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The Logic of the Triple Gem?
Why did Buddha insist on belief in the triple gem?
Buddha - do we need believe in him or buddha nature - Does belief in him simply serve as an example to aspire to or as a proof for followers?
Dharma - Perhaps we have to believe in the dharma because if we do not then it cannot function as a framework for action effectively enough?
Sangha - belief in this simply ensures the continuity of buddhism so all can learn about it?
Buddha - do we need believe in him or buddha nature - Does belief in him simply serve as an example to aspire to or as a proof for followers?
Dharma - Perhaps we have to believe in the dharma because if we do not then it cannot function as a framework for action effectively enough?
Sangha - belief in this simply ensures the continuity of buddhism so all can learn about it?
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Comments
You don't Take Refuge because you 'Believe' in any of them.
and the Buddha never 'insisted' anywhere, that you 'Believe' in anything.
On the contrary....
You take Refuge because you have Faith in them - the Definition of 'Faith' in this case, being 'Confident'.
You have confidence in the Buddha as a teacher and Mendicant.
You have confidence in the Dhamma - his teachings - which of course, you do not take at face value...
You have confidence in the Sangha - the Community of followers who discuss and examine his teachings, and live their lives in the way of the 8Fold Path.
and you Take Refuge as and when you feel the right moment to do so, is arrived at.
that makes more sense then i think. i'm interested in how to explain why faith in these is important.
Then belief becomes confidence.
You got to start somewhere.
I use the Triple Gems of Buddhism as a tool for inspiration and focus. And would rather use the word "Acceptance" in place of Confidence or Faith. I accept that the Buddha is "Enlightened" or "Awakened", and I understand that there where Buddhas before him and there will be more after. I accept the teachings (Dharma) of the Buddha's as guidelines to my own liberation from pain and suffering, and as a means to provide liberation of pain and suffering for all sentient beings. I accept the need to be part of a Sangha or community of other like individuals, so that we can constructively discuss the teachings and learn from each other.
Saddhā: faith, confidence.
A Buddhist is said to have faith if "he believes in the Perfect One's (the Buddha's) Enlightenment" (M 53; A.V, 2), or in the Three Jewels (s. ti-ratana), by taking his refuge in them (s. ti-sarana). His faith, however, should be "reasoned and rooted in understanding" (ākāravatā saddhā dassanamūlika; M. 47), and he is asked to investigate and test the object of his faith (M. 47, 95). A Buddhist's faith is not in conflict with the spirit of inquiry, and "doubt about dubitable things" (A. II, 65; S. XLII, 13) is admitted and inquiry into them is encouraged. The 'ability of faith' (saddhindriya) should be balanced with that of wisdom (paññindriya; s. indriya-samatta). It is said: "A monk who has understanding, establishes his faith in accordance with that understanding" (S. XLVIII, 45). Through wisdom and understanding, faith becomes an inner certainty and firm conviction based on one's own experience.
Faith is called the seed (Sn. v. 77) of all advantageous states because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind with confidence (okappana, pasāda) and determination (adhimokkha), for 'launching out' (pakkhandhana; s. M. 122) to cross the flood of samsāra.
Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of holiness, 'stream-entry' (sotāpatti, s. ariyapuggala), when the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikicchā; s. samyojana) is eliminated. Unshakable confidence (avecca-pasāda) in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner (sotāpannassa angāni, q.v.).
Faith is a mental concomitant, present in all karmically advantageous, and its corresponding neutral, consciousness (s. Tab. II). It is one of the 4 streams of merit (puññadhārā, q.v.), one of the 5 spiritual abilities (indriya, q.v.), spiritual powers (bala, q.v.), elements of exertion (padhāniyanga, q.v.) and one of the 7 treasures (dhana, q.v.).
See Faith in the Buddha's Teaching, by Soma Thera (WHEEL 262). "Does Saddhā mean Faith?'' by Ñānamoli Thera (in WHEEL 52/53).
Faith as a requirement is blind faith.
Six grounds are given which are considered unsatisfactory because they rely on faith and authority. There has been some disagreement on the exact meaning of each of these grounds, and this is reflected in the different ways they have been translated. We shall first give the Pali term used and then comment on the most likely meaning.
(1) anussavena;. This has been translated as ‘report’, ‘tradition’, and even more formally as ‘revelation’. The Vedas which formed the basis of the traditional religion were considered as being revealed (‘ruti’) by a divine source (Prajāpati, or Brahmā). The Middle Eastern religions like Judaism, Christianity or Islam are also considered as revelations from God through Prophets. According to the Buddha’s first condition this is not a sufficient ground to establish their validity as a correct form of belief.
(2) paramparāya. This refers to a teaching which is handed down from teacher to pupil. This was the normal method of propagation in those days, especially for upanihadic teaching, but was also common in other traditions also. The point is that the fact that a teaching had a long pedigree does not mean that it is a valid teaching. There must be other things attesting to its validity. The Buddha gives the analogy of a string of blind men (andavei), each leading the other and not knowing where they were going.
(3) itikirāya . This has usually been translated as ‘hearsay’ (Woodword for the Pali Text Society) and ‘rumour’ (Bhikkhu Soma) but it includes all kinds of legendary and historical material. The term was used in relation to Brahmanical teachings like the Nyāya Sūtra which relied on a kind of hearsay (aithiya) for its validity. The Buddha says that the Dhamma does not rely on itikirāya for its validity.
(4) piṭakasampadāya. This refers to a system which relies on a textual tradition for its validity. It would apply where a ‘holy book’ is the basis of belief, like the Vedas, the Bible or the Koran. What this implies is that the Pali Canon itself cannot automatically be considered as a divinely inspired source. What is contained there should be subject to examination and accepted only if they satisfy the criteria set down for valid belief.
(5) bhavyarpatāya. This is a difficult term to translate. Woodword has ‘because it fits becoming’. K.N.Jayatilleke gives the literal rendering as ‘because of its having the nature of what ought to be’ or more freely as ‘because of its suitability or fittingness’. Bhikkhu Soma has ‘another’s seeming ability’ which seems to be the simplest. What it means that you should not take the theory because its author appears to be well qualified.
(6) sama.no no garu . This literally means ‘our teacher (or recluse) is venerable’. The sramana may be venerable because of his personal qualities and high moral principles, but these do not necessary guarantee that his teaching is necessarily correct.
Please don't take this the wrong way, you being a moderator and all, but is your rhetoric here any different than other extremes found in a discussion or debate that's less than meaningful?
Dialectics, my friend.
So there's no mistunderstanding, I'm talking about the "requirement of faith", not "faith" in and of itself.
This understanding of this idea may grow in time, as will the understanding of the triple gem. In Therevadan Buddhism, one only understands the triple gem fully after the first step of enlightenment. It is literally said that someone after this first step (sotapanna it is called) has faith (better is conviction) in the Buddha, and those who aren't there yet have not (at least not to the same degree).
So this 'faith' is not something you usually start with. We start with an idea of faith in that's more like: "Well, maybe there is something in it, I'll check it out."
Have you seen the laughter of a child, or the teardrop of an adult?
Analyse that.
When you do have right view you can perceive sambhogakaya, a body of the Buddha.
If John Doe #1 and #2 doesn't have the same "unshakable faith" as Jane Doe, then both are seen as lacking in some quality deemed important, that there's some kind of defect, that maybe they aren't as sincere in their practice, and on and on.
Then John Doe #1 feels the pressure, adopts the "unshakable faith" just to fit it, while John Doe #2 refuses to lie to himself, long enough others, and refuses to do the same.
Out of these three, who's closer to stream entry and who is not? Who even has the right to decide?
This is where critically thinking comes into play
That is really not enough information to say who is not the stream enterer as stream entry, according to Buddha's teaching, requires the cutting of 3 fetters, not just 1. So just having unshakable faith does not make one a stream enterer but it is an inevitable quality of a person who already is a stream enterer. It's an inevitable quality of a stream enter because what the buddha said actually is true, regardless if anyone believes it or not. The four noble truths are more like fact than beliefs. The abandonment of "skeptical doubt" is a naturally occurring product of practice. It's not something that one is "pressured into". If they are pressured into it, the pressure is coming from themselves, not some outside thing. John doe #1 is being foolish by doing that to himself. But like i said, it's not someone or something else doing the pressuring, it's john doe himself doing it to himself and if you don't do that to yourself, then there is no pressure.
Just my 2 cents.
IMHO it would hardly be a "truth", long enough a universal one, if it can't be applied in and of itself without the trappings.
By the way, does anyone know why "#1" and the like is showing up as a hyperlink?
Did he actually insist we believe in them as a matter of principle or law? I'm not sure the word insist is accurate, can you post a link that shows that type of attitude?
It requires faith that things can better and that I can do something to help that happen. It requires belief in the ideas of the Buddha and whatever tradition you feel fits well for you. It requires faith in others who have come before and will come after.
Of course, this doesn't diminish the existence of the Triple Gem in the life and practice of Buddhism as an institution, but it does provide a viable alternative.
"Therefore, Ānanda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."
The Buddha encouraged the idea of not believing anything unless it correlated with our own experience and critical analysis.