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"Don't like the American flag? Then, go home!"

2

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Sorry, I'm being cremated...just hopefully not too soon.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I second that!

    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    @Skeeterkb‌ Hope is really nothing different than wishing something to be different than it is. Any time you expect such things, you end up disappointed. That problem lies with you, and not the rest of us. We might but Buddhist (or part Buddhist, or not Buddhist at all, or Buddhist in philosophy but not religion, or just interested in Buddhism) but if we had all all figured out and were no longer stuck in political, cultural, familial etc ruts, then we wouldn't be here at all. You are at least practicing Buddhism, yes? Why don't you add your unique thoughts instead of telling us all we are doing it wrong? Provide yourself what you are looking for.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2014

    Trungpa said that there are three lords of materialism. I believe that our attachment to materialism is what causes a lot of conflicts. One example is resources. Noam Chomsky always talks about how every war has to do with colonialism. I'm not sure if it is just because of his brilliance, but I agree. And then perhaps Noam isn't totally correct as we all know there is conflict of beliefs in this world. The third 'lord' of materialism is attachment to states of mind. I cannot perceive how attaching states of mind leads to borders and conflict, but it is interesting to think about. I guess that agony and defeat of international sports are examples of clinging to a victorious state of mind.

  • betaboybetaboy Veteran

    @robot said:
    Good choice. Spare yourself the disappointment.

    You're beginning to sound like me, lol.

    karastiDavid
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran

    @vinlyn said:
    Fair enough. Come back and update me when it happens.

    Not long ago, our ancestors were struggling to make fire and cook. Now we are communicating on the internet. If this isn't incredible, I don't know what is.

    Compared to that, all nations uniting into one does not seem that illogical or absurd.

    Davidlobster
  • SkeeterkbSkeeterkb Explorer

    @karasti said:
    Skeeterkb‌ Hope is really nothing different than wishing something to be different than it is. Any time you expect such things, you end up disappointed. That problem lies with you, and not the rest of us. We might but Buddhist (or part Buddhist, or not Buddhist at all, or Buddhist in philosophy but not religion, or just interested in Buddhism) but if we had all all figured out and were no longer stuck in political, cultural, familial etc ruts, then we wouldn't be here at all. You are at least practicing Buddhism, yes? Why don't you add your unique thoughts instead of telling us all we are doing it wrong? Provide yourself what you are looking for.

    Then what is your practice other than an impulse for something "different" ? To accept everything with total passivity is nihilism = a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and** that existence is senseless and useless.**

    As for my thoughts on social/political conflict, as per experience all interpersonal conflict is rooted in selfishness and the ego run wild. Group expressions of this are simply individual ego multiplied and magnified. How one labels and rationalizes it is simply a mask for a group consciousness/ego.

  • SkeeterkbSkeeterkb Explorer

    PS; I am amused by the frequency with which those who have lived in a capitalist society seek answers in communism and vice versa. All blind grasping at thorns. Reality is that it is the powerful vs the weak and the fix is in.

    Also to clarify, I claim no spiritual label. "I AM" a sojourner seeking truth.

    Hamsaka
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @Skeeterkb said:
    I am amused by the frequency with which those who have lived in a capitalist society seek answers in communism and vice versa. All blind grasping at thorns.

    Interesting. I had never really thought about that.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Skeeterkb said:
    PS; I am amused by the frequency with which those who have lived in a capitalist society seek answers in communism and vice versa. All blind grasping at thorns. Reality is that it is the powerful vs the weak and the fix is in.

    Also to clarify, I claim no spiritual label. "I AM" a sojourner seeking truth.

    They say the grass is greener on the other side but I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle as per usual.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No, because that's called 'a fence' and sitting on one never did anyone any lasting good....

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    The grass isn't greener over there, or even in the middle. The only thing you can do is accept the grass where you are, whether it's lush and comfortable or dry and pokey.

    @Skeeterkb‌ I know what nihilism is, and no, I do not practice it. I just see no point in continually "hoping" because hope doesn't do anything. It doesn't mean you just say "the hell with it all" but hope doesn't mean much on it's own without actions of some sort to move in the direction of what you are hoping for. I know a lot of people who hope for certain types of bodies, yet continue to sit on the couch and drink beer and eat chips. Hoping is doing nothing for them. That is what I meant. My hoping for peace in the world does nothing if I am unwilling to cultivate peace within myself, my children, and my family. Hope for peace makes no difference what so ever. Living in a manner that develops peace however, does.

    SkeeterkbJeffreylobsterChaz
  • SkeeterkbSkeeterkb Explorer

    @karasti said:

    Skeeterkb‌ I know what nihilism is, and no, I do not practice it. I just see no point in continually "hoping" because hope doesn't do anything. It doesn't mean you just say "the hell with it all" but hope doesn't mean much on it's own without actions of some sort to move in the direction of what you are hoping for. I know a lot of people who hope for certain types of bodies, yet continue to sit on the couch and drink beer and eat chips. Hoping is doing nothing for them. That is what I meant. My hoping for peace in the world does nothing if I am unwilling to cultivate peace within myself, my children, and my family. Hope for peace makes no difference what so ever. Living in a manner that develops peace however, does.

    I enjoyed this post and offer you this in return...

    Vastmind
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    ^Neat!

  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too
    Imagine all the people living life in peace
    You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
    I hope some day you'll join us, and the world will live as one

    For the younger ones among us, the words above are not mine, they are an excerpt from the song Imagine by the peacenik John Lennon.

    David
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Odd that someone would bring up this pop song (and yes, that's all it was...a pop song that turned into more money for John Lennon) on a religious forum. They seem to forget that another part of the lyric is "Imagine...no religion too..." Oops, there goes Buddhism.

    And then there's "Imagine no possessions...". John Lennon had a net worth estimated at $800,000,000 in 1980...that would be over $2.8 BILLION dollars in today's currency.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @federica said:
    No, because that's called 'a fence' and sitting on one never did anyone any lasting good....

    You see a fence?

    Look closer.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @karasti said:
    The grass isn't greener over there, or even in the middle. The only thing you can do is accept the grass where you are, whether it's lush and comfortable or dry and pokey.

    That is the easy way to be sure but tell that to the abused.

    In reality, compassion in action takes effort and removing unneeded borders between us is compassion in action.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    There is one quote I like from Lennon, and to be honest it's all I really know of him: "When I was 5 years old my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down "happy". They told me that I didn't understand the question. I told them that they didn't understand life."

    David
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited July 2014

    MODERATOR NOTE Argumentative and inflammatory O/T comments removed.

    @ourself, @vinlyn; Pack it in, NOW.

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2014

    There seem to me to be a few pre(mis-)conceptions here:
    First: We don't own the land. If anything, it owns us.

    1. Nationalism and flag-idolatry are unskillful beliefs which lead us into rather than away from dukkha.

    2. America, whether the US bit or the Canadian bit or the Mexican, Panamanian, etc., just like the artificial divisions of Europe and elsewhere, will pass away as have every other empire, stste, etc. Just as the Poles if you don't believe me or the Babylonians.

    3. Cultural differences are just that: cultural. A Californian and a a Texan may be siblings under the skin but think differently, as do a Londoner and a Lancastrian. These are accidents not the substance (to be Thomist) of the human. As a Buddhist, I strive to experience the essence, as far as it exists, rather than the accidents.

    federicaDavidInvincible_summerlobster
  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran
    edited July 2014

    Vinlyn, the line "and no religion too" is not in another part of the song -- it's in the very part I quoted!

  • MeatballMeatball Explorer

    Those fifty stars should be replaced with fifty corporate symbols. From my own personal experience patriotism here is nothing but racism in disguise. I don' like it but I understand why people feel that way. They are humans like everyone else. They have emotions and they have ignorance.

    Invincible_summerlobstermmozombiegirl
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @Steve_B said:
    Vinlyn, the line "and no religion too" is not in another part of the song -- it's in the very part I quoted!

    Yup. My mistake.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Compared to that, all nations uniting into one does not seem that illogical or absurd.

    I find this obsession with 'personal identity' quite intriguing and a great source of suffering. My affiliation is to the faceless and anonymous who have transcended their home. Yes we have a source birth, a cultural ID, a history but attachments to such histrionics is like pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth . . . or in my case a piece of stuffed cloth . . . :wave: .

    karastiDavid
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited July 2014

    @vinlyn said:
    Odd that someone would bring up this pop song (and yes, that's all it was...a pop song that turned into more money for John Lennon) on a religious forum. They seem to forget that another part of the lyric is "Imagine...no religion too..." Oops, there goes Buddhism.

    >

    Only if you count it as a religion. ;) .

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Ya caught me...in a way...since I don't. But most do. ;)

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited July 2014

    I agree with ourself. Consider that the human history is pretty strong proof that the world will be united in one nation/union in some time too come.

    If you look at how tribes grew into towns and towns grew into nations and nations combined into countries and now how lately the different countries are forming into alliances, unions and federations, it seems pretty obvious that the world will be united under one rule in some time to come.

    There has allways been a strong desire in humans to form aggregations. Through alliances or through war.

    /Victor

    Davidzombiegirlperson
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    I agree with ourself. Consider that the human history is pretty strong proof that the world will be united in one nation/union in some time too come.

    If you look at how tribes grew into towns and towns grew into nations and nations combined into countries and now how lately the different countries are forming into alliances, unions and federations, it seems pretty obvious that the world will be united under one rule in some time to come.

    There has allways been a strong desire in humans to form aggregations. Through alliances or through war.

    /Victor

    And as we form these groups in order to belong, we still see our uniqueness shine through and disagreements often cause rifts again and subgroups form until it could seem as if belonging is little more than wishful thinking.

    That couldn't be further from the truth however because in reality there is only one group and you can't help but belong to it.

    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited July 2014

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_2003–10 (2003-2010)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_2011–present (2011- present)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts (ongoing conflict; note particularly the map)

    Yup, we're just all one big happy family.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Stated that way, @Karasti, I can be more in agreement. I like that you use the word "allies".

    I think of some of the courses I took in linguistics, and how those interested in language are upset over the loss of so many languages throughout the world. I think of how much I enjoy meeting people from throughout the world and getting to learn about their differing cultures.

    vive la différence!

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    I live in a city with over 100 languages and people get along just fine for the most part. Clinging to things like using a certain language may hold some kind of nostalgic worth but it seems like more clinging to a false identity to me. However, that's why having borders to signify preferential living differences is better than pretending the borders actually make us different.

    It's funny to me that when someone speaks of a unified world, others see conformity even as it is our differences that will eventually unite us. Afterall, besides being made of the same stuff the only thing absolutely everything has in common is uniqueness and change.

    lobster
  • @Skeeterkb said:
    I experienced this thread as very disappointing. I am/was hoping that Buddhists would show themselves to be unique, yet when it comes to politics and sociology this thread reads as predictably and trite as an assembly of any other Christian religious groups, atheists and agnostics.. Independence of thought would be refreshing instead of the deeply rutted paths of bumper sticker wisdoms. The liberal vs conservative (communist/fascist) debate is nothing more than propaganda used to delude and divide the weak by the powerful. The powerful are united by their allegiance to power. The bulk of humanity are deluded and aimless, yet self satisfied if they can find some herd to stumble about with. Their cry is I AM DIFFERENT and to prove it I hang with a group where we are all alike each other by being different than them...

    sigh...

    @skeeterkb I am curious: what exactly did you hope to find, or was disappointed to find instead, in this thread? Your post was all over the place. This thread certainly is nothing like the ones you would find in either a Christian, conservative, or atheist forum precisely because we neither blame one group nor excuse another for the problems getting along. I don't see your problem.

    Invincible_summer
  • MeatballMeatball Explorer
    edited July 2014

    As long as people don't promote racism in the name of patriotism, there is no problem flying national flag. I think, currently nazis are doing it South Carolina.

    "always remember if it ain't white, it ain't right. White power"

    .[Published time: July 15, 2014 20:33 http://on.rt.com/93f1s5 ](http://Published time: July 15, 2014 20:33 http://on.rt.com/93f1s5 )

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    @Skeeterkb said:
    So hope is a preconception? I will then journey towards dropping hope from my consciousness.

    Good luck with that one!

    Skeeterkb
  • edited August 2014

    I don't have any problems with flag-waving. I love the tapestry and different meanings of various national flags. I have a tattoo of the Grand Union flag, which predated the well-known current Stars and Stripes. It was the actual flag flown at the signing of the Declaration and carried in George Washington's army. It is a symbol espousing the peculiar English liberties won in the Magna Carta and Glorious Revolution.

    It would be off-putting to see my neighbor hoist the Soviet or Confederate flag, but to each their own. Fly whatever flag you damn well please.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    I think humanities slide into ignorance started with a concept of who's part of a tribe and who isn't.

    The basis of these adversarial conditionings are now so innately interwoven with our psyches that it often takes years of meditative work just to deconstruct them enough to even see them, let alone bring some resolution to their inertia.

    Waving a flag of identity around is more realistically saying, over here Dukka, could we have some more suffering, pretty please!

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I think all flags should be banned and replaced with pure white cloths with the country's name simply emblazoned upon it. Flags were once a symbol of patriotism and national pride; now they indicate separatism, superiority and elitism. When it comes to the fact that a country's nationals are advised AGAINST flying their nation's flag, from their own home, because it incites racism and an essence of dominance, you know the place is going to the dogs.... This from 2003.... and attitudes have in fact worsened....

    Toraldris
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    We should all have one of those. Yeah.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @lobster said:
    I iz home and so iz my flag . . .

    See, that's what I'm talking about. Until we find we are not alone in the universe.

  • mmommo Veteran

    Sometimes, people is so complicated to understand. I am currently living abroad, in UK. I wouldn't mind if someone fly UK flag next door. I just will be like: "Oh good for them, they are passionate about something, which make them alive and human"

  • It is interesting that most national flags are composed of straight lines and hard angles, often right angles, which my feminist architect friends have pointed out to me imply patriarchy. "Patriotism is not enough".

    Invincible_summer
  • I think that Patriotism is the lowest form of morality. "It is good because it is of my group" which implies, "It is bad (or at least less good) because it is not of my group."

    Invincible_summerlobster
  • @ZenBadger: Precisely my point. Women, paid as little as possible, sewing flags for men to wave as they go to slaughter other men in the name of 'nation states' invented by men. Phallocracy in action.

    Skeeterkb
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    Down with Phallocracy!

    With what will it be replaced?

  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran

    Maybe people of any gender who think with the organ between their ears rather than their thighs?

    federicalobsterWonderingSeeker
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