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Can you be delusional and Buddhist too?
AllbuddhaBound
Veteran
One of the goals of Buddhism is to get real and dispel delusions. Can a person be delusional and be a good Buddhist too?
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In my opinion, yes, and for at least 2 reasons. First, Buddhists are also human, and delusion is part of being human. The only question in that regard is the degree of delusion. Second...well before I give the second aspect -- what exactly is a "good Buddhist"????? But, anyone can go down a wrong path, even with good intent.
I get what you mean about what is a "good Buddhist" as it relates to non-judgement. But if being a Buddhist is about living a life without illusions, are you actually capable of practicing Buddhism while living in a deluded world?
Then you are saying there are no "good" Buddhists ever, anywhere. Including Buddha himself.
Alright, let me put it this way. If you live in a world of delusion, and are only suspicious it is happening but feel you are helpless over it, can you practice Buddhism?
I think most Buddhists believe they are striving to dispel delusions in their life. What if you dispel what you believe are delusions, but you still cling onto other delusions unaware they are false? For example, what if you feel persecuted when others don't see it? How do you deal with this sense of paranoia if you are convinced it is real?
And what if the persecution is real? Then how does a Buddhist get real?
When you ask "Then you are saying there are no "good" Buddhists ever, anywhere. Including Buddha himself", that would mean that Buddha was paranoid. Not what I was saying at all.
Well, you can't get rid of the world's delusions; but you can work on your own. And, in fact, that is the key...you'll never totally get rid of your own delusions...but you're a work in progress. Work on individual delusions, improve the situation, but realize other delusions will pop up, as well.
Persecution and paranoia are tough ones. Maybe a person with really challenging delusions needs some psychological assistance beyond or along with Buddhist mindful thinking. Dealing with real persecution is a tough one, too. Some are based on societal values (or lack thereof), and we now the struggle of Blacks (for example) in fighting persecution here in the States over our history. Then there's the more individual persecution such as bullying in school. There usually is help available for most persecutions (it seems to me), but the persecuted (e.g., the bullied) are often afraid to reach out for help because they feel it will make things worse. I think this is a case of realizing that along with mindfulness, one does have to take some action, and often that action is seeking help.
God, who here would be a good Buddhist if being to some degree delusional, precluded being a good Buddhist?
Some delusions we just want to see through and not dispel completely.
Then they can be tools... Like duality for example.
Does that mean you believe Buddha had delusions? If he had any, I have never seen them mentioned.
But then he was not a true Buddhist then. So I admit he had delusions but by becoming a good Buddhist, he let go of all attachment.
So I will qualify the above statement. After he became aware, I had never seen any delusions mentioned.
I am not offering this as a topic to argue over. I truly want to know how does Buddhism address paranoia or narcissism? Does being narcissistic mean you will never become aware so long as you display these tendencies?
I don't think Buddhism addresses every condition that can confront mankind. Instead, through meditation, focused thinking, the Noble Eightfold Path, and other Buddhist teachings you are given the tools to chip away at problems.
But it is not a -- if you do X, then narcissism will disappear type of self-help program. It is a continuing struggle...a work in progress.
Doing a little research, Ajahn Brahm states that one can only be free of delusion if they are celibate:
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Conditioned_Reality_by_Ajahn_Brahm
He also states in the article, that one can temporarily be free of our conditioning in states of Jhana.
That sounds fairly prescriptive to me.
The Buddha sat down under a tree to find the ultimate truth in one direction. That is where he discovered the middle way.
So, you have to ask yourself, do I want to be celibate in order to _____.
I doubt that every "good Buddhist" would agree with Brahm on that, BTW.
Your idea that no true Buddhist could be delusional is NOT true, because of simple logic (this is good news btw, not me criticizing you personally). It is bizarre and untruthful, obviously so, that the Buddha himself was 'not truly Buddhist' before he became Awake. There's no truth or substance or anything remotely helpful in this line of thinking.
The Buddha was a man with a goal before he became the Buddha. He was as 'buddhist' as one could possibly be, because he sought and achieved enlightenment.
AND, he was as deluded as the rest of us up until his Awakening occurred
.
Delusion is the resting state of the being until delusion is released, conquered or whatever by perceiving truthful perception (enlightenment). We are all delusional and SUPERB Buddhists because we have the goal, however remote, of realizing our awakening. You are FINE, and will be cloaked in delusion until that happy day you come Awake permanently. You and everyONE else
. Hope that helps.
To me if you want something to measure the quality of an individuals Buddhist "credentials" the measure is more about their desire to follow the path rather than the level of their achievements. Though even trying to use some standard at all to qualify who is and who is not a "good" Buddhist misses the point.
I think you have BuddhisT and BuddhA mixed up. The latter has no delusions but the former is definitively working on existent (can a Buddhist use that word lol) delusions.
Just enjoy the delusional aspect of being buddhist - will you still love me!
I know
you will
will you still love me
Even when I'm no longer beautiful!
LOL
You can be almost anything and Buddhist.
The whole idea of the Buddhist Path, cessation of suffering, entails striving to get rid of certain delusions, namely, as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it: "the delusions of seeing permanence in the impermanent, of seeing satisfaction in the unsatisfactory, and of seeing a self in the selfless. Thus we take ourselves and our world to be solid, stable, enduring entities, despite the ubiquitous reminders that everthing is subject to change and destruction. We assume we have an innate right to pleasure, and direct our efforts to increasing and intensifying our enjoyment with an anticipatory fervour undaunted by repeated encounters with pain, disappointment, and frustration. And we perceive ourselves as self-contained egos, clinging to the various ideas and images we form of ourselves as the irrefragable truth of our identity."
Being delusional in the sense of suffering from persecution hallucinations enters within the realm of the pathological, beyond the scope of Buddhism.
Professional help would be required in those cases.
It is very important to remember that we forget as much, if not more, than we remember at any one time, and that is why we remain in a state of ignorance!
Illusion tends to lead to delusion unless we catch ourselves in the illusion; however, to remain in illusion or indeed to be in a deluded state is not a satisfactory state! hence you are here! So just know your self! Happy?
IMNSHO - anyone can be a Buddhist. We just have to stop restricting ourselves by overthinking it.
By convention one is a Buddhist by taking the 3 refuges. A "good" Buddhist is one who also keeps the 5 or more precepts.
As long as one has not seen through the veil of delusion ie. opening the eye of Dhamma there is still some way to go. Even after seeing through, the defilements still cloud the eye. Only the Buddha and the arahants can be said to be totally free from delusion.
:om: .
How many people hear that and move right along? Part of the 'delusional Buddhist/human syndrome' is in not integrating wisdom when it is expressed with such clarity.
People 'look for themselves' or feel they are nearing or existing in some 'perfected enlightenment'. Much kinder than the futility of clinging to life, liberty and the pursuit of emptiness?
Give it all up. To the Buddha as an offering if you prefer. Then what? You have a taste of Nothing . . . and it is undying, perfect [insert all that Buddhist stuff] . . .
You are still in samsara/delusion but what will you cling to and what will such freedom from its dreams inspire and enable? That really is our choosing . . .
@DhammaDragon quote may seem stark, dark and hopeless? Delusion.
It is the basis of compassion for ourselves and others.
It is why we laugh, smile at the very nature of the dream, the nightmare or the present transitory arisings and change.
Thanks for the reminder. Outside it is raining. Just so. Wonderful.
People are sometimes so full of ideas, notions, concepts, goals, big words...
"I want Enlightenment" is to me like the biggest trap... or the biggest delusion.
The Path would be so easy if only we emptied our head of so much verbosity and simply sat back and enjoyed the ride a bit more.
Enlightenment=no delusions. I (and I imagine most) have a ways to go. Buddhism is about the journey, not just arriving there.
By delusions do you mean a mental illness like schizophrenia? You can have problems and practice Buddhism (I prefer that term rather than "be a Buddhist") but mental illness gets in the way of just about anything, including practicing Buddhism.
But if you're talking about the normal fuzzy thinking that humanity is prone to, then according to Zen Buddhism we're all deluded to some degree, it's only a matter of how much.
I believe we all are deluded to some degree. To become that product of your delusions, weather they be severe as in schizophrenia or mild as in judgemental, we can choose to react differently. Even people with schizophrenia have free choice when they choose to behave one way over the other. They may not feel they do but their lives suggest something else.
I should hope so! If it weren't for delusions, there would be no point in practicing Buddhism to begin with. Buddhism is only useful for people with delusions. A being with no delusions doesn't even need Buddhism!
Which is along the lines of "after the river is crossed, discard the raft" type of thing.
The only people who need a raft are the ones who have not yet crossed the river.
Can you be delusional and Buddhist too?
Yes...and I'm the living proof . .
...
@AllbuddhaBound, I'm afraid I'd have to disagree that a person who is in the depths of Schizophrenia has a choice over there actions they very much believe that their delusions are reality. Its a small number of Schizophrenics who retain enough insight to know they are unwell. I'm one of them, I know most of the time when I'm unwell but during my last couple of episodes of psychosis even my hard won insight was put to the test.
@AllbuddhaBound
I am thinking that those most delusioned and who are seeking to follow the path will experience a greater and better deserved success at each step, gradually replacing delusion with confidence to embrace reality and move forwards in the search?
"The whole aim of the Buddhist teaching is to develop the reflective mind in order to let go of delusions"
(Ajahn Sumedho)
The party-pooper quote...
:rolleyes: ..
In this clip, Jack Kornfield discusses the roots of Buddhist Psychology and how he, as a former monk and presently Buddhist Psychologist views delusion.
http://www.diydharma.org/part-06-non-delusion-jack-kornfield
Around the 20 minute mark, he talks about how we fight with reality hoping to overcome it. He later mentioned that the Buddha was not concerned that people would not accept his teaching because they couldn't understand it, but because it was so simple, they would not believe it.
You're half-right.-;) -
I think it is possible since Buddhism is a path and not the destination. On the path, delusions are possible, if not inevitable. Even an enlightened person could succumb to this once in a while.
There are whole rafts of dharma that are just cultural delusions, superstitious attachments and historical ignorance. We are given as @vinlyn says tools and key focusses that support us on our journey to the far shore. Some Buddhists are burning the raft, making it into furniture or carving it into decorative fancies.
Fortunately we have a potential solid base, people who are motivated to start, engage in and complete the journey.
It is up to us to find, maintain and complete the journey. Not everyone wants or is capable of that. Rather they wish to replace one delusion with another. Reality or the cessation of Dukkha never was their goal.
. . . the core teachings and meditational tools are very straightforward. :hiding: .
No persecution is real unless you make it real. There is no self to persecute. There are only others committing to actions that are self defeating and destructive to themselves and those around them.
You can't be called delusional if you do not act upon sensual distractions. But you can always be a __________ Buddhist. Just fill in the blank.
>
Not according to the strict definition, I don't think, no.
@AllbuddhaBound: I don't quite see what you had in mind when you initiated the thread.
Did you mean the delusions stemming from some kind of schizoid pathology, or your average, common-or-garden delusion?
Those that stem from our sight being limited by our own idea of the world, or the rosy illusions we invent to keep us going?
One of my friends is bipolar.
When she had a breakout, she was convinced the world was coming to an end.
She had visions of birds and animals, and heard voices.
No way she had any control whatsoever over her persecutions.
I am schizoeffective disorder, but I feel I do not have any delusions. I take a lot of medicine though and that doesn't always feel good to say the least. Before going on so much medicine I had a LOT of delusions.
@Dhammadragon - The thing I wanted to consider was about our insistence on clinging to delusions. In the strictest sense, most people who live a secular life can be considered to be clinging to delusions. The lifestyle we lead, our indulgences, the sex we have, our standing in community, our beliefs about what is right and wrong, our paranoias and personality disorders are considerably different than the experiences of those that live in a monastery. Most of us dabble. Who is willing to live an austere and simple life of a monk? And if you don't go for the full life, doesn't that make a person a half-assed Buddhist? I admit it, I am a half-assed Buddhist. If I really wanted to be an all out Buddhist, my life would be very different. I like holding onto delusions far too much to be anything else.
I think Allbuddha that even if we were a monk we might not think we are good enough. Pema Chodron says to be honest with ourself, but also gentle.
When you say "I am schizpeffective disorder", that is a delusion. The term schizoeffective disorder may describe some of your experiences but not who you are. That is one of my major complaints about the medical model of psychoanalysis. It involves labelling and people incorporate the labels as part of their identity.
There is a funny video about the role we view delusional disorders such as schizophrenia that is really good for a laugh.
Now who is delusional? LOL
I also like to say it is a genetic illness that I have rather than 'am'.
Believe me Jeffrey, I did not mean any slight when I responded like that. You are much more than a diagnosis.
Do you mean she did not have control of persecuting others or she did not have control of her delusions?
But going down this street would lead the thread off-topic
Somehow I feel like you didn't even answer my question...?