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Celibacy

I've been celibate for many years, and wish to remain so. I'm 33 years old. But now that I'm 33, I find craving arising strongly and a desire for a wife and child. I wish to overcome these strong desires and remain celibate all my life.

Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?
TheEccentric
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Comments

  • AmidaAmida Explorer
    I'm not able to do that...I need a better method. :P
  • Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?
    Marry tara, adopt a few deities. What better family could there be?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(Buddhism)
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Ordain !
    sovalobsterecdrewello1
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Amida said:


    Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?

    I remember there are some horrifying and hilarious suttas which deal with getting rid of lust and desire for a wife/kids. I don't have the energy to search them out for ya, but the Buddha spent a lot of time addressing the issue. Good luck!
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Need more details/ your tradition?/ practise?/ motivation to be celibate?/ why you think this craving is arising strongly now?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    So you both want a wife and child(ren) and you don't. Really, in there, there is only one truth and only you can find what it is. What are your reasons for wanting a wife/child? What are your reasons for wanting to remain celibate? Investigate. Is there more to it? Or is it simply limited to celibacy? If you are remaining celibate as part of a strict Buddhist study and practice, then perhaps it is time to expand and start teaching (if you don't already.) It may help you reaffirm your decision to take on the responsibility of students rather than that of a wife and kids.
    RebeccaSMaryAnne
  • I remember there are some horrifying and hilarious suttas which deal with getting rid of lust and desire for a wife/kids. I don't have the energy to search them out for ya, but the Buddha spent a lot of time addressing the issue. Good luck!

    Subha and the libertine. The most epic rejection in the history of sexual advances.
    sova
  • Amida said:

    I've been celibate for many years, and wish to remain so. I'm 33 years old. But now that I'm 33, I find craving arising strongly and a desire for a wife and child. I wish to overcome these strong desires and remain celibate all my life.

    Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?


    I'm going to play "devil's advocate" here for a minute or two and ask the following...

    Have you ever considered that your strong conviction to remain celibate, wife-less and childless, against all odds (cravings, sentimental yearnings, etc) is in actuality a form of attachment and craving in and of itself?

    Have you asked yourself why you have this attachment to celibacy and alone-less?

    Is being alone and celibate elevating your Buddhist practices - or merely facilitating avoidance of things unfamiliar or 'difficult' to accomplish on some level?

    IMO you may never "overcome" your desires and cravings leading you away from celibacy until you realize why you are grasping onto it in the first place....
    Maybe, just maybe, there is a subconscious message trying to come through now (hence the heightened desires and cravings) that celibacy is something that has served its purpose already and it's time to move on from there?

    Once a practice or routine (ANY practice or routine) becomes a form of suffering, it's time to re-evaluate that practice or routine and why it should /not be discontinued.

    Peace.
    BeejFoibleFullDaltheJigsaw
  • @Amida, I think you are absolutely on the right track to wish to remain celibate and childfree. What objectives motivated your decision?

  • It's nice to have family, and there's nothing wrong with it. It won't slow you down on your path to enlightenment if that's what you're worried about.

    It's really just a matter of preference, it's not a choice between being on the path and straying from it.

    Like someone said above, it's easy to be all Buddhist when you're alone, it's much different to be Buddhist in the face of life and all of its challenges, but they're both still the path.
    MaryAnneDaozen
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited November 2012
    You can reflect on the downsides of having a wife and child or the upsides of being single. Do it with a clear mind after meditation so it'll sink in a bit deeper.

    Like that you can program yourself into basically anything, so be a bit careful and kind for yourself ;) Know what you are doing.
  • RebeccaS said:

    It won't slow you down on your path to enlightenment if that's what you're worried about.

    It's really just a matter of preference, it's not a choice between being on the path and straying from it.

    What's your basis for claiming this? Though I am in a peaceful, happy marriage and the quality of my practice is entirely my own responsibility, I do find that being married is a drain on my practice. Less time to meditate, less flexibility for things like diet, more drama and sensual desire, leading to hindrances in meditation...

    Don't get me wrong: It's a worthwhile trade-off for me. But I would never advise someone that a sexual relationship won't slow down their spiritual path.
    JeffreySile
  • Because meditation isn't just about holing yourself up in a quiet room. You can meditate while you wash the dishes. Kindness isn't just sitting there wishing happiness for people, it's also doing things to bring happiness to the people in your life.

    Dharma is about life. It's what you do when you're faced with whatever life throws at you. With drama there is an opportunity to practice peace, you know?

    I just see no difference, other than a matter of preference, whether you choose a hermit style or celibate life, or whether you choose to have relationships and families, because a difference in terms of better or worse is illogical. There is no difference.
    ToshMaryAnnelobsterDavid
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2012
    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I'm married, and have 3 kids (and several pets). I don't find a hindrance to my practice or meditation in having those things in my life. If you see it as an obstacle, then that is what it is. It doesn't have to be that way. I find my being Buddhist actually adds a lot to their lives, and because of that, my life is better, happier, more peaceful overall. Perhaps I am lucky that my husband supports my practice. He is not Buddhist, but he gives me the time I need to meditate and practice yoga, he is happy to take care of things while I go on retreats, etc. I actually have an easier time with my practice because of the support of my family and I don't see it as an obstacle at all. Perhaps if I chose to look at it as "I can't meditate whenever I want, so having a family is a hindrance sometimes." Instead, like everything else, I work my practice around the rest of my responsibilities and it means making practice a priority, and because it's important to me, it's important to those who share my life, too.
    RebeccaSToshMaryAnne
  • seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    The trick is dying first :p
  • seeker242 said:

    But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    If that happened to me I'd marry a Filipino; my mate did and his wife is beautiful and is a great cook too.

    I currently have this Welsh wife. Amida, avoid Welsh women, and those from Middlesbrough too; they're as rough as old boots.
    sovaDairyLama
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child0? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    Even if a person doesn't marry, social connection is part of human life, and if a person refuses to connect with people out of fear of what happens when they die, then isn't that just aversion? Avoiding people isn't the way to go, and regardless of whether you marry or not, most people seek out, and develop relationships with other humans, and it still hurts to lose them. Understanding death and not fearing it is part of Buddhism (for me). You don't have to have a war of attachment versus aversion to have a family.
    MaryAnneOneLifeForm
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2012
    That is fine if you like to live a layperson lifestyle. Living a more monastic lifestyle is quite different. :) The OP wants to live a more monastic lifestyle, nothing wrong with that. :) According to a more monastic lifestyle, everything that you get from having a wife and child, is actually empty, not worth pursuing. Just temporary feelings that will come to an end. Seeing it like this, pursuing them is pointless. You don't really get anything from it.
  • Or ......................
    maybe you can seek the best of both words and partner up with a Buddhist woman? :D Then raise Buddhist children in a Buddhist household...

    I'm serious- why not? Then you and your wife can make Buddhist practices and mindset the foundation for home life and child raising. Seems like a win-win to me!
  • Tosh said:

    seeker242 said:

    But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    If that happened to me I'd marry a Filipino; my mate did and his wife is beautiful and is a great cook too.

    I currently have this Welsh wife. Amida, avoid Welsh women, and those from Middlesbrough too; they're as rough as old boots.
    :skeptic:

    :lol:
    Tosh
  • seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    Meet, greet, date, marry, procreate (or not)... it's all One Day at a Time. No need to worry about the future death of loved ones. There is only today.



  • seeker242 said:

    That is fine if you like to live a layperson lifestyle. Living a more monastic lifestyle is quite different. :) The OP wants to live a more monastic lifestyle, nothing wrong with that. :) According to a more monastic lifestyle, everything that you get from having a wife and child, is actually empty, not worth pursuing. Just temporary feelings that will come to an end. Seeing it like this, pursuing them is pointless. You don't really get anything from it.

    Exactly. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with it either way, it's just a matter of preference.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Why do you have to do something, to get something out of it? I don't have children because I want something out of it. Do I get something? Sure. But there is far more than that that goes into parenting, or having relationships. When done with the right intentions, parenting can have a positive effect on the world around you. Someone was the parents of MLK. Should they have not had children because they got nothing out of it?

    And I didn't see anything in the OPs post about living a monastic lifestyle. Which is why I asked the first questions I did. If that is what they are after, then the advice is going to be far different, I think. The only thing the OP said was that they have been celibate and would like to remain so. Nothing at all in there about motivations, and assuming they are celibate because they are living a monastic lifestyle is assuming too much, I think.
    RebeccaSMaryAnne
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    karasti said:

    seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child0? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    Even if a person doesn't marry, social connection is part of human life, and if a person refuses to connect with people out of fear of what happens when they die, then isn't that just aversion? Avoiding people isn't the way to go, and regardless of whether you marry or not, most people seek out, and develop relationships with other humans, and it still hurts to lose them. Understanding death and not fearing it is part of Buddhism (for me). You don't have to have a war of attachment versus aversion to have a family.
    It's not about aversion IMO, but just about not indulging in sense pleasures. It's not about avoiding people, but simply not indulging in sense pleasures. "Detachment" in Buddhism is not about "avoiding", it's about "not indulging". It's also important to note the context of such statements. They are directed to people who WANT to be celibate and only those people. So if you personally don't want to be celibate, then they don't apply to you. :)

  • seeker242 said:

    karasti said:

    seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child0? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    Even if a person doesn't marry, social connection is part of human life, and if a person refuses to connect with people out of fear of what happens when they die, then isn't that just aversion? Avoiding people isn't the way to go, and regardless of whether you marry or not, most people seek out, and develop relationships with other humans, and it still hurts to lose them. Understanding death and not fearing it is part of Buddhism (for me). You don't have to have a war of attachment versus aversion to have a family.
    It's not about aversion IMO, but just about not indulging in sense pleasures. It's not about avoiding people, but simply not indulging in sense pleasures. "Detachment" in Buddhism is not about "avoiding", it's about "not indulging". It's also important to note the context of such statements. They are directed to people who WANT to be celibate and only those people. So if you personally don't want to be celibate, then they don't apply to you. :)



    Wait-- what??

    So the OP was directed ONLY to others who are/want to be celibate? Huh, I didn't get that distinction.... Nor did I see any inference that the OP was pursuing a monastic life.

    What is going on here lately... can't we please let the OPs speak for themselves when it comes to replying to comments or questions posed in order to clarify the OP?
    Seems to me this is how too many misunderstandings start around here.

    RebeccaS
  • Having tried both, 20 years of family life then going on 10 years alone, I can say that there is definitely a difference in life and practice. Whether ones practice will be affected negatively or positively is something that is hard to predict at the outset.
    For sure your life will be different if you choose to remain alone than it would be with a family.
    I guess it will be one of those things you might ponder on your death bed. Were the realizations that I have gained worth the trade off?
    Of course, if there are physical or other reasons why a family is not in the cards it would not come up. Move ahead and don't waste energy worrying about it.
    As for celibacy, I don't really have an opinion about how one deals with it. If you remain celibate, will the urges subside entirely?
    I have not had intimate relations for a number of years now. The sex drive is greatly diminshed, but not gone altogether. But I am 57. At 33 the urges were much stronger.
    I suppose it would be best to ask a celibate monk for his view.
    lobsterSile
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    I'm with @MaryAnne - I've been celibate for a while and I think it's served it's purpose. I am also feeling the strong desires arise lately, and I think it's because I'm ready to open up and get down. Maybe you are ready, @Amida, to try intamacy again? Don't get too far ahead of yourself thinking of children. You must encounter intamcy first!
    RebeccaS
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2012
    MaryAnne said:






    Wait-- what??

    So the OP was directed ONLY to others who are/want to be celibate? Huh, I didn't get that distinction.... Nor did I see any inference that the OP was pursuing a monastic life.

    What is going on here lately... can't we please let the OPs speak for themselves when it comes to replying to comments or questions posed in order to clarify the OP?
    Seems to me this is how too many misunderstandings start around here.

    The OP said he wants advice on how to maintain celibacy. So the topic of this thread is: "How do you get rid of desires for wife, child". Advice given in this context would only be for people who want to maintain celibacy. Not normal laypersons since normal laypersons generally don't want to maintain celibacy. So what I was trying to say was, my comments about wife , kids dying, etc, were only directed at someone who wants to try to maintain celibacy. :) Not to any of you. And the intent was to shed light on the fact of impermanence. :) Seeing the impermanent nature of such things causes these desires to go away. :)

    It's not really that appropriate to try to persuade someone who wants to be celibate, to not be. Just like it's not appropriate to try to persuade someone who is not celibate, to be celibate.



  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I don't think anyone is trying to convince the OP not to be celibate. I do think that a big part of Buddhism is investigating what you are thinking and feeling. Just willing them to go away (IMO) isn't the right way to approach things. Looking at why a person is feeling something that goes against what they believe and what they practice, is worthy of noting, worthy of investigating. Upon investigation the person should find the answers they are looking for. If they cannot, this is what having a teacher can come in handy for, as a board of people who are mostly not celibate (and definitely not monastic) are not likely to have the answers. I'm not saying it's not worth asking, but sometimes when something is a deep and important issue for you, asking a board of strangers can complicate it for you rather than help.
    MaryAnne
  • Aversion is the distortion of clarity. Clarity of a 'no' to something. Look deeply into why you feel this way.
  • AmidaAmida Explorer
    Thanks for the advice. I'll explain more fully. I believe it would be most intelligent to remain single, but I have a natural want for affection, wife, child, etc.. But on top of all that I have some health issues, which would make marriage quite difficult, so I wish to remain single. A family would be great, but I have to be practical. But making the practical choice doesn't stop the longings for those things, so I was hoping for advice and methods especially helpful in the suppression of wants for affection, wife, and child. If I lose myself the wants can be quite fiery and vex the mind, then when I come back to myself I center myself in the truth of impermanence and that possession is illusion and experiences are passing. But any tips to better equip myself against those fiery waves of want would be great.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    This is something I found interesting. It's from the section on Happiness (Sukha), from here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html
    The elimination of the hindrances prior to attaining access (concentration) is brought about by means of two methods, one specifically directed to each hindrance separately, the other applicable to all at once. The former is to be employed when a particular hindrance obtrudes itself with persistent force, the latter on other occasions when no one hindrance seems especially conspicuous. The specific method involves the reversing of the causal situation out of which the hindrance develops. Since each defiling factor is a conditioned phenomenon coming into existence through distinct causes, the key to its elimination lies in applying the appropriate antidote to its causal base. Thus sensual desire arises on account of unskillful attention to the attractive features of things, to alluring objects and physical bodies. It is attenuated by considering the impermanence of the objects of attachment, and by reflecting on the repulsive nature underlying the attractive appearance of the bodies which arouse desire. Ill-will or anger also springs up from unskillful attention, in this case to the unpleasant aspects of persons and things; it is reversed by developing loving kindness towards disagreeable people and patience in the face of unfavorable circumstances. Stiffness and torpor become prominent by submitting to moods of sloth and drowsiness; they are dispelled by the arousal of energy. Restlessness and regret arise from attending to disturbing thoughts and are eliminated by directing the mind to an object conducive to inner peace. And doubt, grounded upon unclarity with regard to fundamental points of doctrine, is dispelled by clear thinking and precise analysis of the issues shrouded in obscurity.

    In contrast to these techniques, which counter the hindrances separately, the practice of concentration on one of the prescribed objects of serenity meditation inhibits them all simultaneously. Though only affective so long as no particular hindrance impedes the meditative progress, this method, drawing upon the power of mental unification, is capable of bringing tremendous force to bear upon the struggle against their supremacy. Since the latent defilements can crop up into the open only so long as the mind is driven by discursive thinking, the unification of the mind upon a single object closes off the portal through which they emerge. As the mind descends to increasingly deeper levels of concentration, the hindrances are gradually made to subside until, with the attainment of access, their suppression becomes complete. Held at bay in the base of the mental continuum, the latent defilements are no longer capable of rising to the surface of consciousness. For as long as the suppressive force of concentration prevails, their activity is suspended, and the mind remains secure in its one-pointed stabilization, safe from their disruptive influence. This abandonment of the hindrances through the power of suppression brings a feeling of profound relief accompanied by a blissful effusion born from the newly accomplished purification. The Buddha compares the happiness of abandoning the hindrances to the happiness a man would experience if he were unexpectedly freed from debt, cured of a serious illness, released from prison, set free from slavery, or led to safety at the end of a desert journey.
    And then there is stuff like this. :)
    "There are five strands of sense desire. What are these five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sensual desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sense desire, and tempting to lust. These are the five strands of sense desire. The pleasure and joy arising dependent on these five strands of sense desire, that is called sensual pleasure.

    "Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana), which is accompanied by thought conception and discursive thinking and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime.

    "If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is that pleasure? Here, with the stilling of thought conception and discursive thinking... a monk enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption... in the third... in the fourth... in the fifth... in the sixth.

    "If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.
    But of course, going into those states of meditative absorption takes practice. They are very good at suppressing these things though. :)
  • I’m not sure. I failed in remaining single so I’m not the expert.
    I think suppressing emotions or desires doesn’t really work, and it’s better to accept them; welcome them even. Face the pain and cry if you want to.

    Some stupid koan says: “If you want to cross the ocean of suffering, you must take the ship with no bottom”.
    Don’t avoid it, drown in it.
    MaryAnne
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    There have been studies that show beings with no affection in their lives actually suffer that loss quite a lot. There is a balance, I think, in a true need for closeness with people versus a nonstop desire for it. I don't know what your health problems are, but would it be possible for you to meet your needs without going so far as to have children and a wife? What if you could volunteer somewhere, or get a pet? They can add a lot to one's life (they can also add suffering if you do not go into it with the right intention). Some things are true human needs, and trying to force them to not be needs might not be healthy. Affection is one of those things, but there is no rule that it must be sexual, or that it must come from a spouse or children. I get more affection from the dog and ferrets than I do from my teenage son, by far, lol. Just a different perspective.
    MaryAnne
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Tosh said:

    Amida said:


    Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?

    What worked for me to quiet the desire for having a wife and child was actually getting a wife and child.

    I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

    Ha ha ha!! That's the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum......Bravo @Tosh!

    :clap:
  • I wasn't being funny then though, @Bunks! :(

    That was me sharing my experience. The grass is always greener on the other side. Amida is suffering with the desire to have a wife and child and I am suffering with the having a wife and child.

    Different polar situations; same suffering! There's got to be something 'Buddhist' about that.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Tosh said:

    I wasn't being funny then though, @Bunks! :(

    That was me sharing my experience. The grass is always greener on the other side. Amida is suffering with the desire to have a wife and child and I am suffering with the having a wife and child.

    Different polar situations; same suffering! There's got to be something 'Buddhist' about that.

    Ooops....sorry @Tosh. I assumed it was that dry British sense of humour that I love so much.

    I'm sorry to hear things aren't going well for you. Everything that happens to you is a lesson. Good luck!
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Love your post, @MaryAnne
    I think for monastics, there is something to be said, at least in part, for rejecting the things daily life has to offer. Listening to my teacher talk this weekend, it seemed apparent *to me* that he could not do what he does, if he lived in the same world I live in. But at the same time, he cannot truly understand my challenges not having lived any of them.

    However, for lay people, I think avoiding everything that is our very human nature, is not a good thing for most people. Being hermits, renouncing everything in the world (it's tempting to me sometimes, lol, but not realistic), rejecting affection and normal human attachment, is just not good for human beings. Being social is part of our makeup. Look what happened in all the studies where affection was removed from various animals. They suffer in their growth in all areas. We cannot be healthy without it. That doesn't mean you have to get married and have children, of course, but a person is craving affection/attention because that is what people do and we're not meant to live without it. Even monks do not, they just don't experience it the same as we do.

    The point is not to never love another person. The point is to experience so deep a love (that IMO most people can only experience via a deep adult relationship and in a different way, having children) that you can then begin to learn how to expand that huge amount of love, kindness and compassion, to everyone. Not just your spouse, your children, your family, but to everyone. You don't stop loving people, or avoid loving them. You start loving everyone more like you love those closest to you.
    MaryAnneDavidlobsterOneLifeForm
  • A loving parent is a gift to the world.

    You can definitely do either (celibacy, or family life) and remain on the dharma path.

    Of course, if you decide on 'Option B', there is the small matter of finding a wife. Although I hear there are websites for that these days. :)
    MaryAnne
  • @Karasti - who said in part:

    "The point is not to never love another person. The point is to experience so deep a love (that IMO most people can only experience via a deep adult relationship and in a different way, having children) that you can then begin to learn how to expand that huge amount of love, kindness and compassion, to everyone. Not just your spouse, your children, your family, but to everyone. You don't stop loving people, or avoid loving them. You start loving everyone more like you love those closest to you. "



    Wow... That's beautiful. Thank you. :thumbup:
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    The Buddha taught that there is a difference. :) As for the OP, what do you think you will get from having a wife and child? Something significant? Sure you will get a relationship, family etc. But what's going to happen when they die? What then?

    He said it after he already had them though, lol. When he left them, he was not yet the Buddha. As Buddha, he went back to them, it's just that his family had grown to encompass everything and so didn't really show too much preferential treatment to the Gotomas.

    I'm 40 and I don't have any kids but I wouldn't mind if I did. I won't regret it if it doesn't happen but if it does, I will still do the best I can to help those around me.



    MaryAnne
  • Amida said:

    I've been celibate for many years, and wish to remain so. I'm 33 years old. But now that I'm 33, I find craving arising strongly and a desire for a wife and child. I wish to overcome these strong desires and remain celibate all my life.

    Any advice or methods to quiet the perpetual desires for wife and child?

    It's your hormones talking. This happened to a friend of mine. Out of nowhere, suddenly, she found herself craving a child, and actually considered it (she was single and had no bf). Then she came to her senses and had a firm talk with herself, and told herself it was completely unrealistic, and that it was just her hormones talking. She's been fine ever since. It might not be so easy for you, but it might help to realize that your body is programmed to have those cravings, it's not your rational mind talking.

    Also, get Shantideva's The Bodhisattva Way Of Life. It has a section on how to deal with such cravings.

    Sile
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    @Karasti - who said in part:

    "The point is not to never love another person. The point is to experience so deep a love (that IMO most people can only experience via a deep adult relationship and in a different way, having children) that you can then begin to learn how to expand that huge amount of love, kindness and compassion, to everyone. Not just your spouse, your children, your family, but to everyone. You don't stop loving people, or avoid loving them. You start loving everyone more like you love those closest to you. "



    Wow... That's beautiful. Thank you. :thumbup:

    It is beautiful.....having a child opened up a tenderness inside me that no other relationship ever has. I honestly don't think I would be a buddhist if it weren't for my daughter.

    DakiniDaozenMaryAnne
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2012
    MaryAnne said:


    Warning; A little venting... nothing personal, just something that set my fingers a-twitching to say...


    This comment is not aimed at you, seeker242, but about the ideas and instructions put forth in your copied writings re the section on Happiness (Sukha),

    These are the instruction of the Buddha to his monks, who chose to be celibate.
    If there is anything that deeply and profoundly 'puts me off' about Buddhism, it's exactly that kind of rhetoric in which we humans are supposed to resist/deny/suppress our very humanity and all its natural emotions and psychological needs for human companionship, care-taking of others, and love, in order to be "good" Buddhists. (on the same order as monks, or not)
    And that is why the Buddha did not give these instructions to laypersons who don't want to be celibate. This is precisely why these instructions are not for you. However, it does not deny "taking care of others" or "love", The Buddha scolded monks that did not take care of each other. For a monk to not take care of another monk, who is sick for example, is actually a precepts violation. They certainly do not deny love. However, there is a difference between romantic love and universal love or Metta.

    Actually, it more than puts me off; on some level, deep down, it grates my last nerve really, because it seems (to me) to go against so many of the most cherished attributes touted as a 'good Buddhist life' - selflessness, kindness, compassion, love, connectedness to all life around us, etc etc.
    It seems that way but it doesn't do any of those things.
    To me, to imply, no- to preach that to be separate, celibate, detached from human love or the responsibilities of caring for others/family, to deny our deeply engrained psychological need for that contact and intimate level of human interaction (you know, because it's always a "bad thing") is the only true path to becoming enlightened, or even just a 'devout Buddhist' -- well.... I just gotta call BS on that.
    "Detachment", in the context of these teachings, does not mean any of that.
    Many Buddhists agonize over the death of insects, or animals we/some of us eat for food and yet we are asked to dismiss -out of hand- the selfishness and self-indulgence we embrace when we refuse taking part in anything outside ourselves /our religion - only for the delusion that it makes us better Buddhists overall.
    The Buddha did not teach selfishness nor self indulgence. He always taught the opposite.
    That is dogma, religious dogma.
    And there is something deep down inside of me that tells me this was not the true intent of the Buddha, (at least not for lay-Buddhists) but instead evolved through the interpretations of those who recorded/translated/recited his teachings.
    You know, kind of like the way the Bible/Gospels were written long after Jesus came and went, and have been edited, expounded, changed, reinterpreted and translated over the centuries; to reflect the times, biases and the mindset of those doing the editing...
    Yes, it is religious dogma, for monks! Monks don't have a problem with dogma. They follow it voluntarily. "At least not for lay-Buddhists." Yes, this is correct! This is why this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with layperson teaching. NONE of what I said, in this context, applied to laypersons!
    And call me cynical, but there is also the chance that these unreasonable and most importantly unnatural hurdles to jump are specifically set up as a means to put a wedge between those who MIGHT attain enlightenment and those who most certainly (they claim) never will.
    All religions use that wedge; all to hold to their own systematic elitism.
    The Buddha never did that. That can be considered unreasonable for laypersons who do not wish to be celibate. They are not unreasonable to people who do want this and that is the only people they are directed towards.
    This is one of the biggest reasons I prefer my 'secular' Buddhism over religious Buddhism.
    Because the religious dogma (of all religions, not just Buddhism!) is just so much..... contradictory BS.OK, there you have it. My honest truest feelings about an aspect of Buddhism that always sets me off.
    And this preference is precisely why my comments do not apply to you, but only to someone who wants to be celibate. You do not want to be celibate. This is why a normal layperson life is more appropriate for you. However, none of the Buddhas teaching are contradictory. Some were for laypersons and some were for monks, who willingly followed "dogma". They are different teachings. The section I posted above is not for you! Or anyone else who does not wish to remain celibate. Which seems pretty much like everyone here, except the OP. Which is why I was talking only to Amida, and not to any of you. If your name is not Amida, then you can ignore my previous comments. They are not for you! You don't like monks teachings, you don't like dogma, that is fine. However, they are appropriate teachings for someone who does like it. Which is why the Buddha taught this to his monks. Once it is realized that, as a layperson, it's ok to flat out ignore some of the Buddha's teachings, and doing so is appropriate, then these teachings will no longer be bothersome. They are only for people who want to live that way. They are only for people who want to follow "dogma" and have no issue doing so. It's not appropriate for a layperson to follow ALL of the Buddha's teachings.
    :)
    JeffreySabre
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Thankyou @seeker242 for reminding folks there are two very different teachings, for lay-people, and for those inclined towards monasticism.
    This thread turned into a challenging by laypeople, of Amida's decision to be celibate, and almost totally ignored his actual question.
  • Thankyou @seeker242 for reminding folks there are two very different teachings, for lay-people, and for those inclined towards monasticism.
    This thread turned into a challenging by laypeople, of Amida's decision to be celibate, and almost totally ignored his actual question.

    I was not 'challenging' anyone. I made it clear my comments were personal feelings and perspectives of mine- no need to be everyone's.
    Neither did I sense anyone else who agreed with me and/or added their own perspective to mine was 'challenging' others.
    My comments were about the specific teachings chosen (to answer the OP) and how I feel about them.

    As for the usual divisive nonsense wedge about living the "monastic life" vs the plain ol' lesser beings (laypersons) life; well... if the OP is not wearing the robes, living a secluded life amongst other monks, devoting all his time, study, energy and focus to meditation and the Buddhist path, but instead, is going to work every day, lives in a regular neighborhood, drives a car or rides a bike, pays his bills, engages with co-workers, friends & family (if he has any) what makes his life style so -- monastic? Simply the choice of being celibate? Really? I didn't know that's all it took to be considered monastic.

    As for ignoring the original question- I don't feel I did that. I may approach things differently than you do @seeker24 or @JamestheGiant, but my first response to the OP very much addressed the issue he raised... which was how to deal with this relatively new surge of desires and cravings to stray from celibacy.
    I merely suggested to start at the source of his suffering and re-evaluate the attachment to remaining celibate in the first place.

    What bothers (or challenges) you more, my advice to Amida, or the fact that apparently I practice a form of Buddhism you don't approve of, nor respect?



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