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Nice one @federica I was looking to put together something like that - no need now
@Hamsaka said Is it .. . "okay" . . . to deliberately seek out and then manifest a wonderful happy feeling that courses through my body like blood and lightens me? My Puritan ancestors are grabbing their pitchforks as I write this
Of course it is - The basic principle is everyone wants to be happy, it's the way we go about achieving it. Acting out of ignorance, generates dukkha.
Happiness and blissful states can be achieved in meditation. When they arise, let them be, and enjoy. However, you have to be mindful (and this happens a lot to me) of what is happening, for instance up might pop a little thought saying what is this, or can I make it better, or I've achieved Nirvana, and then perhaps the chattering starts, or I get caught up in the feeling, and then what was nice starts to fade away and die - destroyed by the attachment to the feeling or thought.
When I have heard people describe what happens in meditation, and how to view thoughts and feelings arising, the best metaphor for me is a lotus flower in the open hand. Visualise holding a delicate scented lotus flower. You can grip it firmly in a tight fist, but that tends to destroy it, and squeezing the juices out may cause the fragrance to change and become pungent or acrid, and what is left is discarded as no longer beautiful or fragrant. However, you can let the lotus flower rest on your open flattened hand, and it goes nowhere. The beauty and fragrance are there for you to enjoy forever, or at least until you decide to let it it go. And just by turning your hand through 180 degrees and letting it drop into a (visualised) offering bowel the flower drops lightly into it, but is not necessarily destroyed, and then the happiness you continue to experience can be dedicated for someone else to enjoy it. Like this...
And so you can go on to enjoy the jhanic states and visions etc, with this view in mind.
Not sure if that helps you, but it helped me, bless you!
Sorry, @anataman, but I never said that! I have no Puritanical ancestors, to begin with... And I've never been self-conscious about happy feelings coursing through my anywhere and whatever...
Is it .. . "okay" . . . to deliberately seek out and then manifest a wonderful happy feeling that courses through my body like blood and lightens me? My Puritan ancestors are grabbing their pitchforks as I write this
The Buddha said the jhanic states was the 'one pleasure' he allowed himself. I'm not there yet, I do love spagetti and a warm late April day.
OK. Yes.
Euphoric jhana states in my experience, are much more subtle, less frenzied, more light than our normal 'frenzied', sensory or circumstantial dependent highs. The best way I can describe it perhaps is Jhana is a 'release into' and other euphoria are a taking or grabbing.
The important thing is to allow them to pass, not to try and invoke them as a preference.
To put it into another context. Today I was agitated, without discernible cause. It is largely a body sensation, could be too much caffeine, lack of water, some food related effect, subconscious worry, difficult to discern the cause. It arises and exercise, time, meditation etc allow its safe passage. In essence it is no different to a euphoric sensation. However guess which we all prefer?
Spaghetti - yum.
later edit: I found the cause, my belt was too tight . . . bit more awareness called for . . .
Correct @dharmamom - it's now been corrected @Hamsaka said it; you posting that picture had me thinking of you and your husband looking happy together as I wrote...
@Hamsaka said:
I read somewhere (a lot of somewheres, actually) that 'if you want to have jhanic bliss, you won't get it'. That is total bullshit, and sad too.
>
I agree, since jhana naturally arises with sufficient concentration / tranquillity.
I've also heard the argument that jhana is just an unecessary distraction because people get attached to the pleasant feelings involved. Attachment is a risk, but IMO this kind of comment is often just propaganda from devotees of the "dry insight" approach, or sometimes sour grapes from people who haven't meditated sufficiently to attain jhana.
@SpinyNorman said:
I've also heard the argument that jhana is just an unecessary distraction because people get attached to the pleasant feelings involved. Attachment is a risk, but IMO this kind of comment is often just propaganda from devotees of the "dry insight" approach, or sometimes sour grapes from people who haven't meditated sufficiently to attain jhana.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not that much into labeling my experiences or my feelings or my thoughts. I guess, yes, jhana could be a potential unnecessary distraction, because as soon as you acknowledge to yourself "yes, that was jhana number three that I have just experienced," the whole goal of your practice gets lost.
You don't practice to get the kick of jhana. You practice to gain insight into your life, hopefully to become a better, more meaningful person.
From that point of view, I do understand that some people consider it a distraction, rather than a goal to attain.
@anataman said:
Yes thank you upekka - and if you have read and understood some other posts, I return to my point of reference (which is to reflectt on and understand the 4NTs) when I am lost or recognise the unskillfulness of my actions) and Right View unfolds naturally out of the 4th NT...), and that is what I have done
if you already have the Noble Right View, good on you
if not
we have to practice 4th NT with our worldly Right View (vidarsana/vipassan/insight meditation) to get the Noble Right View
remember
worldly Right View and Noble Right View are two different things
once one get the Noble Right View only one can practice Fourth Noble Truth
@SpinyNorman said:
I've also heard the argument that jhana is just an unecessary distraction because people get attached to the pleasant feelings involved. Attachment is a risk, but IMO this kind of comment is often just propaganda from devotees of the "dry insight" approach, or sometimes sour grapes from people who haven't meditated sufficiently to attain jhana. Also it is not necessary to use the tool of jhana. Dzogchen/Mahamudra is the highest practice that leads more rapidly to enlightenment.
The way my teacher says it is that jhana can be a tool you use. But if it is pursued as nirvana itself that is wrong view. I don't think anyone disagrees. Also only some and not all of the jhanas can be used to cultivate insight. Don't ask me which ones because I am not sure For the jhanas that are conducive to insight the idea (as in all shamata) is to see subtler consciousness which helps in developing insight.
@federica and @Citta have said pacanpa papanca or something that sounds like it or means the same thing. lol.. it's no wonder you have to have a sense of humour in buddhism, both for your self and everyone else iykwim
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Jeffrey said:
The way my teacher says it is that jhana can be a tool you use. But if it is pursued as nirvana itself that is wrong view. I don't think anyone disagrees. Also only some and not all of the jhanas can be used to cultivate insight. Don't ask me which ones because I am not sure For the jhanas that are conducive to insight the idea (as in all shamata) is to see subtler consciousness which helps in developing insight.
The Gaia House teacher Rob Burbea says that jhana blissful states are sooo conducive to the development of insight. I don't remember exactly, but he is teaching about jhanas to an audience of newcomers to the teaching, so I assume he's talking about the lower rupa jhanas (form jhanas, as opposed to the formless ones like 5 though 8 or 9)
I see the practicality of that right off. I am much more open to insight when the hindrances are either gone or at a very low roar. It's like I can learn better when my tummy is full and my body is happy than if I'm hungry and exhausted.
Using the positive jhana states as tools rather than some indication you've 'arrived' or are enlightened is a wise caveat. Especially this would be important to a newcomer to meditation or if it happens spontaneously to a person who is suffering a lot and yearns egoically to be 'enlightened' (like, say ME a number of years ago).
Jhanic states can and do happen during deep concentration of any sort, whether you are sitting on the cushion or moving your body. I had a strong jhana experience long before I ever meditated seriously. My exH and I had been hiking a long distance in a short time, and the last stretch was down a steep trail that crawled down the side of a basalt cliff. To the right -- blackness (it was night), and the only illumination was my head lamp. The trail was very rocky and narrow, you had to watch every step. My state of apprehension (and exhaustion spiked with aggravation lol) suddenly changed into this pure blissful, super alert frame of mind. I can still see that circle of light picking up bits of the trail and telling me where to put my foot next. Gone was the apprehension and exhaustion. The state lasted the whole way down and I never forgot it, always remembered it as something unusual and special. I had a similar state as a child playing in the rain foresty woods near my grandparent's house.
Not that I can always do it 'well', but to just bring myself to my body and breath awareness, anywhere I am, and in a couple of breaths the very subtle 'bliss' is there. I use it to 'remind me', or ground me. Or at least that is my intention. If I am very tired or emotionally overwrought, being 'reminded' is a true relief of the suffering, and often insight follows (insight into whatever I'm overwrought about).
To stay there, though, all the time? Eeek. It's a bit on the intense side, and it's not that peaceful except in limited batches, at least so far. Also, I know it is only a prelude state to even better states along the way. That it even MATTERS to me now is that it is such a contrast to the constant drudgery of my previous existence.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
I've also heard the argument that jhana is just an unecessary distraction because people get attached to the pleasant feelings involved. Attachment is a risk, but IMO this kind of comment is often just propaganda from devotees of the "dry insight" approach, or sometimes sour grapes from people who haven't meditated sufficiently to attain jhana.
People can get attached, that's the danger of having any pleasurable experience whether it's inherently beneficial or not. I've never heard of 'dry insight' before, hmm. There always seems to be people who want to warn against enjoying things too much, and who seem to say you aren't really doing it right unless you have beads of sweat popping out on your face, etched with strain and effort
Meditative absorption (samādhi) and jhana are attempts to systemise and stratify the yogic heritage of the Buddhas training. The Buddha was an ascetic yogi. He drew on his karmic heritage as a Noble, a wandering seeker and supreme raja yogi.
Isn't that right Mr Cushion? . . . Mr Cushion? Where has he gone now . . .
@Jeffrey said:
Rigdzin Shikpo said to not feel bad because of pleasure in meditation.
In all honesty, I did not give much thought to theme of jhanas when the discussion came up at the centre I attend, because I found the idea of measuring or labelling the blissful states you derive from your meditation too much rationalization. I still find it distracting. It's like trying to grade your progress in your practice. I think your practice shows in your behaviour and daily interactions, not in how often you experience jhanas after meditation.
You feel elated, that's okay, no need to feel guilty about it. And like @anataman said above, just check whether the experience includes "attachment" or "aversion." That's all.
In MHO, you may end up getting lost in your theoretical tree, as I like to call it, and lose sight of the real goal of the practice, which is to evolve as a human being and lead a useful and self-fulfilled life. Sorry if I tend to repeat myself. Nothing bad with feeling good
@Jeffrey said:
Rigdzin Shikpo said to not feel bad because of pleasure in meditation.
Absolutely, and pleasant experiences can be very nourishing for one's practice. If there's no pleasure in meditation then there's likely to be little motivation to continue.
@SpinyNorman, my HO is, and I talk for myself here, if I know where I got, that would imply there's a path I should be supposed to be treading, with milestones to be reached and a visible goal in sight.
I can't see my personal growth in that linear way.
To me, it's a work of a lifetime, with some angst life experiences dragging you back a couple of squares from time to time, now and then.
I can't imagine that at seventy I'll finally decide that that's it, that I'm finally enlightened, or even label myself as "wise."
I still find there's much ego involved in the calculation. That is just my opinion. The practice sometimes puts the theory into perspective but I personally don't find that labelling my blissful states will make much difference in the practice. I prefer to smell the rose than know the word. Just wanted to explain to you my point of view.
@dharmamom said:
SpinyNorman, my HO is, and I talk for myself here, if I know where I got, that would imply there's a path I should be supposed to be treading, with milestones to be reached and a visible goal in sight.
I can't see my personal growth in that linear way.
Well in Buddhism there is a path and a goal, but I agree it's not necessarily a linear process. Personally I don't see a problem with milestones, and IMO we need some way of checking if we're heading in the right direction and not wasting our time by practising incorrectly ( it does happen, particularly with people who've never had proper instruction in meditation ).
So for some styles of meditation jhana is a good indication that one is practising correctly and effectively. Some meditation styles and traditions don't refer to jhana, but there will still be ways of judging if one is practising correctly.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
The Pali canon is chalk full of sign posts along the way, as stated by the Buddha himself. It's not 'wrong view' to have a map or directions or a sign post. But there is not any kind of 'don't be linear' or 'do be very methodical and follow the map exactly' in the canon or following suttas either.
Even though signs of "progress" are only relative in their truth, as long as that is understood, they can be useful. I am pretty by-the-seat-of-my-pants in a general way BUT only after I have a baseline grasp of the map itself.
I have been an RN for 23 years this coming May, and one could say I know the 'map' of being an RN inside out and backwards. In general, I am not given new nurses to orient or teach, though, because after I grasp the general idea I don't follow a map at all And nursing is a very map-py kind of place. Newbies need maps in nursing like they need air. I've 'forgotten' the map at this point, or the relevant stuff necessary for the new RNs anyway
So my practice is somewhat the same. Once I grasp (and all my grasps are understood to be relative, or so I remind myself again and again) I am seat-of-the-pants.
Watch out what you feel averse to, aversion being an important thing to note. Sometimes I am averse to maps or step-by-step, and when that is the case, I have to examine my aversion, however lightly aversive it is.
Hell, I want to be awake, and I know for a fact my own opinions and preferences are on a continuum of ball and chain to ignorance in action.
I need to remind myself to just encounter what is there without selfing an opinion about it. Talk about a constant, ongoing way!
@SpinyNorman said:
Really? The jhanas are frequently mentioned in the suttas, and Right Concentration is defined in terms of jhana....so maybe they are important.
Jhana is all about the state of mind awakening. Immensely, if you were in a state of profound stillness and concentration, then you are experiencing the jhana right here, right now.
@Jeffrey said:
The way my teacher says it is that jhana can be a tool you use. But if it is pursued as nirvana itself that is wrong view. I don't think anyone disagrees. Also only some and not all of the jhanas can be used to cultivate insight. Don't ask me which ones because I am not sure For the jhanas that are conducive to insight the idea (as in all shamata) is to see subtler consciousness which helps in developing insight.
I've read that only the first 7 jhanas can be used for insight but 8th jhana doesn't work with insight
By the time you get to the 8th you don't know that you don't know and have forgotten why you were there in the first place, which is really good for you as you can then start all over again!
Alexandra David-Neel said that Jhanas in Buddhism are regarded as accesories, practices which may be useful but which are in no way indispensable for salvation. Interestingly, she thought that salvation was of an intellectual order and depended on the acquisition of knowledge, instead.
The interesting thing about @hows response to @Cittas teacher's response is how no one can be accommodated by it. But thats buddhism for you. have you seen the new es g class Mercedes they are trying to peddle in the UK - well, it looks like it can only be driven in a desert; but maybe the Germans are more forward thinking than we are!
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Citta said:
My teacher says that the jhanas come under the category of luxury items that make us feel special, but that are not necessary.
It is a major study all of it's own to amass and study all the different teachers' guidance regarding jhanas.
Ayya Khemma (on page one in audio) said she believes many monastics disrobe eventually because they do not cultivate jhanic states into their daily practice. She said (in so many words) the monastic life is without nearly all creature comforts, sensory pleasures however small, and is even on a sensory level quite UNpleasant. Cultivating jhanic states counterbalance the relative bleakness of the monastic life.
Ayya Khemma (on page one in audio) said she believes many monastics disrobe eventually because they do not cultivate jhanic states into their daily practice. She said (in so many words) the monastic life is without nearly all creature comforts, sensory pleasures however small, and is even on a sensory level quite UNpleasant. Cultivating jhanic states counterbalance the relative bleakness of the monastic life.
Somewhere in a sincere Buddhist renunciates meditative practice will come a time of aridity which can often last months or years to transit. The point of ones practice is to face it directly as one would do in any meditation rather than find ways of assuaging its potential intensity.
It should come as no surprise that the farther one goes in a meditation practice, the greater the potential hurdles there are to pass. Transcending a threatened ego's mimicry of your innate fears is just one of them.
Offering jhanic practice development as a way of addressing that meditative trial simply says that someone sees the continued wearing of robes more valuable than the practice itself. This sounds like a harsh interpretation of someone's teaching who I do not know but it remains a fairly common view among monastic's.
A more pertinent way of preparing the practitioner for sensory identity loss is by having a qualified teacher properly teach them how to surrender all that is subject to it rather than dodging the lesson it offers just to maintain ones vocation.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
The most obvious benefit of jhana is the ease of insight (thus building of wisdom) the state promotes (seems like I've heard or read this from the writings/audio of many insight teachers from a variety of schools). A first grader learns better in her classroom with a full stomach, having come from a stable and loving home. The alternative doesn't set up the conditions for a child to efficiently learn, obviously! I interpret the same logic of conditions as supporting cultivating jhanic states.
Efficient learning can also occur under great stress too. But I do understand you @how are talking about pulling back further and examining the aridity (for instance) in contrast to assuaging the aridity or boredom or bleakness . . . these are valuable to the meditator to work through for their own sakes.
For the sake of human error, if increasing the joyful experience keeps a monastic from disrobing during a 'dark night of the soul', and regretting it later (or losing the whole opportunity altogether), cultivating jhana seems worth it. Surely there will be states of being and mind BEYOND simply keeping the robes, the environment of the monastic practically forces continuous progress.
I am all for taking the human frailties into consideration and exploiting them, if need be for the sake of progress. I have a feeling, between you and I, we are talking about the same thing essentially though. Arduous effort, to me, is an inspiring idea, where to others it's too intimidating, and in order to teach, it's a matter of getting the idea through a labyrinth of as yet unchecked assumptions/perceptions.
@federica said:
(There's no apostrophe in yours. Ever.)
thanks so much showing me my mistake,
english is my second language and i do not use capitals for pronouns except to express Buddhist terms or Buddha, and never want to put full stop because i am still in this samsara (neither beginning nor ending so far)
by the way,
how about if i put apostrophe in yours (your's) from today
are there anyone who against it?
he he he
sorry dear, just kidding
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
You speak better English than some English people I would say.
And if I were to attempt to communicate in your language, you could never correct me for all your laughing.
An apostrophe is either used to show a possessive term (That book belongs to John. It is John's book.) or it is used to denote abbreviations or absence and replacement of letters. (cannot becomes can't, do not becomes don't and trickily, shall not becomes sha'n't........)
@wangchuey said:
I'm guessing that jhanas are a "glimpse" of enlightenment, from the descriptions that I have read, but can also lead to enlightenment.
The experience of jhana certainly demonstrates that refined states of consciousness are possible.
The experience of jhana certainly demonstrates that refined states of consciousness are possible.
Indeed. Nothing wrong with a little refined thinking. Do we want coffee to wake up? Ganga euphoria or jhana focus? Do we want a serotonin high from running or sitting masochistically?
None of the above?
Meditation is a state of mind. Go far enough and the state of our mind is not in a 'state'. Meanwhile the cushion states his usual lies . . . :
Comments
Nice one @federica I was looking to put together something like that - no need now
Of course it is - The basic principle is everyone wants to be happy, it's the way we go about achieving it. Acting out of ignorance, generates dukkha.
Happiness and blissful states can be achieved in meditation. When they arise, let them be, and enjoy. However, you have to be mindful (and this happens a lot to me) of what is happening, for instance up might pop a little thought saying what is this, or can I make it better, or I've achieved Nirvana, and then perhaps the chattering starts, or I get caught up in the feeling, and then what was nice starts to fade away and die - destroyed by the attachment to the feeling or thought.
When I have heard people describe what happens in meditation, and how to view thoughts and feelings arising, the best metaphor for me is a lotus flower in the open hand. Visualise holding a delicate scented lotus flower. You can grip it firmly in a tight fist, but that tends to destroy it, and squeezing the juices out may cause the fragrance to change and become pungent or acrid, and what is left is discarded as no longer beautiful or fragrant. However, you can let the lotus flower rest on your open flattened hand, and it goes nowhere. The beauty and fragrance are there for you to enjoy forever, or at least until you decide to let it it go. And just by turning your hand through 180 degrees and letting it drop into a (visualised) offering bowel the flower drops lightly into it, but is not necessarily destroyed, and then the happiness you continue to experience can be dedicated for someone else to enjoy it. Like this...
And so you can go on to enjoy the jhanic states and visions etc, with this view in mind.
Not sure if that helps you, but it helped me, bless you!
Metta
Sorry, @anataman, but I never said that! I have no Puritanical ancestors, to begin with... And I've never been self-conscious about happy feelings coursing through my anywhere and whatever...
OK. Yes.
Euphoric jhana states in my experience, are much more subtle, less frenzied, more light than our normal 'frenzied', sensory or circumstantial dependent highs. The best way I can describe it perhaps is Jhana is a 'release into' and other euphoria are a taking or grabbing.
The important thing is to allow them to pass, not to try and invoke them as a preference.
To put it into another context. Today I was agitated, without discernible cause. It is largely a body sensation, could be too much caffeine, lack of water, some food related effect, subconscious worry, difficult to discern the cause. It arises and exercise, time, meditation etc allow its safe passage. In essence it is no different to a euphoric sensation. However guess which we all prefer?
Spaghetti - yum.
later edit: I found the cause, my belt was too tight . . . bit more awareness called for . . .
Correct @dharmamom - it's now been corrected @Hamsaka said it; you posting that picture had me thinking of you and your husband looking happy together as I wrote...
>
I agree, since jhana naturally arises with sufficient concentration / tranquillity.
I've also heard the argument that jhana is just an unecessary distraction because people get attached to the pleasant feelings involved. Attachment is a risk, but IMO this kind of comment is often just propaganda from devotees of the "dry insight" approach, or sometimes sour grapes from people who haven't meditated sufficiently to attain jhana.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not that much into labeling my experiences or my feelings or my thoughts. I guess, yes, jhana could be a potential unnecessary distraction, because as soon as you acknowledge to yourself "yes, that was jhana number three that I have just experienced," the whole goal of your practice gets lost.
You don't practice to get the kick of jhana. You practice to gain insight into your life, hopefully to become a better, more meaningful person.
From that point of view, I do understand that some people consider it a distraction, rather than a goal to attain.
Same here. I don't understand them and chances are good that I'm not into them yet, so there's no need to worry or be concerned about it.
There's no attainment and no non-attainment (Heart Sutra).
It's been my experience that the simplest approach is oftentimes the best.
if you already have the Noble Right View, good on you
if not
we have to practice 4th NT with our worldly Right View (vidarsana/vipassan/insight meditation) to get the Noble Right View
remember
worldly Right View and Noble Right View are two different things
once one get the Noble Right View only one can practice Fourth Noble Truth
sanna-vedaytha nirodha is the 9th one _(no perception, no feeling)
a skillful one can stay in this jhana states for 7 days
before he enters into 9th jhana he makes a mental note that he would emerge from 9th jhana after 7 days
it says 'anagamin - non returners and Arahants' only can enter into 9th jhana
so
at the moment 'it' is not applicable to us, i suppose
The way my teacher says it is that jhana can be a tool you use. But if it is pursued as nirvana itself that is wrong view. I don't think anyone disagrees. Also only some and not all of the jhanas can be used to cultivate insight. Don't ask me which ones because I am not sure
For the jhanas that are conducive to insight the idea (as in all shamata) is to see subtler consciousness which helps in developing insight.
No as @Chaz said - 'simplicity'
@federica and @Citta have said pacanpa papanca or something that sounds like it or means the same thing. lol.. it's no wonder you have to have a sense of humour in buddhism, both for your self and everyone else iykwim
The Gaia House teacher Rob Burbea says that jhana blissful states are sooo conducive to the development of insight. I don't remember exactly, but he is teaching about jhanas to an audience of newcomers to the teaching, so I assume he's talking about the lower rupa jhanas (form jhanas, as opposed to the formless ones like 5 though 8 or 9)
I see the practicality of that right off. I am much more open to insight when the hindrances are either gone or at a very low roar. It's like I can learn better when my tummy is full and my body is happy than if I'm hungry and exhausted.
Using the positive jhana states as tools rather than some indication you've 'arrived' or are enlightened is a wise caveat. Especially this would be important to a newcomer to meditation or if it happens spontaneously to a person who is suffering a lot and yearns egoically to be 'enlightened' (like, say ME a number of years ago).
Jhanic states can and do happen during deep concentration of any sort, whether you are sitting on the cushion or moving your body. I had a strong jhana experience long before I ever meditated seriously. My exH and I had been hiking a long distance in a short time, and the last stretch was down a steep trail that crawled down the side of a basalt cliff. To the right -- blackness (it was night), and the only illumination was my head lamp. The trail was very rocky and narrow, you had to watch every step. My state of apprehension (and exhaustion spiked with aggravation lol) suddenly changed into this pure blissful, super alert frame of mind. I can still see that circle of light picking up bits of the trail and telling me where to put my foot next. Gone was the apprehension and exhaustion. The state lasted the whole way down and I never forgot it, always remembered it as something unusual and special. I had a similar state as a child playing in the rain foresty woods near my grandparent's house.
Not that I can always do it 'well', but to just bring myself to my body and breath awareness, anywhere I am, and in a couple of breaths the very subtle 'bliss' is there. I use it to 'remind me', or ground me. Or at least that is my intention. If I am very tired or emotionally overwrought, being 'reminded' is a true relief of the suffering, and often insight follows (insight into whatever I'm overwrought about).
To stay there, though, all the time? Eeek. It's a bit on the intense side, and it's not that peaceful except in limited batches, at least so far. Also, I know it is only a prelude state to even better states along the way. That it even MATTERS to me now is that it is such a contrast to the constant drudgery of my previous existence.
People can get attached, that's the danger of having any pleasurable experience whether it's inherently beneficial or not. I've never heard of 'dry insight' before, hmm. There always seems to be people who want to warn against enjoying things too much, and who seem to say you aren't really doing it right unless you have beads of sweat popping out on your face, etched with strain and effort
Rigdzin Shikpo said to not feel bad because of pleasure in meditation.
Then enjoy the experience mindful of whether you are viewing it with 'attachment' or aversion'
Indeed. Can be.
However sport samadhi is nothing to get attached to
http://www.netplaces.com/buddhism/buddha-in-daily-life/mindfulness-in-sport-and-exercise.htm
Meditative absorption (samādhi) and jhana are attempts to systemise and stratify the yogic heritage of the Buddhas training. The Buddha was an ascetic yogi. He drew on his karmic heritage as a Noble, a wandering seeker and supreme raja yogi.
Isn't that right Mr Cushion? . . . Mr Cushion? Where has he gone now . . .
Cushion surfing . . . whatever next . . .
In all honesty, I did not give much thought to theme of jhanas when the discussion came up at the centre I attend, because I found the idea of measuring or labelling the blissful states you derive from your meditation too much rationalization. I still find it distracting. It's like trying to grade your progress in your practice. I think your practice shows in your behaviour and daily interactions, not in how often you experience jhanas after meditation.
You feel elated, that's okay, no need to feel guilty about it. And like @anataman said above, just check whether the experience includes "attachment" or "aversion." That's all.
In MHO, you may end up getting lost in your theoretical tree, as I like to call it, and lose sight of the real goal of the practice, which is to evolve as a human being and lead a useful and self-fulfilled life. Sorry if I tend to repeat myself. Nothing bad with feeling good
Absolutely, and pleasant experiences can be very nourishing for one's practice. If there's no pleasure in meditation then there's likely to be little motivation to continue.
"as soon as you acknowledge to yourself "yes, that was jhana number three that I have just experienced," the whole goal of your practice gets lost"
Not necessarily - it might just be recognising where one has got to.
@SpinyNorman, my HO is, and I talk for myself here, if I know where I got, that would imply there's a path I should be supposed to be treading, with milestones to be reached and a visible goal in sight.
I can't see my personal growth in that linear way.
To me, it's a work of a lifetime, with some angst life experiences dragging you back a couple of squares from time to time, now and then.
I can't imagine that at seventy I'll finally decide that that's it, that I'm finally enlightened, or even label myself as "wise."
I still find there's much ego involved in the calculation. That is just my opinion. The practice sometimes puts the theory into perspective but I personally don't find that labelling my blissful states will make much difference in the practice. I prefer to smell the rose than know the word. Just wanted to explain to you my point of view.
it's no wonder you have to have a sense of humour in buddhism, both for your self and everyone else
do i have to answer/write something for this?
no upekka
Let it Go
He said, :rolleyes: writing something for it....
Well in Buddhism there is a path and a goal, but I agree it's not necessarily a linear process. Personally I don't see a problem with milestones, and IMO we need some way of checking if we're heading in the right direction and not wasting our time by practising incorrectly ( it does happen, particularly with people who've never had proper instruction in meditation ).
So for some styles of meditation jhana is a good indication that one is practising correctly and effectively. Some meditation styles and traditions don't refer to jhana, but there will still be ways of judging if one is practising correctly.
The Pali canon is chalk full of sign posts along the way, as stated by the Buddha himself. It's not 'wrong view' to have a map or directions or a sign post. But there is not any kind of 'don't be linear' or 'do be very methodical and follow the map exactly' in the canon or following suttas either.
Even though signs of "progress" are only relative in their truth, as long as that is understood, they can be useful. I am pretty by-the-seat-of-my-pants in a general way BUT only after I have a baseline grasp of the map itself.
I have been an RN for 23 years this coming May, and one could say I know the 'map' of being an RN inside out and backwards. In general, I am not given new nurses to orient or teach, though, because after I grasp the general idea I don't follow a map at all
And nursing is a very map-py kind of place. Newbies need maps in nursing like they need air. I've 'forgotten' the map at this point, or the relevant stuff necessary for the new RNs anyway 
So my practice is somewhat the same. Once I grasp (and all my grasps are understood to be relative, or so I remind myself again and again) I am seat-of-the-pants.
Watch out what you feel averse to, aversion being an important thing to note. Sometimes I am averse to maps or step-by-step, and when that is the case, I have to examine my aversion, however lightly aversive it is.
Hell, I want to be awake, and I know for a fact my own opinions and preferences are on a continuum of ball and chain to ignorance in action.
I need to remind myself to just encounter what is there without selfing an opinion about it. Talk about a constant, ongoing way!
Thank you, jll.
Maybe. I just don't understand jhanas.
Jhana is all about the state of mind awakening. Immensely, if you were in a state of profound stillness and concentration, then you are experiencing the jhana right here, right now.
I've read that only the first 7 jhanas can be used for insight but 8th jhana doesn't work with insight
By the time you get to the 8th you don't know that you don't know and have forgotten why you were there in the first place, which is really good for you as you can then start all over again!
My teacher says that the jhanas come under the category of luxury items that make us feel special, but that are not necessary.
The interesting thing about Citta' teachers response, is how many diverse opinions can be accommodated by it.
Like a new Maserati as opposed to that nearly -new Ford Focus.
Good. I can't reach the pedals anyway....
Alexandra David-Neel said that Jhanas in Buddhism are regarded as accesories, practices which may be useful but which are in no way indispensable for salvation. Interestingly, she thought that salvation was of an intellectual order and depended on the acquisition of knowledge, instead.
The interesting thing about @hows response to @Cittas teacher's response is how no one can be accommodated by it. But thats buddhism for you. have you seen the new es g class Mercedes they are trying to peddle in the UK - well, it looks like it can only be driven in a desert; but maybe the Germans are more forward thinking than we are!
It is a major study all of it's own to amass and study all the different teachers' guidance regarding jhanas.
Ayya Khemma (on page one in audio) said she believes many monastics disrobe eventually because they do not cultivate jhanic states into their daily practice. She said (in so many words) the monastic life is without nearly all creature comforts, sensory pleasures however small, and is even on a sensory level quite UNpleasant. Cultivating jhanic states counterbalance the relative bleakness of the monastic life.
Dhyana, Jhana, Chan, Zen, Meditation... It's all the same stuff, that means the same thing no matter how you put it into words... ... :om: ...
@Hamsaka
Somewhere in a sincere Buddhist renunciates meditative practice will come a time of aridity which can often last months or years to transit. The point of ones practice is to face it directly as one would do in any meditation rather than find ways of assuaging its potential intensity.
It should come as no surprise that the farther one goes in a meditation practice, the greater the potential hurdles there are to pass. Transcending a threatened ego's mimicry of your innate fears is just one of them.
Offering jhanic practice development as a way of addressing that meditative trial simply says that someone sees the continued wearing of robes more valuable than the practice itself. This sounds like a harsh interpretation of someone's teaching who I do not know but it remains a fairly common view among monastic's.
A more pertinent way of preparing the practitioner for sensory identity loss is by having a qualified teacher properly teach them how to surrender all that is subject to it rather than dodging the lesson it offers just to maintain ones vocation.
The most obvious benefit of jhana is the ease of insight (thus building of wisdom) the state promotes (seems like I've heard or read this from the writings/audio of many insight teachers from a variety of schools). A first grader learns better in her classroom with a full stomach, having come from a stable and loving home. The alternative doesn't set up the conditions for a child to efficiently learn, obviously! I interpret the same logic of conditions as supporting cultivating jhanic states.
Efficient learning can also occur under great stress too. But I do understand you @how are talking about pulling back further and examining the aridity (for instance) in contrast to assuaging the aridity or boredom or bleakness . . . these are valuable to the meditator to work through for their own sakes.
For the sake of human error, if increasing the joyful experience keeps a monastic from disrobing during a 'dark night of the soul', and regretting it later (or losing the whole opportunity altogether), cultivating jhana seems worth it. Surely there will be states of being and mind BEYOND simply keeping the robes, the environment of the monastic practically forces continuous progress.
I am all for taking the human frailties into consideration and exploiting them, if need be
for the sake of progress. I have a feeling, between you and I, we are talking about the same thing essentially though. Arduous effort, to me, is an inspiring idea, where to others it's too intimidating, and in order to teach, it's a matter of getting the idea through a labyrinth of as yet unchecked assumptions/perceptions.
don't say that
once you get into the bus, you might not know the names of the passing towns, but still you are on the way to your destination
without knowing the names you are passing the towns
that happens to most of us including (i/me/mine/you/your/your's)
(There's no apostrophe in yours. Ever.)
thanks so much showing me my mistake,
english is my second language and i do not use capitals for pronouns except to express Buddhist terms or Buddha, and never want to put full stop because i am still in this samsara (neither beginning nor ending so far)
by the way,
how about if i put apostrophe in yours (your's) from today
are there anyone who against it?
he he he
sorry dear, just kidding
You speak better English than some English people I would say.
And if I were to attempt to communicate in your language, you could never correct me for all your laughing.
An apostrophe is either used to show a possessive term (That book belongs to John. It is John's book.) or it is used to denote abbreviations or absence and replacement of letters. (cannot becomes can't, do not becomes don't and trickily, shall not becomes sha'n't........)
I'm guessing that jhanas are a "glimpse" of enlightenment, from the descriptions that I have read, but can also lead to enlightenment.
The experience of jhana certainly demonstrates that refined states of consciousness are possible.
Indeed. Nothing wrong with a little refined thinking. Do we want coffee to wake up? Ganga euphoria or jhana focus? Do we want a serotonin high from running or sitting masochistically?
None of the above?
Meditation is a state of mind. Go far enough and the state of our mind is not in a 'state'. Meanwhile the cushion states his usual lies . . . :