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Is it better to clearly perceive samsara or be blissfully ignorant

TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existenceSamsara Veteran
edited May 2014 in Buddhism Basics

Prompted by Hamsaka's statement: "There are lots of people running around out there with their whole existence poisoned by how clearly they perceive samsara"

This statement resonated with me. At times the realization of the human state, or condition has been a burden and there were times I wished I could be a believer, to have all my concepts neatly tied up, to know there is a nice place I and my family will go. That there is an inherent reason for my existence.
But as they say one can't unlearn something. So I must face what ultimately is the truth of this life, dukkha, annata annica. At times this is hard but this, despite myself, is something that I can't ignore or unlearn.
My rambling thoughts at 0500 in the AM.

Dandelion

Comments

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    Thays smile is very broad.

  • MeisterBobMeisterBob Mindful Agnathiest CT , USA Veteran
    edited May 2014

    For me I'd rather have clarity of my condition. I find the knowledge that a lot of my suffering is self inflicted and there is a way for it to be reduced a relief. No, not a warm fuzzy," I'll be taken care of " relief that in the back of my mind I'd probably doubt anyways.... Still there is a simple reason for me to be here- because I am ,no more no less..... Working on my selfering (self inflicted suffering - ohh new term!) seems the most logical choice. Bob

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @ourself said:
    Thays smile is very broad.

    @ourself:
    Are you talking about this Thay? :
    Thay, a member of the fictional Cult of Skaro in Doctor Who television series ;)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Theswingisyellow said:
    Prompted by Hamsaka's statement: "There are lots of people running around out there with their whole existence poisoned by how clearly they perceive samsara"

    This statement resonated with me. At times the realization of the human state, or condition has been a burden and there were times I wished I could be a believer, to have all my concepts neatly tied up, to know there is a nice place I and my family will go. That there is an inherent reason for my existence.
    But as they say one can't unlearn something. So I must face what ultimately is the truth of this life, dukkha, annata annica. At times this is hard but this, despite myself, is something that I can't ignore or unlearn.

    That. to me, is Samsaric Bliss.
    To know, to understand, to see things, with eyes which are lightly clouded by the veil of longing....

    To know it but takes a graceful sweep of the hand, to draw it aside, and see everything in a dazzling light.

    The effort is in the sweep....

    TheswingisyellowBuddhadragonDandelionEarthninja
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @Meisterbob: "selfering" love that term!
    In the end, some made up world doesn't make it for me either; it conflicts with reality and as such will never be liberating.

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    @federica:

    Nice thoughtful reply. Thank you

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I prefer to know, to whatever degree I can, because then I have something to work with. For a time, I wanted to be able to make Christianity fit with me, or me fit within it. But my desire to know and understand just didn't work with the "You just have to believe, let God handle the rest" that I was being told. I enjoyed my run with Paganism but I am not disciplined enough to maintain any sort of practice or study without a more regimented path. It was too much a "whatever you believe is fine and we can fit it in, and whatever views you happen to hold are all 100% fine, too" and there were no remotely local groups to meet with so I had no motivation, no elders, no friends, no one to bounce questions off of. In Buddhism I find answers, even if they aren't always the answers I want, and regardless I understand that I have a lot to work with and just like a steady exercise routine, I see steady positive changes. That's enough for me.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    Thays smile is very broad.> @Theswingisyellow said:

    Thay, a member of the fictional Cult of Skaro in Doctor Who television series ;)

    No, lol... It's a nickname for Thich Nhat Hanh, sorry about that.

    EarthninjaTheswingisyellow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Middle path.

    There is so much over-analyzing of every word and phrase by some on the forum that they would be better to take the middle path and be neither dwell on samsara or be "blissfully ignorant.

    DandelionShoshinEarthninja
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    what do you mean by 'over-analysing'....?

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    The path isn't that bad. Pema Chodron says meditation is: being your own friend, seeing what is there, sitting with difficult states, being in the present, and making no big deal.

    The seeing what is present might be touchy at times, but with the others it is not a bad way to live.

    Dandelion
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran

    @vinlyn said:
    Middle path.

    There is so much over-analyzing of every word and phrase by some on the forum that they would be better to take the middle path and be neither dwell on samsara or be "blissfully ignorant.

    I am guilty of this @vinlyn
    For me, it's part of trying to understand things though. It's about trying to understand the context in which things are said (which can be difficult over the internet!)

    But I also agree with what you say too.. it's just difficult to get there sometimes.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    No thanks. I don't want to over-analyze over-analysing...but note that the phrase "he (or she) is so anal" comes from the word analyzing.

    DandelionEarthninja
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2014

    @vinlyn said:
    No thanks. I don't want to over-analyze over-analysing...but note that the phrase "he (or she) is so anal" comes from the word analyzing.

    >

    Definition of 'Analysis':

    Origin

    >
    late 16th century: via medieval Latin from Greek analusis, from analuein 'unloose', from ana- 'up' + luein 'loosen'.
    >

    In light of that definition/origin, one may be tempted to consider the word as immediately associated with anal matter...

    However, if we search for the word 'anal', it's origin is -

    late Middle English: from Latin, originally 'a ring'.

    >

    Much as one might be tempted to connect 'analysis' with 'anal', they are in fact, unconnected.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited May 2014

    I have suffered off and on with depression my entire life. But I will tell you that the only thing that really made a difference for me was when I began to study Buddhism and really shift my thinking.

    See, my depression wasn't always of the "pointless" sort. For one example, I grew up thinking I was going to Hell for being gay, wondering why God had forsaken me, convinced I could withstand this "test" from God (as I was taught). I really believed that everything happened for a reason and that he always had a plan... But in studying Buddhism, my thinking changed when I encountered the concept of the Ten Worlds.

    "The prime concern of Buddhism is our life-state, the joy or suffering we experience at each moment. This is always seen as an interaction between external conditions and inner tendencies; the same conditions (the same workplace, for example) that will be experienced by one person as unremitting misery may be a source of exhilarating challenge and satisfaction to another. Strengthening our inner state so that we are able to resist and even transform the most difficult and negative conditions is the purpose of Buddhist practice."

    I realized that instead of something being done to me I had a certain amount of control over my life, my depression. I wasn't just bumbling along, dodging the slings and arrows, life was really what I made it. In reality, the idea that everything is "in God's hands" didn't make me feel relief, it made me feel helpless. I suddenly realized that I had been blaming a lot of external forces for my suffering. Moving away from a belief in God and fate, and yes, even an eternal afterlife... caused me to adopt a sense of accountability for my life, and thus, for the first time in my life... it made me feel truly free.

    Whenever I encounter new beliefs, I ask myself what the ultimate result of that belief would be on my life. In regards to Heaven, for me, the idea that my eventual end will be met with every comfort (including those that have passed) and basically serve as an end to this suffering, doesn't actually seem to grant a positive effect on this life(which is the only thing that we can actually prove we will be granted).

    These beliefs are fine for some, but for me, I just couldn't harbor them any more. I don't want to be in a rush to my end, I want to try and figure out how I can enjoy the life I have here in the now.

    federicaJeffreyTheswingisyellow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    When occasionally people speak to me, and try to justify Christianity over Buddhism, (and I'm not instigating an 'us vs them' discussion, here....) one of the things I explain to them, about Buddhism that appeals to me, is that in Christianity, you are expected to put it all 'out there' in the hope that some greater power will take care of everything.
    In Buddhism, you get to deal with all of it 'in here'. The Buck stops within.
    And far from taking the easy way out, it's actually much harder to step up to the plate and take full responsibility.
    but you DO get to exercise more self-control, and rather than being limiting, it's exhilaratingly liberating.

    DandelionzombiegirlBuddhadragonToraldris
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited May 2014

    It's better to clearly perceive samsara because if you do, then you don't suffer. :) If you suffer from perceiving samsara, that just means you don't perceive it clearly.

    blissfully ignorant

    I think that's called an "oxymoron" :)

    personDandelionBuddhadragon
  • MeisterBobMeisterBob Mindful Agnathiest CT , USA Veteran

    @seeker242 said:
    It's better to clearly perceive samsara because if you do, then you don't suffer. :) If you suffer from perceiving samsara, that just means you don't perceive it clearly.

    I think that's called an "oxymoron" :)

    Pain just is. It is part of life. I will have pain of all sorts- physical, emotional. The suffering is optional. I don't have to add to the pain. When I attach a story to the pain, when I take it personally, I add to the pain, suffer. Simple,not easy. It can be subtle too. The "broken shoelaces" can be harder to be mindful for...slip under the radar so to speak. Bob

  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran

    @Theswingisyellow I have read your opening post several times. It resonates, except for one thing... "you can't unlearn something". Isn't that what a chunk of Buddhism is about? Unlearning all the stuff that clutters our brains and getting back to our essence?

    I may have misunderstood.. I have not heard that saying before.

  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran

    sorry I feel I should expand... so, we can unlearn things, because Buddhism is successful. By successful I don't mean we all get enlightened, but there are steps we are able to trace.. go back... and go 'home' (meditation/mindfulness for example) then over time we unlearn things that are patterns that are no good for us. Then, we implement better patterns, or ways of existing.

    I hope I am making some sense!

    Jeffrey
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    The term "anal" in that context actually comes from the phrase "anal retentive" as a description of a person who is overly fussy about particulars and can't let anything go.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @karasti said:
    The term "anal" in that context actually comes from the phrase "anal retentive" as a description of a person who is overly fussy about particulars and can't let anything go.

    Yes, and in my view, trying to nail down everything about samsara -- when we admit we can't even understand karma -- is being anal and it isn't helping to wallow in it.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    For me anal retentive means that everything must be the right way and everyone else is doing it the 'wrong' way. An example was my gramma barking orders about how my mom should make her bed. Fussy is a good example.

    So how does 'fussy' relate to Buddhism? That is a good question.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Kia Ora,
    Is it better to clearly perceive samsara or be blissfully ignorant

    Who wants to know ?

    Metta Shoshin :)

    Earthninja
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    @ourself said:
    Thays smile is very broad.> Theswingisyellow said:
    No, lol... It's a nickname for Thich Nhat Hanh, sorry about that.

    I realize that just messing around :)@ourself

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited June 2014

    @Dandelion said:
    Theswingisyellow I have read your opening post several times. It resonates, except for one thing... "you can't unlearn something". Isn't that what a chunk of Buddhism is about? Unlearning all the stuff that clutters our brains and getting back to our essence?

    I may have misunderstood.. I have not heard that saying before.

    Unlearn in the way that once I stop believing in Santa Claus i can't start believing in him again. In one way, once the veil is removed you can't put it back on again.

    Buddhadragon
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
    edited June 2014

    @karasti said:
    The term "anal" in that context actually comes from the phrase "anal retentive" as a description of a person who is overly fussy about particulars and can't let anything go.

    Should we warn @Jll on the thread "Dealing with constipation" that one of the side effects of constipation will be that she'll begin to over-analyze Buddhism? :)

    Toraldrisfederica
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited June 2014

    @federica said:
    When occasionally people speak to me, and try to justify Christianity over Buddhism, (and I'm not instigating an 'us vs them' discussion, here....) one of the things I explain to them, about Buddhism that appeals to me, is that in Christianity, you are expected to put it all 'out there' in the hope that some greater power will take care of everything.
    In Buddhism, you get to deal with all of it 'in here'. The Buck stops within.
    And far from taking the easy way out, it's actually much harder to step up to the plate and take full responsibility.
    but you DO get to exercise more self-control, and rather than being limiting, it's exhilaratingly liberating.

    With the qualification that one of the largest schools of Buddhism is Pure Land, which relies on "other power " ..that of Amida Buddha , just as much as Christianity relies on the 'other power' of Christ.

    Probably because of an uncomfortable similarity, Pure Land is the least known school of Buddhism in the west. Despite the fact that it has many more followers than Zen or mainstream Mahayana.

    Interestingly DT Suzuki the pioneer who introduced many westerners to Buddhism thought that Pure Land would eventually be the form of Buddhism that would be most successful in terms of numbers in the west too. But that it would take a couple of generations.

  • footiamfootiam Veteran

    @Theswingisyellow said:
    Prompted by Hamsaka's statement: "There are lots of people running around out there with their whole existence poisoned by how clearly they perceive samsara"

    This statement resonated with me. At times the realization of the human state, or condition has been a burden and there were times I wished I could be a believer, to have all my concepts neatly tied up, to know there is a nice place I and my family will go. That there is an inherent reason for my existence.
    But as they say one can't unlearn something. So I must face what ultimately is the truth of this life, dukkha, annata annica. At times this is hard but this, despite myself, is something that I can't ignore or unlearn.
    My rambling thoughts at 0500 in the AM.

    It would not be a problem at all if you are the lucky one who is not burdened thus. That while there is dukkha, annata, and annica there is also a prescription which you could understand and identify with and thus is able to be above them all.

    Theswingisyellow
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran

    @Theswingisyellow said:

    Unlearn in the way that once I stop believing in Santa Claus i can't start believing in him again. In one way, once the veil is removed you can't put it back on again.

    Oh I see what you mean now, thanks for the clarification!

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @Theswingisyellow said:
    Prompted by Hamsaka's statement: "There are lots of people running around out there with their whole existence poisoned by how clearly they perceive samsara"

    This statement resonated with me. At times the realization of the human state, or condition has been a burden and there were times I wished I could be a believer, to have all my concepts neatly tied up, to know there is a nice place I and my family will go. That there is an inherent reason for my existence.
    But as they say one can't unlearn something. So I must face what ultimately is the truth of this life, dukkha, annata annica. At times this is hard but this, despite myself, is something that I can't ignore or unlearn.
    My rambling thoughts at 0500 in the AM.

    How good are rambling thoughts! For me I've never been happier. To know that the senseless pursuits I once strived to obtain are pointless!
    I can appreciate being here and now so much more! And man there are some great books and lectures on Buddhism!
    I just read Joshus Dog( excuse spelling)

    Most of the people I have met who believe in a amazing afterlife seem pretty unamazed being here. I Am even happy when doing the dishes! Most days anyways haha.

    Welcome to reality! We have been here the whole time haha

    Buddhadragonmfranzdorf
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    Indeed reflecting on the being grateful thread it is samsara that has brought me to this, THIS life!
    Not something else.
    Gassho

    Earthninja
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    I don't think samsara is a joke or something to nimbly leap over or reason away with clever slogans about anatta or delusion. My insight is the bleak pointlessness of samsara is the first noble truth, in its bare essence. It really IS pointlessly circular and unendingly, exhaustingly bleak.

    Needless to mention what the second noble truth tells us, but until samsara is fully grasped by me, I'll still chase those tattered remnants, the shadows and the echoes.

    Our society tends to pathologize people who are ironically courageous enough to stand by their experience of samsara. All you need is basic rationality to perceive enough samsara to permanently bend your brain :D . You are 'depressed' if you aren't moved by having a new kitchen installed, or getting a 'better' job.

    Samsara is our worst nightmare. Thank goodness for the other three noble truths.

    I've gotten very, very attached to my misery, without any idea I've put it on a pedestal and granted it the status of a power greater than myself. I had no idea I was doing this, I thought my misery followed me like a plague. It is exactly the other way around.

    Dandelionlobster
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran

    This reminds me of the importance of always having a Beginner's Mind.

    :)

    Hamsakamfranzdorf
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    "I don't think samsara is a joke or something to nimbly leap over or reason away with clever slogans about anatta or delusion."

    Was I doing this ? I am confused?? The statement of yours resonated with me and it was a reasonable question I thought. I meant no offence to you.
    Not been all fun and games, I almost pulled the trigger more than once. It was my ongoing nightmare, not so much anymore. But it was in the darkness, the depths of depression, anxiety and despair that led me home. Far from being the worst thing in life, it is life along with the rest. It is not apart from me. This experience, this life is the jewel, it is the wonder, this right here. Not apart, not separate, the whole of it is okay.
    I am grateful.
    I don't want to trivialize another's pain or difficulty.
    This is where I am with mine. This is the only view (my own samsara) I can honestly speak to

  • I never had amnesia, but I am sure that ignorance is highly overrated.

  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    Actually, I don't think you can be blissfully ignorant of samsara for long. The reality check sooner or later always strikes.
    You can choose to remain blissfully ignorant as long as life goes your way. When life throws you a curve, there's no way you can hush the internal existential angst.

    lobsterHamsaka
  • Woah93Woah93 Veteran
    edited June 2014


    world of sleepers :)

    Anyway in my own view I tend to be more content and overall happy when I become more aware. I grew up feeling unsatisfied, suffering in my mind and chasing perfection but never actually achieving that.

    Now I still experience these things but meditation and buddhist writing provided me with a tangible idea of how these things work, where they come from and most importantly that my suffering is not unique. I'm not the only person experiencing this.

    I truly believe knowledge and awareness can directly counteract the insidious and negative of samsara but you have to put in the work and learn how to deal with those things once your aware of them.

    Ignorance might bring relieve but it can also lead you down some seriously dark roads and when you realize it it's too late.

  • Hey Theswingisyellow my definition of "life is dukkha" is: "life is whatever we need at the time to help us learn about ourselves, & then to grow as new souls in the making..I mean i don't wish to state the obvious but how can believing in something now, that only happens to us in the afterlife be taking the middle way..I have a few ideas about samsara reincarnation & the after life, but i don't have any fixed beliefs as i know they would be false beliefs..I mean you think about it any time your discussing or talking about samsara reincarnation or the after life etc, your talking about things that will never be proved to anyone whilst their alive..So as the whole idea of Buddhism is less thought, it would be a good idea to not contemplate life after death etc too much, but rather to talk about how to practice, & to then practice often.

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