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Is this description about (meditation 'is' enlightenment) correct?? opinions pls!!

zenmystezenmyste Veteran
edited July 2012 in General Banter
When one meditates properly
He masters all precepts
He doesnt kill
He doesnt steal or lie
He isnt dwelling in a particular state
He is completely living in the moment
Hence when we meditate
We are living as an Enlightened being
Free from the worry around us and within us
Sitting completely perfect
Therefore its true,
meditation is infact 'Enlightenment'

Comments

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I think having a really good meditation is like having a glimpse of the enlightened state.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Master Seung Sahn used to say, "Enlightenment is easy. It's staying enlightened in every situation that's hard!" and I think he meant the same. When "proper meditation" becomes your everyday mind, then you've got something.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    When you're meditating it's "as if" you were a buddha, in other words your mind and body are functioning like a buddha's. As soon as the defilements raise their ugly heads though you're once again in a world of hurt. This is how zazen attempts to awaken us I think... by putting us in the "natural state" of a buddha for moments at a time and letting it become natural for us. Best way to learn how to ride a bike is just to get on, right? At least that's the impression that I get.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    When one 'meditates' properly....
    ...'meditation' is infact 'Enlightenment'
    It also works if 'meditation' is exchanged with any other verb... thus it appears to not be exclusive to meditation.

    The key appears to be 'properly'... whatever that means to you...
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    When you're meditating it's "as if" you were a buddha, in other words your mind and body are functioning like a buddha's. As soon as the defilements raise their ugly heads though you're once again in a world of hurt. This is how zazen attempts to awaken us I think... by putting us in the "natural state" of a buddha for moments at a time and letting it become natural for us. Best way to learn how to ride a bike is just to get on, right? At least that's the impression that I get.
    @cloud -- Acting "as if" something were true has its uses, perhaps, for inspiration and determination. But when you think it through, I think maybe you will agree that it is just another way of compounding the problems we set out to ease in the first place. Acting "as if" you were a Buddha suggests that you already know what a Buddha is, which of course, you do. But if you already know what a Buddha is, what point is there in acting "as if" you were a Buddha? On the other hand, if you don't know what a Buddha is, how could you possibly act as if you were one? All such stuff may be inspiring, but it is limited to the realm of intellect and emotion and a rich imagination ... which is to say, it's limited and subject to the whimsical world of circumstances.

    But let's not get too sexy here; let's not tie ourselves up in deliciously 'paradoxical' and 'profound' and 'spiritual' knots. Instead, perhaps, it may be useful to consider the lowly sneeze. No one has a problem sneezing ... they just do it... a great, big, whole-hearted and sometimes gooey sneeze. Where is "buddha" or "Buddhism" or "compassion" or "emptiness" or any other $5 construct when you sneeze? Isn't sneezing so complete, so 'utter' that even "sneezing" cannot find a foothold? It's complete and unfettered and as easy as mayonnaise. It's not possible to act "as if" you are sneezing unless you are playing let's-pretend with the other kids. And if you are playing such a game, then everyone laughs because everyone knows that pretending to sneeze is silly: Sneezing is just sneezing and everyone knows it -- no pretense, no "as if" necessary.

    An audience member once addressed the Korean Zen teacher Soen Sa Nimh: "Sometimes I feel like such a phoney when I meditate. Such a schmuck." And SSN replied, "You're either a Buddha or a schmuck. There is no in between."

    And the same is true for sneezing or being a Buddha ... there is no "in between," no "as if." It simply does not compute. And none of this is a big deal any more than sneezing is a big deal. Our practice aims to get us out from under the in-betweens in our lives ... the imaginative, fretful, joyful, adoring, weeping, elevating, philosophizing in-betweens. Our in-betweens have the power of long-standing practice -- what the hell, we've been doing it all our lives -- but that doesn't mean we can't revise the scenery a bit, relax a little and stop in-between-ing our sneezes, and as-if-ing our buddhas.

    Sorry ... got off on a bit of a toot there.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @genkaku
    I think that's why it's done, so as not to think about it but to experience it, to let the mind gradually unwind of its own accord and drop off. It's not about knowing what a buddha is already, but about not knowing. I'm not a Zen practitioner so don't take my word for it...

    Think you took the "as if" thing a little different than I meant it. ;) What I meant to convey is more like having your nose tickled until you sneeze than "acting as if" you're sneezing. Eventually the sneeze will happen... you don't have to "do" anything (other than set up the right conditions and let nature take its course), which is exactly how zazen seems to be. It's not that you're sitting there meditating and you're a buddha or pretending to be, but that in finding the meditative mind of a buddha this will eventually cause the mind to sneeze (to realize Nirvana).

    Or so I think. It seems to be the same basic principle as other types of meditation, down to the bare bones.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    It's not about knowing what a buddha is already, but about not knowing.
    @cloud -- You're probably right -- no one knows what a sneeze is.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2012
    No. Enlightenment and meditation are not the same. Even a peaceful and deep meditation is not enlightenment. The Buddha made this quite clear on occasions, explicitly listing the various meditative states as not being unbinding, not being nirvana.

    Also when he learned meditation from his teachers, he went on because he was not satisfied yet. He didn't think it was the final unbinding.

    So to be temporary free from worries or other defilements doesn't mean we're enlightened. Enlightenment is beyond all that.

    To me it would also be quite a useless enlightenment; one that only lasts as long as we're meditating.

    Metta!
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Even a peaceful and deep meditation is not enlightenment. The Buddha made this quite clear on occasions, explicitly listing the various meditative states as not being unbinding, not being nirvana.
    But the various meditative states are the basis for enlightenment.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2012
    No. Enlightenment and meditation are not the same. Even a peaceful and deep meditation is not enlightenment. The Buddha made this quite clear on occasions, explicitly listing the various meditative states as not being unbinding, not being nirvana.

    Also when he learned meditation from his teachers, he went on because he was not satisfied yet. He didn't think it was the final unbinding.

    So to be temporary free from worries or other defilements doesn't mean we're enlightened. Enlightenment is beyond all that.

    To me it would also be quite a useless enlightenment; one that only lasts as long as we're meditating.

    Metta!

    That is a traditional Theravada view. Mahayana, in at least some sects (Soto Zen for example), is different. Zen Master Dogen taught that zazen (Shikantaza) and enlightenment are one in the same. Dogen’s account of Zazen as Shikantaza is that Zazen is conceived not as a means to an end but as a practice of the end itself. Cultivation (shu) is not different from authentication (sho), practice from Enlightenment. If we are practicing Shikantaza correctly, then we are practicing Enlightenment itself. Zen Patriarch Hui Neng also made similar statements.
    To me it would also be quite a useless enlightenment; one that only lasts as long as we're meditating.
    Unless you are doing meditation 24/7, then it could be quite useful! :)
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Even a peaceful and deep meditation is not enlightenment. The Buddha made this quite clear on occasions, explicitly listing the various meditative states as not being unbinding, not being nirvana.
    But the various meditative states are the basis for enlightenment.
    Depends on what you mean by basis. Meditation is something leading upto enlightenment, so in that sense it is a basis. But the topic here was, is it enlightenment? Or is it part of enlightenment? It's like asking: is the road a part of the destination? In that sense, no; they are different.

    So enlightenment is beyond meditative states. But that doesn't mean meditation is not useful, or doesn't provide a sense of direction.
  • driedleafdriedleaf Veteran
    edited July 2012
    At certain times it may feel like it, but then you might get some interruption, or something happens which breaks the focus. So meditation might not be enlightenment if our meditation is still fragile and easily falls apart. Which would not be the case with enlightenment. If you can get into focus and keep that focus with you forever, that might be closer to enlightenment.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2012
    That is a traditional Theravada view. Mahayana, in at least some sects (Soto Zen for example), is different.
    Well, the views in Therevada are at times also quite widespread. I don't know about this specific topic, but I don't want to speak for an entire group of practitioners anyway. Therefore I decided to not share my view 'as a Therevadin', but just my view as my view. I can back it up with some suttas (if anyone is interested), I can make a logic analogy, etc, but in the end it is just my view and it's only here for everyones consideration. I don't share it because it is the view of a certain tradition (beit Therevada/Mahayana, or even Buddhist altogether). Whatever the truth is, it'll be beyond this anyway. :)
    Unless you are doing meditation 24/7, then it could be quite useful! :)
    True, until you get hit by a bus ;)

    Metta!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    That is a traditional Theravada view. Mahayana, in at least some sects (Soto Zen for example), is different.
    Well, the views in Therevada are at times also quite widespread. I don't know about this specific topic, but I don't want to speak for an entire group of practitioners anyway. Therefore I decided to not share my view 'as a Therevadin', but just my view as my view. I can back it up with some suttas (if anyone is interested), I can make a logic analogy, etc, but in the end it is just my view and it's only here for everyones consideration. I don't share it because it is the view of a certain tradition (beit Therevada/Mahayana, or even Buddhist altogether). Whatever the truth is, it'll be beyond this anyway. :)
    Unless you are doing meditation 24/7, then it could be quite useful! :)
    True, until you get hit by a bus ;)

    Metta!
    But those who spend their life in 24/7 meditation, can easily see the bus coming, hear it coming and even smell it coming, and just move out of the way. So getting hit by a bus is not possible! :) I was just saying that at least in the zen tradition, meditation = enlightenment, is just a very common teaching.
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