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Homosexuality and bullying

I probably shouldn't even bother, but yes, I just had to say my own piece on this silly Phil Robertson "controversy." (incidentally, back in 1990, I was baptized in the church he attends, White's Ferry Road Church of Christ LOL) Actually, I would say that this ties in with Right Speech. So I posted this on Facebook (foolish me):

When a group of people endorses the demonizing of a group for who they are by appealing to a (presumed) Absolute, an environment of self-loathing is promoted by a society. All the more so when it is broadcast by a public figure. To be clear: I am speaking not merely of the criticism of ideas or beliefs but the demonizing of people for who they are. It is no wonder why LGBT youth suicide rates are so high.

Labeling this as "political correctness," or "people merely having their feelings hurt," claiming that "the Bible says so"or that "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" are all evasions the heart of the matter: the reinforcement of an environment of sexual shame causing deep and often irreparable harm. School bullying plays a huge role in this. After enduring this day after day, who wouldn't feel suicidal and full of self-loathing?

I know this experience all too well myself-- I'm not gay, but I do know what it's like to be an outsider in other respects and the negative effects that can have on a young person. I flunked the eighth grade from missing too much school because I couldn't face the humiliation and physical threats (and, like most bullied children, I was too afraid to tell my own parents of my situation). I was hounded every single day. Even the nerds picked on me.

How much worse it must be for a teen who is gay, trying to make sense of their own sexuality among many other things, where even the adults (usually unintentionally) reinforce a culture of bullying, giving children license to bully? How much more difficult to be a teenager who is lumped in with murderers and "God-haters," defined as a person worthy of eternal punishment by virtue of who you are?

Imagine living like that every day. How would that affect your mindset as a teenager? And how would that carry over into your adult life? There are real life consequences to spreading and sustaining these kinds of deeply harmful memes-- no different than racism, anti-semitism, sexism, or anti-Christian bigotry.

No one should be bullied for who they are. Of course, bullying can never be eliminated entirely. But we adults should not continue reinforce negative stereotypes for our children. Yes, we have freedom of speech (a collective political issue), but that doesn't mean we are not also responsible for our speech (an individual moral issue). We all bear some measure of responsibility for the discourse in which we participate, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. That's why such ideas SHOULD be criticized. I would never want my child to grow up in that kind of world. Why would ANY adult want that for their child? We can do better than that, can't we?

"You must work—we all must work—to make this world worthy of its children." ~ Pablo Casals, Joys and Sorrows
JeffreybetaboylobsterJasonHamsakapoptartInvincible_summerCinorjerMaryAnneanatamanDavidVastmindoceancaldera207

Comments

  • agreed
  • Dear Brothers and Sisters
    (as Chris Hitchens used to say before he was taken by the Gay Flying Spaghetti Monster),

    Be Kind (otherwise Baby Jesus will cry)
    love you neighbour (even if bullying busy bodhis)
    go that extra mile (as the New Agers for a rainbowed world tell us)
    and stop bullying yourself (as the homophobes gone straight try so desperately to do)

    Some people are GAY, some people are [insert other of preferred rejection]
    Get over it.

    There is no 'they'. We are they.

    . . . and now back to the bullying closet . . .
    :orange:
    HamsakariverflowDennis1Vastmind
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    @Riverflow, you nailed it beautifully. Thank you for taking the time to say what you said.

    Gassho :)
    riverflow
  • @betaboy - just putting this here in this thread LOL it seems more relevant here (my fault as you responded to a comment I probably should have also place here too LOL). I do agree with your comment and wanted to unpack some of it...
    betaboy said:

    Go to any forum and you will see many good christians supporting him. These arent the typical bible thumping baptists but nice, well meaning christians. So the problem isnt just confined to bullying .... There is a greater problem of good people refusing to recognize bullying and making excuses for bullies.

    I used to go to his church back in the early 90s-- I used to live in Monroe, Louisiana. And I bet Phil Robertson is a charming fellow in his own way. He really doesn't hate gay people-- he just doesn't realize what he is actually saying. And that actually makes him more harmful than Phelps (whom even FOX and the KKK even revile).

    This is what a lot of people don't understand about vaccinations: Someone can carry a virus and not show symptoms of carrying it, and may remain unaffected by it (Phil Robertson). But it can nevertheless be transmitted to others who will be affected by it. We can plainly see someone has it who shows the symptoms-- and we know to avoid that person (Fred Phelps). The problem is there are people who are opposed to the vaccination and therefore participate in spreading it.

    So yes, it's the endorsement and propagation of a meme that is harmful-- and the lack of awareness of the broader consequences of it. One does not have to hate a group of people, one only has to remain oblivious (in bad faith) to the harm one causes in their bigotry.

    Fred Phelps is an obvious case-- I live in Arkansas and I know no one here in that supports him. But almost everyone I know at the hospital where I work support Robertson (I can literally count the others on one hand) -- not his right to free speech, but his views. They are good people, and I get along with them all quite well. I would do anything I could to help them (and have). But they really don't understand the meme they are propagating, endorsing, supporting, and reinforcing.

    "Inability to think is not stupidity; it can be found in highly intelligent people, and wickedness is hardly its cause, if only because thoughtlessness as well as stupidity are much more frequent phenomena than wickedness. The trouble is precisely that no wicked heart, a relatively rare phenomenon, is necessary to cause great evil." ~ Hannah Arendt, "Thinking and Moral Considerations," from Responsibility and Judgment

    betaboyCinorjerHamsakaDavid
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Steve_B said:

    I'm not gay, and I couldn't image being interested in gay sex. Yuck. I suspect that's true for the vast majority of straight people. This is definitely NOT a decision on my part. I did not choose to be only attracted to the opposite sex, any more than I chose my eye color. I was born this way. So it's quite clear to me that gay people are also NOT making a decision. They are attracted to the same sex, physiologically and not as a result of any thought process, decision, quest to defy God or their schoolmates, etc. They are just not at all attracted to the opposite sex. Yuck.

    I'm also not shy, and was never bullied for being shy. But shy people do get bullied. In fact, anyone "different" is potentially subject to being bullied. It's an unfortunate human tendency. As an advanced society, we must prevent such barbaric mob action. Not diminish it, prevent it. It's cruel, and has absolutely zero upside.

    No matter how well meaning, please do not speak for all gay people in whether we were born that way or learned it.

  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited December 2013
    I too get these sense that things are changing. The taboo is eroding with these younger generation and so is the prejudice.
    Hopefully in 10,.20 yrs it won't even be a discussion




    riverflowlobster
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited December 2013
    So yes, it's the endorsement and propagation of a meme that is harmful-- and the lack of awareness of the broader consequences of it. One does not have to hate a group of people, one only has to remain oblivious (in bad faith) to the harm one causes in their bigotry
    @Riverflow; I am in love with your . . . your . . . whatever it is. Your beautiful self. Yeah, that's it.

    That quote from Hannah Arendt is also beautiful in it's 'truth'. I need to check this lady philosopher out more than I have (MORE reading material???? Already I'll have to put the current list in my will).

    I guess impressing upon these kindly but ignorant folks the point in Martin Luther King's quote:
    "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
    will get bogged down in some definition of 'evil' or another. Moral development does not appear to be a goal of modern Christianity. What is 'evil' is listed in the cookbook, and that's that. The person is collapsed into their 'evil' and the Christian's responsibility and concern ends. The 'evil' separates that person from persons worthy of concern and responsibility.

    ***This is only true in many American Christians, or fundamentalists. Jesus taught the exact opposite of this***

    Defending the 'personhood' of homosexuals equals defending the evil, I guess. And what would fellow Christians say? They might say you are NOT a good Christian, or a Christian at all. That is a terrifying place to be, it's a threat to your immortal soul.

    If the choice comes down to refusing to propagate a dangerous meme OR having the state of your immortal soul threatened, what choice is there?

    My sister's story is a 'happy ending' in this case. She gave birth to five daughters, and has been a Southern Baptist Christian for the last twenty or so years. A year and a half ago, her next youngest announced he was NOT a girl. Six months later, her oldest announced she was a lesbian. My sister cherishes her children more than a Christian assertion about the state of her immortal soul. She left the church and is going to nursing school to become a pediatric nurse practitioner, hoping to specialize in gender and sexuality issues. She didn't share what must have been a long period of spiritual agony with her heathen sister (dangit). I sure do want to worship her sometimes, though :)

    Gassho :)
    riverflowrobot
  • Hamsaka said:

    If the choice comes down to refusing to propagate a dangerous meme OR having the state of your immortal soul threatened, what choice is there?

    My sister-- in a less dramatic fashion-- has changed too. But what they have in common (and a handful of others that I have known personally) is new experiences. Of course ideology has a way of making one impervious to experience, but my sister went from tiny town Monroe, Louisiana to Dallas. Like me she briefly became a member of the Church of Christ (the same one Phil Robertson attends) -- just as I was getting out of it! LOL

    But she moved to Dallas and was in the fashion industry, did a lot of traveling and met all kinds of people from different religious, racial and sexual backgrounds. Two of her very best friends was a gay couple. The abstract ideology dissolved in the face of concrete experience.

    (But we were also both raised in a left of center Catholic family that rarely attended mass-- I know that was an influence too)

    Rural areas tend to be far more homogenous and conformity is expected. It may not be explicitly stated, but oh, it is certainly expected. I have countless stories that all of my family endured when we moved from Baton Rouge to Monroe.

    As for myself, even in the Church of Christ I never could accept what Phil Robertson accepts. Again, it was because of experience. I was majoring in music composition at that time of my life and was deeply in love with classical music. I soon discovered that Leonard Bernstein, Samuel Barber, Benjamin Britten, Ned Rorem, and many other heroes of mine were gay or bisexual:



    Samuel Barber and Leonard Bernstein, "makers of evil"?

    At age 20, that was enough to convince me that I could not accept such a belief. I tried to accept it, but couldn't (I felt guilty because of that too, though I certainly told no one about my doubts).

    Exposure to concrete experience can be stronger than adherence to an abstract ideology if the conditions are ripe. That's why desegregation was so strongly opposed. Bigotry stands and falls on abstraction-- anything beyond that could send the whole thing crumbling down.

    I thought of that MLK quote too @Hamsaka -- Hannah Arendt is a hero of mine. Just this year a film was made by her, but I'd recommend reading Eichmann in Jerusalem first to get a better context for the film. Her book Responsibility and Judgement is a good collection of essays also. There are important lessons to be learned in her writings for sure!


    MaryAnnelobster
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited December 2013
    @riverflow
    Exposure to concrete experience can be stronger than adherence to an abstract ideology if the conditions are ripe. That's why desegregation was so strongly opposed. Bigotry stands and falls on abstraction-- anything beyond that could send the whole thing crumbling down.
    Well said, and this fleshes out conditions under which persons (like our sisters) will prioritize the danger of certain memes over the abstraction of what may happen to their immortal soul :D

    Years ago, my sister sold an old console radio on Craigslist. Two gentlemen arrived from Portland (a two and a half hour drive). Apparently they 'sounded gay' on the phone to my sister, and she was in a complete dither the hour before they arrived. I was living with her at the time, so I got to see homophobia in action -- she was nervous and fearful of having to deal with two guys she was pretty sure were gay, like they were going to knock on the door and attack. I admit I was not feeling the love, and thoroughly enjoyed watching her manner and facial expressions change during the transaction (they were indeed a gay couple). They had her laughing and joking back about a couple of other antique pieces she refused to sell to them. It kind of made me queasy, afterward, as I listened to her explain to ME that they were just regular people after all, but I'm sure listening to her sympathetically built some character I lacked, somewhere.

    Gassho :)

    riverflow
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from rebuke.

    riverflowVastmind
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ourself said:

    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from rebuke.

    Exactly!
  • Been reading Plato, homosexuality was such the norm in ancient greek culture that it is a bit startling at first. But i got used to it after a short while..and now all modern discussion and uproar about homosexuality seems pretty humorous to me now.
    Of course, what isn't humorous is people using a public forum to reinforce the cultural acceptability of prejudice. This type of thing only acts as a propellant for the flames of discrimination and even violent hate crime  


    riverflow

  • No matter how well meaning, please do not speak for all gay people



    I doubt anyone here is trying to speak for all gay people.
    Might want to turn the burner down a little bit, I think I'm starting to smell just a little bit of smoke.
    HamsakaEvenThird
  • Been reading Plato, homosexuality was such the norm in ancient greek culture that it is a bit startling at first. But i got used to it after a short while..and now all modern discussion and uproar about homosexuality seems pretty humorous to me now.
    Of course, what isn't humorous is people using a public forum to reinforce the cultural acceptability of prejudice. This type of thing only acts as a propellant for the flames of discrimination and even violent hate crime  


    I agree completely. This is what I have been trying to say. You said it simply and succinctly. I would like to state as I did before. We as Buddhists, should endeavor to disparage all forms of prejudice and persecution.
  • Shouldn't we as Buddhists realize that we are all perfect in our self nature and be willing for others to be themselves. Yes, Sexually, religiously, aspirationally.... Of course this in no way condones behavior which is destructive of others. Persecution is just one form of destructive behavior. In a way I see concentration on Homosexuality and the rights of homosexuals as a type of persecution. I mean if we are truly color-blind then we just don't notice the other person's color. We don't go around apologizing to them or
    putting special attention on their color. Isn't that just another type of prejudice? And, isn't that a type of persecution in itself?

    It's like saying I'm sorry you are a zebra and you have this terrible handicap but I don't hold it against you because I'm enlightened.
    Furthermore because I understand that zebras are deficient I will make special allowance for your zebraness and make sure that there is plenty of paint around so you can hide your stripes if you might kinda like, not want to appear so you know-stripy.

    Where is the Buddha in that Mandala. We all have perfect Buddha nature-except the zebras-of course. Buddha Fields to you all.
    jae
  • P.S. In case there is some failure to get my view. I have grown up with gays, blacks, Mexicans, Christians and zebras. I am pretty sure I'm comfortable with people just letting it all hang out and that is what I am promoting. Bigots are bigots and zebras are zebras and me, well I am a Black Cherokee, Buddhist and sometimes my Christian friends don't appreciate that and that is just fine too. I haven't scalped anyone for their bigotry-yet.
    jae
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    :eek2:
    lobsterjae
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    No matter how well meaning, please do not speak for all gay people in whether we were born that way or learned it.

    So in your view is it sometimes learned behaviour?
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    edited December 2013
    vinlyn said:

    :eek2:

    I understood perfectly what he said. He doesn't discriminate against zebras because he used to hang out with one when he was little. That and he makes special allowance for zebras by throwing around paint. Finally, zebras don't have a Buddha nature; they have a zebra nature.
  • vinlyn said:

    On the one hand, I think the dumb cluck on A&E has the right to speak his peace.

    But there seems to be an opinion growing in the US that free speech means there are no consequences. Yet, those consequences are also free speech.

    Yes, just because you can (say or do something) doesn't mean you should. I may not like what someone has to say, and I may rage and fume at it, and wish people thought my way, but it's true we have the First Amendment. However, there are indeed limitations and consequences... yelling "Fire!" in a crowded threater, "inciting a reasonable person to violence". My rights end where they infringe on yours... my right to throw a punch stops short of hitting your nose.
  • Steve_B said:

    I'm not gay, and I couldn't image being interested in gay sex. Yuck. I suspect that's true for the vast majority of straight people. This is definitely NOT a decision on my part. I did not choose to be only attracted to the opposite sex, any more than I chose my eye color. I was born this way. So it's quite clear to me that gay people are also NOT making a decision. They are attracted to the same sex, physiologically and not as a result of any thought process, decision, quest to defy God or their schoolmates, etc. They are just not at all attracted to the opposite sex. Yuck.

    I'm also not shy, and was never bullied for being shy. But shy people do get bullied. In fact, anyone "different" is potentially subject to being bullied. It's an unfortunate human tendency. As an advanced society, we must prevent such barbaric mob action. Not diminish it, prevent it. It's cruel, and has absolutely zero upside.

    You had me in your corner except for the 'yuck' part. :-/ I might say the same for sex with a woman. Oh wait... I do say that. :lol:
    Hamsaka
  • I was trying, perhaps clumsily, to make the point that we all have a Yuck. I know what mine is. And I know that other people might like what for me is a Yuck. And I'm also saying that I don't think we choose our yucks, I think we have them issued to us. Vinlyn seems to be implying that he might disagree, though I couldn't really tell.

    In this context, I think bisexuals are intriguing. They don't seem to have a yuck either way, so I might retract the "we all have a Yuck" because I can't really know. I can only suspect.
    riverflowEvenThird
  • The whole thing has a yuck factor if you look too closely. Doesn't matter which side you're on.
    Best include a substantial portion of fantasy and delusion to keep it interesting.
    MaryAnneoceancaldera207
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.
    oceancaldera207Hamsaka
  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    caz said:

    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.

    Holy over -generalizations, Batman!

    Isn't that comment pretty ignorant and hateful in and of itself?

    vinlyn
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    DaftChris said:

    caz said:

    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.

    Holy over -generalizations, Batman!

    Isn't that comment pretty ignorant and hateful in and of itself?

    No its very accurate :)

    Are you Ignorant of History ?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:


    No matter how well meaning, please do not speak for all gay people in whether we were born that way or learned it.

    So in your view is it sometimes learned behaviour?
    Yes.

  • vinlyn said:


    No matter how well meaning, please do not speak for all gay people in whether we were born that way or learned it.

    So in your view is it sometimes learned behaviour?
    I believe that it absolutely does not matter whether it is learned or inherent.
    I believe that one should have autonomy over ones body and sexual preferences. I am heterosexual but this just seems like common sense to me.




    riverflowvinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    If only it were common.
    riverflowbetaboy
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    One day, hopefully it will be.
    riverflow
  • Jason said:

    It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. Consenting adults should be able to love, sleep with, and/or marry whomever they want. The law shouldn't discriminate ("No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States," and marriage confers both certain privileges or immunities), and neither should religious prejudices be imposed upon the whole of a civil society. Seems like commonsense to me.

    I think the Fourteenth Amendment, which you quoted, will be the primary basis for overturning state bans on gay marriage, and all other discriminatory laws. It was the partial basis for the decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), overturning state "sodomy" laws. Gotta love the US Constitution, especially when it's used properly. ;)
    oceancaldera207
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited December 2013
    DaftChris said:

    caz said:

    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.

    Holy over -generalizations, Batman!

    Isn't that comment pretty ignorant and hateful in and of itself?

    Not at all. Perhaps if Caz had inserted the words 'some groups of' in front of Christianity and Islam, your 'holy over-generalization' statement would have been the over-generalization :)

    Notice how 'quiet' (at least in the loudest media) the REST of the unbigoted Christians and Islam, as a whole, have been, regarding their distinctive sorts of bigotry making the front page. I don't exactly hear the REST of those being over-generalized about taking public exception to the bigoted behavior of the 'some'.

    I'll leave off quoting MLK about the tragedy of those who stay silent. Therefore, in that light, I'm going to include all the non-bigots afraid of being called a bad Christian or Muslim (or whatever keeps them silent) and repeat Caz's statement above.

    ALL Christians and Muslims who identify themselves as such ought to feel accountable for their brethren, I do believe they are admonished to by their sacred texts. I know Christians are exhorted to correct their wayward brethren in public and in private.

    Slapping 'over-generalization' on a statement is a nice try to squish out its energy or distract the debate in a different (your) direction, but with all due respect to you, DaftChris, and you are a lovely person, logically it doesn't work here.

    Gassho :)
    caz
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran



    I think the Fourteenth Amendment, which you quoted, will be the primary basis for overturning state bans on gay marriage, and all other discriminatory laws. It was the partial basis for the decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), overturning state "sodomy" laws. Gotta love the US Constitution, especially when it's used properly. ;)

    I think so, as well. The Supreme Court often seems to want to take baby steps and not let its decisions get too far ahead of the populous.

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    vinlyn said:



    I think the Fourteenth Amendment, which you quoted, will be the primary basis for overturning state bans on gay marriage, and all other discriminatory laws. It was the partial basis for the decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), overturning state "sodomy" laws. Gotta love the US Constitution, especially when it's used properly. ;)

    I think so, as well. The Supreme Court often seems to want to take baby steps and not let its decisions get too far ahead of the populous.

    Especially an armed and toothy American populace.

    vinlynDavid
  • betaboy said:

    vinlyn said:

    :eek2:


    I understood perfectly what he said. He doesn't discriminate against zebras because he used to hang out with one when he was little. That and he makes special allowance for zebras by throwing around paint. Finally, zebras don't have a Buddha nature; they have a zebra nature.
    Actually you forgot the part where I say "putting special attention on their color. Isn't that just another type of prejudice? And, isn't that a type of persecution in itself?

    It's like saying I'm sorry you are a zebra and you have this terrible handicap but I don't
    ----------------
    hold it against you because I'm enlightened.
    Furthermore because I understand that zebras are deficient I will make special allowance for your zebraness and make sure that there is plenty of paint around so you can hide your stripes if you might kinda like, not want to appear so you know-stripy.

    I intended to understand the kind of viewpoint I am decrying. Apparently you also decry that view-so quit. People are people and persecution is persecution. We all have Buddha nature. So why are you following around mis-quoting me? Interesting fixation.


  • A quote from Islamic sources.

    distinctly talk about homosexuality and its punishments in detail:[citation needed]
    Male homosexuality[edit]
    Sodomy (lavat) can in certain circumstances be a crime for which both partners can in theory be punished by death.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Dennis1 said:

    A quote from Islamic sources.

    distinctly talk about homosexuality and its punishments in detail:[citation needed]
    Male homosexuality[edit]
    Sodomy (lavat) can in certain circumstances be a crime for which both partners can in theory be punished by death.

    OK, I'm stepping in as my role as moderator here. Islam has nothing to do with this topic. Please refrain from derailing it into yet another 'discussion' about Islam. Further posts of this nature will be removed without warning.
    vinlynoceancaldera207Jeffrey
  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    caz said:

    DaftChris said:

    caz said:

    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.

    Holy over -generalizations, Batman!

    Isn't that comment pretty ignorant and hateful in and of itself?

    No its very accurate :)

    Are you Ignorant of History ?

    Christianity and Islam were never always as they are depicted today.

    Christian fundamentalism as we see today is a very recent phenomena. In fact, less than 200 years old. In the 1800's, there were "great awakingings" which brought on the ideas of the Bible as being infallible and the inerrant literal word of God. Fundamentalism in America, one could argue, has only been around in it's current form since perhaps the early 70's. Early Christianity was more about ones relationship to God and how to apply it in ones life. It was seen as simply another facet in ones life and not everything was taken as literal as many do today. Current situations like Uganda and Russia are more political in nature. With Uganda having fundings and support from many American evangelical groups and the Russian Orthodox Church being used by Putin to gain a political scapegoat (Russia's LGBT population).

    With Islam, one could argue that it was the rise of Wahhabism/Salafism which has affected much of Islam at large. Islamic art and literature has its own history of homoeroticism. And homosexuality was generally more tolerated during it's Age of Enlightenment than it is today.

    The point is, both are very recent phenomena and the historical religions were not like how both are generally today. To say so is intellectually disingenuous and just shows your axe to grind with the Abrahamic religions.

    HamsakaDennis1
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    And as Jason has requested, this terminates commentary on Islam, as it's not the topic of discussion.

    Clear?
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    DaftChris said:

    caz said:

    DaftChris said:

    caz said:

    Christianity and Islam have done so much to terrorise LGBT in history it really is disgusting and I truly feel for those who have to grow up that way inclined living amongst these Ignorant and hateful people.

    Holy over -generalizations, Batman!

    Isn't that comment pretty ignorant and hateful in and of itself?

    No its very accurate :)

    Are you Ignorant of History ?

    Christianity and Islam were never always as they are depicted today.

    Christian fundamentalism as we see today is a very recent phenomena. In fact, less than 200 years old. In the 1800's, there were "great awakingings" which brought on the ideas of the Bible as being infallible and the inerrant literal word of God. Fundamentalism in America, one could argue, has only been around in it's current form since perhaps the early 70's. Early Christianity was more about ones relationship to God and how to apply it in ones life. It was seen as simply another facet in ones life and not everything was taken as literal as many do today. Current situations like Uganda and Russia are more political in nature. With Uganda having fundings and support from many American evangelical groups and the Russian Orthodox Church being used by Putin to gain a political scapegoat (Russia's LGBT population).

    With Islam, one could argue that it was the rise of Wahhabism/Salafism which has affected much of Islam at large. Islamic art and literature has its own history of homoeroticism. And homosexuality was generally more tolerated during it's Age of Enlightenment than it is today.

    The point is, both are very recent phenomena and the historical religions were not like how both are generally today. To say so is intellectually disingenuous and just shows your axe to grind with the Abrahamic religions.

    What you are doing is disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and its rather tedious moving the goal posts to make it about having an axe to grind with Abrahamic religions it was not what this post was about but rather my condolences to those who have suffered, If I were to begin grinding the axe I would make it sharp enough to sever the head of your non argument :)

    But the fact remains that people of non hetrosexual orientations have been particularly nastily persecuted throughout history both past and present, By Christian and Islamic theologies that deem Homosexuality a nasty perversion and Sin which has been punishable by torture, Mutilation, or even death.

    Many hundred of thousands had to live in fear for their lives in times gone past because of these ideologies regarding human sexuality and likewise the same today many hundred of thousands across the globe face persecution primarily because of these two main Religions.

    Again as I originally said I feel sad for those who have to live in these societies fearing this sort of persecution.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    Jason said:

    It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. Consenting adults should be able to love, sleep with, and/or marry whomever they want. The law shouldn't discriminate ("No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States," and marriage confers both certain privileges or immunities), and neither should religious prejudices be imposed upon the whole of a civil society. Seems like commonsense to me.

    I think the Fourteenth Amendment, which you quoted, will be the primary basis for overturning state bans on gay marriage, and all other discriminatory laws. It was the partial basis for the decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), overturning state "sodomy" laws. Gotta love the US Constitution, especially when it's used properly. ;)
    Yes. A federal judge, just a couple of days ago declared Utah gay marriage ban unconstitutional with the 14 amendment as the basis. :)
    riverflow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Given that the discussion seems to have descended to bickering, tit-for-tat levels, I'm closing this down for now, until some folk have had a chance to review their agendas. I leave it entirely to the discretion of my respected fellow-member and colleague, @Jason, to decide whether it's suitable to re-open it.
    As, when and if he chooses.
    riverflow
This discussion has been closed.