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Are the jhanas essential?
DairyLama
Veteran Veteran
in Philosophy
The jhanas are repeatedly mentioned in the sutttas, suggesting that they are an important aspect of practice. And Right Concentration, a factor of the 8-fold path, is defined in terms of the jhanas.
And yet some teachers say they are unimportant.
What's your take on this?
And yet some teachers say they are unimportant.
What's your take on this?
1
Comments
Some approaches emphasise Jhanic states..some dont. Some eschew them altogether.
Here's a part of what my teacher said when I asked her about Jhana (Dhyana)...
(in this instance we have
the first effort (viriya) which is to have a wholesome thought in the mind
and
the second effort (viriya) which is not to allow unwholesome thought comes into the mind)
instead of taking one object, we can use 'asuba bavana, contemplating on body' or 'marananussati, contemplating on death' etc.
these would directly help to realize 'anicca, dukka, anatta'
we can take whatever we are comfortable with as our contemplating object or objects
if we are successful we will be able to come to the first jhana
(we can see in our mind there are only wholesome thoughts which are the 'vitakka and viccara', and we feel mild rapture etc. the qualities in first jhana)
knowing this stage we can continue and then we will be able to experience the second jhana (there is a feeling of happiness -Prithi- which can be experience in the body- we do not feel any ache or pain in the body at this time)
if we experience the above, now we can check whether we have any emotion in our mind
if there is no emotion then that will move us further (no bodily discomfort and no discomfort in mind -Suka-) to concentrated mind which is third jhana
if we continue further we will be able to experience 'upekka' equanimity where neither pleasure nor un pleasure feeling which is fourth jhana
in this way we continue our jhana states with knowing where we are going rather than just be going into hypnotized states of mind
we are aware of where we are going and what is happening to us for the whole time of meditation
I do know that Bhante G recommends them. I plan to take a Jhana retreat at Bhavana Society this year, I've never taken any Jhana retreats before or "tried" to do Jhana.... at this point I feel mindfully observing is more important.
whether we know or not know, we have jhana state before we experience 'emptiness' , 'sunnatha', or 'anatta'
that state can come through sitting, staanding, or walking meditation
it says, venerable Ananda experienced liberation without those four postures (it says when he was trying to keep his head on the pillow he liberated)
in suttas it say
with first jhana one can liberate
with second jhana one can liberate
with third jhana one can liberate
with fourth, fifth... upto eighth jhana one can liberate
to understand (experience) sunnatha or anatta, one needs to be on Noble Eight-fold Path (all the eight factors should be line with the Right View)
Right Concentration on Noble Eight-fold Path means one or more Jhana
there is a possibility that people do not know that they are experiencing jhana because they do not check the jhana qualities within their concentrated mind or they do not know how to check them
that is why that phrase 'whether we know or not know we have jhana' was there
That is why it is a factor of the N8FP.
Hard to attain - yes, but that isn't a good reason for ignoring them.
If that is true then anyone who attains Jhana should become enlightened, right? We had someone on the forum who said that they had become a jhana junky and suffered terribly from his habit.
haven't you heard that one of Siddhatta acetic's previous teacher Alara-kalama had attained Eight Jhana (nevasanna-nasanna-ayathana) couldn't enlightened?
there are four ways to become enlightened
1.dukka patipada danda abinna (start from contemplating on food, body, etc. where the different methods introduce in kayanaupassana)
in this situation one's five faculties (sadda, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) has developed mildly
2. dukka patipada kippa abinna (vedananupassana)
by this time one's five faculties has sharply developed
3. suka patipada danda abinna (cittanupassana)
by this time one's jhana qulities refined and five faculties developed mildly
4. suka patipada kippa abinna (dhammanupassana)
by this time one's jhana qualities refined and five faculties sharply developed
if we are still at the beginners level we are at first way
if we are at medium level we are at second way (this is the method that Arant Mugalan Enlighted)
if we have already developed our jhana qualities but not sharpened our five faculties we are at third way
if we have already developed our jhana qualities and sharpened our five faculties we are at fourth way (this is the method Arant Sariputta Enlightened )
Happy meditation all!
but try to be think about dhamma you have learned during the day whenever it is possible and with whatever you do
it will become a habit after a while, so then most of the time your mind is with Dhamma without knowing that you are involve in dhamma thought
(then you are practicing first effort namely, do not allow an unwholesome thought comes into mind)
I'm curious rather than concerned. I struggle to fit in even a brief, simple meditation every day and then I'm not very "good" at it (though it is good for me).
but
anybody can attain first jhana state if one can really supress the thinking process (when a thought comes into the mind, grab it and think over it-involve in future or past)
thinking is what we do all the time, with our delusional mind
only if we give an pure object to the mind to hold on (like 'in-breath-out-breath' or 'may all beings be well and happy' or 'buddho') and continuously keep the mind on it, after a while it will enter into the first jhana
this is possible for anyone (whether you know or not know you are in first jhana if your mind is not trying to involve in future or past which means in your mind there are no five hindrances -kamaccanda, vyapada, thina-middha, uddacca, kukkucca)
you do not have to try to attain jhana, but what you have to do is to give a pure object to the mind to hold onto and keep on holding to it
just arguing or just providing what you have read before (all such things are knowledge you get from out side, including what you have read in this post) just try and see what will happen
the experience you will get is not a thing you have heard or read but your own experience
why not do it today have no doubt
As I said, I'm not at all advanced. I found some parts of the book helpful but I can't comment on the sections regarding jhanas. I am just curious.
So what is Jhana? Is there more to it than pleasure?
when we say 'a serene mind' there is no thinking of past or future too
Some teachers advocate "dry insight", basically leaving out the jhanas.
Are you asking for yourself or to guide others?
I read an interesting quote once: It cannot be found by seeking, though it is only the seekers who find it.
Does anyone have experience/thoughts on this? I seriously doubt I have to worry about anything like this happening anytime soon, but I'm still curious.
I suppose if you meditate alone, you will not face this issue.
I am not aware of a physical detriment arising from an altered state of consciousness - that's just me though.
Equally I can have a drink, not be drunk and not made a t1t of myself - doesnt mean it will never happen and nor that everyone's relationship with alcohol will be the same.
if they had been doing meditation in their previous lives, the 'insight' (Right view) happens during the time of their meditation like contemplation on body, contemplation food, contemplation on breath, contemplation on death, contemplation on elements etc.
whether they like jhana or not they go through jhana if they contemplate on such 'things' for a long time
they are not worried about attain jhana states but they automatically get jhana states
the same goes with 'dukka patipada kippa abinna' (vedananupassana)
but
here their faculties are developed than before and they contemplate on six senses and the feeling
again they like it or not they go through jhana states before they get insight
the next
is suka patipada dhanda abinna (cittanupassana) where there one interests in jhana and try to attain First, Second jhana etc. and then get the insight
here one's faculties has not developed enough (they have only mildly developed faculties)
the fourth
is suka patipada kippa abinna (dhammanupassana) where they skilfully attain jhana states and gain the insight
(faculties are sadda-faith, viriya-energy, sati-mindfulness, samadhi-jhana (tranquality) and panna-wisdom)
are here even when not in jhana. The five indiryas. You can read about that view in Rigdzin Shikpo's: Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity.
those five faculties are perfected by Arahnts
for others
those five faculties are at different degrees
I would guess that if you develop one it will lead you to develop the others
Jhanas are just a product of letting go.
So whether one cultivates wisdom or the practice of shamatha they all lead to the same road which is of letting go.
What happens when we let go? The Jhanas happen. Existence itself start to become more unstable and less solid.
What happen when jhanas occur? The object of shamatha turns into a feeling of bliss and then joy and then peace. Then you have the formless jhanas of space, consciousness, nothingness and neither perception or non-perception.
These are all subtle and refined mind states, which are all fabrications of dualistic consciousness. And once they are made they are unmade and then nirvana or total unbinding is reached (non dualistic consciousness).
This is the path of the meditator.
Now there are some paths that cut straight to the non dualistic consciousness and then have no need to develop the hard jhantic states. But I do think at least a solid base of shamatha is required.
Some paths develop the formless jhanas say like the path of Mahamudra.
Well there are some ideas to chew on.
The spaciousness/openness is NOT the formless realm in Jhana because it is a facet of the Rigpa I guess. Formless meditation in my sangha is not a tantra, but it is said that it opens to it. Opens to Dzogchen, etc..
So there is a big difference between unconditional (yogacara view) nature of mind and a Jhanic realm which is impermanent.
It is a difference between "I need space" and star trek voyages into space. The first is the sensitivity, the discomfort, of the citta/mind. It is a fundamental quality to feel free and open. When we are not open ie claustrophobic that just shows that we know there is a quality of space that we want to get back to. So that dukkha can be sensitivity and it is turning towards the claustrophic feeling. That inherent mind is different from Jhana. From the Jhana of space that is an experience. An experience which is impermanen and therefore potentially dukkha. Trungpa said that craving states of mind can lead a person to bondage.
Non duality of Emptiness and spontaneous arising = nature of mind.
We'll have to agree to disagree