Where are all the stupid buddhists?

bfg84 · January 2014

Ok so the title for the thread is a little tounge in cheek....but...

as a member of a few different forums across a range of subjects im wondering how come every individual on here seems tobe so eloquent and able to get their message across so poignantly in comparrison with my other forums and to be honest day to day life?

just an observation x

anataman · January 2014

They're on the other forums.

bfg84 · January 2014

lol, maybe but as of now this is the only Buddhism forum im involved in and neither have i met any other 'real life' Buddhists x

federica · January 2014

I remember seeing a sign in a car, a sticker which read "Buddhism is for the intelligentsia".

maybe that's why.....?

anataman · January 2014

Don't you like the word forum @Bfg84

Sounds like 'For Om'!

Sorry I am in 'cosmic giggle' mode at the moment.

bfg84 · January 2014

federica said:
I remember seeing a sign in a car, a sticker which read "Buddhism is for the intelligentsia".

maybe that's why.....?

just had to google-intelligentsia.......

maybe im the stupid buddhist?!

upekka · January 2014

anataman said:

I am in 'cosmic giggle' mode at the moment.

jae · January 2014

just had to google-intelligentsia.......

maybe im the stupid buddhist?!

you are not alone @bfg84

Hamsaka · January 2014

Granted, Buddhism *IS* kind of an intellectual philosophy/tradition/religion. At least at first. You have the Four Ennobling (or, Noble) Truths, the Eight-Fold Path, the Three Conditions of Existence, the Five Hindrances, the Brahma Viharas, the concept of skandhas, and mind-exhaustingly elaborate teachings on all of the above plus much more than listed. It's enough to give you an ice-cream headache for the rest of your life.

Then it's obvious you need to cast aside your intellect altogether to experience deeper (or higher?) levels of Reality. It's like your brain tries to divide something by zero.

Perhaps it APPEALS, initially, to those with a more intellectual approach to life (IQ aside).

I've noticed in western Buddhism, there are 'traditions' emerging that appeal to eco-naturalists, green types, compassion and lovingkindness types, at least at the front door.

Once inside the temple, Buddhism, however you enter it, seems to me a graduate level kind of . . . course. I'm positive I'm missing something, because the Buddha himself insisted all humans have the capacity for Buddhahood. I assume this means people with limited intellectual capacity.

Gassho

DharmaMcBum · January 2014

I think it may also be beacause most people who find this forum through their interest in buddhism will have a fairly high degree of literacy. You need it to even begin with studying anything more than basic meditation in the modern world. That and the other reasons stated above.

anataman · January 2014

BhanteLucky · January 2014

I know some foolish buddhists. They're intelligent, but just have no idea of how it all fits together, or they've got some serious mistaken views from something they've read and interpreted wrongly.
But yeah, I don't know any low IQ buddhists.

Hamsaka · January 2014

On the other hand, the Brahma Viharas, as qualities, aren't gained by intelligence, they are present naturally in many people, including those with limited intellect (developmental delay). It's well known among folks who have Down's Syndrome family members that DS folks are naturally even tempered, good natured and joyful with very little self-centeredness. Their naturally even temperedness is a kind of equanimity.

As for cultivated abilities like concentration, one does not need to have a certain IQ to perform feats of concentration. Concentration is just part of having a human brain. No doubt there are humans so impaired we can't know if they are capable of concentration or not -- but then we have recent discoveries with nonverbal autistic folks who articulate perfectly well in text, and describe their internal lives as rich with feeling and experience the rest of us have to meditate for years to achieve (the latter is just my impression). It's pretty obvious that higher functioning folks with autism have concentration abilities that put the rest of us to shame, and they knew no formal training.

None of these folks would call themselves Buddhist or even be capable of grasping such an abstract concept of 'being a Buddhist'. Which begs the question if calling oneself a Buddhist is redundant or unnecessary, or even unskillful if a person feels a sense of superiority for it. Being "Buddhist" might only be a redundant distinction for being a human seeking their human potential?

Gassho

how · January 2014

@bfg84
I often see this forum as a contemplative practice.
A place where my conditioned thoughts get to be re appraised beside this present moment of observation.
I think others do the same.
So perhaps when coming here, what you see too is the eloquence spoken by your own practice, rather than the who or what of anyone's opinions.

Naauhh....... just messin wid ya.

Nevermind · January 2014

Try Treeleaf.

person · January 2014

Here's a bit of a long story about a stupid arhat that lived during Buddha's time

There was a Brahmin family who lived in Sravasti in India. The family had tried to have children but they all died early in their childhood. Then an old lady who lived nearby told the Brahmin that the next time a child was delivered, he should bring the child to her.

Soon a child was born into the Brahmin family, and immediately the child was brought to the old lady. After washing the infant, she wrapped the child with a clean white cloth and put some butter in his mouth. This lady called another girl to take the child to a big crossroad. The girl was given the instructions to pay homage to any great master that came along and to say aloud to them, "This infant pays homage to the feet of the noble ones!" She was told to do this for the whole day. "Should the child live to the end of the day, you should bring him back, but if the child dies, then you should bury him."

So this girl did as she was told. First several tirthikas appeared, and she addressed them as directed. The tirthikas responded with these prayers: "Long may he live. May he lead a long life. May he fulfill the wishes of his parents." Later, several Buddhist monks appeared and they, too, offered similar prayers. Then the girl took the infant to the road leading to Jetavana, where she happened to meet the Blessed One who was on His way to receive His daily food offering. The girl addressed Him as she had the others. The Blessed One then uttered the prayer, "May he fulfill the spiritual wishes of his parent." With so much blessings received, the child survived and the girl was able to bring the child home alive.

Since this child was taken to a main crossroad, he was thus given the name Mahapantaka, which means the "great road". When the child grew up, he became very well-versed in Vedas and the ancillary Brahmanical sciences. Later, he taught the sacred words to some hundreds other Brahman youths.

Then another child was born into the same Brahmin family. When he was born, the father also sought the advice of the lady who lived nearby and the same instruction was given. However, this time the infant was entrusted to a lazy girl. She did not take the child to a main crossroad, instead she took him to only as far as a minor road and waited there. No ascetics or Brahman had passed by that road. However, the Buddha who watches over all beings during the six periods of the day and night purposely went there. Asked by the girl to deliver a prayer, he did so as before. At the end of the day, the girl took the infant home. He was given the name Chudapanthaka or "lam chung" in Tibetan, meaning the "small path".

When Chudapanthaka grew up, he turned out to be very slow. When he tried to learn a word such as "siddham", he would pronounce the first syllable "si" only to forget the second syllable "ddham", and vice versa. Later he was passed over to another master to study with a reader of the Vedas who taught him to say Om Bhu. Again he remembered the first word "Om" and forgot the second word "Bhu", and vice versa The frustrated teacher said to Panthaka's father, "Your other son, Mahapanthaka, was able to learn after only a small amount of instructions but this child I cannot instruct any longer!" And so, this boy who was utterly slow and dull was known as the Small Road.

Sometime later, the two boys' parents died. Mahapanthaka entered the Muni's teaching and, after mastering the three baskets, became an Arhat.

Soon afterwards he was visited by his younger brother, Chudapanthaka who had exhausted all the family's wealth. Mahapandthaka checked to see if his younger brother had any capacity for the Dharma and discovered not only that he did but also that he, Chudapanthaka, bore the responsibility for its development. So he arranged for his younger brother to leave the householder's life and became ordained as a monk Chudapanthaka then was given the following verse to learn:
Do no evil with body, speech or mind:
Grasp at everything in the world.
He who is empty of desire, mindful, and circumspect
Does not seek suffering or the useless. After three months of study, Chudapanthaka still had not been able to learn the verse, yet nearby the cowherds and other herdsmen had learned it just by overhearing his recitation.

Later, Arya Mahapanthaka pondered whether to use encouragement or criticism to train his brother. Seeing that criticism would be more effective, he grabbed Chudapanthaka by the neck and threw him out of the Jetavana grove, saying, "You are slow, utterly slow! What can you accomplish by being a monk? Stay away!"

Chudapanthaka thought to himself, "Now I am neither an ascetic nor a Brahman," and began to weep sadly.

The Master, the omniscient Lord Buddha, stirred by great compassion, came and asked: "Panthaka, Why are you crying?"

"I was criticized by my preceptor." Chudapanthaka said.

Then Buddha declared: "There is praise by the foolish and criticism by the wise. Criticism by the wise is excellent, not so praise by the foolish." Then Buddha proceeded to say, "Son, your preceptor is not the one who established this teaching after enduring much hardship for three great kalpas in order to complete the six perfections. I am the one who founded it in this way. Would you like to study with the Tathagata?"

"Venerable One, I am slow, very slow, and dull, very dull. How can one such as I study?"

The Buddha again declared: "The fool who knows his foolish nature is thus wise about that. But the fool who thinks himself wise is here truly said to be a fool." Then Buddha gave Chudapanthaka two simple phrases to learn: "I am removing dust," and "I am removing dirt." But Chudapanthaka could not remember them. Then the Blessed One decided to purify him of his bad karma and said, "Panthaka, can you clean the shoes of the bhiksus?"

"Venerable one, I can do that."

"Go then, and clean the shoes and sandals of the bhiksus." The Blessed One also told the bhiksus to allow Chudapanthaka to do this, informing them that its purpose was to remove his bad karma. He further directed that they teach Chudapanthaka to recite the above two phrases. These instructions were carried out and after some time Chudapanthaka finally did learn the two phrases.

Then the Buddha declared, "You need not wipe shoes any longer. Now sweep the temple while reciting the same two phrases."

Although Chudapanthaka swept the temple ground with great vigor, each time he finished cleaning the left side, the Buddha would miraculously cause the left side to become filled with dust. Likewise, each time he finished cleaning the right side, the Buddha would cause the right side to become filled with dust again.

Nonetheless, Chudapanthaka persevered in his efforts until finally his karmic obscurations were cleared away. Then the following thought occurred to him: "When the Buddha taught me the phrases 'I am removing dust, I am removing dirt,' did he mean inner dust or outer dust?" At that moment three verses which he had never before heard came to his mind: This dust is desire, not particles of dirt.
"Dust" is a term for desire, not granules.
The wise rid themselves of this dust
And are attentive to the Sugata's teaching. The second and third verses were the same except that the words "hatred" and "ignorance" respectively replaced "desire." By meditating on the meaning of these verses, Chudapanthaka eventually achieved the status of an Arhat.

The Blessed One, wanting to make Chudapanthaka's virtues known, instructed Ven. Ananda to tell Chudapanthaka that he should teach the bhiksunis (community of the fully-ordained nuns) and after that to tell the bhiksunis that Chudapanthaka would be their teacher. Chudapanthaka, who realized that the Blessed One wished to make known of His disciple's virtues, accepted the instructions.

The bhiksunis, however, were astonished and said, "See how women are humiliated! How can someone who did not learn a single verse after three months teach those such as us, who are holders of the three baskets? We must carry out a plan to make sure that person of little learning will not be able to come here again!"

person · January 2014

From a group of twelve bhiksunis some prepared a very high throne for teaching the Dharma, but they did not attach any kind of staircase. Others announced to the inhabitants of the great city of Sravasti, "A great and extraordinary disciple of the Buddha will come to teach tomorrow. Those who have listened to the Dharma but have not yet seen the Truth will have to wander in samsara for a very long time. Therefore, you should come to hear the Dharma from him." Hundreds of thousands of people gathered, some out of curiosity and others urged by their merits.

The next day Chudapanthaka first went around to receive alms. Then, after arising from a state of inner absorption and accompanied by other bhiksus, he proceeded to the bhiksunis' rainy-season residence to teach Dharma. As he approached the teaching throne and saw that it was extremely high, he wondered whether that had been done out of reverence or scorn. After a brief reflection he realized that the intent was to show scorn. Extending his arm like an elephant's trunk, Chudapanthaka pushed down on the throne and seated himself. Only a few saw how he accomplished this; most did not.

Once seated, Chudapanthaka first entered a state of meditation and became invisible. Then he raised himself into the sky and displayed four types of magical powers in each of the directions. Finally, he withdrew his miraculous presentation and once again seated himself on the lion throne. Then he began his discourse by saying, "Sisters, I would like to explain for seven days the meaning of a verse which took me three months to memorize. When the Blessed One declared, 'Do no evil with body, speech or mind,' He was teaching us to eschew the ten non-virtuous deeds. The phrase 'everything in the world' refers to the five aggregates, and 'grasping' refers to grasping of the 3 poisons - desire, hatred, and ignorance."

After Chudapanthaka taught in details the meaning of only half the verse, twelve thousands of the audience attained realization of Truth and achieved one or more of the four fruits of the path. Some developed an aspiration for the enlightenment of the Hearer's path, others for the enlightenment of the Solitary Realizers' path, and still others for the enlightenment of the Mahayana path .Virtually all gained faith in the Triple Gem.

Afterwards, Chudapanthaka returned to Jetavana where the Lord Buddha declared that, of all His disciples, Chudapanthaka was the most skilled at producing a beneficial change in beings' mind.

So when we clean up our place we should recite the phrase "Remove dust and remove dirt." We should carry out these practices in our daily life.

lamaramadingdong · January 2014

Present and accounted for.

lobster · January 2014

Crusty S Lobster here. At long last I know what the 'S' stands for.

ThailandTom · January 2014

bfg84 said:
Ok so the title for the thread is a little tounge in cheek....but...

as a member of a few different forums across a range of subjects im wondering how come every individual on here seems tobe so eloquent and able to get their message across so poignantly in comparrison with my other forums and to be honest day to day life?

just an observation x

Trust me we exist @bfg84

Linc · January 2014

1) Buddhism is not easily accessible in the west, so most folks have sought it out. That's a significant filter.

2) Our moderators are significant filters and the community is over ten years old. Even if you've only gotten here recently, you benefit from the accumulated culture.

jae · January 2014

@Hamsaka..... I saw this recently and thought you may like it...

seeker242 · January 2014

anataman said:

What is interesting it that he probably already knows before even saying that, that it's impossible for science to prove no rebirth, etc. so there is no problem in saying that. He already knows that science can't prove it wrong to begin with. Although, it makes a nice sentiment that appeals to science minded people.

genkaku · January 2014

A guy I know who is sometimes referred to as a "Zen teacher" once said he was sick to death of Zen (and possibly Buddhism) being a pastime for "rich, white guys." He vowed to change all that, but after all these years, I have my doubts about whether he succeeded.

You kind of know what he was talking about ... everyone so slick and smooth and full of explanations about ... well, explanations about whatever. I know there was a time when I felt as if I were dumber than a box of rocks and longed to be as slick and smooth and knowledgeable. But the one question I never asked -- and the one I think deserves asking of those with well-honed explanations -- was this: "If you're so smart, how come you're not happy?"

No one ever took up Buddhism because they were so damned happy. Anyone who's really happy hasn't got time for nonsense: Happiness fills the bill. So my take these days on anyone brimming with smooth explanations is that they aren't yet happy, but they sure wish they were ... a yappy is as close to happy as they have gotten to date.

Now let me go and take a long hard look in the bathroom mirror.

Beej · January 2014

i am stupid. dumb as dirt. simple as sand. if i say anything that sounds remotely intelligent, it is an instance of pure dumb, stupid, simple luck.

genkaku · January 2014

i am stupid. dumb as dirt. simple as sand.

@TheBeejAbides -- Sounds like smart-guy talk to me.

how · January 2014

@genkaku

Beings trying to address the human condition often mistakenly think the changing of ones dress from the worldly to the religious as being sufficient to deal with their dis-ease. . The worst case scenario results in compounded delusion where the real source of ones suffering can no longer be recognized and there they stay. The best case scenario is where one recognizes such folly and it is dropped for the identity trap that it is.
I think it is not happiness or it's lack, that is as important on the path as how unhindered we are by either.

lobster · January 2014

Good points guys.
@how change of lifestyle does provide limited stability and improvement. That very often is required for the hopelessly unstable or miserable. You can not practice or think about happiness if you are [insert difficulty].

As for the smug zennees or life avoiding lamers/lamas/sangha. It would be stupid to not also, as said, be clear about our avoidance, self delusion and hankering after the facile answers etc.

How can we be smarter? Honesty and integrity with ourselves perhaps.

We know what is good for us. Deep down we know what is genuinely required and what traits are worthy of emulation. We don't have to be smart at all . . .

Nek777 · January 2014

seeker242 said:

anataman said:
What is interesting it that he probably already knows before even saying that, that it's impossible for science to prove no rebirth, etc. so there is no problem in saying that. He already knows that science can't prove it wrong to begin with. Although, it makes a nice sentiment that appeals to science minded people.

Not sure - if science can prove that mental states are definitively brain states, that it only functions one way, then Buddhism will have some problems.

Jeffrey · January 2014

Nek777 said:

seeker242 said:

anataman said:
What is interesting it that he probably already knows before even saying that, that it's impossible for science to prove no rebirth, etc. so there is no problem in saying that. He already knows that science can't prove it wrong to begin with. Although, it makes a nice sentiment that appeals to science minded people.

Not sure - if science can prove that mental states are definitively brain states, that it only functions one way, then Buddhism will have some problems.

Thinking that mind and body are separate only causes suffering.

seeker242 · January 2014

Nek777 said:

Not sure - if science can prove that mental states are definitively brain states, that it only functions one way, then Buddhism will have some problems.

That is a really, really, really, really, big IF. But, what is rebirth is not even a function of a "mental state" to begin with? In order to really disprove it, they would have to devise some way to go along with a person after they die and have them report back to the living with some scientific results. But, science just can't go past death. It's impossible.

Nek777 · January 2014

Jeffrey said:

Nek777 said:

seeker242 said:

anataman said:
What is interesting it that he probably already knows before even saying that, that it's impossible for science to prove no rebirth, etc. so there is no problem in saying that. He already knows that science can't prove it wrong to begin with. Although, it makes a nice sentiment that appeals to science minded people.

Not sure - if science can prove that mental states are definitively brain states, that it only functions one way, then Buddhism will have some problems.
Thinking that mind and body are separate only causes suffering.

I think that depends on your skillfulness in using the duality.

Nek777 · January 2014

seeker242 said:

Nek777 said:

Not sure - if science can prove that mental states are definitively brain states, that it only functions one way, then Buddhism will have some problems.
That is a really, really, really, really, big IF. But, what is rebirth is not even a function of a "mental state" to begin with? In order to really disprove it, they would have to devise some way to go along with a person after they die and have them report back to the living with some scientific results. But, science just can't go past death. It's impossible.

Not saying it will be done, but if mind is reduced to matter then the Buddhist theories of causation are in trouble. That is mind and matter contribute to the origination of each other, one is not the substantial cause of the other. If mind is caused only by matter then there is no preceding moment of mind that causes mind. Which is trouble for rebirth.

HH Dalai Lama goes into this in more detail in the book Universe in A Single Atom.

Jeffrey · January 2014

some buddhists don't believe in a stream of causative moments. That would be shentong understanding of emptiness.

My dimensionless point versus a line post is from the vibe of shentong.

In other words a stream of moments is not cause and effect because not even a single moment can be found. If you cannot find a single moment then cause and effect go out the window.

I am not saying any sect is wrong, rather I am just pointing out the diverse views as Buddhists practice.

Nek777 · January 2014

Jeffrey said:
some buddhists don't believe in a stream of causative moments. That would be shentong understanding of emptiness.

My dimensionless point versus a line post is from the vibe of shentong.

In other words a stream of moments is not cause and effect because not even a single moment can be found. If you cannot find a single moment then cause and effect go out the window.

I am not saying any sect is wrong, rather I am just pointing out the diverse views as Buddhists practice.

Hmmm... I'll have to look into that, sounds interesting. I have always understood that the conventional and ultimate truths were fairly accepted in Tibetan Buddhism, with most discussion dealing with how to account for emptiness or the ultimate truth.

Sounds maybe similar to yogacara..

Nevermind · January 2014

lobster said:

Good points guys.
@how change of lifestyle does provide limited stability and improvement. That very often is required for the hopelessly unstable or miserable. You can not practice or think about happiness if you are [insert difficulty].

As for the smug zennees or life avoiding lamers/lamas/sangha. It would be stupid to not also, as said, be clear about our avoidance, self delusion and hankering after the facile answers etc.

How can we be smarter? Honesty and integrity with ourselves perhaps.

We know what is good for us. Deep down we know what is genuinely required and what traits are worthy of emulation. We don't have to be smart at all . . .

Of course we don't have to be smart, hence the course we're on. :-/

how · January 2014

.

lobster said:

Good points guys.
@how change of lifestyle does provide limited stability and improvement. That very often is required for the hopelessly unstable or miserable. You can not practice or think about happiness if you are [insert difficulty].

As for the smug zennees or life avoiding lamers/lamas/sangha. It would be stupid to not also, as said, be clear about our avoidance, self delusion and hankering after the facile answers etc.

How can we be smarter? Honesty and integrity with ourselves perhaps.

We know what is good for us. Deep down we know what is genuinely required and what traits are worthy of emulation. We don't have to be smart at all . . .

@Lobster

Not suffering is manifesting the 4NT, 8FP and D.O. whereas clinging to the experience of happiness or lifestyle is suffering.
Guess what option is the smart one?

Theswingisyellow · January 2014

To the OP: right here.
I know the roots of my suffering, being a Buddhist one has a good grasp of suffering, yet I continue to nourish those roots.

Wisdom23 · January 2014

Because we're awesome :-P

bfg84 · January 2014

Theswingisyellow said:
To the OP: right here.
I know the roots of my suffering, being a Buddhist one has a good grasp of suffering, yet I continue to nourish those roots.

me to my friend x

DairyLama · January 2014

federica said:
I remember seeing a sign in a car, a sticker which read "Buddhism is for the intelligentsia".

Oh yes, us Boodhists are much more intelligenter than the average hooman bean.

Kundo · January 2014

Where are all the stupid buddhists?

Sorry I've been away. You can all relax though, I'm back :P

lobster · January 2014

The KISS principle (Keep It Simple Sadhu) has always worked for me. I don't have the intellectual noodle power to understand Yogacara or how many Jhani make a Bhumi. Can I stop the stress of being human and live in a better place for all concerned?

When things are well I practice, when things are not well I practice. The more I practice the better. Simple really.

:wave:

Jeffrey · January 2014

Yogacara isn't complicated. Just be spacious.

DairyLama · January 2014

Jeffrey said:
Just be spacious.

I wish I understood that...

sova · January 2014

bfg84 said:
Where are all the stupid Buddhists?

present! :wave:

(@lamaramadingdong i salute thee my fellow)

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