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People wonder why I get offended at sexist comments (except @Chaz, he doesn't care)

federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
edited January 2015 in General Banter

I get pilloried on other forums, for pointing out sexist comments. I bridle, instinctively, at the blatant, mindless and thoughtless rudeness so prevalent in society, which - say what you like - is dominantly patriarchal. I get told I'm overblowing things. I get told I'm seeing things, where things ain't. I get told I'm too sensitive, anal, and I exaggerate the situation.

Ok then. These are the songs our young children are listening to.
Now tell me what the hell you want, but don't tell me they're not being fed crap.
For the greater part, they're using the immensely popular mediums of music and image to convey the fact that women are there for one thing, and one thing only.

KundoHamsakaVanilliRowan1980LincanatamanJeongjwaReborn
«13456710

Comments

  • RodrigoRodrigo São Paulo, Brazil Veteran

    Indeed, these are awful lyrics. You are right to feel the way you do. However, to point these things to people that don't want to hear them (as you do in other forums) is really beneficial? I imagine they will probably just shut you out and become even more defensive and attached to their ideas. Aren't you fighting fire with fire?

    silverSarahTReborn
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No, fortunately, I form part of a discussion, I don't usually start them. And fortunately (again) I am not a lone voice, either.
    This is the first time I have aired this link. My comments elsewhere related to other subjects associated with sexism.
    And like you, many supporters have actually been male.
    One particularly vocal critic of constant and prevalent sexism here, is a guy named @Jason. I could even truthfully say it was he who really brought such closet matters to my attention, and made me aware as to how prevalent this is, in the name of humour or entertainment.
    Lastly, on such matters, although I try very hard to be careful and responsible with my words and not resort to petty remarks, insults or condescension, I really don't care whether people WANT to hear them or not. I have the right to express my opinion, as a woman, as to how bad I find such matters to be.

    RodrigoBunksRowan1980Reborn
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    So impressed by a 15 year old boy on the radio last weekend who, when his Mum refused to allow him to have Grand Theft Auto V in the house, refused to go to Mass with her on Sundays!

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ipm/ipm_20141213-1759a.mp3

    Toraldris
  • RhodianRhodian Loser Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @Federica I see I am sorry, didin't want to lead the focus elsewhere, for me sexism is part of a lack of morals. And part of a bigger 'thing.' As for sexism... Which would you put the focus on? There is the make me a sandwich jokes, there's females being portrayed as beings of desire, there is wage difference, I think it's quite a broad subject...

    My thoughts on me as I was a young male is this:

    Males got a lot of energy as kids they want to play fight they want to wrestle they want to do all that, wanna know how I grew up? I went to play-fight and boom detention, I couldn't sit still long, boom detentions.

    Children with ADHD is more prevalent in boys than girls, with the ratio estimated at anywhere from 4:1 to 9:1. (The ratio may shift as we come to learn more about how the specific manifestations of ADHD differ between boys and girls.)

    Most of the boys probably have no ADHD but they are expected to behave like young girls do, but boys socialise in a different way they need to get rid of they're energy, they go around rushing trough the place at PE. There are girls that really enjoy PE and like to run but mostly you see some guys running and some girls walking meters and meters behind.

    Though I do not know which part of sexism you would want to tackle girls are doing better and better at acedemic levels while boys fall behind they can't cope well with sitting still all day.

    If your talking about the side of offensive jokes, or looking down on females. Surely males do not get this kind of verbal abuse a lot though males with a depression often are ashamed to talk about it or seek help, also males of domestic violence which does happen from time to time. Verbal abuse however well I never heard a female say 'fix me my car, or you belong behind the workbench.'

    Though I do not think society will change a lot over time and ban sexism out. It's like racism differences create conflicts.

    silver
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Rhodian said:
    Federica I see I am sorry, didin't want to lead the focus elsewhere, for me sexism is part of a lack of morals. And part of a bigger 'thing.' As for sexism... Which would you put the focus on? There is the make me a sandwich jokes, there's females being portrayed as beings of desire, there is wage difference, I think it's quite a broad subject...

    Yup, all of that, for starters...

    My thoughts on me as I was a young male is this:

    Males got a lot of energy as kids they want to play fight they want to wrestle they want to do all that, wanna know how I grew up? I went to play-fight and boom detention, I couldn't sit still long, boom detentions.

    Children with ADHD is more prevalent in boys than girls, with the ratio estimated at anywhere from 4:1 to 9:1. (The ratio may shift as we come to learn more about how the specific manifestations of ADHD differ between boys and girls.)

    Most of the boys probably have no ADHD but they are expected to behave like young girls do, but boys socialise in a different way they need to get rid of they're energy, they go around rushing trough the place at PE. There are girls that really enjoy PE and like to run but mostly you see some guys running and some girls walking meters and meters behind.

    I'm sorry, I really don't understand the relevance of this, with regard to the constant blatant sexism agaisnt women in our so-called advanced 21st century society....

    Though I do not know which part of sexism you would want to tackle girls are doing better and better at acedemic levels while boys fall behind they can't cope well with sitting still all day.

    They may be doing better academically in SOME sectors, but in others they are miles behind. And let's not talk about the disparity in salaries, and the fact that even if both people of a couple are working, the woman still does 85% of the household chores...

    If your talking about the side of offensive jokes, or looking down on females. Surely males do not get this kind of verbal abuse a lot though males with a depression often are ashamed to talk about it or seek help, also males of domestic violence which does happen from time to time. Verbal abuse however well I never heard a female say 'fix me my car, or you belong behind the workbench.'

    Again, depression is a different issue, and females also suffer from depression, so that's not the issue here.
    Domestic violence? While I COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY AGREE that domestic violence also occurrs against men, again, that is a different issue. We are talking about social prejudices and sexism specifically against women.

    you bring up many good points but they are not relevant to this specific topic....

    Though I do not think society will change a lot over time and ban sexism out. It's like racism differences create conflicts.

    >

    The difference between racism and sexism is that first of all, racism is a highly sensitive issue, and many people are fearful of political correctness, and secondly, sexism knows no cultural or racial boundaries. it's prevalent in any and every strata of society, and always has been.

    LincReborn
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited December 2014

    I watched Disney's Frozen for the first time this weekend with my niece. I was surprised to see that the main characters were two sisters and the trouble one of them was facing wasn't related to romance with a man.

    The other thing that made me happy that my niece liked the movie was:
    that the younger sister needed an act of true love to save her life. The movie played it up like she needed the kiss of one of the two men that might have loved her, but in the end the act of true love that saved her was her of her own making by sacrificing herself to save her sister.

    I guess it still is a Disney kids film but from my perspective it is miles beyond movies like Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty where the main goal for the woman is to be saved by the handsome prince.

    ToraldrisVanilliJeffreyLinc
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I haven't seen it. I normally avoid Disney like the plague, but there are so many people raving about this, I reckon I'll have to give it a go....

  • RhodianRhodian Loser Veteran
    edited December 2014
    @federica‌ It might be my bad understanding of English but when you say my input is not relevant to the topic I would like you to set apart what sexism means for you? Is it salaries is it jokes is it stereotypes? Is it society and conditioning. I looked for the definition of sexism which was a page with so many subjects that I am quite sure that points I used are relevant in that topic. So I wonder what part of sexism is it that you want to discuss? Now you did post that post above here I get an idea.

    To come back to my example is boys are conditioned to live in a school system that is better for girls, the boys cannot get rid of energy go home and parents cannot hande them being al out of control because they had to sit still all day. They then get ADHD labels more often while it does not have to ADHD on target.

    Now going towards where you want to go, it does depend a lot. But I do not think it is true you can't find a good man of you don't show of your body. I myself met a woman on the train that I talked with a bit in a friendly way non assaulting of course she was dressed very uhm uptight? A sweater and such, but I really liked her calm expression and she was fun to talk with. Now if it was a woman in a mini cocktail-dress I wouldn't even have talked to her perhaps, because I would feel uneasy to do so in a train at midnight. (so as a guy you do not have to reason is it alright to wear this, but you might think as a guy can I at this time talk to a girl that wears this and that or will I come across like a pervert/sexual predator with ill means if I do so?)

    I do also think that a big problem is that sex is regarded as an commodity. Some sort of monopoly money, let's have sex and be happy. I know a girl that has open relationships surely when that burns out the guy is angry he can't have sex anymore so he resorts to calling her stuff. However I have a friend great guy, very insecure he fell in love with a girl, the girl however had a boyfriend. The boyfriend was religious and once upon a time the girl went drinking and the guy didn't like that and she broke up with him, she started sending my friend pictures of her ex and said 'he looks like a monkey' and stuff like that. My friend and I laughd about it, because she did love him after all and chose him over my friend. Now my friend is together with her, but yeah.. It swings two ways? When we cannot get what we want or we lose something we had or took for granted we get angry as human beings. If I had a woman and she would walk out and I got attached to her, I'd be sad or angry, though for a guy it makes a big difference if he loves a female with his heart or his ....

    I do understand it is hard, if you have a erect nipple and someone calls you a slut. But people that do not like me and see me walking weird because of my rheumatism might call me names, if I end up in a wheelchair for long walks and I can still get out of the wheelchair and walk because my legs are not lame people might say I am a lieing bastard. When people do not like you, they always judge you negatively.

    I think females need to be more united, guys when a guy has sex with 20 females, he's a hero. All the guys cheer him on and say awesome. I do not know if females cheer each other on when they can get 20 guys in the bed. Other girls might even say she's a slut. I think that is a big problem at hand that guys also have.

    In school I got a first aid help course you could get it and figured I'd get it, you'd also learn how to reanimate people with heart attacks and such, one guy just walked to me and said I was a dirty faggot for doing such a thing. Bandages and nursery is for girls he said, well a year or two later I saw him at a hairdresser in town cutting hairs. Checked his facebook there he was with his boyfriend... He was insecure himself probably and took this out on me. Guys are also insecure many times, I mean if I want sex as a guy I have to work a lot harder for it than a woman would. There's many guys that want to and are needy, as a female you walk in flaunt your stuff and a guy will always go with you.

    I think many males do have insecurity, and anger. I do not know if there is a difference in libido for men and females but I believe that of men is higher, and that men have a harder time getting to the point in which a female wants to have sex. They have to date they have to go trough this and trough that. They get frustrated they just want sex they do not want to say nice words etc, they wanna explore as much as they can and settle down after. This does not apply to all men though, but I live in the Netherlands and going to Amsterdam you can see many people do really offer the money to have a quickie. 50 euro's is quite a lot for 20 minutes, but even handsome guys that could get a girl in they're bed sometimes go there.

    So I think you have to look at the reasons why they do it. When I on a forum take a stance of anti sexism they say I am a white knight and am trying to get in her pants like that, this defensive behavior that goes hand in hand with agression and frustration says enough to me. So when you say it to them of course they tell you, your seeing things.

    Of course I am still young so I am speaking of experiences around me in my young generation older generations might have different experiences.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    Viciousness has absolutely no excuse. It is an affront to all of human society. Period.

    Of course, not all sexism is vicious, it is ofttimes subtle. But sometimes being narrowly politically correct is also vicious. It just makes no sense to me why people would wantonly go about angering others accusing, demanding, and complaining.

    Wisdom is to choose one's battles carefully for the ones that really amount to something. If one chooses to be a crusader for something, though, I think it needs to be taken to a higher level. Totalitarianism never solved anything, and political correctness at all times and in all places is something IMO that only politicians should have to worry about.

    A narrow-minded, politically correct standard held foremost in the mind is in danger of seeing things in other people that simply are not there. And once these hostilities erupt --for they are hostilities-- it is not unlikely that things will never return to their former harmony.

    Isms are one thing, intolerance quite another.

    Rhodian
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Intolerance of 'Isms' though, is perfectly acceptable, providing the motivation holds and contains compassion.
    Most 'Isms' are generated by ignorance, fear and/or the desire to Control.
    It's cutting through those that is the challenge.

    SarahTsilver
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited December 2014

    I'll grant you that, dear soul, "providing the motivation holds and [is constrained by] compassion." I guess I mean, so long as it is done gently, lovingly, without accusing, demanding, or complaining. These three things are not for the spiritual life at all. We must take into account that people come from different cultural traditions and there are ones in which gentle joking about the differences between the sexes is not intended to poke or have fun at the expense of another. INTENT is the key. CONTENT is often in the mind of the observer and that mind is capable of supplying a totally different Context if that's the way that particular mind has been "programmed."

    OOPS: I wrote the paragraph above thinking of the more subtle isms. I certainly don't think blatant proponents of selfish ideologies or perpetrators of ignoble deeds need to be handled gently and with cuddly love.

    In the South (SE USA) good manners is the cultural context through which everything is measured. Therefore, if a politically-correct excoriation is given, it's the particular excoriation (or scolding) that is seen as egregious. People are allowed to fail "High Ideals," but flunking the test of good manners is not "politically correct," as it were.

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    I already 'awesomed' quite a few posts and that's an expression of just how critically important this topic is.....I don't care if some go off on a tangent because it's all very much interrelated stuff that depends on one thing: attitudes.

    Attitudes may very well seem inborn, and it doesn't mean that they can't be altered, because ignorance can be fixed, but it seems a complicated task.

    I'll give you an example of what surely seems an innate slant on things:

    (True story): When my son was relatively young (guessing he was about 8 or 9), we went to a fast food restaurant and I dressed up from my usual pants/shirt attire, in a skirt and blouse complete with stockings (and make-up, which I usually did anyway), and when our food came, I asked him for a taste of his drink and he couldn't push it towards me fast enough. Any other time, in less glamorous attire, he would not be so generous. It was like a wow moment for me, to see just how my appearance made a difference in how he chose to treat dear old mom!

    It may seem like an unimportant anecdote, but I think this belies the attitude that makes things quite difficult for the female of the species.

  • @federica said:
    I haven't seen it. I normally avoid Disney like the plague, but there are so many people raving about this, I reckon I'll have to give it a go....

    Frozen is GREAT. It takes the mick of out the whole "swept off your feet by prince charming" thing and the female characters are the sole heroines in the end :). I will totally show it to my little niece when she is born. It solves everything that is wrong with the Disney mindset before Frozen came out. Definitely give it a watch :)! It's a great feminist film :)

    person
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @federica said:
    The text below is actually a post written by someone else, on another forum.
    It is in response to a (male) member's enquiry in a thread, which asks - and I quote:

    Do women REALLY not know when their breast or nipples are exposed?

    Of course, I do not know the context of this question but it appears, at face value, to be a simple request for information. Isn't the answer "no, not always"? I have various questions about men that I cannot, due to my gender, know the answer to without asking. Not sure how I would cope if I got such a diatribe if I asked an equivalent question ...

    Perhaps I am over-naive or have come from a very protected background. I worked in a very male world (construction/engineering back in the 90s) and was usually assumed at first meetings to be the secretary. But once this was corrected I was accepted without any problem and it didn't take long to earn respect - which I assume any newcomer to a group has to do. It was just unfamiliar to most of my clients to have a female lawyer. Yes, I did have hassles with one man who was going through a nasty divorce but I put it down to that rather than to culture. I know various woman who cannot deal with any men after a particularly unpleasant experience such as rape until trust is re-established. I guess the most sexist thing in my career experience was that my clients moderated their language in my presence. Plus I often got offers to help me carry stuff. But, frankly, I don't appreciate bad language so no complaints from me about the former and, as for the latter, once they discovered how heavy a pilot case with three lever arch files in it is, they usually didn't offer again!

    It is possible to protest too much ... just sayin'

    Rhodiansilver
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @Vanilli said:
    It's like in England, the middle classes and lower classes hate, resent and judge one another. People walk around blaming benefit scroungers for being lazy, when most people who claim benefits do so because they get paid a crap minimum wage and can't afford to clothe and feed their kids. People turn against other groups of people rather than challenging the systems and cultures that are really responsible for their problems.

    Not sure where I come on this one. Privately educated, home owner, qualified solicitor. But I have been a "benefits scrounger" for the last 11 years.

    Stereotypes, hey?

    VanilliHamsakaKundo
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I think, @Vanilli, that's a relatively sweeping generalisation, because I have been on Income support for far too long, and my H is also struggling to find work.... I now have a job, but to be frank with you, it earns me a pittance, and I can barely scrape through from week to week.

    I think the class resentment you mention is not as evident as other points of discord, but this is neither the time, nor the place and it is neither relevant nor appropriate to the thread....

  • VanilliVanilli Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @federica said:
    I think, Vanilli, that's a relatively sweeping generalisation, because I have been on Income support for far too long, and my H is also struggling to find work.... I now have a job, but to be frank with you, it earns me a pittance, and I can barely scrape through from week to week.

    I think the class resentment you mention is not as evident as other points of discord, but this is neither the time, nor the place and it is neither relevant nor appropriate to the thread....

    I was pointing out that is the stereotypical view, not the reality of the situation.

    I may not have worded it correctly, but what I am saying is that people turn against groups of people, when they should be addressing the cultural and political systems.
    They are not a victim of the other group but the cultural and political structures that create inequality, injustice etc. But if you do not think it's relevant, fair enough.

    Hamsaka
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @federica said:

    I think the class resentment you mention is not as evident as other points of discord, but this is neither the time, nor the place and it is neither relevant nor appropriate to the thread....

    I "get" that it is sexism that is particularly bugging you at the moment but, in my book, discrimination is discrimination - racist, sexist, ageist, sizeist, whatever. I reckon each and every part of reality - animal, mineral, vegetable, from the smallest particle via a galaxy to those dimensions we cannot even experience - is unique and therefore precious.

    Slightly concerned that I just listened to an old Ray Charles song my son grew up listening to:

    well
    I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah
    Say I got a woman way over town good to me oh yeah
    She give me money when Im in need
    Yeah she's a kind of friend indeed
    I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah

    She saves her lovin early in the morning just for me oh yeah
    She saves her lovin early in the morning just for me oh yeah
    She saves her lovin just for me oh she love me so tenderly
    I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah

    Sax Solo

    She's there to love me both day and night
    Never grumbles or fusses always treats me right
    Never runnin in the streets and leavin me alone
    ** She knows a womans place is right there now in her home**

    I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah
    Say I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah
    Oh she's my baby now don't you understand
    Yeah and I'm her lover man
    I got a woman way over town that's good to me oh yeah

    A Don't ya know she's alright
    A Don't ya know she's alright
    she's alright she's alright
    Whoa yeah oh yeah oh

    ** She knows a woman's place is right there now in her home**. Whoops! Hope I can comfort myself that he's the one who does the cooking whilst his girlfriend drives ... Plus I was the sole breadwinner whilst his Dad stayed home. Perhaps this helps him see how dated/inappropriate this is?

    RhodianVanilli
  • RhodianRhodian Loser Veteran
    edited December 2014

    I am heavily wondering about a thing or two.

    As you all recall communism came to be and such, the goal was to increase social order. However I wonder if it really worked? I do not think it did, why? People have problems inside themselves by changing society you do not change problems. (This is just an example)

    So the question now is, which is conditioning from society, and which problems occur in our nature?

    1 Conditioning
    Let me try to set an example, wearing dresses for guys was a very normal thing in ancient times. When I go out in a dress now like Romans or Greeks would wear, guys would call me a faggot this obviously is something that lives in these times. But could be talked about and solved, if people open up.

    2Nature
    However a problem guys feel from nature is that once a nice girls come they might start fighting or going all over the top to attract girls atention, this is a problem in the nature of the male.

    (These examples are quite bad maybe but can't think of better ones, and you'll get what I am getting at.)

    And human nature does not limit itself to male and female, we do share our human nature. Though the inner workings are a bit different.

    As for feminism, I do understand they want to make a point, but sometimes you can drag it to extremes, and it's hard for me to understand as a guy to... Do I open the door for my date or do I let her open the door? Do I take her jacket, or do I let her hang it up herself, do I pay the bill for the drinks or do I let her pay or do we split? For me it is just hazy and confusing, same wages etc I am all for that.... Heck I once had a date that clinged to me and wanted me to decide the whole date, decide in which atractions we go and in which we do not. Or wherever we would go...

    After all equal rights means you have to be equal and males and females are not the same. For example when a woman has given birth she gets in my country a couple of free months from work to rest and be with the kid, however? What about the dad? Well surely he did not give birth but a few months with the kids? Acceptable yes no? I am just saying the male and female work a bitter different so they should have equal rights as human beins. But male and females are working in different ways, this is why sport competition is split between female and male in a lot of sports. I do not think this is wrong and only is fair for females does not means I look down on females it just means I know a guy has a different body type. Or should females compete with males? I hope you understand what I am trying to say that equal rights are important, wages etc. But you will always have difference between female and male I will never be a female no matter how hard I will try with sheer willpower and good will.

    (operations excluded)

    Edit:
    So what I wanted to say is females should be respected by everyone. Though we should accept there are difference and see how we can get trough peacefully without being disrespectful but also with keeping our differences. Feminism I might be wrong but I get the feeling they are a bit agressive. And want to nulify our differences. Which might be a totally wrong feeling.... But I do not think in my life I ever disrespected a woman on purpose.

    SarahTJeffrey
  • @Rhodian‌

    We must be free to make mistakes... how else can we learn and evolve?

    As to Feminism Extremist; it is only "extreme" from where you are. That is the beauty of dating, figuring out if someone is a good match for you, or is too extreme in certain aspects for you.

    Do you want to open the door for her? then do it... if she doesn't like it, then great, you now have a subject for conversation that is helpful in getting to know each other. It's not about being what they want, it's about learning about who they are. I would rather learn earlier than later if we are not compatible.

    JeffreyVanilliReborn
  • BarraBarra soto zennie wandering in a cloud in beautiful, bucolic Victoria BC, on the wacky left coast of Canada Veteran

    @ Rhodian interesting that you bring up conditioning and use the example of clothing. One of the most represive "cultures" on earth today is the fundmentalist Muslim group. They require women to wear full body burkas - essentially confining them, hiding them, making it almost impossible for them to get jobs (esp. since they are also not allowed to drive). None of this has any source in their scripture - it is a recent "add on" which can only have one purpose - to separate the powerful from the oppressed. What makes me sad about this is that some women there have acquiesed to this and say that they like it (i.e. have become conditioned to it). But why do they like it? Because if they are exposed men on the street treat them like crap - staring and groping them. This difference was pointed out by a woman from that culture who walked down a street in North America and couldn't get over the "matter of fact" treatment that they got.

    silver
  • RhodianRhodian Loser Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @Telly03 If humans would learn from mistakes, there would be no more wars. Humans have been fighting wars probably forever. As for finding out, what if your date does not tell you or want to tell you. And she just will complain to her girlfriends about it, not the best kind of girl then maybe, but it's not so black and white.

    @Barra Actually kind of funny that I just read on the news, a woman for a christian program. (They go to the red light district and the program wil resolve around that.) But lol the woman that is going to present it had a picture with a small cleavage nothing big, but even that was to much and they photoshopped it away. Or they retook the picture, a lot of people have been asking on twitter and such what is up.

    As for the Arabians, did you also notice females have to wear black and the men are all in white, we both do know what both -they are technical not colors- colors mean. White means pure and black often means bad/darkness. Though I do not know much of Arabian culture and thus cannot relpy in great depth. It is very wrong to put a woman away like that and I am against that.

    All I am saying is the kind of feminists that want females and males to sport in same categories (in individual sports) are to extreme to my taste. However we in the Netherlands have a sport that is a teamsport with mixed males and females, and I think such things are fine and really give more depth to it in my opinion. I just think you will not banish sexism by either saying 'don't do it.' Or by breaking the differences between male and female. Sexism is a problem like racism, if you paint everyone white/black does the issue stop?

    silver
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @Rhodian I believe we have come a long way from the mentality of a couple thousand years ago... for example, slavery used to be accepted as the norm, as evident from Bible passages where God had an opportunity to condemn the practice, but instead gave directions on how to be a good slave, and we have an idea where women stood back then by witnessing the old customs still practiced in the Middle East, but we are much closer to equality in the rest of the modern world.

    Look at the progress we made in the last couple hundred years in the US towards slavery and equal rights, and hopefully we are still making progress.

    But yes, we still have the war thing to work on.

    And yes, a date may decide not communicate well with you, but again, she may, and would be encouraged by you putting forth the effort.

    silver
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @Rhodian said:
    it's hard for me to understand as a guy to... Do I open the door for my date or do I let her open the door?

    Tough one. When I went to uni, I was at a college that was then all female. I witnessed more than one male being punched - powerfully - when he opened the door for a resident! Just know I'm very happy to be female ... ;)

    Have always wondered why the tradition is for women to go first? Is it so that they get to face whatever danger there may be through that door? Seems odd when the male tends to be stronger/better armed (viz male clothing opening to allow access to weapons as against female clothing that tends not to even have pockets). Don't know.

    Can only suggest that you ask your date. Personally, I appreciate a bit of chivalry. We are all different and I like to discover and celebrate those differences.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2014

    I have a personal rule: At work, I'm "one of the guys".
    in a social environment a bit of chivalry goes a long way.
    Be gracious without being condescending.

    @SarahT‌ Letting ladies through a door first, has its origins in Western European etiquette, basically the rules of conduct in society.

    In a number of situations, it was (and largely still is!) deemed correct behaviour to give ladies precedence over gentlemen. This is for instance the case when serving food or drinks at a table: one servers the ladies, then the other guests, then the host.

    It is interesting to note that the common use of 'ladies first' actually often contradicts traditional etiquette:

    The phrase is often used to mean 'after you', but etiquette does not prescribe that ladies should always pass first through a door or other narrow passage. The idea is that the gentleman who accompanies the lady will only let her pass first when entering a trusted environment, such as his or her own home. When entering an unknown place, or when exiting a building, the man is to go first. The reasoning behind this is that if any danger lurks on the other side of the door, the strong man can defend the poor defenceless damsel.

    It is also traditionally considered bad form to invite a lady to "go first" when climbing stairs - a situation in which the gentlemen might indecently stare at certain parts of the female anatomy as she moves up and ahead of him...

    Telly03
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @federica said:
    etiquette does not prescribe that ladies should always pass first through a door or other narrow passage. The idea is that the gentleman who accompanies the lady will only let her pass first when entering a trusted environment, such as his or her own home. When entering an unknown place, or when exiting a building, the man is to go first. The reasoning behind this is that if any danger lurks on the other side of the door, the strong man can defend the poor defenceless damsel.

    It is also traditionally considered bad form to invite a lady to "go first" when climbing stairs - a situation in which the gentlemen might indecently stare at certain parts of the female anatomy as she moves up and ahead of him...

    Sounds as though I need to check up on my Debretts! ;) Thanks for putting me straight @federica. Did not know there were exceptions. Phew ... life is complicated :o

    Edit: do you know any "poor defenceless damsel"s?

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran
    I'm probably going to stir the pot a bit here but...

    There are a lot of problems in the world. Is trying to change something that offends you helpful? Isn't that directly clinging? Trying to change things to your personal idea of the right thing.

    All you end up doing is getting angry from things that you are projecting.

    Rather than try and change the world to your projection of how it should be.
    Rather find out who is the one who wants to change the world. Use it as meditation. It's all just an idea right? A concept.

    I'm not saying be a vegetable. By all means stand up for yourself. But campaigning on how bad our society is only makes us suffer right?
    Isn't freedom from suffering the goal?

    Sense object, then perception, then feeling arises, then volition arises. Then we suffer.

    Even if negative feelings arise, it's the belief in that that causes all the problems in the world.

    I'm not saying I'm perfect, in just doing my best not to attach to opinions. Either mine or somebody else's. Then even if they suffer due to their conditioning. I don't.

    With metta guys. :)
    RodrigoNirvanaReborn
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited December 2014

    I agree @Earthninja‌

    When I see "bad" things, I'm trying to label, "human nature to be racist" "human nature to push political bias or religious ideas" and move on as if I'm a witness to it, accept it as part of my experience as a human at this time.

    Influence by teaching when you have welcomed opportunities, but getting riled up is not accepting. "Accepting" does not mean you approve though, it's just recognizing the way things are at this moment.

    EarthninjaReborn
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran
    @SpinyNorman‌ nicely put, but as long as you don't get upset when it doesn't go with your projection at how society should be.

    Which is hard if you hope it will get better.



    We are so caught up with our opinions. They are all just conditioning. Maybe if we can see clearly then compassion arises.

    I feel it's only when we approach a situation from compassion should we interfere. Hard though right? I agree.

    We just have to try and be truly and fully aware of what we are doing. And why.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @Earthninja said:
    We just have to try and be truly and fully aware of what we are doing. And why.

    Yes, that was really my point. It's about being honest and being real.

    Earthninja
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2014

    I think to some extent, not everyone is getting what I mean, by my initial post.

    Racialism targets people of different nationalities/culture.

    Ageism targets those who are seen as incapable because of how old they are.

    Religious intolerance finds people from a specific religious group targeted and ostracised.

    ...But WITHIN each of those specific groups, women are further subjected to abuse, discrimination and hostility.

    And women - as a distinct and important proportion of the global population - are constantly the victims of abuse, hatred and hostility, largely at the hands of their male counterparts.

    To quote a book, (written incidentally, by a MALE author) "Never has such a huge proportion of the population been vilified and held to debasement, with such treatment of one gender being widely accepted, tolerated and put up with, throughout the millennia. This is an oppression that has been going on since time immemorial, and is still prevalent today."

    Jack Holland, "The World's Oldest Prejudice".

    (He also mentions the 'rap' culture I complained about in the link in my first post.)

    Just to to to clarify precisely what my point is.

    Incidentally, in spite of my recommending this book to many people, (mainly men) as interesting reading, I don't know of any single person who has actually followed my recommendation, and investigated it.

    I don't know how many times I have mentioned it here - must be at least a half-dozen, if not more.

    HAS anyone followed up on it?

  • In Queen of the Damned, by Anne Rice, the oldest vampire lady Akasha who had been asleep millenia and she wakes up. Vampires get more and more power as they age and she is so powerful that she starts killing all the males and leave only 1 for every 200 female. The other vampires are trying to figure out how to stop that plan of destruction. But Akasha's plan was to stop war and rape.

  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @Jeffrey - sounds an interesting basis for a book. Don't usually like vampire books but may make an exception. Is it necessary to read the first 2 volumes first?

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2015

    I would read the first two or watch. I think both were made into movies which decent to me but got bad reviews.

    Actually I take that back. You could probably find online materials about what is happening in the books in order to prepare you for the third. I think if you don't review the first two you will miss a lot. But it would still be enjoyable even if you don't.

    There is a movie of Queen of the Damned put out in 2002 but I have not seen it.

    FROM THE TRAILER THE MOVIE LOOKS HORRIBLE all action and no text to understand the world of the book and so forth.

  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    Thanks @Jeffrey! What a prompt reply :) Always prefer books to films and so cheap second hand so will welcome my 2015 with readings of vampires ;)>:):open_mouth:

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Jeffrey said:
    In Queen of the Damned, by Anne Rice, the oldest vampire lady Akasha who had been asleep millenia and she wakes up. ..... she starts killing all the males and leave only 1 for every 200 female. .... But Akasha's plan was to stop war and rape.

    >

    I presume her plan backfires.....?
    As it should....

  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @federica - hope you didn't think I was sidetracking your thread. Will report back on whether she succeeds or whether Ms Rice comes up with any better ideas.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I would hope her plan was a dysmal failure.
    Because she created an imbalance.
    There are many warmongering, hostile and indecent women too...

    What I personally strive for is a world where such inequality is a figment of the imagination.

    Look at the thread begun by @Vastmind.
    2 responses, both female.

    Make of that what you will.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    More now.... But it's the kind of brainless Prejudice I'm on about.
    "If they are women, we subjugate them, simply because of their gender."

  • RhodianRhodian Loser Veteran
    edited January 2015

    Well I was just on the youtube, watching some yoga video's and uhm there was one video by a lady I do not know her some famous face in some branch of yoga I do not frequent. However the comments are quite foul.

    The lady wears a uhm very short short... Does that make sense? Anyway in some poses yes she does have skimpy shorts but the comments are very foul. I do not know what guys want to achieve by posting like that. However I also notice a lot of guys actually telling the complainers to shut up and go away. However those just want to look at uhm short shorts.... Life's complicated. But if they really did yoga they would realise how clothes hinder yoga, I sometimes do yoga naked or in underpants, of course home practice! Also I like meditating without pants... So I can understand actually why said woman in youtube video does so to... But the comments turn out in 'she's a whore that enjoys rape' Or 'I want to uhm do stuff to you,' or 'She's a good business girl using her body as a marketing thing.' Though to be honest I think it's just internet trolling and frustrated boys that didn't have a date with christmas.

    If your curious I broke down the link. You have to past the d2j5etc... Behind the =

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= d2j5kjoXDB8

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @federica said:
    Now tell me what the hell you want, but don't tell me they're not being fed crap.
    For the greater part, they're using the immensely popular mediums of music and image to convey the fact that women are there for one thing, and one thing only.

    It's always good to raise awareness of these issues, but what do want us to actually do?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Be more mindful; more aware; more alert to insinuated sexism, the hidden, covert ways in which it's seen as socially acceptable to define women in a lesser role, things that objectify women...

    Fo example.
    A really good buddy on mine posted a video of a fat lady, about to dive in a pool. The minute she hit the water, the picture changed to an atomic explosion occuring in an ocean somewhere....you can imagine how high the water went. Well, I posted THIS comment:

    I wish I could say that was funny, but taking the piss out of fat women really isn't. They just love being the butt of jokes for other people to laugh at. Oh yeah, no really, they do. It is indeed, a fat woman's aim in life to be there for other people to make fun of. Please, carry on.

    >

    The video stayed, but no further comments were posted.
    I'm still buddies with the guy in question, but funnily enough, he hasn't posted any further crap like that. And in a PM, he sent me, he merely said, "I'm sorry, Fede. :( "

    That's what I'd love you to do.

    Whether you do it or not, is entirely up to you. :)

    silverlobster
  • @federica, yes Akasha doesn't win. And she has a rational discussion with the remaining ancient vampires(she killed all the fledglings vamps) That was my favorite part because I was somewhat compelled by Akashas brutal plan. The other ancient or old (2 hundred to 6000 years) vampires gave her arguments against her plan and it was interesting because the rebuttals fit the speakers character sketch. But of course it has to have a happy ending so not much of a spoiler. The series is really good. Probably one of the top 10 series I have read and I used to read a ton before the internet!

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @federica said:
    Be more mindful; more aware; more alert to insinuated sexism, the hidden, covert ways in which it's seen as socially acceptable to define women in a lesser role, things that objectify women...

    OK. I have some gay friends who've been victimised a lot over the years, so homophobia is one of my "causes", more generally any discrimination based on somebody's sexuality, including religious homophobia which I find particularly distasteful.
    Being Irish I've been subject to racism in the past, so I'm aware of that too. A while back somebody told an Irish joke and I did remind them that I'm Irish and they got the point. I suspect the best approach to these issues is probably a personal one, noticing day to day examples and saying something, rather than letting it pass. It does have an effect.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I have to say (and as I have already mentioned) one person who really brought my attention to this factor, is @Jason. He posted an article some time ago on FB I think, which gave a woman's perspective of the discriminating, prejudicial or simply downright thoughtless sexist gamut of experiences she goes through periodically, regularly.
    It was actually an eye-opener for me. It hadn't actually hit me just how persistent and prevalent such attitudes are. Which tells me one thing: We have become so used to it, we're totally inured to it, and don't realise just how widespread it is.
    We're quick (as you correctly point out) to recognise racial stereotyping, and I'm completely with you on homophobia.
    But just as that is your 'cause' (or one of them) perhaps then, you will understand just how strongly I feel about this.

    Your approach is pretty spot-on.
    As I pointed out (above) with regard to the joke being made against the overweight woman diving, it's amazing how a few well-placed words can affect the situation.
    It doesn't even have to be done in a rude, retaliatory confrontational way.
    A mere, "I'm sorry, but I find that quite offensive" can bring the discussion to a halt or new direction....

    silverlobsteranataman
This discussion has been closed.