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First jhana

EarthninjaEarthninja WandererWest Australia Veteran

Hey guys! I don't have anybody to ask so I'm putting this out to you guys.

Has anybody had experience with the jhanas?
Today I had a weird experience, I'm incredibly dubious and fairly certain it's not a jhana because I've only doing Vipassana for 2 months.

Ok so I was meditating being mindfull of breathing. After about 30minutes my breath was very light. I still had thoughts popping up every maybe 4 breaths. Not sure but still frequent enough to know I'm not that experienced yet!
I noticed my lips were slightly pursed which was weird, I noted the lips to see if there was tension through concentration. As this happens a smile emerged and then a stupid grin. My heart started racing but I tried to return to breath. The grin remained and I could tell it wasn't me doing it. I did feel very lofty and happy. So much I almost teared up a little. It felt a little forced, as in my body was doing this. It came and went for about 5 minutes.
This next experience is something I've had before and possible unrelated, during this I also felt like I was sitting sideways, as in my head was parralell to the floor. Almost like I was on the wall...

I truly believe this is more likely a random experience or just placebo due to me reading about the jhanas. Maybe something subconcious?

Id like to hear your thoughts on this? More so from people who've actually experienced the jhanas. :)

Thanks guys! I hope this an appropriate question :)

«1

Comments

  • CittaCitta Veteran Veteran

    Find a teacher of Buddhist meditation @Earthninja. They don't need to be n Enlightened master. They just need to know more than you.

    On line advice can never equal even a few minutes head to head with an experienced teacher.

    EarthninjaChazJeffrey
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Thanks @Citta‌ I'm doing a Vipassana retreat in July, 10days. I'm hoping to have a chance to speak with somebody. I may even go check out the local yoga studio!
    I teacher would help yes :)

    sova
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    Don't get attached to the label, don't get attached to the blissful state.
    Keep showing up on the cushion and being mindful of your life as it evolves.

    EarthninjaJeffrey
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @dharmamom‌ that's exactly how I feel, I'm merely curious. Mainly due to concentration being an important part of right understanding. Or so I've read!

    I am not meditating for any specific reason, I understand the more I try do anything the more I'm biting my own tail.

    Maybe your right, I shouldn't ask benign questions and just go see for myself! Thank you

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Any question is a good question.

    Sadly, in this specific circumstance, there are no "good" answers.
    It's something to log, record, remember or tap into your 'notes' file and go back to, when you have time, and with the person who could perhaps best help you...

    Every time is different; you know that.
    Just go with the flow.
    "That was interesting....ok, moving on...."

    EarthninjaShoshin
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @Citta said:
    Find a teacher of Buddhist meditation Earthninja. They don't need to be n Enlightened master. They just need to know more than you.

    On line advice can never equal even a few minutes head to head with an experienced teacher.

    @Earthninja - Citta's is probably the best advice you can get.

    Your upcoming retreat should be an excellent experience.

    Focus on getting ready for that. Meditation retreats involve a lot - hours and hours - of practice time. It will be exhausting and physically demanding. Gear your practice towards spending more time on the cushion so your body is prepared. See if you can't work yourself up to sit for 60 minutes. Take one or two days, like on a weekend, where you have a 3-hour session. Sit for 30-40 minutes, get up and stretch or do walking meditation for 10 minutes, then return to yout cushion. Even still, you'll end up getting sore within days. Lower back, hips and knees often take the worst beating. Don't be afraid to use a chair part-time if it's allowed.

    Good luck.

    Oh, and don't sweat the jhanas.

    EarthninjaBuddhadragonanataman
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @Earthninja: your question is good.
    What I meant is that meditation is a means to an end. The practice of meditation will eventually help ground you more firmly in the present moment and think more clearly.
    If you get stuck with the labels and the blissful experience, to me at least, it's like saying you know Paris because you learnt the guidebook by heart.
    That retreat will be a fantastic experience, I'm sure! Keep it up!

    Jeffrey
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Perfect answers guys, thank you.

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran

    @Earthninja said:
    Hey guys! I don't have anybody to ask so I'm putting this out to you guys.

    Has anybody had experience with the jhanas?
    Today I had a weird experience, I'm incredibly dubious and fairly certain it's not a jhana because I've only doing Vipassana for 2 months.

    Ok so I was meditating being mindfull of breathing. After about 30minutes my breath was very light. I still had thoughts popping up every maybe 4 breaths. Not sure but still frequent enough to know I'm not that experienced yet!
    I noticed my lips were slightly pursed which was weird, I noted the lips to see if there was tension through concentration. As this happens a smile emerged and then a stupid grin. My heart started racing but I tried to return to breath. The grin remained and I could tell it wasn't me doing it. I did feel very lofty and happy. So much I almost teared up a little. It felt a little forced, as in my body was doing this. It came and went for about 5 minutes.
    This next experience is something I've had before and possible unrelated, during this I also felt like I was sitting sideways, as in my head was parralell to the floor. Almost like I was on the wall...

    I truly believe this is more likely a random experience or just placebo due to me reading about the jhanas. Maybe something subconcious?

    Id like to hear your thoughts on this? More so from people who've actually experienced the jhanas. :)

    Thanks guys! I hope this an appropriate question :)

    I've had similar experiences, and as I don't have a meditation teacher who is versed in jhanic states, I now just chalk it up to an interesting experience to avoid any unskillful "striving." Only an experienced teacher in Theravada-style meditation would be able to give you a decent answer.

    Earthninja
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    Alexandra David-Néel, my spiritual mentor and idol, wrote about the Jhânas:
    "There is nothing specifically Buddhistic about them, and they have been partially borrowed from the School of Yoga. It should be noted that in Buddhism they are regarded as accessories, practices which may be useful but which are in no way indispensable for salvation, which is of the intellectual order, and depends on the acquisition of knowledge. They cannot, in any case, replace the practice of Attention."
    The book was written back in 1938 and we would replace the word 'attention' with the word 'mindfulness,' nowadays.
    She might not be the authority on the subject, but was a fervent and accomplished Buddhist, and studied many years in Tibet.
    A quaint point of view on the subject.

    CittaEarthninjaJeffreyInvincible_summer
  • CittaCitta Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    And is exactly what many Vajrayana teachers would, and do, say on the subject of jhanas.

    We do not need blisses and special states. We need to wake up in this state.

    Which is useful...because we are already here.

    And there I go..falling into the trap I warn others about and critiquing the Theravada by the Vajrayana...doh.

    anataman
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
    edited May 2014

    I don't perceive it as a critic. You're expressing different points of view each school has about the Jhânas.
    Strangely enough, though Alexandra David-Néel lived many years in Tibet, Christmas Humphreys has described her book "Buddhism: its doctrine and its methods" as leaning to Theravada.

  • ZeroZero Veteran Veteran

    @Earthninja said:
    Id like to hear your thoughts on this?

    Sounds like the precursor concentration that may lead to a jhana.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    ^^^ agree with zero

    it does not sound like anything more

    engage cushion, carry on, if grin continues into laugh (which has happened to me) engage cushion, carry on . . . :wave: .

    BuddhadragonEarthninja
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited May 2014

    I read through all the responses and get the sense that most responses avoided directly addressing the OP's question. I own this impression, fwiw. It's very similar, in tone, to responses given to this same question on other boards.

    If I am perceiving something that is actually happening, it is sure interesting and predictable. I wonder why this is?

  • CittaCitta Veteran Veteran

    Just a guess @Hamsaka, for a start the school I belong to does not go the Jhanic route..but I think there is a well founded concern that verbal descriptions could be misleading.

    HamsakaEarthninja
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @Hamsaka said:
    I read through all the responses and get the sense that most responses avoided directly addressing the OP's question.

    I think there's a reason for that. Noone here has any direct experience with jhanas, so they can't really speak to that concern in the OP.

    Citta's response is probably best. The advice to get a meditation teacher to work with will ensure two things. One is that the student will have the best possible instruction to reach that state. Second, the teacher is usually the one who bears witness to the student's attainment.

    Hamsaka
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Thank you both!

    Jhana is a subject that attracts a lot of proliferation (opinions, anecdotes, and mild 'warnings'), which I discovered when the issue of jhana came up for me.

    There are communities within communities in the Buddhist west, and one that comes to mind regarding the development of jhana and vipassana is Daniel Ingram et al, "Hard Core Dharma" being the title of Ingram's book. This group is very secular, and in my way of seeing, they pluck out jhana and emphasize them (as well as the development of vipassana and samatha) to a huge degree. A huge degree in comparison to the emphasis placed on jhana development in other Buddhist traditions/communities. The latter Ingram et al bunch are on the edge pushing the boundaries far past the comfort zones of many Buddhist practitioners, who might barely consider their 'hard core dharma' as being a Buddhist tradition at all. They remind me of computer programmers cracking 'code' and are frequently featured on the Buddhist Geeks website, what a shock :D Needless to say, they pay little mind to the religious or sacred aspects of the Dharma and claim attainments such as 'enlightenment' and/or arhantship much to other Buddhist group's dismay.

    As long as you know I am not an experienced meditator, I'll say that I highly value this theme of jhana development because in a nutshell, jhana development . . . just makes sense. If you are interested @Earthninja, the internet has more information on your query than is good for you :D but I recommend you doing your research. Perhaps because a pre-jhanic state has occurred for you, it is a path of least resistance particularly apt for you? Definitely find a teacher or a trusted somebody who knows a lot more than you if you choose to go deeper. I have not done this myself, and have not pursued a deeper experience of jhana because the 'warnings' seem wise.

    Earthninjalobster
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Thanks heaps guys, from what I've re read in my books and on the internet it was not a jhana. I light breath is the development in access concentration but certainly not jhana!

    Good! Because smiling out of your control is a little weird!

    The words described for jhana, is rapture, sweetness, bubbles, ecstasy, lightning through the body, waves moving through the body.

    Also it is apparent there should be a nimitta present.

    My main purpose for doing this is I've read that you need atleast the first toe jhanas for enlightenment to occur, reason being is something to do with the concentration needed as well as you have to let go of a self to enter jhana.

    But yes always just see what is! I'm happy there is no right way to so anything, it is a journey. A journey to here!

    lobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @Chaz said: I think there's a reason for that. Noone here has any direct experience with jhanas, so they can't really speak to that concern in the OP.

    >

    Citta's response is probably best. The advice to get a meditation teacher to work with will ensure two things. One is that the student will have the best possible instruction to reach that state. Second, the teacher is usually the one who bears witness to the student's attainment.

    @Chaz

    Perhaps anyone here who is experienced in the jhanas does not assume that those experiences qualify them to play the role of a jhanic teacher on the internet, especially when such jhanic teachings usually require intuitive face to face exchanges between beings, or at least between a teacher & disciple who know each other well, instead of attempting such advise with the typed words of an unknown being's experience.

    (I tried four times to reference this post to chaz's post above to no avail...sigh!)

    (Moderator note It's hard, i know. Glad to help. )

    Invincible_summerChazCitta
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @how said:
    Perhaps anyone here who is experienced in the jhanas does not assume that those experiences qualify them to play the role of a jhanic teacher on the internet, especially when such jhanic teachings usually require intuitive face to face exchanges between beings, or at least between a teacher & disciple who know each other well, instead of attempting such advise with the typed words of an unknown being's experience.

    That may be, but color me skeptical. I maintain that noone here has attained even J1. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Call it a hunch. :-)

    (I tried four times to reference this post to chaz's post above to no avail...sigh!)

    The new markup system. I hate it. I wish we'd go back to BBCODE.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    @Chaz
    A jhanic practioner worth there practice would agree with your hunch that they have attained nothing.

    Invincible_summer
  • ZeroZero Veteran Veteran

    @Chaz said:

    That may be, but color me skeptical. I maintain that noone here has attained even J1. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Call it a hunch. :-)

    This is a reflection of your view and hence your limitation.

    ChazInvincible_summer
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @how said:
    A jhanic practioner worth there practice would agree with your hunch that they have attained nothing.

    ('their'....)

    Sorry, but it can make a whole difference..... * red face *

    EarthninjahowInvincible_summer
  • ZeroZero Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @chaz - suffering is rarely a laughing matter.

    The constituents of panna (wisdom) are view and intention.
    The constituents of sila (conduct) include speech and action.
    The constituents of samadhi (focus) are effort, concentration and mindfulness.

    Consider how propagating speculative assumptions sit with view, intention, speech, action, effort, concentration and mindfulness.

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @Zero said:
    chaz - suffering is rarely a laughing matter.

    And I agree, however, I'm not laughing at suffering.

    I'm laughing at your attitude.

    I remain skeptical of the notion that there's anyone on this board that has actually achieved J1.

    But I am am open to suggestion. Can you name someone and the teacher who bears witness to said attainment?

  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    @Earthninja: You will experience a whole range of emotions during meditation. Some days you will be more inspired than others. Some days you'll feel elation. Others you will be plain bored. Others, you'll get swept away by the endless mind chatter. And then, back to total bliss.
    Is it a jhâna? Does it matter? What counts is: keep growing in your practice and as a person. Labels are obstacles.

    Earthninja
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran

    I have heard that the jhanas have been described as: 1st is bliss, 2nd bliss beyond bliss, 3rd bliss beyond bliss beyond bliss 4 bliss beyond bliss beyond bliss beyond bliss beyond bliss

    If you didn't experience bliss.. I suspect it wasn't jhana :P

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Do meditating practitioners have an equivalent to a birder's life book?

    Hopefully not for long!

    The maintaining, fostering or proclaiming of a meditative score card for oneself
    is really only your ego accepting your invitation to tattoo it's initials on your butt.

    The maintaining, fostering or proclaiming of a meditative score card for someone else
    (like one's teacher) is only offering a wider selection of butts for the ego to play with.

    No real laurels to rest upon here!

    lobsterBuddhadragonEarthninjaChaz
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    There is no good whatsoever in making blanket assumptions, and worse, insisting upon them. Good grief.

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran

    Not sure what the last two posts were refering too, or who. Was trying to pass on some information.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    Om jhana 1 blissed out and so focussed on jhana 2 which must be unattainable ooooopps was that jhana 3 must be, cos am I free?, where am I now, rug, who pulled it - stop fucking around guys, this ain't funny any more, jhana 4; jhana 5 focus - be alive, jhana 6 feel like a prick; jhana 7 back in heaven; jhana 8 - so that is hate; jhana 9 boring life is sublime; jhana 10 back again!

    EarthninjaBuddhadragon
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    language, Timothy......

    anataman
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran Veteran

    I think it is not always inappropriate to mention you can reach jhana.

    It is like taking tennis lessons. If you were a top player in the city then you are more qualified to teach. So jhana could be a quality to teach. Better yet have a teacher who is widely known from reputation. And have that teacher approve of your meditation on the basis of having worked with you for awhile.

    But you wouldn't go out of your way to say you won the city tennis tournament. What I am saying is there is a difference between bragging and giving a teaching credential.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Isn't it strange....?
    A top tennis player can be lauded by all and sundry and be hailed as probably the best player of all time.
    But if the tennis player says it - suddenly, he's an arrogant, big-headed, conceited individual who needs bringing down a peg or two....

    The British are very good at this.
    They elevate the famous and put them on a pedestal, then spend the next few years demolishing it.

    lobstershanyinBuddhadragon
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran Veteran

    Just take a look at the beginning of (some? most?) dharma texts where they give all the credentials of the teacher. I am not sure if that happens in all traditions. As long as it's true, even if subjective, I don't mind in the context of a book where you want to get people excited about the book they will read.

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @Jeffrey said:
    I think it is not always inappropriate to mention you can reach jhana.

    In the Theravadan tradition, I believe it is against the vinaya for monastics to talk about their attainments. In Zen, I believe it is more of an unspoken rule, as discussing attainments won't really help anyone anyway, and using words would "cheapen" the experience.

    Discussing jhanic achievements is more something that has come out of Daniel Ingram's "Hardcore Dharma" style of teaching.

    Buddhadragon
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Yes, I was on a retreat and a meditator asked the monk (Theravadin) if he had experienced jhana. He wouldn't say, he noted he's not allowed to talk about it.

    I believe I experienced jhana. My experience seemed to match up with the description I had read. Alot of my reading of Buddhism says that you will never forget this, or never forget that during meditation. I forget alot of things however.

    The experience I had seemed to start with a happiness in my heart.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    Jhanas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs,
    jhanas in pyjamas are eating teddy bears...

    I am really sorry, but until someone can define a jhanic state without resorting to some 'other' state of mind, I'm going to take the piss out of jhanas as ridiculous states of mind, and deny their existence - there is nothing better than polarity, for hilarity and knowledge. I have meditated, and I've experienced a relaxed still and happy mind, but it's Mind and It's nothing more or less than 'Mind', what more is there?

    I'm waiting ... \ lol / ...

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @anataman‌ eating teddy bears? That escalated quickly! :)

    Everything is mind so if you deny it, it doesn't exist! That's your game to play. It's just a label for a particular experience some people have. In my opinion!

    shanyin
  • SeaOfTranquilitySeaOfTranquility Veteran Veteran

    The jhanas.

    Yes I have experienced them. I must say they are quite pleasant. In a general way I would describe them as relaxing into bliss. Any more detail of my experiences would probably not be of any help. I would just add that as you meditate you are going to see many things arise and pass.

    It is probably best not to make too big a deal out of jhana as to not become attached or disappointed. Just accept and let go of whatever arises without judgement and analysis. Returning your attention to the breath that is happening now with patience and kindness. (Couldn't hurt to smile either.) The resulting calm will allow for insight to develop. The resulting insight will allow for calm to develop. This calm awareness carries over off the cushion in the form of mindfulness.

    Best Wishes

    Earthninja
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Not only do I not understand exactly (at least intellectually) what people are talking about who have replied to my posts, I don't understand why people feel uncomfortable with choosing to believe anything they want to believe about me and anything I have to say about my experience.

    Jhanas were taught before Siddharta became the Buddha. He experienced one and realized it was as far as his teacher could get him. They exist in other traditions if I am not mistaken.

    In Buddhism, they are when the 5 hinderances are bassically suppressed through concentration to the point that that those 5 are not experienced for even days, which is what was my experience.

    They are the 'heavenly' states.

    JeffreyEarthninja
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Alas, surely I respect someone who can challenge me on things I have to "new" buddhists.

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    @shanyin said:
    Not sure what the last two posts were refering too, or who. Was trying to pass on some information.

    Not you hon, we were chewing on Chaz a little :D He needed it, we left a great deal of his ass intact because he's good for a lot of things.

    I'm no expert on the monk's rules of conduct (vinaya) but I do remember reading that monks are admonished to NOT discuss attainments such as jhanic states or really far out there feats of meditation or enlightenment. I dunno if they can't discuss it amongst themselves or not with laypersons or either/or.

    The more secular-western neo-Buddhist meditators like Ingram et al have decided they don't have to abide by vinaya monk rules and make all sorts of claims to attainment all the way out to enlightenment (or maybe pre-enlightenment). Generally, they are mobbed and chased with pitchforks for doing this by more traditional Buddhist practitioners. I know less than either side of the issue so I'm the last person to issue some kind of 'statement' of belief.

    I DO know I have experienced an experience that reads, sounds and unless my body is doing way different things than most bodies, a type of jhanic or pre-jhanic state -- spontaneously. The conditions that gave rise to it were intense and dangerous, not everyday stuff, and I feel confident saying I've slipped into access concentration over and over again, but no jhana type experience DURING meditation itself.

    Jhana is a human experience, it is no earned or deserved or 'won'. It rises from conditions that give rise to jhana, and those conditions can arise from a variety of pre-existing conditions. I'm just saying this is logical, if jhana is a human experience.

    I think Mr Chaz likes to provoke his own butt chewing at times, he likes a good debate.

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran

    I guess my last post was a bit defensive. sometimes I don't know what people are saying. Think before you speak, aaron :P

    and anatman, is there not form also? Jhanas have something to do with that I believe.

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @SeaOfTranquility said:
    The jhanas.

    It is probably best not to make too big a deal out of jhana as to not become attached or disappointed. Just accept and let go of whatever arises without judgement and analysis. Returning your attention to the breath that is happening now with patience and kindness. (Couldn't hurt to smile either.) The resulting calm will allow for insight to develop. The resulting insight will allow for calm to develop. This calm awareness carries over off the cushion in the form of mindfulness.

    Best Wishes

    Thank you! The last paragraph is incredibly wise.

  • CittaCitta Veteran Veteran

    It seems to me that if someone feels the need to defend their jhanic achievements , then those jhanic achievements didn't do them much good in the Buddhist sense.

    It even looks as though their ego grasped more reinforcement...

    Buddhadragonhowanataman
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Perception is often deception.
    Remember, our view is merely a reflection of what we might do, and how we might feel.

    In the end, it's only opinion, not truth....

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @Earthninja said:
    Has anybody had experience with the jhanas?

    Yes, I've had some experience, but usually on retreat while doing a lot of meditation.
    There isn't a consensus about the need for jhana, even within Theravada. And of course different traditions measure meditative "progress" in different ways, while some wouldn't even recognise the idea of "progress".

    Earthninja
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