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Celibacy

Abstaining from all kinds of sex - physical and mental. Where to begin? What are the hurdles? How to overcome them?
inyo
«13

Comments

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    gtaali said:

    Abstaining from all kinds of sex - physical and mental.

    My mate wants to know what 'mental sex' is? Sounds, er, he says it sounds kinky.

    GlowlobsterInvincible_summerJohn_Spencer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I would think that the hurdle would be abstaining, lol. Dealing with seeing attractive people and dealing with the biology we are blessed with to want to procreate would definitely be a couple hurdles. Dealing with sex of some sort all around, if you are planning to remain in a lay person role. Are you looking to ordain?

    Considering sex is hardwired into our brains, it's a difficult thing for many people to consider (taking vows of celibacy), especially if you are planning to live in the everyday world and not in a monastery. I would think it would also be harder if you've already had positive sexual experiences and are thinking of giving them up, but I'm just trying to think of it from my point of view.
  • Adultery like when one looks at someone and they start thinking sensual thoughts that are lustful. It's all mental instead of physical.
    ToshDaltheJigsaw
  • @gtaali

    If you scroll down a ways in this "Diets & Habits" section you will see another thread labeled "Celibacy" from back in November 2012. You'll find 2 pages of discussion there you might find interesting. Why not read through that and then clarify any questions you might have at that point (if any) regarding your OP.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I should have specified. I guess I realize what fantasizing and such means, I wasn't sure if the OP meant specifically just that, or an expanded meaning that I might not catch onto so easily.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    blu3ree said:

    Adultery like when one looks at someone and they start thinking sensual thoughts that are lustful. It's all mental instead of physical.

    Are you saying having lustful thoughts about another person when married is adultery?

  • chelachela Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Bunks said:

    blu3ree said:

    Adultery like when one looks at someone and they start thinking sensual thoughts that are lustful. It's all mental instead of physical.

    Are you saying having lustful thoughts about another person when married is adultery?

    I couldn't resist commenting here. I think (and I hope) that Buddhism is not about damning people for having sinful thoughts. My understanding is that we need to be very mindful. Let's be in the 21st century and realize that, through science (anyone watch The Science of Sex?), we know that there are a lot of biological things going on inside of us that we can't always control easily. We can easily control our actions. We don't need to act on every thought that comes up in our minds. That is where mindfulness comes into play. We need to be very mindful of our thoughts in order to make sure we have Right Speech, Right Diligence, and Right Action. But I don't think we need to punish ourselves, either mentally or physically, if we happen to have some kind of lustful thought happen here and there. We are humans, after all, and we are a kind of animal, whether we like to admit it or not.
    Bunks
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited March 2013
    celibacy is part of renunciation, it's something that grows naturally out of practice. This natural dispassion makes it easy to become celibate because you see no real value in being controlled by the senses. It becomes a natural process, not a vow, vows are always meant to be broken because it's the use of force of will.

    I've seen this through my own practice, even though by all accounts I am a very attractive, available male who has plenty of female attention, I've already begun the process of renunciation(and I don't mean becoming a monk, not in this sense anyways) and I feel no desire to need or want a girlfriend or anything of the sort. When I do have female contact its like ah " eh, I suppose since I can, I might as well" and that really does nothing for me. That is not to say that ALL(or even most) desire is gone, the roots are still there, but the more I practice the more I see the futility of chasing after these desires.

    I think this will make it easier for me when/if I am able to follow through with my plan and become a monk. Becoming a monk doesn't mean your sex drive dies automatically lol, there are many monks who disrobe for women, etc... it's all about the renunciation in your own mind.
    seanJohn_Spencer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Yep, I agree. Especially since sin is a product of Christianity and doesn't even really have a place in Buddhism. Where do you draw a line? Is noticing that someone is attractive mentally sexual? Because even the HHDL admits he finds women attractive. Not that he is the only source, of course, he is just the one I thought of first because I saw the interview where this came up not too long ago.
  • @Karasti

    Are you agreeing with @Chela, or with @Jayantha? My first impression was Chela, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion.
  • image
    chela said:

    We are humans, after all, and we are a kind of animal, whether we like to admit it or not.

    As a non celibate, my Lobsterian tendency is to follow any good looking Bodhi and consort with them. Tara for example, what a babe . . .
    As we are on the Middle Way you might restrict your amorous activities to 12:00 and use anaphrodisiacs such as 'monks pepper'.

    :lol:
    BunkschelaToshSillyPutty
  • @Lobster

    What an AWESOME page to color!! Thanks Lobster! :D
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @MaryAnne Yes, I was agreeing with Chela. Jayantha's post wasn't there when I responded, we posted at the same time, lol.
  • Bunks said:

    blu3ree said:

    Adultery like when one looks at someone and they start thinking sensual thoughts that are lustful. It's all mental instead of physical.

    Are you saying having lustful thoughts about another person when married is adultery?

    Yes or when not married.
    Bunks
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited March 2013
    I understand (but don't agree) that some people see it as wrong. But defining it as adultery is flat wrong. Adultery is defined as sex that occurs outside of a marriage. You cannot have someone who is unmarried who has lustful thoughts and call them adulterous. Everyone defines things differently within their own relationship, but for the sake of clarity when dealing with internet forums and the like, generally sticking with the actual definitions is what most people do.
  • FireSongFireSong Explorer
    Good golly, I like sex. I hope I don't have to be celibate...O.O
    lobster
  • Yea I just looked at the definition of adultery should've replaced it with lustful. @karasti

    I think it would fall under right thoughts if one is always horny how can they be content?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Gotcha! I don't think that having a passing lustful thought here and there doesn't mean they are horny all the time. I'm more distracted on a regular basis by lustful thoughts for my husband than I am other men, lol. Married or not, it's most certainly a distraction, but the power of mind over biological body functions is a hard one to beat, I think. It explains some of the reason why so many supposedly celibate priests and others abuse young children. I am not saying simply biology allows anyone who is celibate to be a pedophile, of course. Just saying that if you deny yourself certain biological functions you might be more likely to run into conflicts like that. I do think that what @Jayantha said makes sense. That as a person progresses, they might just naturally find themselves disinterested in that part of life, and that is different to me than someone who takes a vow of celibacy without even really knowing what they are giving up. My teacher took his monk vows at the age of 7. How can you renounce something you don't even understand?
  • robotrobot Veteran
    karasti said:

    Gotcha! I don't think that having a passing lustful thought here and there doesn't mean they are horny all the time. I'm more distracted on a regular basis by lustful thoughts for my husband than I am other men, lol. Married or not, it's most certainly a distraction, but the power of mind over biological body functions is a hard one to beat, I think. It explains some of the reason why so many supposedly celibate priests and others abuse young children. I am not saying simply biology allows anyone who is celibate to be a pedophile, of course. Just saying that if you deny yourself certain biological functions you might be more likely to run into conflicts like that. I do think that what @Jayantha said makes sense. That as a person progresses, they might just naturally find themselves disinterested in that part of life, and that is different to me than someone who takes a vow of celibacy without even really knowing what they are giving up. My teacher took his monk vows at the age of 7. How can you renounce something you don't even understand?

    I think that pedophiles are attracted to the priesthood because it has traditionally offered a place to access children and protection from prosecution. Not so much anymore.
    Or perhaps a pedophile may think that a vow of celibacy will overcome his urges, then finds himself in a position where vulnerable children are available and the temptation is uncontrolable.
    I don't think celibacy is a cause for pedophilia. But I'm no expert on it.
    sean
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @robot, first of all, there are plenty of pedophiles out there elsewhere than in the Catholic Church. You might not be aware that in several Buddhist countries there have also been scandals of the same type by Buddhist monks.

    Second, I don't think that priests have that much contact with children all the time. It's more that they are (or were) trusted figures.

    I do think that you are correct that at least some Catholic pedophile priests probably thought they would be able to better control their urges if they were priests.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited March 2013
    vinlyn said:

    @robot, first of all, there are plenty of pedophiles out there elsewhere than in the Catholic Church. You might not be aware that in several Buddhist countries there have also been scandals of the same type by Buddhist monks.

    Second, I don't think that priests have that much contact with children all the time. It's more that they are (or were) trusted figures.

    I do think that you are correct that at least some Catholic pedophile priests probably thought they would be able to better control their urges if they were priests.

    Sorry. I guess mentioning priesthood gave the impression that I was referring to catholic priests. I should have thought of it, but I was referring to a quote from @karasti.
    For sure I have been on here long enough to have heard my share of criminal acts by Buddhist monks.
    I could have used Boy Scout leaders as an example, having had experience with that problem.
    (Edit) except of course that Boy Scout leaders don't swear a vow of celibacy.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    blu3ree said:

    Yea I just looked at the definition of adultery should've replaced it with lustful. @karasti

    I think it would fall under right thoughts if one is always horny how can they be content?

    Phew!! I was a bit worried then......I am faithful to my wife (in the sense that I haven't slept with anyone else) but I'd be flat out lying if I said that I wasn't attracted sexually to any other woman over the last 7 years!!

  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran
    Give up sex? No way, unless it falls off some day!

    Regarding the mental side of sex, adultery etc, look up emotional infidelity.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    I can't help but giggle when I see the word sex being used in a serious manner :lol:
  • Good golly, I like sex. I hope I don't have to be celibate...O.O
    Keep up the good work.
    In Judaism it is considered a sin not to have sex. Bravo.

    You only need to give it up when having a full brazilian that includes the head and turns you into a nun . . . just be a dakini, life is more fun . . . :clap:
    VastmindFireSong
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited March 2013
    This guy has pretty good videos. :)



    This guy has some good ones too.

  • FireSongFireSong Explorer
    lobster said:


    Keep up the good work.
    In Judaism it is considered a sin not to have sex. Bravo.

    You only need to give it up when having a full brazilian that includes the head and turns you into a nun . . . just be a dakini, life is more fun . . . :clap:

    Only married couples, though, yes? That's not me. I imagine that makes me a sinny sinner.

    I think it would be awhile before I donned the robes and took a razor to my hair, so no worries there, hahah. Dakini, though...hey, tantra!

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I don't think emotional infidelity is the same as having simple passing lustful thoughts. Having an emotional attachment to someone outside of your spouse is different than thinking "oh he's hot" and moving on with life.
    Invincible_summer
  • Bunks said:



    blu3ree said:

    Yea I just looked at the definition of adultery should've replaced it with lustful. @karasti

    I think it would fall under right thoughts if one is always horny how can they be content?

    Phew!! I was a bit worried then......I am faithful to my wife (in the sense that I haven't slept with anyone else) but I'd be flat out lying if I said that I wasn't attracted sexually to any other woman over the last 7 years!!

    What's important is to not feed the urges.
    DaltheJigsaw
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    This guy has pretty good videos. :)



    This guy has some good ones too.

    Ajahn Brahm says that Celibates are the last group that needs to be accepted because people think they are abnormal lol.. Fight for celibate rights!
    Invincible_summer
  • BrianBrian Detroit, MI Moderator
    I think if you deliberately set out to be celibate, you will encounter a great deal of suffering because you are going to constantly be fighting your natural urges and you will be beating yourself up over it.

    I think that if celibacy is a natural side-effect of your path, then that is also something to not get worked up over.

    The middle path, friend.
    BhikkhuJayasaraInvincible_summerZeroStraight_Man
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    yup thanks brian
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Brian said:

    I think if you deliberately set out to be celibate, you will encounter a great deal of suffering because you are going to constantly be fighting your natural urges and you will be beating yourself up over it.

    I think that if celibacy is a natural side-effect of your path, then that is also something to not get worked up over.

    The middle path, friend.

    I agree that in most things the middle path is most logical. But should we not do something because we might suffer?

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    FireSong said:


    Only married couples, though, yes? That's not me. I imagine that makes me a sinny sinner.

    No, you're thinking of Christianity.
    For Buddhists, the third precept just tells us to abstain from Sexual Misconduct.
    Eg: That's things like rape, or having sex which will harm ourselves or others, etc. So sex outside marriage is fine, as long as it's not harmful to anyone.
  • I'd start with contemplating the repulsiveness of the body. If you go through the parts, you'll find sex much less appealing. Detach yourself from the notion of it being a person, and think of the body as a heap of flesh.
    BhanteLuckysean
  • Awakening said:

    I'd start with contemplating the repulsiveness of the body. If you go through the parts, you'll find sex much less appealing. Detach yourself from the notion of it being a person, and think of the body as a heap of flesh.


    I ..... I just don't even know where to begin with this..... what a sad way to view life - and fellow humans - as something 'repulsive'.
    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    Awakening said:

    I'd start with contemplating the repulsiveness of the body. If you go through the parts, you'll find sex much less appealing. Detach yourself from the notion of it being a person, and think of the body as a heap of flesh.


    I ..... I just don't even know where to begin with this..... what a sad way to view life - and fellow humans - as something 'repulsive'.
    True. Except for feet. Yuck! :D
    Invincible_summer
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited March 2013
    MaryAnne said:

    Awakening said:

    I'd start with contemplating the repulsiveness of the body. If you go through the parts, you'll find sex much less appealing. Detach yourself from the notion of it being a person, and think of the body as a heap of flesh.


    I ..... I just don't even know where to begin with this..... what a sad way to view life - and fellow humans - as something 'repulsive'.
    MaryAnne, it's not viewing humans as repulsive, it's viewing the body (we are not the body) as repulsive; weird sounding I know, but useful for monastics wishing to abstain from sex. It's just a mental tool, it's not designed to produce hatred or anything.

    And personally, I find contemplating the repulsiveness of the body quite a sexy meditation. That really works for me if you know what I mean, nudge, nudge, wink, wink!

    Sabby
  • The Buddha made it very clear that seeing bodies of flesh as "attractive/beautiful" was a form of delusion.
    blu3reeSabby
  • LOOK! LOOK!! LOL ;)

    :::: shows @Vinlyn her cute, plump feet ::::
    vinlynriverflow
  • That doesn't mean that you can't see the qualities of a person's mind as beautiful- but that you shouldn't be sexually enticed by a "foul" body.
    blu3ree
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    LOOK! LOOK!! LOL ;)

    :::: shows @Vinlyn her cute, plump feet ::::

    Oh, look at that little piggy going wee wee wee wee, all the way home.

    MaryAnneriverflow
  • Sorry Awakening.... but that there is classic, religiously fundamentalist body shaming and denial of perfectly NORMAL human sexual needs and drives.

    And - whether you know it or acknowledge it or not - those archaic instructions to view the human body as 'foul,' dirty, repulsive, shameful or sinful in order to resist normal desires, is all based in caveman level religiously based misogyny. Because it's always aimed at the OTHER person (99% of the time an evil female temptress) being repulsive and foul....

    lobsterBrian
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Awakening said:

    The Buddha made it very clear that seeing bodies of flesh as "attractive/beautiful" was a form of delusion.

    and in the same vein, those who believe they should 'trick' their minds into denial, and claim celibacy brings them closer to god/buddhahood/sainthood, are also deluded.


    lobsterTheswingisyellowBrian
  • I think you're adding a lot that I don't assume. First of all, contemplating the repulsiveness of the body isn't misogynist. It's first line of use is aimed at one's own body so that one lessens attachment to it.

    The Buddha taught that his teaching went "against" the stream. If you want to follow that stream and call it normal, healthy, etc., then go for it. If you want to follow the Buddha's path to Awakening, then I suggest a mindful analysis of the body into its constituent parts to show that there is no need to lust after one's own body or that of another.
    Invincible_summerBhanteLuckyBhikkhuJayasaraSabby
  • What you see as beautiful is merely an aggregated effect. It's not about tricking your mind, it's about clear seeing. When the body is seen clearly, there is no lust for it.
    Invincible_summer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Awakening said:

    I'd start with contemplating the repulsiveness of the body. If you go through the parts, you'll find sex much less appealing. Detach yourself from the notion of it being a person, and think of the body as a heap of flesh.


    Interestingly, that's what a lot of sexual predators and serial killers do.

    Buddha also said to avoid onion and garlic (among other vegetables) because they were aphrodisiacs and excite the senses. We now know that both of them have good health benefits.
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