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Have I Realized Anatta?

BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
edited July 2013 in Philosophy
Hello, everyone. I've been thinking a lot about anatta recently. I realize most people are of the opinion that anatta isn't something you can come to realize through analyzing it, but I seem to be unable to learn that lesson because I can't stop trying. Anyway, I've written out a conversation that is essentially an internal conversation I had with myself. For convenience, I've put it in the form of a student and a teacher having a dialogue. I'd like anyone who is willing to read it and tell me what I think. Have I figured out anatta, or am I at least close?

I realize that not everything in the discussion below is concrete, and that many of the assertions are controversial (particularly material monism and determinism), so please keep in mind that these are only my latest thoughts in a continually evolving stream of consciousness in my attempt to understand anatta. I think I'm pretty close. Thanks in advance for any input!

-----------------------

Student: Teacher, recently I’ve come across the Buddhist doctrine of anatta. I’ve been studying Buddhism for months now and everything has been so easy to understand; but anatta just continues to elude me.

Teacher: Do your best to try and explain to me your current understanding of anatta.

Student: Well, from what I can grasp, anatta seems to teach that I don’t really exist.

Teacher: That’s essentially correct. There is nothing you can truly call “you,” and therefore, you don’t exist. The existence of “self” is nothing more than an illusion.

Student: An illusion?

Teacher: Yes. The illusion of “self” is born out of the five aggregates. When form, feelings, perceptions, mental formulations, and consciousness are combined into a single organism, it gives rise to the illusion of “self.”

Student: Well, I can see how I’m not my feelings or perceptions -- that seems quite obvious; but I’m not so sure about form, mental formulations, or consciousness. I tend to think that I am indeed those things.

Teacher: Well, let’s investigate that thought. We’ll go through each of those three aggregates one by one and see if they can qualify as your true self; but first we must establish what a “true self” is.

Student: It’s hard to describe, but I believe my true self would be the thinker behind my thoughts, the agent or entity that ultimately controls my will and actions.

Teacher: Very well, now let’s go through each of the three aggregates you’re concerned about and see if we can find what you’ve described in any of them. Let’s start with form, or your physical body.

Student: Alright.

Teacher: You must realize that the whole of your body is composed of approximately 75 trillion individual cells! These cells are independent life forms. They perform their individual functions, replicate, die, and get replaced all on their own. Now, if your body can be reduced to nothing more than independent cellular life forms which are separate and distinct from what you call your “true self” is it reasonable to suggest that your body is your true self?

Student: I suppose not.

Teacher: Very good. Let’s move on to mental formulations, or your thought processes.

Student: Okay.

Teacher: Many individuals falsely believe that they control their thought processes; however, advances in neuroscience have suggested otherwise. Experiments conducted by Dr. Haynes have found that neuroscientists can accurately predict a decision someone will make before they even become consciously aware of that decision.

Student: How so?

Teacher: Participants in Dr. Hayne’s study were placed in front of a button and told they could press the button with either their left or right hand. During the experiment, all participants were hooked up to an fMRI machine and their brain processes were examined in real time. What the neuroscientists found is that they could accurately predict which hand the participants would chose to push the button with up to 7 seconds before the participants even became consciously aware of their decision [1].

Student: So what you’re saying is that an individual’s unconscious brain determines what an individual will choose to do before they even become conscious of that decision?

Teacher: Yes. The evidence from neuroscience suggests that individual decisions are made in the neuronal regions of the brain long before such decisions even reach a person’s conscious awareness. This also seems to strongly challenge the idea of free will.

Student: There’s no free will?

Teacher: Of course not. How can that which doesn’t exist have free will? Again, the existence of a “self” is an illusion born out of the five aggregates. There isn’t actually any “self” to have free will in the first place. In fact, other experiments have been conducted by neuroscientists in which participants were asked to perform a certain function, such as raising one of their hands while a particular region of their brain was stimulated. When neuroscientists would stimulate the right side of an individual’s brain, they would raise their left arm 80% of the time, despite the fact they were right handed. When the right side of the brain was stimulated, the opposite effect occurred; however, participants thought they had chosen with their own free will which hand to raise, therefore further demonstrating the illusion of free will.

Student: What about consciousness? Even though there is apparently no free will, and even though the brain makes all of my decisions for me before I ever become consciously aware of them, isn’t it possible that my true self is simply the awareness?

Teacher: If dualism (the belief that the brain and mind are separate entities) is correct, then yes, it is possible that your true self might be the conscious aspect of the mind; however, all evidence seems to suggest that consciousness is not something separate from the brain; rather, consciousness is simply a higher level process of the brain itself.

Student: What do you mean?

Teacher: For example, it is well known that an individual’s conscious awareness can be altered simply by altering the physical brain. Drugs and brain damage are obvious examples of this. The fact that conscious awareness can be altered simply by tampering with the physical brain suggests that consciousness is a product of the brain.

Student: So consciousness is just the brain being aware of itself?

Teacher: Essentially, yes. The fact that the brain (which is composed of independent living cells and chemical reactions that perform functions and make decisions without your conscious awareness) is the cause of consciousness makes it quite evident that you can’t truly be said consciousness; to say otherwise is to say that you are your brain, for consciousness is only but an aspect of the brain, and to say that you are your brain is to say that you are the individual cells and chemical reactions which compose it, which you obviously are not.

Student: I see. I think I finally understand anatta. I obviously can’t be any of the aggregates, seeing as how all five can be reduced to things which I am not. My existence is an illusion born out of a culmination of the five aggregates, but when they are separated, I see that there isn’t even one that I can call “me.”

Teacher: Now you understand.

[1] http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html
AlexIsAwesome
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Comments

  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Echoing @seeker242:

    Thich Nhat Hanh, from The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching:

    "In his first Dharma talk, the Buddha cautioned his disciples not to be attached to either bhava or abhava, being or nonbeing, because bhava and abhava are just constructs of the mind. Reality is somewhere in between... If you say that the purpose of the practice is to destroy being in order to arrive at non-being, this is entirely incorrect. With nonattachment, we see both being and nonbeing as creations of our own mind, and we ride the wave of birth and death... Let us not present the teaching of the Buddha as an attempt to escape from life and go to nothingness or nonbeing."

    If you approach anatta as the nonbeing of self (i.e. the opposite of the being of a self), then you've simply replaced one dualistic assertion with another. Both represent the two extremes of eternalism and nihilism which merely exist on opposite ends of the same conceptual continuum. The Middle Path asserts neither extreme.
    karmabluesForuiliveSilouancvalue
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    things are, but not the way we think they are.
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • Nek777Nek777 Explorer
    Can someone have a realization of anatta without an intellectual understanding of anatta?
  • Sabre said:


    It seems a common thing that people think they can get insight into these kinds of things if they just think it through hard enough. But it's not like that. The Buddha made it clear on many occasions that insight is through clearing the mind and not through reasoning.

    I have to disagree with him on that point. I think they're two different paths to insight. I've had glimpses of the hollow nature of things spontaneously, with a "clear mind", but equally I've had glimpses through reasoning and deep thought. They're different but similar, the former being more like a feeling the latter more like an epiphany of understanding.

    lobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2013
    The problem with trying to realize anatta is, those faculties that you are utilizing to try to realize anatta are in the employ of that which has made a life for itself through the denial of anatta. Your betting against Vegas in a game that is already rigged in favor of the house.

    To the degree that you play with the house is the degree to which anatta is obscured....and to the degree that you don't empower the house is the same degree to which the delusion of you possessing a soul simply dissipates.
    riverflowInvincible_summercvalue
  • The characteristic of not-self which manifests and can be observed is its uncontrollable nature. That is why the Buddha said in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta that since form/feeling/perception/mental formation/consciousness is not-self, it is not possible for one to make form/feeling/perception/mental formations/consciousness to be a certain way or not be a certain way in accordance to one's wishes.

    In the Buddha's words:
    "Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

    "Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, mental formations are not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
    So the various examples you gave does indeed show that form, mental formations and consciousness are not-self by pointing to their uncontrollable nature. So when you say that the body comprises of independent cells, that proves this point. Can we tell our cells to always function properly and not develop cancer or cause us to age because this makes us suffer and we don't want to suffer? No, the cells will not listen to our wishes and they will cause us to develop cancer or age in accordance to their causes and conditions despite whatever we may desire. Therefore, the body cannot be considered as "mine" or "myself" or "I".

    This would be the same for your other examples regarding the fact that there are studies which suggest that thought processes are made in neuronal regions of the brain that are beyond a person's conscious control. Similarly with the fact that what affects the brain can affect our consciousness. These examples point to the fact that mental formations and consciousness are not actually within one's control and thus cannot be considered as "mine" or "myself" or "I"

    Silouan
  • I just want to add to my comment above that while the examples you give do point to the characteristic of anatta, they are useful only for an intellectual understanding of anatta. During meditation, insight into anatta can develop by our examination of the arising and ceasing of the five aggregrates and how the nature of their arising and ceasing are not truly within our control.

    Nonethless, some teachers do regard intellectual understanding as a useful guideline to develop true insight. Eg. Bhikkhu Bodhi:
    These universal characteristics [not-self, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness] have to be understood in two stages: first intellectually, by reflection; and thereafter by direct insight or realisation through insight meditation. When we explain these intellectually, we should not make this a substitute for practice, but only take it as a guideline for understanding what has to be seen by the actual practice of insight meditation.
    riverflowBodhivakaSilouanFlorian
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    riverflow said:


    "If you approach anatta as the nonbeing of self (i.e. the opposite of the being of a self), then you've simply replaced one dualistic assertion with another. Both represent the two extremes of eternalism and nihilism which merely exist on opposite ends of the same conceptual continuum. The Middle Path asserts neither extreme.

    As I understand it, the reason the Buddha rejected nihilism/annihilationism is because there is no self to be annihilated in the first place. Annihilationism requires the existence of a self, which is wrong view.

    That which never existed cannot be annihilated.

    Perhaps my understanding on this matter is mistaken, but it seems to make sense.
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    If we don't have a self, how do we escape from these five aggregates? They don't sound good. Maybe our true self is not the aggregates. So far it sounds like when the aggregates drop dead that's nirvana. Everyone who dies attains nirvana. Maybe suicide is the answer. I read somewhere that the Buddha went into seclusion for two weeks then, when he came back, a lot of monks had committed suicide encouraged by his sermon before he left.

  • Bodhivaka said:


    As I understand it, the reason the Buddha rejected nihilism/annihilationism is because there is no self to be annihilated in the first place. Annihilationism requires the existence of a self, which is wrong view.

    That which never existed cannot be annihilated.

    Perhaps my understanding on this matter is mistaken, but it seems to make sense.

    What we experience cannot fit neatly into the categories of being and nonbeing. We speak and think in binary, but we actually cannot quantify our experience. When we do, we falsify it because concepts intervene and draw us away from the reality we live and in which we participate. Along with such dualistic categories comes the notion of a separate, permanent self.

    Buddhism does not deny the reality we live, but rather the myopic metaphysical categories with habitually superimpose upon it. The independent and unchanging self does not exist, but neither does it NOT not-exist. Dualistic metaphysical categories distort our experience, creating all the delusions that bring about dukkha.

    @misecmisc1 above said it succinctly: "things are, but not the way we think they are."

    I posted something in another thread which relates to what "illusory" means, which does not merely mean "does not exist":
    Re: the idea of the self as "illusion." The notion of a separate, permanent, essentialized self represents the extreme of eternalism. Nihilism represents the other extreme, where "I" (however defined) does not exist. And both views rely on the notion (however contradictory) of positing this "self" entity as something one can stand outside of and examine.

    "Illusory" doesn't mean "does not exist" but rather points to our mis-perception of a event which we then interpret as a separate, permanent, essentialized self.

    If you have ever driven on a long stretch on a highway, off in the distance you'll see a mirage, usually what appears as a liquid-like, dark, shadowy substance. As the car appears to approach this illusory substance, it melts away and you only see the ordinary highway. This used to fascinate me as a child when my parents or grandparents would drive.

    The interaction between (1) the light, (2) the angle of the road, (3) the distance involved, and (4) my eyes (and many other factors) the event does reside entirely in the imagination. But the event mis-interpreted makes it a mirage. The eyes really see this event occurring, but our minds make it into this illusory substance.

    What we call the "self" works in a similar way. By not taking into account all the other factors that made this phenomenon arise, separating it from everything else, the mirage only seems "real."

    In other words, the illusoriness (is that a real word??) of a mirage lies not "out there" but in the mind, in how we mis-perceive actual phenomena. So the "I" does its "I" thing, but not in the way that we imagine it-- not as a separate, permanent, essentialized self.

    The Middle Way does not fall to either extreme of eternalism or nihilism. Both rely on the notion of stepping outside of oneself to examine oneself, like an eyeball trying to see itself. The method of the Middle Way uses experiential insight (via meditation & mindfulness) to examine not the phenomenon, but the mind that (mis-)interprets the phenomenon.
    Linguistically speaking, we can only point to what we should NOT confuse anatta with. It helps to clear the ground so as to avoid further confusion. But we cannot state it in positive, definitive terms. That can only come via real-ization of insight-- not more concepts. At best they serve a provisional purpose only. I think this explains why the Buddha did often resort to "Noble Silence" when other pressed such metaphysically framed questions. Buddhism addresses metaphysics only in order to deconstruct it, and in doing so, to real-ize a nondual reality we experience but entirely misunderstand.

    At any rate, I currently understand it in this way.
    robotFlorian
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Blondel said:

    If we don't have a self, how do we escape from these five aggregates? They don't sound good.

    @Blondel, according to my understanding, asking how you can escape the aggregates assumes there is something to escape in the first place, which is incorrect. The self only seems to exist, much like a mirage seems to exist; however, the fact of the matter is that neither the self nor the mirage actually exist in objective morality; they are simply ontologically subjective illusions created by the aggregates.

    Therefore, to say that you can "escape" the aggregates is like saying a mirage can "escape" reality; it was never actually there to escape in the first place, it was the aggregates which produced the illusion of its existence.
    Blondel said:

    So far it sounds like when the aggregates drop dead that's nirvana. Everyone who dies attains nirvana. Maybe suicide is the answer. I read somewhere that the Buddha went into seclusion for two weeks then, when he came back, a lot of monks had committed suicide encouraged by his sermon before he left.

    As I see it, destroying the aggregates (ie, suicide) would in fact end the illusion of self, and as I am a naturalist/physicalist who is skeptical of literal rebirth, I believe it would also end suffering; therefore, I believe a reasonable case could be made that the "breaking up of the body" as the Buddha called it, is equivalent to Nirvana; however, I also believe that the illusion of self and suffering can be overcome without destroying the aggregates, thereby making suicide/death unnecessary to attain Nirvana.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2013
    When the Buddha talked about the Dhamma avoiding the views of being and non-being he always explained the middle Dhamma is dependent origination, not some middle way between self and no self. This illustrates being and non-being are not statements meaning self and no-self. To me he quite obviously denied existence of the self in other places. So being means "I exist" and non-being means "I don't exist". Both are in terms of an I, so both are wrong.

    This sutta below is quite illustrative of this topic. Starting off with somebody who did try to understand the Dhamma in terms of thought, but did not really see the Dhamma. Then Ananda quited the Buddha explaining dependent origination.
    Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released[1] in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?"

    [....]

    "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

    [....]

    "'"Everything exists": That is one extreme. "Everything doesn't exist": That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.


    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.090.than.html
    riverflowBodhivakakarmabluesseeker242
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2013
    A worldly view is the manifestation of a belief in a self that separates itself from the everything else.
    The transcendence of any of that self results in proportionately experiencing the waking up from the self's dream world.

    Those suiciding monks were thinking that the death of the self was the same as it's transcendence which is MISTAKEN because the death of a dreaming self brings no awaking from the dream whereas transcending it does.
    riverflowlobster
  • how said:

    Those suiciding monks were thinking that the death of the self was the same as it's transcendence which is MISTAKEN because the death of a dreaming self brings no awaking from the dream whereas transcending it does.

    Perhaps my views are flawed, but the best conclusion I have reached at the moment is that the only "dream" is that the self exists at all; therefore, there can be no "death of a dreaming self" seeing as how the self doesn't actually exist, there can only be the death of the aggregates which produce the illusion of self. That which does not exist cannot awaken from or transcend anything.

    I realize this view raises very difficult questions, particularly concerning enlightenment and how it can happen if there is nothing to become enlightened in the first place, but I nevertheless feel confident in the soundness of my position, despite the existence of some (what are for me at the moment) unanswerable questions.
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    Bodhivaka said:

    Blondel said:

    If we don't have a self, how do we escape from these five aggregates? They don't sound good.

    @Blondel, according to my understanding, asking how you can escape the aggregates assumes there is something to escape in the first place, which is incorrect. The self only seems to exist, much like a mirage seems to exist; however, the fact of the matter is that neither the self nor the mirage actually exist in objective morality; they are simply ontologically subjective illusions created by the aggregates.

    Therefore, to say that you can "escape" the aggregates is like saying a mirage can "escape" reality; it was never actually there to escape in the first place, it was the aggregates which produced the illusion of its existence.
    Blondel said:

    So far it sounds like when the aggregates drop dead that's nirvana. Everyone who dies attains nirvana. Maybe suicide is the answer. I read somewhere that the Buddha went into seclusion for two weeks then, when he came back, a lot of monks had committed suicide encouraged by his sermon before he left.

    As I see it, destroying the aggregates (ie, suicide) would in fact end the illusion of self, and as I am a naturalist/physicalist who is skeptical of literal rebirth, I believe it would also end suffering; therefore, I believe a reasonable case could be made that the "breaking up of the body" as the Buddha called it, is equivalent to Nirvana; however, I also believe that the illusion of self and suffering can be overcome without destroying the aggregates, thereby making suicide/death unnecessary to attain Nirvana.
    Sorry to repeat myself, but it sounds like when the aggregates drop dead that's nirvana. Everyone who dies attains nirvana. This sounds like what Ven. Walpola Rahula teaches.
    “An Arahant after his death is often compared to a fire gone out when the supply of wood is over, or to the flame of a lamp gone out when the wick and oil are finished. Here it should be clearly and distinctly understood, without any confusion, that what is compared to a flame or a fire gone out is not Nirvana, but the ‘being’ composed of the Five Aggregates who realized Nirvana” (Rahula, What the Buddha Taught, 41–42).
    I read him as saying the being basically equals the Five Aggregates. When the aggregates go, that's nirvana. But isn't this the view of nihilism or naturalism? :-/
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Sorry to repeat myself, but it sounds like when the aggregates drop dead that's nirvana. Everyone who dies attains nirvana.
    @Blondel, if we are to define Nirvava as the end of suffering (which I do) then yes, the destruction of the aggregates (death) would produce a state of Nirvana.
    I read [Ven. Walpola Rahula] as saying the being basically equals the Five Aggregates. When the aggregates go, that's nirvana. But isn't this the view of nihilism or naturalism? :-/
    You are right that there is no "being" or "self" that exists as a separate or distinct entity apart from the five aggregates; when the aggregates are destroyed so is the illusion of existence, or "self."

    Nihilism teaches that a self is annihilated, but that teaching is incorrect because according to anatta there was never a "self" to be annihilated in the first place. A "self" doesn't exist anymore than a mirage exists; it's only an illusion produced by the five aggregates. You cannot destroy a mirage, you can only realize that it was never actually there to begin with.

    If the aggregates "drop dead" then there is nothing to produce the illusion of "self," which would result in the end of suffering, which (in my view) is Nirvana.

    Some may mistakenly say that destroying the aggregates will make you "stop existing," but that view is incorrect only because you never existed in the first place. That which never existed cannot stop existing.
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited July 2013
    The full quote from What the Buddha Taught by Ven. Walpola Rahula reads:
    An Arahant after his death is often compared to a fire gone out when the supply of wood is over, or to the flame of a lamp gone out when the wick and oil are finished. Here it should be clearly and distinctly understood, without any confusion, that what is compared to a flame or a fire gone out is not Nirvāna, but the 'being' composed of the Five Aggregates who realized Nirvāna. This point has to be emphasized because many people, even some great scholars, have misunderstood and misinterpreted this smile as referring to Nirvāna. Nirvāna is never compared to a fire or a lamp gone out.
    So Ven. Walpola clearly emphasized that Nirvana is not the same as the fire or lamp gone out, something which he says is often misunderstood. What "goes out" at the time of death are the five aggregates of someone who has achieved Nirvana, but that is not the same as saying that when the five aggregates break up, Nirvana is achieved. That is why Ven. Walopola stressed that "Nirvana is never compared to a fire or a lamp gone out."

    I will try to explain it this way, using the simile of the lamp. The simile of the lamp has been used to describe rebirth in the Milinda Panha, as follows:
    The king said: 'Where there is no transmigration, Nâgasena, can there be rebirth?'

    'Yes, there can.'

    'But how can that be? Give me an illustration.'

    'Suppose a man, O king, were to light a lamp from another lamp, can it be said that the one transmigrates from, or to, the other?'

    'Certainly not.'

    'Just so, great king, is rebirth without transmigration.'
    Here, we see that it is the flame of a lamp which causes rebirth because in the case of an unenlightened being, the causes for the existence of the flame has not been extinguished and thus at the time of death, the flame is passed on to another lamp which is rebirth (without transmigration). So there is a further existence after death, albeit no transmigration.

    However, in the case of an arahant (an enlightened being), it is said that the flame goes out at the break up of the aggregrates because the arahant has extinguished ignorance which is the cause of birth (per the dependent origination theory). Therefore, at the time of death, the flame of the lamp has already been extinguished and therefore, there is no rebirth in contrast to the case of the unenlightened being who still has ignorance. So the significance of the simile that "an Arahant after his death is often compared to a fire gone out when the supply of wood is over, or to the flame of a lamp gone out when the wick and oil are finished" is simply to point out that as ignorance (the cause of rebirth) has been extinguished, there is thus no future existence for an Arahant after his/her death. So it is not saying that death produces Nirvana.

    In fact, earlier in the same Chapter, Ven. Walopola clearly states the following (capitalization is from the original text, not mine):
    Nirvāna is not the result of anything. If it would be a result, then it would be an effect produced by a cause. It would be samkhata 'produced' and 'conditioned'. Nirvāna is neither cause nor effect. It is beyond cause and effect. Truth is not a result nor an effect. It is not produced like a mystic, spiritual, mental state, such as dhyāna or samādhi. TRUTH IS. NIRVĀNA IS. The only thing you can do is to see it, to realize it. There is a path leading to the realization of Nirvāna. But Nirvāna is not the result of this path. You may get to the mountain along a path, but the mountain is not the result, not an effect of the path. You may see a light, but the light not the result of your eyesight.
    So, Ven. Walopola also clearly explains that as Nirvana is unconditioned, it is not an effect produced by a cause. So, it would be incorrect to say that "the destruction of the aggregates produces a state of Nirvana". Nirvana is thus something which is there to be realized and is not produced by anything.

    In the Milinda Panha, the above is explained as follows:
    "Then, Nagasena, is Nirvana unconditioned?"

    "So it is, O King, unconditioned is Nirvana, not made by anything. Of Nirvana one cannot say that it is produced, or unproduced, or that it should be produced; that it is past, or present, or future; or that one can become aware of it by the eye, or the ear, or the nose, or the tongue, or the body."

    "In that case, Nagasena, you indicate Nirvana as a dharma which is not, and Nirvana does not exist."

    "Nirvana is something which is recognizable by the mind. A holy disciple, who has followed the right road, sees Nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded and disinterested."
    Now if one were to ask what is exactly the nature of Nirvana? In the closing paragraphs of the same Chapter, Ven. Walopola gives this advice:
    Nirvāna is beyond all terms of duality and relativity. It is therefore beyond our conceptions of good and evil, right and wrong, existence and non-existence.... Nirvāna is beyond logic and reasoning (atakkāvacara). However much we may engage, often as a vain intellectual pastime, in highly speculative discussions regarding Nirvāna or Ultimate Truth or Reality, we shall never understand it that way. A child in the kindergarten should not quarrel about the theory of relativity. Instead, if he allows his studies patiently and diligently, one day he may understand it. Nirvāna is 'to be realized by the wise within themselves' (paccattam veditabbo viňňūhi). If we follow the Path patiently and with diligence, train and purify ourselves earnestly, and attain the necessary spiritual development, we may one day realize it within ourselves- without taxing ourselves with puzzling and high- sounding words.
    riverflowrobotFlorian
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    So what does the Buddha mean by this?
    "Suppose, bhikkhus, people were to carry off the grass, sticks, branches, and foliage in the Jeta's Grove, or to burn them, or to do with them as they wish. Would you think: 'People are carrying us off, or burning us, or doing with us as they wish?
    "No, venerable sir. For what reason? Because, venerable sir, that is neither our self nor what belong to our self
    "So too, bhikkhus, form is not yours ... consciousness is not yours: abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness" Samyutta Nikaya
    It seems now the Buddha is saying the Five Aggregates are like a burning pile of rubbish which we should not regard as ours. He seems to imply we are apart from the aggregates :-/
  • Blondel said:

    So what does the Buddha mean by this?

    "Suppose, bhikkhus, people were to carry off the grass, sticks, branches, and foliage in the Jeta's Grove, or to burn them, or to do with them as they wish. Would you think: 'People are carrying us off, or burning us, or doing with us as they wish?
    "No, venerable sir. For what reason? Because, venerable sir, that is neither our self nor what belong to our self
    "So too, bhikkhus, form is not yours ... consciousness is not yours: abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness" Samyutta Nikaya
    It seems now the Buddha is saying the Five Aggregates are like a burning pile of rubbish which we should not regard as ours. He seems to imply we are apart from the aggregates :-/

    In my opinion, you are right to say that we are not the aggregates. The aggregates, when combined, give rise to the illusion of "self."

    For example, a mirage is an illusion created by a culmination of two aggregates in particular, namely mental formations and perception; likewise the "self" is an illusion created by a culmination of all five aggregates, or least three of them (form, mental formulations, and consciousness.)

    Just as a mirage is an illusion created by the aggregates that only seems to exist, but doesn't, so too is the self an illusion created by the aggregates that only seems to exist, but doesn't.

    It is somewhat incorrect to say that "we are apart from the aggregates" because that seems to imply that there is some kind of "true self" that is separate and distinct from them. In my view, there is no self at all, there is only the illusion of "self" born out of a combination of the five aggregates.

  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Blondel, in the quote you provided, the Buddha is saying that the five aggregates are "neither our self nor what belong to our self". I don't see any suggestion that he is saying "we are apart from the aggregates"
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Ven. Walpola clearly emphasized that Nirvana is not the same as the fire or lamp gone out, something which he says is often misunderstood. What "goes out" at the time of death are the five aggregates of someone who has achieved Nirvana, but that is not the same as saying that when the five aggregates break up, Nirvana is achieved.
    Yes, I am aware that my interpretation of Nirvana is a minority view, but unlike most Buddhists, I am a material monist and physicalist, as such, my understanding of Buddhist doctrines (especially things like rebirth, karma, enlightenment, and Nirvana) tend to be biased in favor of materialist, naturalist, and/or allegorical interpretation; therefore, in my view, death would result in the same thing for an Arahant as it would for anyone else -- destruction of the aggregates, and therefore destruction of suffering (my definition of Nirvana).
    We see that it is the flame of a lamp which causes rebirth because in the case of an unenlightened being, the causes for the existence of the flame has not been extinguished and thus at the time of death, the flame is passed on to another lamp which is rebirth (without transmigration). So there is a further existence after death, albeit no transmigration.
    In the case of an arahant (an enlightened being), it is said that the flame goes out at the break up of the aggregrates because the arahant has extinguished ignorance which is the cause of birth (per the dependent origination theory). Therefore, at the time of death, the flame of the lamp has already been extinguished and therefore, there is no rebirth in contrast to the case of the unenlightened being who still has ignorance.
    Our difference in view here stems from our apparently differing views on the nature of reality. I reject both literal rebirth and dualism; therefore, in my view, whether an individual attains enlightenment or not, he or she will enter into Nirvana following the break up of the aggregates. In my opinion, attaining enlightenment simply allows an individual to enter into a state of Nirvana before the breakup of the body; however, Nirvana is an inevitable destination for everyone at the time of death, enlightened or not.

    Again, I realize this is an unorthodox and controversial view, and perhaps it may change in the future, but for now it suffices me.
    Ven. Walopola also clearly explains that as Nirvana is unconditioned, it is not an effect produced by a cause. So, it would be incorrect to say that "the destruction of the aggregates produces a state of Nirvana". Nirvana is thus something which is there to be realized and is not produced by anything.
    In my opinion, Nirvana is the attainment of an individual state of non-suffering produced as result of enlightenment. Again, my views aren't orthodox, but they make more sense to me personally than any other view I've come across.
  • It seems now the Buddha is saying the Five Aggregates are like a burning pile of rubbish which we should not regard as ours. He seems to imply we are apart from the aggregates
    Basically nothing belong to or is us and we are to let go of everything, not find something else to identify with not even the consciousness apart from the aggregates.
    "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

    "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html
    seeker242riverflow
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Nirvana is but a state of mind!
    The mind reaches a state of knowing, whereby it then understands the laws of nature, the universal law or Dharma.

    It understands the very essence of all phenomena, hence enlightenment. A fully enlightened mind produces Buddhahood.

    The mind only concept clearly explains it.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Bodhivaka said:

    In my opinion, Nirvana is the attainment of an individual state of non-suffering produced as result of enlightenment. Again, my views aren't orthodox, but they make more sense to me personally than any other view I've come across.

    I respect your unorthodox position especially because I've held it for a long time.

    Now pardon me for not having the exact quote in the suttas, but the Buddha praised those believing in annihilation (I mean the materialistic sense you are talking about) as the 'best among second views' in a sense that it leads to an acceptance of cessation, which is nearly a synonym for nirvana.

    Recognize that he is talking from a sense of practice; he did not call it the right view. So what I would recommend is using your current view as a base for practice, not as a fixed view where things end. There are many other aspects to the Dhamma other than anatta and these are to be experienced as well. You can't take aside one aspect and only understand that.

    And remember that the Buddha said the 8-fold path leads to the end of suffering, not suicide. :D
    riverflowpegembara
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    The Samanupassana Sutta has a good guideline to go by:

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.than.html
    At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or brahmans who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

    "He assumes feeling to be the self,
    "He assumes perception to be the self,
    "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self
    "He assumes consciousness to be the self

    "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the appearance of the five faculties — eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch).

    "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.'

    "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) — 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' — do not occur to him."
    So if any of the ideas "I exist, I don't exist, I neither exist nor not exist" or any variation thereof occurs. The fact that these ideas are still occurring is proof that one has yet to realize it. The whole idea of existence and non-existence becomes completely irrelevant. To one who has realized it, thoughts about existence "does not occur to him". Because it's a question that is "inappropriate for attention". In giving his most detailed explanation of appropriate attention (MN 2), he starts with examples of inappropriate attention, which center on questions of identity and existence: "Do I exist?" "Do I not?" "What am I?" "Did I exist in the past?" "Will I exist in the future?" These questions are inappropriate because they lead to "a wilderness of views, a thicket of views" such as "I have a self," or "I have no self," all of which lead to entanglement, and none to the end of suffering.

    Also reminds me of this:
    "Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' [13]

    "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.
    And the interesting footnote:
    13: Annihilationism is one of the two extremes of wrong view criticized most heavily by the Buddha (the other is eternalism, as represented by the sixth of the six view-positions). Some interpreters, citing this passage, have tried to limit the meaning of annihilationism simply to the idea of the annihilation of an existing being. The teaching that there is no self, they then argue, does not count as annihilationism because there is no self to be annihilated. This interpretation ignores SN 44.10, which counts the statement "there is no self" as siding with annihilationism.

    As for the term, "existing being": SN 22.36 and SN 23.2 state that a being is defined by his/her/its objects of clinging. SN 5.10 indicates that one of the ways of overcoming clinging is to focus on how the concept of "being" arises, without assuming the truth of the concept. And as MN 72, SN 22.85, and SN 22.86 maintain, when clinging is gone, one is called not a being but a tathagata — who, freed from clinging, cannot be classified as or identified with anything at all.
    SN 44.10
    "Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — I were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.

    One of the good way to practice Buddhism is to keep reevaluating your own views, rather than to keep solidifying them. To keep an open mind rather than a closed mind. :)




    riverflowFullCirclepegembararobot
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Sometimes we focus so much on what self isn't that nihilism seems like the logical conclusion and so giving a damn seems silly.

    I always think of TNHs' poem "Call Me by my True Names" when somebody is contemplating this conundrum.


    Call Me by My True Names

    Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
    because even today I still arrive.

    Look deeply: I arrive in every second
    to be a bud on a spring branch,
    to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
    learning to sing in my new nest,
    to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
    to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

    I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
    in order to fear and to hope.
    The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
    death of all that are alive.

    I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
    and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
    to eat the mayfly.

    I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
    and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
    feeds itself on the frog.

    I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
    my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
    and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
    Uganda.

    I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
    who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
    pirate,
    and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
    loving.

    I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
    hands,
    and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
    people,
    dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

    My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
    walks of life.
    My pain if like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
    so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can wake up,
    and so the door of my heart can be left open,
    the door of compassion.

    Thich Nhat Hanh
    riverflow
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran

    Blondel, in the quote you provided, the Buddha is saying that the five aggregates are "neither our self nor what belong to our self". I don't see any suggestion that he is saying "we are apart from the aggregates"

    I was thinking "apart" because the title of the sutta is "Not Yours" and I also assume something doesn't belong to me. (Last month I got Bhikkhu Bodhi's ebook of The Connected Discourses...Sweet!). Then the Buddha says, "Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it." I assume that the aggregates are not me as well as the burning rubbish. Could it be that there is a spiritual separation between us and the aggregates we are supposed to abandon, a super awareness that is free of the aggregates?
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    Blondel said:

    Blondel, in the quote you provided, the Buddha is saying that the five aggregates are "neither our self nor what belong to our self". I don't see any suggestion that he is saying "we are apart from the aggregates"

    I was thinking "apart" because the title of the sutta is "Not Yours" and I also assume something doesn't belong to me. (Last month I got Bhikkhu Bodhi's ebook of The Connected Discourses...Sweet!). Then the Buddha says, "Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it." I assume that the aggregates are not me as well as the burning rubbish. Could it be that there is a spiritual separation between us and the aggregates we are supposed to abandon, a super awareness that is free of the aggregates?
    That would mean a perception/consciousness separate from the aggregates. But no, when defining the aggregates the Buddha made it clear it includes all perception/consciousness. (You can read it in SN22 now you've got the ebook).

  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Wow, minds are really creative! They come up with all sorts of ways of ignoring their fear of death. Buddha refused to help people wander down a path like this, because it leads to clinging and more mental fabrication. Sit and be free or chase thoughts and get pulled into the chasing! Said differently, the mind's self-grasping is transparent in the construction and defense of its views. Namaste!

    With warmth,
    Matt
    Sabreriverflowpegembara
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    Sabre said:

    Blondel said:

    Blondel, in the quote you provided, the Buddha is saying that the five aggregates are "neither our self nor what belong to our self". I don't see any suggestion that he is saying "we are apart from the aggregates"

    I was thinking "apart" because the title of the sutta is "Not Yours" and I also assume something doesn't belong to me. (Last month I got Bhikkhu Bodhi's ebook of The Connected Discourses...Sweet!). Then the Buddha says, "Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it." I assume that the aggregates are not me as well as the burning rubbish. Could it be that there is a spiritual separation between us and the aggregates we are supposed to abandon, a super awareness that is free of the aggregates?
    That would mean a perception/consciousness separate from the aggregates. But no, when defining the aggregates the Buddha made it clear it includes all perception/consciousness. (You can read it in SN22 now you've got the ebook).

    SN22 consists of 159 suttas! :eek: The "not yours" or in my case the "not I" abandons form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness." For example, the sutta says "Form is not yours abandon it" (p. 877 SN 22:33). Okay, let's say I have abandoned all the aggregates, so where am I? I am sure not an aggregate b/c I just abandoned them. Interesting question.
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    aMatt said:

    Wow, minds are really creative! They come up with all sorts of ways of ignoring their fear of death. Buddha refused to help people wander down a path like this, because it leads to clinging and more mental fabrication. Sit and be free or chase thoughts and get pulled into the chasing! Said differently, the mind's self-grasping is transparent in the construction and defense of its views. Namaste!

    With warmth,
    Matt

    It's more like the fear of rebirth into a womb that could be anywhere in the galaxy. A giant crap shoot, also. What's to insure us that after we die we won't be here again with no memory, a fetus growing in another womb.
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Okay, let's say I have abandoned all the aggregates, so where am I? I am sure not an aggregate b/c I just abandoned them. Interesting question.
    In my view, "you" aren't anywhere. There was never a "you" to begin with. The belief that there is actually a "you" is an illusion produced by the aggregates.

    I would say "you don't exist" but that statement is somewhat self-contradictory, as it still suggests there is a "you." There never was a you, just as there was never really a mirage. It's all an illusion.

    That's my opinion, anyway.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    Blondel said:

    Sabre said:

    Blondel said:

    Blondel, in the quote you provided, the Buddha is saying that the five aggregates are "neither our self nor what belong to our self". I don't see any suggestion that he is saying "we are apart from the aggregates"

    I was thinking "apart" because the title of the sutta is "Not Yours" and I also assume something doesn't belong to me. (Last month I got Bhikkhu Bodhi's ebook of The Connected Discourses...Sweet!). Then the Buddha says, "Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it." I assume that the aggregates are not me as well as the burning rubbish. Could it be that there is a spiritual separation between us and the aggregates we are supposed to abandon, a super awareness that is free of the aggregates?
    That would mean a perception/consciousness separate from the aggregates. But no, when defining the aggregates the Buddha made it clear it includes all perception/consciousness. (You can read it in SN22 now you've got the ebook).

    SN22 consists of 159 suttas! :eek: The "not yours" or in my case the "not I" abandons form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness." For example, the sutta says "Form is not yours abandon it" (p. 877 SN 22:33). Okay, let's say I have abandoned all the aggregates, so where am I? I am sure not an aggregate b/c I just abandoned them. Interesting question.
    It's somewhere in there multiple times, I don't know exactly where. :P

    Your question poses an I that abandons the aggregates, but it is not like that. The aggregates abandon themselves is more correct.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    Blondel said:



    It's more like the fear of rebirth into a womb that could be anywhere in the galaxy. A giant crap shoot, also. What's to insure us that after we die we won't be here again with no memory, a fetus growing in another womb.

    Yes, the death of memory can be scary. We treasure our past as though it contains jewels... but the jewels are here and now, not somewhere else... so why fear of being here and not there?
  • Blondel said:

    The "not yours" or in my case the "not I" abandons form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness." For example, the sutta says "Form is not yours abandon it" (p. 877 SN 22:33). Okay, let's say I have abandoned all the aggregates, so where am I? I am sure not an aggregate b/c I just abandoned them. Interesting question.

    The Pali commentaries to the Majjima Nikaya say that "abandon it" in this Sutta merely means that our attachment to the aggregrates be abandoned. Basically, that means the view that the aggregrates is the self or belongs to oneself should be abandoned. This in no way implies that there be a separate consciousness outside of the aggregrates that does the abandoning, since the aggregrates themselves are not literally being abandoned, but only the view that the aggregates is the self or belongs to oneself should be abandoned.
    riverflow
  • Clinging to the aggregates leads to

    eternalism - The body dies but consciousness somehow survives and continue to exist.

    nihilism - Body dies and the consciousness dies with it. Nothing survives.

    Both are extreme views, not the Middle Way, since things(sankhara) are really no-thing(empty of inherent existence).

    The supreme view-point external [to the Dhamma] is this: 'I should not be; it should not occur to me; I will not be; it will not occur to me.' Of one with this view it may be expected that '[the perception of] unloathsomeness of becoming will not occur to him, and [the perception of] loathsomeness of the cessation of becoming will not occur to him.' And there are beings who have this view. Yet even in the beings who have this view there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

    Kosala Sutta


    "He discerns, as it actually is, that 'form will stop being' ... 'feeling will stop being' ... 'perception will stop being' ... 'fabrications will stop being' ... 'consciousness will stop being.'

    "From the stopping of form, from the stopping of feeling ... of perception ... of fabrications ... of consciousness, a monk set on this — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me' — would break the [five] lower fetters."

    "Lord, a monk set on this would break the [five] lower fetters. But for one knowing in what way, seeing in what way, is there the immediate ending of fermentations?"

    "There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person ... falls into fear over what is not grounds for fear. There is fear for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person [who thinks], 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me.' But an instructed disciple of the noble ones does not fall into fear over what is not grounds for fear. There is no fear for an instructed disciple of the noble ones [who thinks], 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me.'

    Udana Sutta SN 22.55
    ANNIHILATIONISM. The annihilationist the Buddha declares it to be “the foremost of outside speculative views”, the reason being that one who accepts such a view would neither be attracted to existence nor be averse to the ending of cessation.
    http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 5-piya.pdf
    riverflow
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran

    Blondel said:

    The "not yours" or in my case the "not I" abandons form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness." For example, the sutta says "Form is not yours abandon it" (p. 877 SN 22:33). Okay, let's say I have abandoned all the aggregates, so where am I? I am sure not an aggregate b/c I just abandoned them. Interesting question.

    The Pali commentaries to the Majjima Nikaya say that "abandon it" in this Sutta merely means that our attachment to the aggregrates be abandoned. Basically, that means the view that the aggregrates is the self or belongs to oneself should be abandoned. This in no way implies that there be a separate consciousness outside of the aggregrates that does the abandoning, since the aggregrates themselves are not literally being abandoned, but only the view that the aggregates is the self or belongs to oneself should be abandoned.
    If I abandon desire for the five aggregates subject to clinging, or say of each aggregate, This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self it is hard to argue that there is no spiritual separation or distinction between me and the aggregates.

  • The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.
    riverflowBodhivaka
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    The mind is also not to be clung to. It is not outside of a being rather it is just waves in the water with all the seeds of karma continually 'ker plunk' and making more waves. The waves are not to be clung to and moreover the waves are not separate from the peace of the water.
    riverflow
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran

    The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.

    Well, it is hard not to see that there is an 'entity' that is outside the domain of the aggregates. We can call it me, myself, self, mind, spirit, tathagata, or whatever. It is not aggregated or conditioned. The more plausible interpretation of Buddhism is that of 'false identification' with something we are not, but imagine we are, then learning how to dis-identify with it, which is the hard part. It seems to me that we are dis-identifying with the wrong thing. When Siddhartha was sitting under the Bodhi-tree fighting with the demon Mara, he was fighting with the five aggregates, not the self. I think it is pretty obvious that Siddhartha had dis-indentified with Mara so that he was able to defeat him. Recently, I've read all 159 suttas found in The Connected Discourses translated by B. Bodhi from page 853 to page 983. I didn't get the impression the Buddha was teaching his followers to hold on to the five aggregates and abandon the self. Maybe we have it all wrong. :eek:
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Blondel said:

    The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.

    Well, it is hard not to see that there is an 'entity' that is outside the domain of the aggregates. We can call it me, myself, self, mind, spirit, tathagata, or whatever. It is not aggregated or conditioned.
    @Blondel, I respect your view, but I must disagree. When I fall into a dreamless sleep, it's as if what I call "me" ceases to exist entirely -- there is no consciousness, no concept of time or space, no awareness whatsoever; therefore, take away the physical brain and "I" disappear. If there is truly some form of 'entity' separate from the aggregates that I can truly call me, why can't I sense it when the physical brain is deactivated?
    Blondel said:

    The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.

    The more plausible interpretation of Buddhism is that of 'false identification' with something we are not, but imagine we are, then learning how to dis-identify with it, which is the hard part.
    We're in agreement here. In my view, Anatta, simply put, teaches that we must dis-identify with the aggregates. Where we differ in opinion is that you seem to believe that once someone has managed to dis-identify with the aggregates they will somehow realize their true self, while I believe will that once someone has managed to dis-identify with the aggregates they will realize there was never a "self" to begin with -- that the concept of "I, me, mine, myself" is an illusion born out of the aggregates.
    Blondel said:

    The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.

    It seems to me that we are dis-identifying with the wrong thing. When Siddhartha was sitting under the Bodhi-tree fighting with the demon Mara, he was fighting with the five aggregates, not the self. I think it is pretty obvious that Siddhartha had dis-indentified with Mara so that he was able to defeat him.
    Traditionally, Mara represents temptation (hence Mara tempting the Buddha with women), unskillfullness, and death, not the five aggregates. Your statement that the Buddha wasn't fighting the "self" is a given in my view because there is no self to fight, only the illusion of self.
    Blondel said:

    The realization that the aggregrates are not the self and does not belong to oneself happens in the mind. This realization is what causes us to abandon our attachment to the aggregates. There is no need for there to be a separate mind or spirit or entity for this kind of realization to happen. It is just a realization that happens within the mind and the mind is capable of seeing its own true nature.

    Recently, I've read all 159 suttas found in The Connected Discourses translated by B. Bodhi from page 853 to page 983. I didn't get the impression the Buddha was teaching his followers to hold on to the five aggregates and abandon the self. Maybe we have it all wrong.
    No Buddhist I know of believes that the Buddha taught to cling to the aggregates and abandon self. In my view, the Buddha taught to dis-identify with the aggregates and thereby realize the illusion of self. In other words, there is no self to abandon, only the false belief that a self ever existed at all. Once you dis-identify with the aggregates you realize there is nothing you can truly call "me."
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2013
    'Aggegrates' is just a concept. There is a mind here even if we don't analyze.
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    Bodhivaka said:



    Traditionally, Mara represents temptation (hence Mara tempting the Buddha with women), unskillfullness, and death, not the five aggregates. Your statement that the Buddha wasn't fighting the "self" is a given in my view because there is no self to fight, only the illusion of self.

    There are five Maras. One of them is Khandha Mara. When the venerable Radha asked the Buddha what is Mara? the Buddha said the five aggregates are Mara (SN 23:11). Also, the Buddha never said the self is an illusion.

    Jeffrey
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Blondel said:

    Bodhivaka said:



    Traditionally, Mara represents temptation (hence Mara tempting the Buddha with women), unskillfullness, and death, not the five aggregates. Your statement that the Buddha wasn't fighting the "self" is a given in my view because there is no self to fight, only the illusion of self.

    There are five Maras. One of them is Khandha Mara. When the venerable Radha asked the Buddha what is Mara? the Buddha said the five aggregates are Mara (SN 23:11). Also, the Buddha never said the self is an illusion.

    I don't have access to SN 23:11, if you could quote the passage you're referring to it would be greatly appreciated.

    As to the Buddha having never said the self is an illusion, I disagree. Although the Buddha may have never said the exact words "self is an illusion," he did say we are not the five aggregates, and for me, a naturalist/physicalist, to say that the five aggregates are not self is equal to saying there is no self at all.

    If you believe there is some kind of entity that exists separate and distinct from the aggregates which constitutes the "real you," I can respect that belief, but I'm unaware of the Buddha having ever taught something to that effect.

    Moreover, if such an entity actually did exist, exactly what function would it perform? If you are indeed correct to say that the Buddha was simply attempting to bring us to a realization of our "true self" through the dis-identification of the aggregates, then the following must be true of the "self":

    1. It must be immaterial, for the Buddha taught form is not self.
    2. It must be emotionless, for the Buddha taught feelings are not self.
    3. It must be insentient, for the Buddha taught perception is not self.
    4. It must be mindless, for the Buddha taught mental formations are not self.
    5. It must be unconscious, for the Buddha taught consciousness is not self.

    So what exactly would the nature of this entity be? That which is immaterial, emotionless, insentient, mindless, and unconsciois can hardly be called a "self" in my opinion. If your assertions are true, the only conclusion I'm able to reach is that our true "self" must be an impersonal force like gravity; however, I'm not the type to claim that something like gravity is a "self," rather, it's simply a natural force lacking any kind of sentience whatsoever.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Bodhivaka said:

    When I fall into a dreamless sleep, it's as if what I call "me" ceases to exist entirely -- there is no consciousness, no concept of time or space, no awareness whatsoever; therefore, take away the physical brain and "I" disappear. If there is truly some form of 'entity' separate from the aggregates that I can truly call me, why can't I sense it when the physical brain is deactivated?

    I only want to address this one point of yours.

    In order to really see what the mind is we need to develop refined introspection. Because the average person can't discern subtle mental states described in Buddhism doesn't say anything about their existence or nature. I like the analogy Alan Wallace gives, he says for the average person looking into the mind is like Galileo trying to look at the stars through his telescope if it were mounted on the back of a moving camel in a sandstorm.

    The people who claim to know such things have generally spent tens of thousands of hours developing their introspection and concentration to where it can be used as an effective instrument to observe the subtle workings of the mind.
    Sabre
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    Bodhivaka said:

    Blondel said:



    I don't have access to SN 23:11, if you could quote the passage you're referring to it would be greatly appreciated.

    At Savatthi. Sitting to one side, the Venerable Radha said to the blessed One: "Venerable sir, it is said, 'Mara, Mara.' What now, venerable sir, is Mara?"

    "Form, Radha is Mara. Feeling ... Perception ... Volitional formations ... Consciousness is Mara. Seeing thus ... He understands' ... there is no more for this state of being'."
    This is on page 986 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. I would recommend that you purchase this book if you wish to learn more about Buddhism. Access to Insight has a lot of the Buddhist suttas missing.

    The Buddha also called the aggregates murderous at SN 22:85. All in all he is trying to get us to stop clinging to the aggregates which are the problem. We have always fundamentally transcended the aggregates, except that in a state of ignorance we cling to them as our refuge and make them, unconsciously, the measure of all things. It is only by letting go of these murderous aggregates that are painful, will we discover who we really are. In Mahayana Buddhism this is the Buddha Nature.

  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    person said:

    Bodhivaka said:

    When I fall into a dreamless sleep, it's as if what I call "me" ceases to exist entirely -- there is no consciousness, no concept of time or space, no awareness whatsoever; therefore, take away the physical brain and "I" disappear. If there is truly some form of 'entity' separate from the aggregates that I can truly call me, why can't I sense it when the physical brain is deactivated?

    I only want to address this one point of yours.

    In order to really see what the mind is we need to develop refined introspection. Because the average person can't discern subtle mental states described in Buddhism doesn't say anything about their existence or nature. I like the analogy Alan Wallace gives, he says for the average person looking into the mind is like Galileo trying to look at the stars through his telescope if it were mounted on the back of a moving camel in a sandstorm.

    The people who claim to know such things have generally spent tens of thousands of hours developing their introspection and concentration to where it can be used as an effective instrument to observe the subtle workings of the mind.
    I agree with the bulk of what you've said; however, if you are claiming that the mind is the true "self," we have a difference of opinion.

    "Understanding the mind requires deep introspection," I agree; however, I also believe the sciences have a lot to contribute to our understanding of the mind through empirical research, as well.

    Nevertheless, I think Buddhism is quite clear that the mind is not self; in my opinion, the mind is simply a combination of form (the physical brain), mental formations (the thoughts that arise as a result of the inner workings of the physical brain), and consciousness (a sense of awareness that, although not fully understood, is most likely a higher function of the physical brain. I prefer John Searle's "Biological Naturalism" as a likely explanation).

    What it really comes down to I suppose is monism vs dualism. If you believe that the mind is simply a function of the physical brain, it becomes obvious that the mind cannot be "self," however, if you accept dualism, it's possible to postulate that perhaps the mind is the real you. Obviously, I'm a monist.
  • BodhivakaBodhivaka Veteran
    edited July 2013
    @Blondel, thank you for providing me the quote, after reading it I can accept that Mara can be rightly taken as a representation of the five aggregates. As for the doctrine of Buddha Nature, I don't agree with it. My views fall somewhere in between Therevada and Secular Buddhism.
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