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Somebody gave me a bottle of wine three weeks ago of which I had three glasses two one day and one the next. If I was an alcoholic, no alcohol, ever. I am not, so occasionally drink. Precepts, rules and abstention have their uses.
Moslems do not drink, Sikhs do not smoke, Buddhists do not judge. . . . well that is the theory . . .
I'm not talking about pronunciation. I'm talking about meaning. And most Americans and other Westerners don't realize the reason behind the correction.
I'm not talking about pronunciation. I'm talking about meaning. And most Americans and other Westerners don't realize the reason behind the correction.
I'm not talking about pronunciation. I'm talking about meaning. And most Americans and other Westerners don't realize the reason behind the correction.
Thankfully, we all have the power of Google at our fingertips.
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matthewmartinAmateur BodhisattvaSuburbs of Mt MeruVeteran
Typically done over ordinary water to transform it. The mind boggles as to what would happen if said "oṃ bhaiṣajye bhaiṣajye mahābhaiṣajya-samudgate svāhā" 108 times over a glass of red wine.
Moslems do not drink, Sikhs do not smoke, Buddhists do not judge. . . . well that is the theory . . .
Cheers.
Good point.
I used to drink, but now just don't bother with it. I wouldn't say that I am tea-total, as I might have the very occasional drink. I don't really like to be mindless and I think even a small amount takes me down that road.
My apologies I did not mean to insult your parents, whom I am sure are terrible Buddhists but excellent spellers. :oops:
Just for them . . .
WINE, which is strictly forbidden in Islam, was used as a word-symbol by the Sufi's to denote spiritual knowledge, and the WINE-SELLER means the spiritual guide. http://www.spiritualfoundation.net/sufisymbolism.htm
I watched the first 15 seconds and that was enough @jll.
I used to drink to the point of blacking out most weekends. I have possible done irreversible damage to my brain and liver.
I now have maybe one beer or glass of wine most days of the week but the temptation is always there........it's a struggle but one I know I'll win! I am a strong willed person.
Our liver is a tough organ and it can take a lot of stick from booze; I've been told there's a 'tipping point' where if we stop drinking our liver will recover, but if we drink past this tipping point, our liver's are permanently knackered.
And the huge red flag I see with your drinking isn't the blackouts, it's you having one beer or glass of wine most days of the week after a little of telling us about your drinking history. Firstly, it really does surprise me that you can stick at one. If it were me, I'd have one and then really REALLY crave for more. There'd be occasions where I'd drink more than what I planned. Does this happen to you?
And when alcohol becomes a problem, we don't drink it for the taste, we're drinking for the effect (I personally can't see the reason why people drink for the taste; what's the point in that?).
I like the kipper analogy. If we loved kippers, but were allergic to fish, and they messed us up, we'd just stop eating kippers, no matter how much we loved the taste. We wouldn't then be like, 'well, I'll just have a little bit of herring everyday', or 'a large piece of cod at the weekend would be nice'. We'd just stop eating fish.
So why is it you're still playing around with alcohol? And I personally don't rate will power. Buddhism doesn't rate will power either - we use karma (we create causes and conditions) - we don't try and force the will by using the will; it's a battle we'll usually lose.
My apologies I did not mean to insult your parents, whom I am sure are terrible Buddhists but excellent spellers. :oops:
Just for them . . .
WINE, which is strictly forbidden in Islam, was used as a word-symbol by the Sufi's to denote spiritual knowledge, and the WINE-SELLER means the spiritual guide. http://www.spiritualfoundation.net/sufisymbolism.htm
and now back to the abstainers . . .
What is the purpose of this post? Is it an apology? Doesn't really seem like one. Maybe a kind of stingy one. Is it about Buddhism and alcohol? How? Was someone looking for information on Sufism? Is it an advertisement for your web surfing skills?
And now back to watching crap on tv and snuggling with my iPad....
It is opportunity to see past wrong speech, wrong spelling, stingy apologies, hypocrisy and not be drunk on our self righteousness. Perhaps you will demonstrate the perfect apology? Perhaps not. For now I am sorry for the limitations of your perception and my unskillfulness. . . . and now back to the . . . choices . . .
None of my posts are perfect. All of them have a purpose. All of them have a context. It is precisely about how in a sense we are all befuddled by the intoxicants of our limitations.
However we must always remember the point of Buddhism is to point at someone else and say, 'Dunkard', 'ignoramus', 'Dharmic failure' etc . . . oh sorry . . . that is exactly not the point . . . [Lobster fails again]
It is opportunity to see past wrong speech, wrong spelling, stingy apologies, hypocrisy and not be drunk on our self righteousness. Perhaps you will demonstrate the perfect apology? Perhaps not. For now I am sorry for the limitations of your perception and my unskillfulness. . . . and now back to the . . . choices . . .
None of my posts are perfect. All of them have a purpose. All of them have a context. It is precisely about how in a sense we are all befuddled by the intoxicants of our limitations.
However we must always remember the point of Buddhism is to point at someone else and say, 'Dunkard', 'ignoramus', 'Dharmic failure' etc . . . oh sorry . . . that is exactly not the point . . . [Lobster fails again]
Excellent response! Easy enough for someone with limited perception, like myself, to understand, and without undue and annoying jocularity. Well done! Not so much on the apology.
Sorry, for criticizing your post @Lobster. Sometimes I don't get you and I get thinking that the person you were responding to won't either. It's not my place to be the rescue ranger.
But! The last time we had this conversation you said that your response was appropriate and skillful. I don't think the OP to whom you responded ever came back after that exchange, so we will never know.
Views change depending on your level of ignorance @robot. And what's niggling you about your practice!
I find I have to read @lobsters posts about 20 times to establish the underlying reason and content and then have to put it in context and then read it again, and occasionally I get what @lobsters teaching. Sometimes I don't get it all so just put it down to skilfully targeting the person its offered to.
As you can see I'm bored of this post now, it's not transformed me in any way, and like everything else it looks as if it is ageing and coming to a natural death. I'll recite medicine buddha mantra for everyone here with a drink problem and those who don't.
My view is changing rapidly, so is my practice and so is my avatar, it was not permanent and about to die. Now with renewed effort I am going to practice the 8-fold path with renewed effort as the garden I had designed has grown a lot of weeds in it. And the thorn bushes have come back in a greater number than before. Can anyone remind me from memory without looking them up what they are?
For the record....@lobster....It's getting harder and harder for me to understand your posts as well... Maybe it;s my old brain....or limited references or poor puzzling skills.... I dunno....I'm more than willing to listen if your willing to be a little more straight forward with me...Your little lobster heart sure is in the right place, and I want to benefit from it.
For the taste question Tosh raised, I think it just depends on the person. My teenager is a coffee afficianado. He cannot for the life of him understand how I can drink gas station coffee, and he will only drink certain types of whole bean coffee. He has a different coffee palate I guess. I don't drink hardly any juice, pop, koolaid or anything like that. I drink about 3 liters of water a day, and I drink tea. So when I am on date night with my husband or some other occasion, I don't always like to have water with my meal, and thus sometimes, a beer or a glass of wine just tastes nice. I couldn't tell you what about it makes it hit the spot, but the best I can do is that for me, it's just different because 99% of what I drink is water and tea. Since all restaurants here have is Lipton tea from a bag, which is not my preference, then my only option is water which just gets boring when you already drink 3 liters a day, lol.
I personally love lobsters posts. My oldest son, likes crappy food. Why? Because he is always on the go and it's fast and easy to eat. He doesn't like to have to work at chewing his food, so he likes the type where he can take a whole mouthful and have it down in 2-3 chews. Sometimes, I feel like posts where the person is taking an exceptional amount of time to ensure they are understood (like I do) aren't doing anyone any favors. Sometimes you NEED a post to chew on. Just like you need some good food to chew on. It's a good thing. We don't always need to be spoon fed baby food.
Most of Lobsters posts are just course corrections when the good ship lolly pop (NB) seem to be heading towards the rocks of self righteousness. Pride and identity on a Buddhist website for all things Buddhist, are the attachments that usually tend to be the most difficult to see and & address within ourselves.
For the taste question Tosh raised, I think it just depends on the person.
Maybe I didn't explain it properly. What I'm saying is that for a certain type of drinker, the taste of alcohol isn't even a factor; in fact I know alcoholics who say they didn't even enjoy the taste (I did mind).
@Bunks said he/she had been drinking enough to black out. Now blacking out isn't passing out; blacking out is still walking/talking and is usually followed by passing out. And when we regain consciousness we have no memory of what we'd done, or how we had gotten home. I can infer a lot of things from people who black out, because I did the same. For example I understand the fear and anxiousness on waking up. How did I get home? Did I abuse anyone? Am I in any kind of trouble? Did I make an idiot of myself? I also understand the kinds of stuff we can do when we black out.
An exercise my sponsor set me was to list five crazy/stupid things I'd done, in the rough order that I done them in, that I blamed on my drinking. My list looked something like this:
1. Beat a friend up at the Rhine Army Summer Show (I felt terrible about it). 2. Went AWOL and joined the French Foriegn Legion (25 days in jail for this). 3. On return from Gulf War 1, went AWOL for two days (21 days in jail for this). 4. Fell off the side of a building I'd been climbing while drunk (could've died). 5. Urinated in lots of different places and beds (obviously embarrassing and affects self esteem).
My sponsor discussed each in turn, "Like, oh, so you beat a friend up because you were drunk and then you drank again did you?"
I was like, "Yeh, of course?" And then he'd say, "Oh, so you got drunk and then went AWOL, not once, but twice? And then you drank again?" And I'm like "Er, Yeh...", because I could start to see where the problem was. It wasn't the drinking, it was the thinking preceding my first drink.
He was pointing out the the crazy/insane thing isn't that I do crazy/insane things while I'm drinking, but that given my drinking history, THAT I STILL CONTINUED TO PICK UP THAT FIRST DRINK UP.
There are places in our state (I assume they are in other areas of the US and maybe the world, too?) called wet houses that are basically safe houses where alcoholics can live out their days drinking. The people who run them seem to be great, compassionate people but I'm not sure how I feel about the concept. It seems to be giving into people's ego needs for something that is harmful to them. But at the same time, if those people are going to make that choice anyhow, at least they aren't out driving, aren't out on the streets, have a safe and warm place to live out their days. It would be a difficult thing to provide for people.
It seems to be giving into people's ego needs for something that is harmful to them. But at the same time, if those people are going to make that choice anyhow,
Who says they have choice in the matter? Choice indicates freewill. Do we have freewill? Well dependent arising explains to me that everything depends upon causes and conditions and therefore the will cannot be free.
It seems to be giving into people's ego needs for something that is harmful to them.
Could you expand upon this? I think the alcoholic's need for alcohol is more of a spiritual thirst (and Carl Jung agrees with me), rather than a problem with the ego.
However you will meet alcoholics with a massive ego, but that's simply because they have low self esteem and try to hide it with a big personality. The ego here is a result of something and not the cause of their alcoholism.
It depends on the person, I suppose. I didn't mean to generalize to all people, I lived with an alcoholic for a number of years so my only experience personally was with him. Choice was a bad word to use, I realize that most people who are alcoholics (perhaps all of them) aren't really making a conscious choice. I saw how it drew my ex and how he had no choice but to drink it if it were there, but for *him* it did seem to come down to a choice of whether to go out and buy it, because often times he would choose not to, but then when he did he'd drink 30 beers in a few hours.
Those interviewed for the articles I have read about the wet house did seem say they made a choice to not want to get sober and instead live out their lives drinking in a safe environment, and when I said they make that choice, that is more what I meant, I did a bad job explaining that, sorry, lol. I was in a hurry, had company coming over so I didn't finish my thoughts well. This is one of the articles I read: http://www.twincities.com/ci_16774107
As for the ego thing, I'm not really talking about the psychological ego as in a larger than life arrogant person. Just more so that except our very basic survival needs our other needs seem to come from somewhere else, and I'm not so sure that doing something just to fulfill their need (regardless of what that need is beyond those who need help with basic survival) is a good thing. Obviously all people have needs of some sort. But I think a lot of the time one person perceives something as a need and they expect someone else to meet that need for them, despite the fact that doing so might go against the needs that another person has. I just don't think that expecting people to meet our needs is necessarily a good thing and it causes a lot of problems for people when those needs aren't met, when really they should be able to develop the ability to provide for those needs themselves. Kind of the same idea behind people who get into relationships looking for the other person to complete them, which isn't possible, nor is it possible for them to make the other person happy. But we fall into that trap a lot and I think we do the same thing when it comes to thinking we can, or should, meet the needs of everyone who demands it.
I watched the first 15 seconds and that was enough @jll.
I used to drink to the point of blacking out most weekends. I have possible done irreversible damage to my brain and liver.
I now have maybe one beer or glass of wine most days of the week but the temptation is always there........it's a struggle but one I know I'll win! I am a strong willed person.
Our liver is a tough organ and it can take a lot of stick from booze; I've been told there's a 'tipping point' where if we stop drinking our liver will recover, but if we drink past this tipping point, our liver's are permanently knackered.
And the huge red flag I see with your drinking isn't the blackouts, it's you having one beer or glass of wine most days of the week after a little of telling us about your drinking history. Firstly, it really does surprise me that you can stick at one. If it were me, I'd have one and then really REALLY crave for more. There'd be occasions where I'd drink more than what I planned. Does this happen to you?
And when alcohol becomes a problem, we don't drink it for the taste, we're drinking for the effect (I personally can't see the reason why people drink for the taste; what's the point in that?).
I like the kipper analogy. If we loved kippers, but were allergic to fish, and they messed us up, we'd just stop eating kippers, no matter how much we loved the taste. We wouldn't then be like, 'well, I'll just have a little bit of herring everyday', or 'a large piece of cod at the weekend would be nice'. We'd just stop eating fish.
So why is it you're still playing around with alcohol? And I personally don't rate will power. Buddhism doesn't rate will power either - we use karma (we create causes and conditions) - we don't try and force the will by using the will; it's a battle we'll usually lose.
In all honesty @Tosh (hand on heart), if someone told me I could NEVER have another drink I wouldn't particularly care. You may think that isn't true but I am being as honest as I can.
For example, I ran out of beer the other night so last night I swung by the supermarket and got a six pack of light (low alcohol) beer. More than happy to drink that. I like the taste of it and it doesn't get me drunk.
I then had a glass of red wine with my wife over dinner because I enjoy it.
I am sensible enough to avoid situations that I know will trigger heavy drinking.
Ha, after lobster's post I suddenly became aware of the judgemental nature of my post in this thread. I have a very bad history with alcohol not cause of my own use but because of my dad's.
While growing up he seemed dangerously delusional while drunk and was very abusive because of that. I tend to recognize the people who get drunk in this way pretty quickly and to those particular people I stand by my opinion that it is one of the nastiest substances out there.
It seems to warp thought so dramatically that they destroy everything close to them piece by piece. As for myself I seem to be fairly insensitive to it, after the 5th or 8th beer I get giggly and kind of jolly, but I never said or did things I regretted later on and I never had a black-out.
I suspect that for some, especially those who bottle things up inside alcohol can release that stuff all at once which will lead to dangerous/aggressive behaviour. So I guess it comes down to how you react to it, even the amount which is "heavy drinking" seems different from what I observed. The amount I drink to feel slightly light-headed make some of my sensitive friends drunk off their minds. While others can drink 20 and still be coherent...
So yeah it's pretty much a thing to decide for your own, but it's always better to do without IMO
In all honesty @Tosh (hand on heart), if someone told me I could NEVER have another drink I wouldn't particularly care. You may think that isn't true but I am being as honest as I can.
I believe you. Over the years I've met some strange drinkers. One guy I served with - looked like he could've been an alcoholic. He wrecked his marriage through the booze and even collapsed and had a fit after an extremely heavy weekend of non-stop drinking.
He had his heavy goods driving licence taken off him for that because they couldn't work out why he had the fit, but he knew it must've been from the booze.
So he stopped drinking; just like that. He went a bit mental in other ways; turned into a fitness fanatic and became a right miser with his money, and since then he has only drank twice (we're talking nearly 20 years here), and both times he ended up rip-roaring drunk and made an idiot of himself. So he just doesn't drink.
But @Bunks, if drinking has caused you problems, and you say if you were told you could never have another drink that it wouldn't bother you, then why drink at all?
I have something similar with gambling; it has caused me problems in the past too (I can't leave a casino if I have money left); so I just don't gamble. I haven't got a problem with not gambling by not gambling, so I don't even play about with it doing little bets here and there. I don't even play the lottery.
When I'm not gambling I'm not thinking about gambling, but with booze it was different; when I wasn't drinking I was thinking about drinking.
In all honesty @Tosh (hand on heart), if someone told me I could NEVER have another drink I wouldn't particularly care. You may think that isn't true but I am being as honest as I can.
I believe you. Over the years I've met some strange drinkers. One guy I served with - looked like he could've been an alcoholic. He wrecked his marriage through the booze and even collapsed and had a fit after an extremely heavy weekend of non-stop drinking.
He had his heavy goods driving licence taken off him for that because they couldn't work out why he had the fit, but he knew it must've been from the booze.
So he stopped drinking; just like that. He went a bit mental in other ways; turned into a fitness fanatic and became a right miser with his money, and since then he has only drank twice (we're talking nearly 20 years here), and both times he ended up rip-roaring drunk and made an idiot of himself. So he just doesn't drink.
But @Bunks, if drinking has caused you problems, and you say if you were told you could never have another drink that it wouldn't bother you, then why drink at all?
I have something similar with gambling; it has caused me problems in the past too (I can't leave a casino if I have money left); so I just don't gamble. I haven't got a problem with not gambling by not gambling, so I don't even play about with it doing little bets here and there. I don't even play the lottery.
When I'm not gambling I'm not thinking about gambling, but with booze it was different; when I wasn't drinking I was thinking about drinking.
That's a good question. I guess I just enjoy it. And I do it sensibly these days so I don't see why I should stop. Even when I used to drink too much I never really got in too much trouble anyway. I just hugged everyone apparently!
Having said that, I am planning on giving up alcohol for vassa (rains retreat) for three months this year from July to October. I will let you know how I go
You sound like u have an addictive personality mate?
The hard answer to "Is alcohol really harmful" is yes, of course it is. Alcohol is a toxic poison and can easily cause death or cause long term damage to the body and many people are genetically predisposed to become addicted to it. While much of this was not known to our ancestors, they did see how people did bad things while drunk that they regretted later. So our precepts caution against the practice of using alcohol to get drunk - "recreational use". Common sense. The precept doesn't say you can't drink at all, because in those days a fermented drink might be healthier than risking getting typhoid from the local water.
And considering how polluted our water supply is getting in some of the states over here, between fracking and toxic spills from industries that have bought out the local governments, we might soon be back to the point where a can of beer or glass of wine is safer than water out of the ground no matter how long we boil it.
We are not children. We must find our own way in this, as with so many things. Some people can't drink with causing harm. Others can. Social mores that prevailed in an another culture and another age are of limited use to us here and now.
Well Citta, I've never heard of Buddha, or any teacher for that matter drinking alcohol. Prove me wrong and I will donate 1000$ to a charity of your choice
Perhaps not but Christianity encourages the drinking of wine as the blood of Christ.
I am pretty sure I've heard it said by several teachers that we do have to consider the time and culture. It was also recommended by Buddha not to eat garlic and onion but most people don't abide by that because we now know those items have health benefits and don't really make someone lustful. Granted, that was not a precept for lay people, but still a comparison about how sometimes things do change when we learn differently than they knew 2500 years ago. Of course, that doesn't mean one uses it as an excuse to drink. But it is up to each person to be an honest investigator into their reasons and their relationship with drinking (or any other toxic behavior, including tv and movies) and make a well-reasoned decision.
@Woah93 Out of Buddhism, Jesus drank wine. But also, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche drank. The top student of my teacher enjoys a beer now and again, and or teacher is fine with her choice to do so.
I shouldn't say the top student, that really isn't accurate. She was his first student, has been with him for many years, and is one of the teaching assistants.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was known to have the odd drinky. Every teacher in the Nyingmapa Vajrayana tradition drinks alcohol and eats meat during Tsog Pujas. ( with a tiny number of exceptions.) So do many in the Karma Kagyu. I once had a glass of sherry with a group of Buddhists including Christmas Humphries and DT Suzuki in the London Buddhist Society library. Jundo Cohen Roshi likes a glass of sake. Nak'chang Rinpoche and Khandro Dechen love a glass of Italian wine. Particularly Brunello.
Those just a few off the top of your head. I am going to assume that your offer of 1000$ was not genuine. Mine on the 'music' discussion on the other hand was...
I just learned that alcohol is harmful to my LCD TV.
There’s a lot of rubbish that my TV screen can handle without problem. It can let through porn, politics and cheap comedy; but cleaning it with alcohol will destroy it!
If alcohol is THAT harmful to the TV-screen it must be totally devastating to my supersensitive brain cells!
Chögyam Trungpa died due to his many years of being an alcoholic, while his inner circle watched and enabled him and excused his deteriorating condition as "Oh, he's just one of the Crazy Wisdom line of teachers." Toward the end, his teaching became incoherent but nobody felt worthy of telling this man he had to get help. After all, wasn't he supposed to be enlightened? So perhaps you shouldn't use that poor man as an example. Perhaps as an example of how alcohol can destroy even teachers.
i also gave the example of DT Suzuki, Christmas Humphries, Jundo Cohen, and Nak'chang Rinpoche none of whom are or were teetotal. And none have a problem with alcohol. As I said there are people who cannot drink, and people who can. Not to speak of the fact that alcohol forms part of the ritual practices of several Vajrayana schools. So @Woah93..were you serious ?
Depends, again, on the lineage being followed. Some precisely explain not to take anything intoxicating at all,some say no intoxicating beverages, some say only to avoid intoxication. The precepts taken at refuge vow time from my teacher did not include a precept about alcohol at all.
i also gave the example of DT Suzuki, Christmas Humphries, Jundo Cohen, and Nak'chang Rinpoche none of whom are or were teetotal. And none have a problem with alcohol. As I said there are people who cannot drink, and people who can. Not to speak of the fact that alcohol forms part of the ritual practices of several Vajrayana schools. So @Woah93..were you serious ?
It was an obvious hint at the other topic which you described as "music" (why you use quotation marks there eludes me). Other then that it wasn't meant to be taken that seriously so you can lower your defenses already.
For some people Jeffrey. I often have one glass of wine or beer...and then another ten days later. So far I show no signs of dipsomania.. One the other hand I know people who can have the occasional cigarette. I cant. I haven't smoked for 25 years because its either nil or 40 a day.
...The precept doesn't say you can't drink at all...
Why do you say that?
I should have said many Buddhists translate that precept as "Refrain from drinking to the point of heedlessness" or "Refrain from drunkenness" and not an absolute prohibition.
Comments
1. to show everyone how incredibly compassionate and dharmic I am (and humble)
2. it might inadvertently do me some good
3. what harm can it do?
and now back to the reversible damage . . .
Here's a good, short article about why it's Muslim and not Moslem:
http://hnn.us/article/524
that is the question.
Dont drink. It is unskillful action.
~ Buddha
I used to drink, but now just don't bother with it. I wouldn't say that I am tea-total, as I might have the very occasional drink. I don't really like to be mindless and I think even a small amount takes me down that road.
Just for them . . .
WINE, which is strictly forbidden in Islam, was used as a word-symbol by the Sufi's to denote spiritual knowledge, and the WINE-SELLER means the spiritual guide.
http://www.spiritualfoundation.net/sufisymbolism.htm
and now back to the abstainers . . .
And the huge red flag I see with your drinking isn't the blackouts, it's you having one beer or glass of wine most days of the week after a little of telling us about your drinking history. Firstly, it really does surprise me that you can stick at one. If it were me, I'd have one and then really REALLY crave for more. There'd be occasions where I'd drink more than what I planned. Does this happen to you?
And when alcohol becomes a problem, we don't drink it for the taste, we're drinking for the effect (I personally can't see the reason why people drink for the taste; what's the point in that?).
I like the kipper analogy. If we loved kippers, but were allergic to fish, and they messed us up, we'd just stop eating kippers, no matter how much we loved the taste. We wouldn't then be like, 'well, I'll just have a little bit of herring everyday', or 'a large piece of cod at the weekend would be nice'. We'd just stop eating fish.
So why is it you're still playing around with alcohol? And I personally don't rate will power. Buddhism doesn't rate will power either - we use karma (we create causes and conditions) - we don't try and force the will by using the will; it's a battle we'll usually lose.
Just for them . . .
WINE, which is strictly forbidden in Islam, was used as a word-symbol by the Sufi's to denote spiritual knowledge, and the WINE-SELLER means the spiritual guide.
http://www.spiritualfoundation.net/sufisymbolism.htm
and now back to the abstainers . . .
What is the purpose of this post?
Is it an apology? Doesn't really seem like one. Maybe a kind of stingy one.
Is it about Buddhism and alcohol? How?
Was someone looking for information on Sufism?
Is it an advertisement for your web surfing skills?
And now back to watching crap on tv and snuggling with my iPad....
Perhaps you will demonstrate the perfect apology? Perhaps not.
For now I am sorry for the limitations of your perception and my unskillfulness.
. . . and now back to the . . . choices . . .
None of my posts are perfect. All of them have a purpose. All of them have a context. It is precisely about how in a sense we are all befuddled by the intoxicants of our limitations.
However we must always remember the point of Buddhism is to point at someone else and say, 'Dunkard', 'ignoramus', 'Dharmic failure' etc . . . oh sorry . . . that is exactly not the point . . .
[Lobster fails again]
Perhaps you will demonstrate the perfect apology? Perhaps not.
For now I am sorry for the limitations of your perception and my unskillfulness.
. . . and now back to the . . . choices . . .
None of my posts are perfect. All of them have a purpose. All of them have a context. It is precisely about how in a sense we are all befuddled by the intoxicants of our limitations.
However we must always remember the point of Buddhism is to point at someone else and say, 'Dunkard', 'ignoramus', 'Dharmic failure' etc . . . oh sorry . . . that is exactly not the point . . .
[Lobster fails again]
Excellent response!
Easy enough for someone with limited perception, like myself, to understand, and without undue and annoying jocularity.
Well done!
Not so much on the apology.
Sorry, for criticizing your post @Lobster. Sometimes I don't get you and I get thinking that the person you were responding to won't either. It's not my place to be the rescue ranger.
But!
The last time we had this conversation you said that your response was appropriate and skillful.
I don't think the OP to whom you responded ever came back after that exchange, so we will never know.
I find I have to read @lobsters posts about 20 times to establish the underlying reason and content and then have to put it in context and then read it again, and occasionally I get what @lobsters teaching. Sometimes I don't get it all so just put it down to skilfully targeting the person its offered to.
As you can see I'm bored of this post now, it's not transformed me in any way, and like everything else it looks as if it is ageing and coming to a natural death. I'll recite medicine buddha mantra for everyone here with a drink problem and those who don't.
My view is changing rapidly, so is my practice and so is my avatar, it was not permanent and about to die. Now with renewed effort I am going to practice the 8-fold path with renewed effort as the garden I had designed has grown a lot of weeds in it. And the thorn bushes have come back in a greater number than before. Can anyone remind me from memory without looking them up what they are?
Mettha
For the record....@lobster....It's getting harder and harder for me to
understand your posts as well... Maybe it;s my old brain....or limited references
or poor puzzling skills.... I dunno....I'm more than willing to listen if
your willing to be a little more straight forward with me...Your little lobster
heart sure is in the right place, and I want to benefit from it.
May Cod be with you
I personally love lobsters posts. My oldest son, likes crappy food. Why? Because he is always on the go and it's fast and easy to eat. He doesn't like to have to work at chewing his food, so he likes the type where he can take a whole mouthful and have it down in 2-3 chews. Sometimes, I feel like posts where the person is taking an exceptional amount of time to ensure they are understood (like I do) aren't doing anyone any favors. Sometimes you NEED a post to chew on. Just like you need some good food to chew on. It's a good thing. We don't always need to be spoon fed baby food.
@Bunks said he/she had been drinking enough to black out. Now blacking out isn't passing out; blacking out is still walking/talking and is usually followed by passing out. And when we regain consciousness we have no memory of what we'd done, or how we had gotten home. I can infer a lot of things from people who black out, because I did the same. For example I understand the fear and anxiousness on waking up. How did I get home? Did I abuse anyone? Am I in any kind of trouble? Did I make an idiot of myself? I also understand the kinds of stuff we can do when we black out.
An exercise my sponsor set me was to list five crazy/stupid things I'd done, in the rough order that I done them in, that I blamed on my drinking. My list looked something like this:
1. Beat a friend up at the Rhine Army Summer Show (I felt terrible about it).
2. Went AWOL and joined the French Foriegn Legion (25 days in jail for this).
3. On return from Gulf War 1, went AWOL for two days (21 days in jail for this).
4. Fell off the side of a building I'd been climbing while drunk (could've died).
5. Urinated in lots of different places and beds (obviously embarrassing and affects self esteem).
My sponsor discussed each in turn, "Like, oh, so you beat a friend up because you were drunk and then you drank again did you?"
I was like, "Yeh, of course?" And then he'd say, "Oh, so you got drunk and then went AWOL, not once, but twice? And then you drank again?" And I'm like "Er, Yeh...", because I could start to see where the problem was. It wasn't the drinking, it was the thinking preceding my first drink.
He was pointing out the the crazy/insane thing isn't that I do crazy/insane things while I'm drinking, but that given my drinking history, THAT I STILL CONTINUED TO PICK UP THAT FIRST DRINK UP.
However you will meet alcoholics with a massive ego, but that's simply because they have low self esteem and try to hide it with a big personality. The ego here is a result of something and not the cause of their alcoholism.
Those interviewed for the articles I have read about the wet house did seem say they made a choice to not want to get sober and instead live out their lives drinking in a safe environment, and when I said they make that choice, that is more what I meant, I did a bad job explaining that, sorry, lol. I was in a hurry, had company coming over so I didn't finish my thoughts well. This is one of the articles I read:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_16774107
As for the ego thing, I'm not really talking about the psychological ego as in a larger than life arrogant person. Just more so that except our very basic survival needs our other needs seem to come from somewhere else, and I'm not so sure that doing something just to fulfill their need (regardless of what that need is beyond those who need help with basic survival) is a good thing. Obviously all people have needs of some sort. But I think a lot of the time one person perceives something as a need and they expect someone else to meet that need for them, despite the fact that doing so might go against the needs that another person has. I just don't think that expecting people to meet our needs is necessarily a good thing and it causes a lot of problems for people when those needs aren't met, when really they should be able to develop the ability to provide for those needs themselves. Kind of the same idea behind people who get into relationships looking for the other person to complete them, which isn't possible, nor is it possible for them to make the other person happy. But we fall into that trap a lot and I think we do the same thing when it comes to thinking we can, or should, meet the needs of everyone who demands it.
For example, I ran out of beer the other night so last night I swung by the supermarket and got a six pack of light (low alcohol) beer. More than happy to drink that. I like the taste of it and it doesn't get me drunk.
I then had a glass of red wine with my wife over dinner because I enjoy it.
I am sensible enough to avoid situations that I know will trigger heavy drinking.
While growing up he seemed dangerously delusional while drunk and was very abusive because of that. I tend to recognize the people who get drunk in this way pretty quickly and to those particular people I stand by my opinion that it is one of the nastiest substances out there.
It seems to warp thought so dramatically that they destroy everything close to them piece by piece. As for myself I seem to be fairly insensitive to it, after the 5th or 8th beer I get giggly and kind of jolly, but I never said or did things I regretted later on and I never had a black-out.
I suspect that for some, especially those who bottle things up inside alcohol can release that stuff all at once which will lead to dangerous/aggressive behaviour.
So I guess it comes down to how you react to it, even the amount which is "heavy drinking" seems different from what I observed. The amount I drink to feel slightly light-headed make some of my sensitive friends drunk off their minds. While others can drink 20 and still be coherent...
So yeah it's pretty much a thing to decide for your own, but it's always better to do without IMO
He had his heavy goods driving licence taken off him for that because they couldn't work out why he had the fit, but he knew it must've been from the booze.
So he stopped drinking; just like that. He went a bit mental in other ways; turned into a fitness fanatic and became a right miser with his money, and since then he has only drank twice (we're talking nearly 20 years here), and both times he ended up rip-roaring drunk and made an idiot of himself. So he just doesn't drink.
But @Bunks, if drinking has caused you problems, and you say if you were told you could never have another drink that it wouldn't bother you, then why drink at all?
I have something similar with gambling; it has caused me problems in the past too (I can't leave a casino if I have money left); so I just don't gamble. I haven't got a problem with not gambling by not gambling, so I don't even play about with it doing little bets here and there. I don't even play the lottery.
When I'm not gambling I'm not thinking about gambling, but with booze it was different; when I wasn't drinking I was thinking about drinking.
That's a good question. I guess I just enjoy it. And I do it sensibly these days so I don't see why I should stop. Even when I used to drink too much I never really got in too much trouble anyway. I just hugged everyone apparently!
Having said that, I am planning on giving up alcohol for vassa (rains retreat) for three months this year from July to October. I will let you know how I go
You sound like u have an addictive personality mate?
And considering how polluted our water supply is getting in some of the states over here, between fracking and toxic spills from industries that have bought out the local governments, we might soon be back to the point where a can of beer or glass of wine is safer than water out of the ground no matter how long we boil it.
Some people can't drink with causing harm.
Others can.
Social mores that prevailed in an another culture and another age are of limited use to us here and now.
I am pretty sure I've heard it said by several teachers that we do have to consider the time and culture. It was also recommended by Buddha not to eat garlic and onion but most people don't abide by that because we now know those items have health benefits and don't really make someone lustful. Granted, that was not a precept for lay people, but still a comparison about how sometimes things do change when we learn differently than they knew 2500 years ago. Of course, that doesn't mean one uses it as an excuse to drink. But it is up to each person to be an honest investigator into their reasons and their relationship with drinking (or any other toxic behavior, including tv and movies) and make a well-reasoned decision.
I shouldn't say the top student, that really isn't accurate. She was his first student, has been with him for many years, and is one of the teaching assistants.
Every teacher in the Nyingmapa Vajrayana tradition drinks alcohol and eats meat during Tsog Pujas. ( with a tiny number of exceptions.) So do many in the Karma Kagyu.
I once had a glass of sherry with a group of Buddhists including Christmas Humphries and DT Suzuki in the London Buddhist Society library.
Jundo Cohen Roshi likes a glass of sake.
Nak'chang Rinpoche and Khandro Dechen love a glass of Italian wine. Particularly Brunello.
Those just a few off the top of your head.
I am going to assume that your offer of 1000$ was not genuine.
Mine on the 'music' discussion on the other hand was...
There’s a lot of rubbish that my TV screen can handle without problem.
It can let through porn, politics and cheap comedy; but cleaning it with alcohol will destroy it!
If alcohol is THAT harmful to the TV-screen it must be totally devastating to my supersensitive brain cells!
As I said there are people who cannot drink, and people who can.
Not to speak of the fact that alcohol forms part of the ritual practices of several Vajrayana schools.
So @Woah93..were you serious ?
So far I show no signs of dipsomania..
One the other hand I know people who can have the occasional cigarette. I cant. I haven't smoked for 25 years because its either nil or 40 a day.