Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

"Don't like the American flag? Then, go home!"

13»

Comments

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @ZenBadger said:
    National flags are made with straight lines and right angles because women had to sew them together out of bits of coloured cloth. My gran used to sew flags at a local factory, she hated any flags with circles or zig-zags.

    She would probably hate this one ....

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @anataman said:
    Down with Phallocracy!

    No leave it alone. I like being in power. So does Mr. Happy!

    We'll still have to apologize for every damned thing, so we might as well get to run things as compensation.

    With what will it be replaced?

    Why, vajocracy of course.

    Actually, I believe that mellons should be in charge.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Just as well.

    Chaz
  • I think the ideal of the melting pot has at least in the past been one of our most cherished cultural myths. At one time in South Fl a widely sold bumper sticker read as fallows. Will the last american to leave please bring the flag. People come to the US for so many different reasons. A Syrian I know put it this way. He said that he escaped a country of bakseesh that made it hard for him to be a successful businessman. But he little good to say about our social values. Is he a lesser immigrant because of his point of view.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Somewhere back a while I read that we (in America) are a mixing bowl, but not a melting pot. Meaning that we throw a lot of different cultures into the bowl, but they don't melt together. I think that actually makes a lot of sense.

    Ironically, just before reading the post by @grackle, I was thinking about this issue because I just went to see "Hundred Foot Journey". Whenever I go to movies that have relatively positive multicultural themes, I get very emotional. And I feel so very sorry for so many Americans who cannot enjoy experiencing other cultures.

    Back to the mixing bowl concept, all too many Americans want to pick out of the salad only the things that they like, while setting the ingredients they don't like -- or haven't experienced -- aside, never to be savored.

    Damn, how I sometimes miss Thailand (or Malaysia, or Singapore, or Jakarta, or...). And I'm not naive. As much as I miss the different culture of Thailand and the Thais, I haven't forgotten that there are just as many negatives in their culture, just as many bad people in their country. But there is so much to experience in that or any different culture. Some to be enjoyed, some not.

    We are so damned White here.

  • Of all the places I've been the island of Crete was a place I shall always remember. So many cultures and civilizations left their mark. There was very ancient blood there which is always comforting.

    @vinlyn. I have often thought that the love of the flag covers what many Americans really want. They want in my opinion gratitude from immigrants. As though that one quality could remove all the perceived difficulties.

    vinlyn
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    In 1968 an extremely intelligent and far-seeing politican called Enoch Powell once made a "Rivers of Blood" speech, which ultimately caused the end of his political career and his demise in the public eye. Everybody accused him of racisim, which actually was as far off the mark as you could be. Yet it was prophetic and ultimately, people 'got' what he had in fact been talking about.
    More recently, Ian Tebbit, an equally astute and gifted Politician (I know, an oxymoron, right?!) stated that a country can be multi-national, but it cannot be multi-cultural. And again, he's right.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    ^^^. All I can try to say about that is....When my husband lived in London...he never abused anyone....and I don't think my son will either. It's not a 'negro' culture thing. Are we louder? Yes. When we and other black families started to move into the 'burbs...yeah...white people started moving out and said the same things this guy and other white people say. I disagree. He's not right.

    I do think it's racism, bec theres alot of blanket statements and assumptions about Negros in there. Theres no reason to fear my family....or reprocutions of us moving in to your neighborhood. Do I speak for all negros? No. Do I speak for all African Immigrants? No.

    Just like I don't think he's speaking for all white people.

    I agree theres a problem with culture and social norms colliding...but an attitude of "Go back where you came from"...is not the answer.

    vinlynperson
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I never said he was. I merely said his speech was prophetic. and if you look at the statistics he quoted (remember, this was in 1968) he was absolutely spot-on. It is difficult - if not impossible - to enable a white person to see through the eyes of a black person, and it is equally impossible to seek to do the reverse. It's all very well saying "we're all the same under the skin"; we are. But inside the skull is a different matter. We all have personal identities, and the right to think the way we do. But the imposition of a specific CULTURAL tenet, on top, in place and alongside the cultural tenet of an adopted country - is not possible.

    It has NOTHING to do with racism - and if that's what you got from that speech, then you misunderstood it, just as it was totally misunderstood 46 years ago - but on the contrary, it has everything to do with feeling totally displaced and alien in your own very country of birth. He spoke of Negroes, because at the time, they were the prevalent culture and race coming to the UK, as natives of a country which was a part of the commonwealth. Remember the date. I was 11.
    Now, almost a half century later, other nationalities, cultures and immigrants have entered these shores, and the mix is far more diverse.
    When I wander round my town and the majority of words I hear, spoken by others, are in foreign languages - languages I neither know or understand - is it racist to want to feel at home in the place of my birth, instead of an outsider?

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    "When I wander round my town and the majority of words I hear, spoken by others, are in foreign languages - languages I neither know or understand - is it racist to want to feel at home in the place of my birth, instead of an outsider?"

    I really do understand that's where he and others here (US) are coming from....
    I'm just not sure what the answer/solution is, TBH.

    Most of white people's place of birth just has a better set up/life than most other places....so you can understand, why we aren't exactly ready to run back. There's a reason why people risk their life and that of their children to get to a better place with better opportunities.

    The racism comes in with the fear. Fear that a certain race is more dangerous or more abusive than another. More capable of wrong doings than another. Then acting on that prejudice/suspicion.

    Here in the US, young black men are being shot by police all the time. Whether it's just jay walking or stealing a pack of cigars from a corner store. That instant reaction is from their assumption that this 'kind' of person making this mistake is a greater danger to society as a whole.....and an assumption he does more dangerous things we just don't know about or he has the potential more than the white kids. They dont have much to fear from my son....but I have to tell my son to fear them. A young kids mistake and shenanigans here ( If your black), can cost you your life. ... :( ...

    Shoshin
  • NeleNele Veteran

    Having spent a few decades in Washington D.C., where it was common to hear several different languages when grocery shopping (or even at work; lots of foreign programmers), I actually felt less at home upon moving west to Colorado. Occasionally I hear Spanish being spoken, but that's it. Now I've been her awhile, it can be startling to see black people, there are so few in this state. I miss the diversity. In fact I would like to take up again the Spanish I learned in grade school.

    On another note: I find no resonance in thinking of myself as American, or southern even (I was born and raised in the deep South). I know the phrase "citizen of the world" is trite, but given the issues I'm concerned with, it feels more appropriate. I don't think I have even a smidgen of nationalistic pride.

    David
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2014

    Many people of ethnic origin here, are second or even third-generation, now....Many people now coming into the UK are white and from Eastern Europe. And sadly, a vast number of those are illegal or deceitful in their intentions. There is a record number of colleges and universities which have been barred from taking on new students due to the astronomical sheer quantity of bogus students trying to get into the UK on false education visas, but who then disappear into the bureaucratic mist, and end up working illegally, or worse still, resorting to crime. They conveniently lose their IDs or passports, which means they can lie about their country of origin, and cannot be deported. There are insufficient means, funds or facilities for detention, while their immigration status is reviewed, so they are released on bail and... guess what? They disappear and go elsewhere to continue what they were doing before they got caught. Why do they bypass countries such as Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands? Because such countries have a far higher threshold of intolerance, and have laws set in place making it extremely difficult for illegal immigrants to settle and establish themselves unnoticed and unseen.
    It has only been in the last year or so, that controls have begun to tighten here...While it is perceived that the Benefits System has been hugely exploited by immigrants, who have taken advantage of the image the UK has projected, of being a benefit handout free-for-all country, The Benefits System overall has only recently undergone an overhaul, in an effort to wheedle out the cheats and fraudsters. And of course, the people who genuinely need support, assistance and direction, have suffered, because the thresholds of qualifying for such support, assistance and direction, have been raised to such an extent that the qualifying criteria are not always achievable by those who can provide concrete proof they need them.
    As with so many other social dilemmas, I don't know what the answers are, but if answers exist, then they're certainly not simple to implement....

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    ^^^ That about sums it up here, as well. We need an overhaul here of our assistance programs...but bec of politics I don't think anyone will touch that....and it WILL open up a can of racist worms....but it needs to be dealt with/talked about, none the less. Understanding has to start from talking and listening.

    I also agree with doing things the 'right way'. As far as paperwork, citizenship, etc.

    Certain topics/problems also need to be addressed within the cultures of the immigrants.

    Stereotypes are usually half truths and each group needs to start looking hard in the mirror. What are we doing to feed any of these fears? What are we doing that keeps these prejudices going? There needs to be accountability...especially social within the black communities here. I have to tell my son all the time..." Don't give them the assurance" "Don't act/behave in a way that continues the cycle" That's real talk right there. Black households need to start addressing some of what goes for ok. I understand the reasons/causes for the starts of such things...but we have to start making life better for ourself. No white man makes you commit crimes and act a fool. Let me stop...hahaha..I don't think this is the audience for this soapbox....hahaha.

  • I know that some people prefer myth to maths but the reality of the impact of immigration on the UK may be different from UKIP rant:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

    betaboyperson
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2014

    Yes, I'm sure these statistics paint an accurate picture. :rolleyes: .

    I have to attend the Job Centre every fortnight, and every time I go there, I am greeted by a congregation of foreign nationals all queueing to get in. They can barely speak a word of English, so many of them have translators to help them.

    My Unemployment 'Coach' is Polish. Her name is Annitha.

    I had to contact the Local Council offices recently, with regard to housing benefit. Both the Council main receptionist and the person I spoke to in the Housing department, were not British. The receptionist was Slovakian and the Benefits officer was from New Delhi.

    I went to three agencies recently, to enrol and put forward my CV and credentials for possible employment. All three Agents I spoke to were not originally from the UK.

    All I can say is what I am experiencing is not myth, and maths only takes a small amount of jiggling to doctor the figures. it's easy, anyone can do it.

  • @federica said:
    In 1968 an extremely intelligent and far-seeing politican called Enoch Powell once made a "Rivers of Blood" speech, which ultimately caused the end of his political career and his demise in the public eye. Everybody accused him of racisim, which actually was as far off the mark as you could be. Yet it was prophetic and ultimately, people 'got' what he had in fact been talking about.
    More recently, Ian Tebbit, an equally astute and gifted Politician (I know, an oxymoron, right?!) stated that a country can be multi-national, but it cannot be multi-cultural. And again, he's right.

    I am amazed @federica‌, that for all we disagree on, we share a profound appreciation for Enoch Powell.

    I have many friends in Europe and have followed their immigration crises closely. It really is astounding how different the UK is from say 40 years ago.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2014

    What have we disagreed on, to any great degree...? :scratch: .

    I hugely admire Enoch Powell for many reasons, not merely his insight; he was particularly articulate, intelligent, connected to public opinion and outspoken. He was certainly not a puppet to public image, and didn't kow-tow to anyone. If he had an opinion, however unpopular it may have made him, he gave it. His perspicacity and acute awareness was to my mind, unrivalled for the period he lived in.

    And yes, you are quite right; the UK is virtually unrecognisable in comparison to the way it was then.

  • Alas, I fear that the UK is truly different from 40 years ago. At that time, there were very few anti-Semitic or xenophobic attacks. Today we are seeing a return to the days from 80 or 100 years ago when Jews were stoned in the streets, 'aliens' were interned and the poor were turned out of their houses and left to die on the streets. Samsara in action indeed.

  • It is safer, today, to come out as gay than to come out as Jewish or Muslim.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No Simon, that's being over-dramatic. Matters will not escalate to that extent because our legal system and adherence to the Human Rights Act will enable the Law to prevent that from happening, or at least intervene and punish those responsible if it does. There is already a strong movement in the UK for example - even among Muslims - striving to eliminate the barbaric habit of so-called "honour Killings" forced marriages for Muslim girls and in certain quarters, the abhorrent and inhuman practice of female genital mutilation. Something, incidentally, I also believe Jewish boys should not have to undergo, no matter what the religious rationale behind it.

    While I am genuinely thrilled that it is now a much safer and hospitable place for homosexuals to publicly declare their sexual preferences and persuasions (and rightly so), we are also extremely fortunate in the UK to still be a tolerant, permissive society; but many are of the opinion that a large number of immigrants - from wherever they come, and whatever their religion - are abusing that hospitality, and taking advantage of our good nature. Hence the regular influx and repeated attempts of all manner of illegal aliens leaving the inhospitable nations, and instead attempting to enter our borders in secret, via the ports connected to mainland Europe.
    Otherwise, they'd stop in France/Germany/Belgium/the Netherlands - wouldn't they?

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    10 myths about US immigration ..... Southern Poverty Law Center

    Myths about immigration and immigrants are common. Here are a few of the most frequently heard misconceptions along with information to help you and your students separate fact from fear.

    When students make statements that are mistaken or inaccurate, one response is to simply ask, “How do you know that’s true?” Whatever the answer—even if it’s “That’s what my parents say”—probe a little more to get at the source. Ask, “Where do you think they got that information?” or “That sounds like it might be an opinion and not a fact.” Guide students to find a reliable source and help them figure out how to check the facts.

    Here's the article....

    http://www.tolerance.org/immigration-myths

    Here's another one...American Immigration council

    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-school/top-10-myths-about-immigration

    person
  • @federica said:
    When I wander round my town and the majority of words I hear, spoken by others, are in foreign languages - languages I neither know or understand - is it racist to want to feel at home in the place of my birth, instead of an outsider?

    Nothing is permanent - that's a central point of Buddhism. Seems like you've forgotten about it.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 2014

    I do think it's a clinging...to an idea of how things were.

    I do think accepting change is a step in the right direction. It's never gonna be the same as it was 40 years ago...or even 10, as fast as the world and technology are moving. Times are different now. Times change....they always will. One person's golden era is another persons dark ages. I think older people need to be more involved in the changes and show/teach young people how to change things for the better instead of remaining in a nostalgic frame of mind. Young people and rock n roll will go on long after us. It will be their landscape to manage, and they know this. We can either help with our wisdom or keep wishing on a star.

    The playground opened up long ago to everyone...so like I said...telling everyone to go home just isn't an option....and really, most of the young generations don't want it as an option. They want direction and help as to how to get along and make all this work.

    We also have to start addressing poverty. That's the reason people are looking and fighting for a better life....and why people are willing to step over and on each other. "If I cant have it....why should he?" " Do I not have dinner bec that guys got too much"? Children display this basic need and fighting over resources at a very young age.

    Criminal activity, lying, cheating the system...it's all to feed themselves and their families.

    "A hungry man makes an angry man" -- Bob Marley

  • Maybe it seems 'over-dramatic' to you, federica. What have noticed is a new and worrying trend, or trends.

    Have you asked yourself why Ed Milliband was photographed with a bacon sandwich?
    Have you 'come out' as of Jewish descent and noticed a slight recoil from former friends who now look away when you meet them in the street?
    Have you checked the increasing number of attacks, physical, verbal and written, in the UK and France (well-known for anti-Semitism in any case)?

    This letter in the Independent may help you understand:
    "I’m just an ordinary middle-aged Londoner.

    I work in an office. I go to football. I like eating out. I enjoy the arts. I am a proud family man. I give up time for charity work. I try to be a decent contributing member of society. I pay my taxes honestly. But there appears to be something that sets me and my kind apart.

    At park gates in East London a friend of mine gets told to f**k off for photographing a flag. At a pub in Bath my wife gets called scum when she mentions her background. In a student hall in Manchester a friend’s son is asked to leave as the specially prepared food he chose to eat is not permitted because it carries a label written in a language used by a country that is “banned” by the student union.

    In Belfast a historic blue plaque is removed to deny part of my history. In theatres in Edinburgh and London I am told to denounce my opinions or lose the right to perform. A sportsman in Ireland tweets if he sees my kind he’ll punch us in the face and recommends others follow suit.

    Protesters across the country show no shame in shouting that my historical persecutors were right and social media is rife with vitriol towards me (even from so-called friends). And in Bradford I’m told that I am not even permitted to enter the city.

    What is this? Racism. Where is this? Britain and Ireland. When is this? Now. Who am I? I am a Jew.

    Never again, we say, never again.

    Stephen Spencer Ryde
    London N"

    Have you noticed that, despite UKIP attempting to become a mainstream party, anti-Semitic statements keep coming from its supporters without any of the laws you cite being invoked?

    If we dismiss these incidents as marginal, we are in danger of allowing the poison to become normalised again. It isn't as if it has never happened here before.

    As for non-Jewish immigrants who are taking advantage of the free movement of people, the British are just as free as, if I remember correctly, you benefited yourself as did I.

    Change will happen. That is the law of underlying reality. The problem is that we are challenged to do what we can to ensure that such change is away from the worse. Isn't that the whole thrust of the Third and Fourth Noble Truths?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    This thread has begun to run along parallel lines with this one...

    @betaboy‌, @Simonthepilgrim‌, I'm just telling it as I see it, and I see it every day. There's nothing UN~Buddhist about what I have said; I haven't actually attacked or condemned anyone, I've merely recounted how things are in my neck of the woods.

    @Vastmind‌ has posted some things that need to happen; all good ideas, but as with the 'unconscionable evil' thread, ideas are one thing, implementing them is quite another. And reconciling Buddhist teachings with everyday occurrences is often a challenge. as you well know from your own personal experience, @betaboy‌ , so just as a freindly caveat, consider the plank in your own eye, before you misconstrue my words, misinterpret my intentions, and criticise the speck in mine. ;) .

    vinlynmmo
Sign In or Register to comment.