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Question

BunksBunks Australia Veteran
I was pondering this question this morning:

If all human beings were to become enlightened at the same moment in time, then how could women become pregnant as there would be no one left to be born into the human realm. Then it dawned on me that no human being would have the desire to have sex anymore so that kinda makes sense.......

The last one to leave please turn out the lights.

I'm off to meditate. :om:

Comments

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    I don't think killing off the human race is a mark of enlightenment.
    anataman
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    The six realms cosmology has accounting problems.

    Math gets weird when infinities are involved and the orthodox six realms cosmology said there is an infinite amount of time and nearly infinite beings. You'd think that if beings were infinite and samsara has been going on infinitely, that surely we'd all be moved to nirvana (for math heads, nirvana is an absorbing state and the six realms is a markov chain, so given enough time, everything moving among the seven states will end up in nirvana, even if the process is slow and inefficient)
    jaeBunkscvalue
  • jaejae Veteran
    @Nevermind .... good for you!!
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    Wow, @Jae, and all along I thought it was just a hormone deficiency.
    jae
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited January 2014
    There are beings across the universes, if all humans become enlightened and the race died out... Id call that WINNING...

    I doubt this has happened more then once or twice in the history of samsara.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited January 2014
    Who is to say that enlightened human beings would not procreate simply to offer vessels for unresolved karma to fill and find resolution in.
    seanDobsEthan_McCune
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    "if everyone became enlightened all at once" how good that would be! :D
    BunksEthan_McCune
  • A lot of beings who have had a degree of awakening have had children. But I haven't heard of a full Buddha or arhant having children.
  • How enlightened would they wake up to be?

    The idea that the enlightened live on moon beams, only have sex with consenting nagas and generally behave like an ephemeral weirdo does not equate with my experience or Mr Cushions.

    It might well entail considerate lovers, humane diets, competitive giving, 'passion' over animals, vegetation and nature being treated with due care and compassion and so on. We might even listen to the words of enlightened vedantists, sufis, pagans, mystics and other assorted non Buddhists . . .

    What is that Mr Cushion? The weirdo bit is true? OK point taken.

    :wave:
    HamsakaDharmaMcBum
  • In the world of the Enlightened, the Unenlightened man is king.
    lobstersova
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    how said:

    Who is to say that enlightened human beings would not procreate simply to offer vessels for unresolved karma to fill and find resolution in.

    Just for the hell of it?

    If we were all enlightened we'd likely keep the human race going. If we were all enlightened, there would be no greed or an us and them complex and so Nirvana would actually be right here and right now.
    seanHamsaka
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited February 2014

    The six realms cosmology has accounting problems.

    Math gets weird when infinities are involved and the orthodox six realms cosmology said there is an infinite amount of time and nearly infinite beings. You'd think that if beings were infinite and samsara has been going on infinitely, that surely we'd all be moved to nirvana (for math heads, nirvana is an absorbing state and the six realms is a markov chain, so given enough time, everything moving among the seven states will end up in nirvana, even if the process is slow and inefficient)

    Except this seems to be based on a couple of assumptions.

    One, which is contrary to how it's generally portrayed in Mahayana traditions, is that nirvana is an 'absorbing state.' In Mahayana, however, nirvana is just one stage on the path to full enlightenment. Once entered, it can be left. According to the Saddharmapundarika Sutra, for example, it's said that buddhas are able to awaken arahants from their temporary cessation (i.e., being intoxicated with the 'bliss of the samadhi of cessation' = nirvana) in order for them to continue towards complete buddhahood, which is characterized by omniscience.

    The second assumption is that we're all moving towards nirvana in some sort of blind, teleological fashion when awakening generally requires a certain number of supporting conditions (SN 12.23). However you define 'moving' and 'nirvana,' it's an assumption all beings are heading towards it; but there's no reason to assume this from the suttas or how the six realms are generally framed in Theravada. In the Pali Canon, for example, there are at least two places where the question of whether all beings will attain liberation is addressed. The first is AN 10.95, where Uttiya the wanderer, after asking a number of other metaphysical questions, asks the Buddha if all the world will reach release, or a half of it, or a third. In this instance, the Buddha remains silent, and Ananda gives an analogy to explain the Buddha's silence:
    "Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

    "In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way. That's why he didn't respond."
    The second reference is in the Questions of King Milinda, a later work that's included in the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Burmese edition of Pali Canon, but not in Thai or Sri Lankan versions. Here, King Milinda asks whether everyone attains nibbana, to which the Ven. Nagasena (an arahant who's thought to have lived some time around 150 BCE) responds:
    “Not all, O king; but whoever conducts himself rightly, understands what should be understood, perceives what should be perceived, abandons what should be abandoned, develops what should be developed and realises what should be realised; he attains nibbāna.”
    In addition, another potential objection to this (although it may be wrong from a theoretical mathematical perspective since I'm not all that familiar with the concepts of markov chains, absorbing points, and infinite variables) is that, if there are infinite beings and infinite amount of time, then there's the potential for there to be an infinite number of both awakened and non-awakened beings.

    As for the OP, I think it's an interesting question if utilized as a koan, although I think it'd be more effective in that regard if it was rephrased to 'all beings' instead of 'all human beings.'

    That said, there are logical answers to the question as posed, i.e., how people could still be born in the human realm if all human beings were to become enlightened at the same moment in time (assuming, of course, that enlightenment = no more sexy time). One is that, even if every human being became enlightened at the exact same moment in time (which isn't very likely to happen, in my opinion), there's still the possibility that people could have gotten pregnant before becoming 'enlightened' and, because there are numerous 'unenlightened' beings in other realms, bear children in the human realm.

    Those are some of my thoughts on the discussion, at any rate.
    Bunks
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    dunno

    Ha ha! Funny reading your post after Jason's.

  • Hi,
    i prefer the terme awakening, because it shows more content. Also awakened people can stillget pregnant. Awakening is not the end.

    anando
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Cinorjer said:

    In the world of the Enlightened, the Unenlightened man is king.

    Clarify....?

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    I have to really question this " even if we are all enlightened we would still procreate" concept... I mean the whole concept of a whole species being enlightened is ridiculous to begin with, but playing along...

    why would awakened ones be attached to the concept of a species and it's need to continue when all things are impermanent? it makes little sense to me... having to "keep the species alive" smacks of attachment, aversion, and delusion... something of which we are told awakened ones do not perform actions out of.

    even if it's "out of compassion"... 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct... when it's a species time it's a species time...and like I said in my above post, I'd think it would be a mark of a successful run if a species was able to have all of it's members become awakened...what further need is there to "keep the species going" from there?
    Dandelionpegembaraanataman
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    I have to really question this " even if we are all enlightened we would still procreate" concept... I mean the whole concept of a whole species being enlightened is ridiculous to begin with, but playing along...

    why would awakened ones be attached to the concept of a species and it's need to continue when all things are impermanent? it makes little sense to me... having to "keep the species alive" smacks of attachment, aversion, and delusion... something of which we are told awakened ones do not perform actions out of.

    even if it's "out of compassion"... 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct... when it's a species time it's a species time...and like I said in my above post, I'd think it would be a mark of a successful run if a species was able to have all of it's members become awakened...what further need is there to "keep the species going" from there?

    For the experience. The universe isn't going to stop changing just because the humans are awake.

    You say a global awakening would mean the end but I say it would likely be just another beginning.
    Kundoanataman
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    I have to really question this " even if we are all enlightened we would still procreate" concept... I mean the whole concept of a whole species being enlightened is ridiculous to begin with, but playing along...

    why would awakened ones be attached to the concept of a species and it's need to continue when all things are impermanent? it makes little sense to me... having to "keep the species alive" smacks of attachment, aversion, and delusion... something of which we are told awakened ones do not perform actions out of.

    even if it's "out of compassion"... 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct... when it's a species time it's a species time...and like I said in my above post, I'd think it would be a mark of a successful run if a species was able to have all of it's members become awakened...what further need is there to "keep the species going" from there?

    I agree. My fairly basic understanding of Buddhism is that people are born into the human realm because they are yet to be awakened / enlightened and are still caught in samsara. Not just for a bit of fun.......

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Used to just be the right color .... of the right religion....of the right gender.....and now it is the right species? All very ego centric views that seem too limited to have to worry about enlightenment just yet.
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    I have to really question this " even if we are all enlightened we would still procreate" concept... I mean the whole concept of a whole species being enlightened is ridiculous to begin with, but playing along...

    why would awakened ones be attached to the concept of a species and it's need to continue when all things are impermanent? it makes little sense to me... having to "keep the species alive" smacks of attachment, aversion, and delusion... something of which we are told awakened ones do not perform actions out of.

    even if it's "out of compassion"... 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct... when it's a species time it's a species time...and like I said in my above post, I'd think it would be a mark of a successful run if a species was able to have all of it's members become awakened...what further need is there to "keep the species going" from there?

    The Smithsonian?

    Kundo
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    I think it's good to remember that humans were not always here nor are we likely done evolving.

    What was this realm for before we evolved into humans?

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Bunks said:



    Jayantha said:

    I have to really question this " even if we are all enlightened we would still procreate" concept... I mean the whole concept of a whole species being enlightened is ridiculous to begin with, but playing along...

    why would awakened ones be attached to the concept of a species and it's need to continue when all things are impermanent? it makes little sense to me... having to "keep the species alive" smacks of attachment, aversion, and delusion... something of which we are told awakened ones do not perform actions out of.

    even if it's "out of compassion"... 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct... when it's a species time it's a species time...and like I said in my above post, I'd think it would be a mark of a successful run if a species was able to have all of it's members become awakened...what further need is there to "keep the species going" from there?

    I agree. My fairly basic understanding of Buddhism is that people are born into the human realm because they are yet to be awakened / enlightened and are still caught in samsara. Not just for a bit of fun.......

    You make it sound like it's all part of some divine plan.
  • federica said:

    Cinorjer said:

    In the world of the Enlightened, the Unenlightened man is king.

    Because your picture of utopia has to be false, so that means someone is fooling people. People won't stop being what they are. Children raised by enlightened parents don't automatically become enlightened. Mental illness will not magically be cured.

    Clarify....?

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    For all to be enlightened, one must remain in the dark;
    For one to be enlightened, all must have been in the dark.
    Hamsaka
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    This is a ridiculous answer to your ridiculous question @Bunks:
    Bunks said:

    I was pondering this question this morning:

    If all human beings were to become enlightened at the same moment in time, then how could women become pregnant as there would be no one left to be born into the human realm. Then it dawned on me that no human being would have the desire to have sex anymore so that kinda makes sense.......

    The last one to leave please turn out the lights.

    I'm off to meditate. :om:



    First lets start from the end to the beginning

    Are you going/Did you really go to meditate @Bunks? ?? ???? ?????????????????

    Don't tun the lights off because I am not leaving - sorry guys! @Bunks is just creating something else Karmikly riddled with crap! And I'm a Buddhist Dung Beatle tonight, Yum Yum Yum, I haven't tasted crap like this since this I was born as a, as a, Dung beetle - still got a load of crap to get through!

    Mahayana isn't about the instantaneous ending of the world as we know it!, and the ending of all sensuality. It's about all of us attaining some form of wisdom that exists simultaneously. Then we can continue being in a selfless way that enables universal happiness and perhaps we could have a party, rather than being sucked into the nihilistic black shit hole that awaits @Bunks unless he gets his 'esra' reversed into the right gear - yes I'm challenging you sir to step up to the mark!

    Pistols at dawn - sorry it will have to be at midday if I can be bothered, because I'm going out for a long bicycle ride at 7 am GMT!

    Come on you must be able to do better than that.



    Bunksbetaboy
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited February 2014
    @anatman - WtF?

    I think I need more caffeine. Your lobster impersonation is pretty lousy.
  • Didn't know there are dung beetles in the hell realm. :)
  • @anatman - WtF?

    I think I need more caffeine. Your lobster impersonation is pretty lousy.

    Do not take my name in vain ;)
    The enlightened kabbalists and Sufis are likely to be married and see procreation as a Hieros Gamos activity or Big Bang
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos
    The enlightened pagans are often partial to a bit of cosmic interplay.
    A bit of enlightenment and a few monks and nuns might marry or find Yab-yum is really a symbolic enactment of itself . . .

    The human race will continue . . . and now back to the cosmic caffeine ritual . . .
    anatamanbetaboy
  • @anatman - WtF?

    I think I need more caffeine. Your lobster impersonation is pretty lousy.

    I'm pretty sure he just burned a fatty. He'll make more sense in the morning.
    VastmindjaeanatamanKundo
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    .... and the six realms is a markov chain..

    I just looked up Wiki on markov chains, and it says this: "It is a random process usually characterized as memoryless: the next state depends only on the current state and not on the sequence of events that preceded it."

    This is actually the complete opposite of kamma, the mechanism that "distributes" beings around the realms.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    ourself said:

    What was this realm for before we evolved into humans?

    Space aliens? What was that book, "Chariot of the gods" by Herbert von Danish Pastry ( or something )...:p

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    @anatman - WtF?

    I think I need more caffeine. Your lobster impersonation is pretty lousy.

    I'm not that crusty just lousy! I had to sit through someone else's crappy whining life last night and had to absorb it., because my wife said I had to - it all came out when I got home half cut because I just kept downing the wine to dampen the endless 'whoa is me' then re-read this 'question' and thought - I know I post shit, but this is seemed to be shittier...

    Anyway, I had a stiff double brandy and let it all go last night - not sure what a fatty is I am assuming a spliff @robot- ain't done one of them in a very very very long time!
    Sorry if you were all offended but when you take in other peoples angst and neediness, you sometimes need to let it vent somewhere and somehow - action - reaction; I passed @bunks the monkey on my back, and he laughed it off - well done that man and thank you!! but really, WTF was this really about? Not Mahayana buddhism - trolling, and you found a good hit!

    Mettha




    Bunks
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    fivebells said:

    Didn't know there are dung beetles in the hell realm. :)

    No they exist here and now! 'Qu'ils mangent de la merde' as some great french woman said before she became fat with another dung beetle's brood.

    Now that's a (poor) impression of @lobster!
  • Nonsense. What if you are carrying a fetus when you "become enlightened" can your enlightenment somehow be transferred? If so at what point in its development is this possible etc...?

    Perhaps the Agganna Sutta, or what I affectionately refer to as the Sutta of Licking Mushrooms, requires a closer examination.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    I agree with the nonsense.

    Try licking a hallucinogenic toad:



    I can tell you that it tastes like - well what do you think licking a bloody toad tastes like?
  • jaejae Veteran
    @anataman.... I think I'd rather not know!!! ;)
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Silouan said:

    Nonsense. What if you are carrying a fetus when you "become enlightened" can your enlightenment somehow be transferred? If so at what point in its development is this possible etc...?

    Perhaps the Agganna Sutta, or what I affectionately refer to as the Sutta of Licking Mushrooms, requires a closer examination.

    Actually, since we're talking nonsense anyways, maybe after a certain point the illusion of separation falls away in an instinctual manner. Imagine a child instinctively knowing that its individuality is just convention.

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2014
    now now... here is a song from Family Guy about the dangers of licking toad...and forget getting lucky... it falls off LOL
  • I have never had the personal experience of tasting a bloody toad but my dog has, and other than his foaming at the mouth he could not adequately describe his experience to me and I had no point of reference. I guess it must be this limitation of language I keep hearing about when used to describe very personal experiences.

    However, I have tasted a black toad. It tastes like a stout ale, with very little carbonation, fairly alcoholic, and has a very smoke flavor. I think if you remove the 4% pasteurized spoiled portion out of Guinness and then add some drops of smoke BBQ flavoring you will have the general idea, but you will have to taste it for yourself to really experience all the complexity of flavor.
    anataman
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Silouan said:

    Perhaps the Agganna Sutta, or what I affectionately refer to as the Sutta of Licking Mushrooms, requires a closer examination.

    There's nothing wrong with licking mushrooms. How do you think they first stumbled across the jhanas? :p
    anataman
  • anataman said:

    I agree with the nonsense.

    Try licking a hallucinogenic toad:



    I can tell you that it tastes like - well what do you think licking a bloody toad tastes like?

    Mom's cooking?
    anataman
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