold path is the way to Enlightenment, then why arnt 'all' the monks Enlightened? Ive been lucky enough to meet many monks and i always asked the same question. 'Have you achieved the goal of Enlightenment? and the answer is always NO!

    I dont want to sound like a troll..
    Im just that this question keeps bugging me every now and again..

    Does anyone have any answers to this pls?
    Do you have the Clairvoyance of knowing others minds if not then you will be left to your assumptions. Those who attain enlightenment with exception of Buddha generally do not go around proclaiming their selves as enlightened as they let their virtues speak for them. Buddha did a 6 year solitary retreat and thus attained awakening not to mention he also spent many previous lives working for others welfare as a Bodhisattva. People attain awakening at different speeds depending on what methods they are using and if there's one thing ive learnt its that view conditioned by delusion is incapable of directly seeing the truth of phenomena so how can it rightly ascertain who is enlightened or advanced on the path ?
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited May 2012
    @zenmyste: My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: it does not matter to you if somebody else has directly experienced the unconditioned or not.

    what really matters to you is - if you have directly experienced the unconditioned or not.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    Who can claim enlightenment?

    We are just nominal projections onto processes. There is no thing that can claim enlightenment. When in fact all things are enlightened by the fact that they are impermanent processes.

    So no enlightened being would be able to be considered enlightened because it requires a being by our defintion to be enlightened.

    The movement of the wind needs no affirmation.
    Have you been reading too much, @taiyaki? :)
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Who can claim enlightenment?

    We are just nominal projections onto processes. There is no thing that can claim enlightenment. When in fact all things are enlightened by the fact that they are impermanent processes.

    So no enlightened being would be able to be considered enlightened because it requires a being by our defintion to be enlightened.

    The movement of the wind needs no affirmation.
    Have you been reading too much, @taiyaki? :)
    @Floating_Abu: My theoretical understanding of Buddha's teachings says: All conditioned things are unworthy of attachment because all conditioned things are anicca, dukkha and anatta. the outer world or Samsara is the projection of our mind. everything we experience through our senses in the external world is conditioned, which arises based on the arising of their conditions and which ceases on the cessation of their conditions. there is no entity anywhere. these are just processes, which arise and fall based on their conditions. the cessation of all conditions is the unconditioned or Nirvana. so Nirvana is not something which is attained, rather Nirvana is the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena. so Nirvana can only be directly experienced and not understood/explained through the conditioned senses of the conditioned body.

    Above is based on my theoretical understanding only, as till now i have not experienced anything with direct experience.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited May 2012
    @Floating_Abu: i agree with @taiyaki here.

    My theoretical understanding of Buddha's teachings says: All conditioned things are unworthy of attachment because all conditioned things are anicca, dukkha and anatta. the outer world or Samsara is the projection of our mind. everything we experience through our senses in the external world is conditioned, which arises based on the arising of their conditions and which ceases on the cessation of their conditions. there is no entity anywhere. these are just processes, which arise and fall based on their conditions. the cessation of all conditions is the unconditioned or Nirvana. so Nirvana is not something which is attained, rather Nirvana is the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena. so Nirvana can only be directly experienced and not understood/explained through the conditioned senses of the conditioned body.

    Above is based on my theoretical understanding only, as till now i have not experienced anything with direct experience.
    Dear @misecmisc1

    How wonderful. Thankyou for your response.

    And that is the key: theoretical.

    Theoretical, how familiar I am with that.

    Picking up, cultivating, collecting hoardes and hoardes of intellectual capacity play. Words and understandings, memorised and repeated again and again as if it is mine!

    We can all speak the unspeakable but the difference in the true enlightened ones are the realisation of difference, the genuine fathoms of insight and understanding that can only be known through practice -- through experiential knowing and love.

    To speak is all too easy and common. And on Buddhist boards and the internet, certainly this is all we have -- yet.

    But that genuine Buddhist understanding must penetrate through the gross and subtle shadows of mere intellectual understanding, appreciation, repetition and above all -- belief.

    Our good friend @taiyaki may believe what s/he says but ...

    "We are just nominal projections onto processes"

    Really?

    That sounds more like a line from a science fiction movie than the heart of a genuine monk. Without compassion, we are all in reality dead.

    The heart is alive, ALWAYS alive, and operating in ways that can be not merely encapsulated by our projections/theories.

    That the words might have some semblance to reality is because nearly all enlightened ones of the past/present/future have needed to use some words to give a hint and a taste of what they know but -- to take these words and repeat and believe is, I think, to just take that candy wrapping as the fruit, and I think an injustice to the mission that those past ones served.

    Just my opinion, as they say ... ;)

    Best wishes,
    Abu
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited May 2012
    @Floating_Abu: My view: There are two views of the same thing : conventional truth and ultimate truth.

    conventional truth is the truth of Samsara. ultimate truth is the truth of seeing the things as 'just they are' - all conditioned phenomena are anicca, dukkha and anatta.

    the moment the concept of 'I' is created in the mind, that same moment the external world Samsara comes into being. but whatever is out there in Samsara is conditioned and so is anicca, dukkha and anatta.

    the root cause is ignorance or avidya.

    when ignorance will be removed, the concept of 'I' will be removed, the concept of Samsara will be removed, conventional truth will be removed and then we shall be able to see the things as 'just they are'.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    The path isn't something that ends one day. Everything changes and so to wrap it all up is to miss it unfold. To be on the path is to walk the path. Being the path there is still no permanent self becausethe only permanence is impermanence.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    I think maybe once we wake up we see there is no waking up. What was delusion becomes an artful tool.

  • lamaramadingdonglamaramadingdong Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
    RIGHT.. Now this makes more sense now!! This is what I was meaning in my other question question!

    So walking the 8 fold path 'is' to act in an enlightened way!!

    So they maybe no different in buddhas actions and those who fully walk the 8 fold path..

    Buddha was enlightened coz he walked the path.
    So those who walk his path aswell, also walking an enlightened path..

    BUT my question still arises; "is enlightenment a special feeling. Or is it just an 'ahhh' moment' ??
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited May 2012

    BUT my question still arises; "is enlightenment a special feeling. Or is it just an 'ahhh' moment' ??

    Yesterday while dozing after lunch I thought I got Enlightened. But it turned out to be my cell phone on vibrate... :(

    ...and it was the wrong number.
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
    RIGHT.. Now this makes more sense now!! This is what I was meaning in my other question question!

    So walking the 8 fold path 'is' to act in an enlightened way!!

    So they maybe no different in buddhas actions and those who fully walk the 8 fold path..

    Buddha was enlightened coz he walked the path.
    So those who walk his path aswell, also walking an enlightened path..

    BUT my question still arises; "is enlightenment a special feeling. Or is it just an 'ahhh' moment' ??
    My understanding of Buddha's teachings says: the path is the 8-fold path, which leads to the arising of the factors of Awakening, which leads to Awakening and it is not something which is achieved, rather it is the outcome of the cessation of all conditions.

    so the path is not Awakening, rather walking the path till its end leads to Awakening.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
    Perhaps you can help me. I try to remember who said "We don't search because we wish to be enlightened, we're enlightened because we wish to search" but can't seem to be able to find it.


  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Do you have the Clairvoyance of knowing others minds if not then you will be left to your assumptions. Those who attain enlightenment with exception of Buddha generally do not go around proclaiming their selves as enlightened as they let their virtues speak for them. Buddha did a 6 year solitary retreat and thus attained awakening not to mention he also spent many previous lives working for others welfare as a Bodhisattva. People attain awakening at different speeds depending on what methods they are using and if there's one thing ive learnt its that view conditioned by delusion is incapable of directly seeing the truth of phenomena so how can it rightly ascertain who is enlightened or advanced on the path ?
    Caz, I thought the original question asked in this thread was more along the lines of if you asked someone directly, which is a lot different than going around proclaiming.

  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran
    Not one of the Buddhas in the three worlds knows he's a Buddha. But cats and oxen do know.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Who can claim enlightenment?

    We are just nominal projections onto processes. There is no thing that can claim enlightenment. When in fact all things are enlightened by the fact that they are impermanent processes.

    So no enlightened being would be able to be considered enlightened because it requires a being by our defintion to be enlightened.

    The movement of the wind needs no affirmation.
    Have you been reading too much, @taiyaki? :)
    @Floating_Abu: My theoretical understanding of Buddha's teachings says: All conditioned things are unworthy of attachment because all conditioned things are anicca, dukkha and anatta. the outer world or Samsara is the projection of our mind. everything we experience through our senses in the external world is conditioned, which arises based on the arising of their conditions and which ceases on the cessation of their conditions. there is no entity anywhere. these are just processes, which arise and fall based on their conditions. the cessation of all conditions is the unconditioned or Nirvana. so Nirvana is not something which is attained, rather Nirvana is the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena. so Nirvana can only be directly experienced and not understood/explained through the conditioned senses of the conditioned body.
    This doesn't mean that there "is not thing to claim Enlightenment". This is one of those silly paradoxes that can be so annoying in Buddhism. This is a form of nihilism, which the Buddha taught against. Of course there's something there to claim Enlightenment. The Buddha certainly claimed Enlightenment. He didn't get tangled up in Two Truths theory (which he never taught, anyway, it was a later interpretation) or go around saying nonsensical things, like he didn't really exist. :rolleyes:

  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
    RIGHT.. Now this makes more sense now!! This is what I was meaning in my other question question!

    So walking the 8 fold path 'is' to act in an enlightened way!!

    So they maybe no different in buddhas actions and those who fully walk the 8 fold path..
    Dear @zenmyste

    Perhaps you might practice with a real life Zen centre/group and attend sesshins.

    This might help clarify what you are genuinely seeking.

    Of course there is a difference, but to say so might be far too wrong.

    A painted cake can never satisfy one's hunger
    Old proverb

    Well wishes :)

    Abu
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    There is no path to enlightenment- the path IS enlightenment.
    Perhaps you can help me. I try to remember who said "We don't search because we wish to be enlightened, we're enlightened because we wish to search" but can't seem to be able to find it.


    I think the prior quote would be "There is no way to peace - peace IS the way"

    As to your one, I hav heard: That which seeks, is that which we are seeking :)

    Namaste,

    Abu
  • allen_ukallen_uk
    So many words.

    If you are on the path, you may find enlightenment. If you are not on the path, you will not find it.

    Just try doing it quietly.


    Allen.
Sign In or Register to comment.